Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
(OP)
I would like some input on the following issue.
I have a two story 190'x43' or so steel building. The roof is framed with bar joists with steel spandrels and columns and the floor is composite steel beams and girders with steel WF and tube columns. The lateral system is a steel OMRF at the roof and cip ordinary reinforced shearwalls from the floor to ground.
Our notes and specifications both call for steel shop drawings. The owner's lowest bid fabricator, who is also the erector, is going to fabricate the pieces without any shop drawings.
I wrote a pretty stern letter to the Owner stating:
1. the drawings represent our professional opinion: a directive not a suggestion
2. it is standard industry practice to do shops for such a structure
3. I may not have time to drop all other projects to deal with field fixes when these pieces are hanging from a crane
4. I do not see how a welder could make the pieces without having a detailed piece drawing in front of him
4. there are many prescribed Special Inspection requirements that need to be met in the shop and the field
Basically, I was overruled by the Owner and received a nasty letter from them with the following adjectives: arrogant, condescending, ridiculous, unwilling, unprofessional, etc... How fun.
The drawings represent the final product and how the contractor gets there is definitely a "means and methods" issue. On the flip side, I have never heard of trying to do such a project without steel shops. Another local fabricator (whose bid was higher) said they would not try such a thing. Every structural engineer I have talked to said that's crazy to do this without shops.
As an example, the fabricator's column erection scheme is to field weld the column to the base plate. I asked him how does one plumb the column as I think the weld shrinkage upon cooling will pull the column out of plumb. He said that's no problem with a 12' level on the column... There is a reason the rest of the world uses shim and grout or double nuts and grout to plumb a column.
The only "stick" I have left is the Chapter 17 Special Inspection stuff. This is law. Writing a response to an Owner's letter like that is most likely a waste of time: their opinion is formulated.
Any opinions and/or sage advice would be greatly appreciated.
I have a two story 190'x43' or so steel building. The roof is framed with bar joists with steel spandrels and columns and the floor is composite steel beams and girders with steel WF and tube columns. The lateral system is a steel OMRF at the roof and cip ordinary reinforced shearwalls from the floor to ground.
Our notes and specifications both call for steel shop drawings. The owner's lowest bid fabricator, who is also the erector, is going to fabricate the pieces without any shop drawings.
I wrote a pretty stern letter to the Owner stating:
1. the drawings represent our professional opinion: a directive not a suggestion
2. it is standard industry practice to do shops for such a structure
3. I may not have time to drop all other projects to deal with field fixes when these pieces are hanging from a crane
4. I do not see how a welder could make the pieces without having a detailed piece drawing in front of him
4. there are many prescribed Special Inspection requirements that need to be met in the shop and the field
Basically, I was overruled by the Owner and received a nasty letter from them with the following adjectives: arrogant, condescending, ridiculous, unwilling, unprofessional, etc... How fun.
The drawings represent the final product and how the contractor gets there is definitely a "means and methods" issue. On the flip side, I have never heard of trying to do such a project without steel shops. Another local fabricator (whose bid was higher) said they would not try such a thing. Every structural engineer I have talked to said that's crazy to do this without shops.
As an example, the fabricator's column erection scheme is to field weld the column to the base plate. I asked him how does one plumb the column as I think the weld shrinkage upon cooling will pull the column out of plumb. He said that's no problem with a 12' level on the column... There is a reason the rest of the world uses shim and grout or double nuts and grout to plumb a column.
The only "stick" I have left is the Chapter 17 Special Inspection stuff. This is law. Writing a response to an Owner's letter like that is most likely a waste of time: their opinion is formulated.
Any opinions and/or sage advice would be greatly appreciated.






RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
If there is a possibility of numerous problems with field fixes, do you know of another engineering firm that can handle that aspect of it, possibly hired and directly paid by the owner?
If there are problems with the field erection stuff, do you have a strong building department that will back you up on decisions?
Notify your E&O agent now and get them involved with legal advice. Mine provides this as part of the insurance - initially at no cost.
We've had some very bad problems in the past with steel fabricator's upsurping the design engineers decisions. One client eventually went belly up and another had to take the steel back to his yard and do major modifications because of the screw ups.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
It sounds to me like your done with this client anyway. I'd go all out to protect myself. Get whatever legal help you need.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
I can see the Owner possibly setting you up to take the fall for any contractor's misintepretations of your drawings. That is why there is a review of shop drawings, to prevent those errors from occuring.
You might want to talk with your insurance agent on the best approach to take.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Having shop drawings can also be a liability...
Dik
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
For liability reasons, I think that I will have to write yet another letter expounding upon some of the concepts you guys have brought up.
It will be a CYA antagonist construction process the whole way out now: this is a drain at a number of levels.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
I have a similar situation, and I have told the building department inspectors this. They have in turn stated that they will not issue a certificate of occupancy. Eventually I expect that shop drawings will show up.
Of course the building is built, but there are connection issues that will be disputed, and may require rework
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
The main thing that stands out to me is if you have any issues such as connection details or weld details or bolt sizes that are not called out on your drawings.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Ask yourself.. Do you really want to buy a building you won't own after you pay for it? That's what this is looking like.
Shop Drawings are the last chance for a trained eye to make sure the structure will perform as intended; but devil's advocate in me says that the owner is well on his way to making sure that he's not going to pay for his building, or at least all of it.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Is this project possibly not your regular line of work (IE, an industry you normally serve)? I ask because in the past, I have noticed that different industries have different expectations regarding how work is done. The owner may perceive you as using nuclear engineering requirements on a farm building.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
The questions I have are as follows:
1. Does the jurisdiction have any additional regulations beyond what is stated in the IBC that addresses the need for shop drawings? My thinking here is that IBC Sec 2205.1 directs us to the appropriate AISC Spec; and if you are using ASD, Section M1 of the AISC 335 does require shop drawings.
2. Is there any jurisdictional regulation that does not permit ALL welding fabrication to be done in the field by an erector who is not an approved fabricator? I do not know of any provision in the IBC that precludes it. Nevertheless, I know of many jurisdictions that have regulations that would not permit it. In fact, the increased costs associated with additional special inspection (IBC Table 1704.3..quite a bit in here) for field fabrication should make the use of an approved fabricator a wise choice. Have you talked with the folks in the building department about this?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
I bought up all the special inspection issues to the Owner, but I'll need to point this out to the building department as well. They may not be aware of all the Chapter 17 stuff, but I expect that they will back me up. I did not know that steel shops were prescribed in AISC 335. It is simply a good idea and standard practice.
We are contacting our liabilty insurance carrier about this gem of a project.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
engphila
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
Run this letter before sednding by your corp. attorney and professional liability insurer.
This is a true mess and trying to monitor this during construction will be a disaster, you will be contesting almost everything he does. Your firm will be to blame for delays etc. Just image if someone gets hurt during erection. Get out of Dodge...fast!
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
"The Owner has turned the job into a design-build project..."
Cynical, but true. Why the "gosh-darn heck" are we engineers allowing this kind of thing to happen? Is the customer always right because he pays the bills? Is it worth the harm down to our profession to sell our souls? How many of us work for construction contractors who do this kind of thing? It's "good enough" without shop drawings, right? We don't even need design standards or requirements or calculations because the construction contractor may come up with a better way to do things! Why the hell do we even go to college and study engineering when all you really need to do is bully a project into getting built.
I hope there's a way you can sue the owner to protect your reputation. And I hope there's a way to get the construction contractor out of the business.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
I guess the big question is what the steelwork will be inspected to.......I wonder what you would get when you asked for the CWI's inspection report?
ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
yes, there are shop drawings that produces good buildings. i once was responsible for checking 7000 tons of structural steel with the guarantee that any errors in fabrication (resulting from bad shop drawings) will be fully shouldered by our department. the project was completed with only one column returned to the shop (splice error). no repair work was done at site, no modifications either.
There is no argument that good shop drawings do produce good buildings, however in some developing countries, in some projects, the engineers are sometimes also are the constructor (fabrication and erection). I had worked with some projects that were completed with no shop dwgs with no major problems during erection at all, but this only holds true to buildings with fully welded structural joints. The fabrication shop do have engineers doing sketches for fabrication using AWS prequalified joints and dimensional tolerances, etc., working together with QA/QC. For bins, hoppers and other mechanical/HVAC/electrical equipments interconnections (bolt holes, expansion joints, etc), shop drawings are always necessary.
In case of building with bolted connection joints, no shop drawings would mean chaos.
RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
The case stated in my first post above, (i.e. no shop drawings) were mutually agreed by the client and the engineer/fabricator/erector (but would be unimaginable in developed countries).