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Steel Building without Shop Drawings?
2

Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

(OP)
I would like some input on the following issue.  

I have a two story 190'x43' or so steel building.  The roof is framed with bar joists with steel spandrels and columns and the floor is composite steel beams and girders with steel WF and tube columns. The lateral system is a steel OMRF at the roof and cip ordinary reinforced shearwalls from the floor to ground.

Our notes and specifications both call for steel shop drawings.  The owner's lowest bid fabricator, who is also the erector, is going to fabricate the pieces without any shop drawings.

I wrote a pretty stern letter to the Owner stating:
1. the drawings represent our professional opinion: a directive not a suggestion
2. it is standard industry practice to do shops for such a structure
3. I may not have time to drop all other projects to deal with field fixes when these pieces are hanging from a crane
4. I do not see how a welder could make the pieces without having a detailed piece drawing in front of him
4. there are many prescribed Special Inspection requirements that need to be met in the shop and the field

Basically, I was overruled by the Owner and received a nasty letter from them with the following adjectives: arrogant, condescending, ridiculous, unwilling, unprofessional, etc... How fun.

The drawings represent the final product and how the contractor gets there is definitely a "means and methods" issue.  On the flip side, I have never heard of trying to do such a project without steel shops.  Another local fabricator (whose bid was higher) said they would not try such a thing.  Every structural engineer I have talked to said that's crazy to do this without shops.

As an example, the fabricator's column erection scheme is to field weld the column to the base plate.  I asked him how does one plumb the column as I think the weld shrinkage upon cooling will pull the column out of plumb.  He said that's no problem with  a 12' level on the column...  There is a reason the rest of the world uses shim and grout or double nuts and grout to plumb a column.

The only "stick" I have left is the Chapter 17 Special Inspection stuff.  This is law.  Writing a response to an Owner's letter like that is most likely a waste of time: their opinion is formulated.
 
Any opinions and/or sage advice would be greatly appreciated.


 



 

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Sounds awful.  What is your role--designer?  AISC may have some advice for you on how to proceed in a case like this; it's against their industry interest to have bad fabrication and erection out there.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

(OP)
We are the structural EOR.  I had not thought to see what AISC has to say, that's a very good idea.  I submitted a technical question to their "solutions center" like a month ago and never received an answer.  Do you get a hold of a human being at AISC by contacting their regional engineer?

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Opinion: Look at this crazy situation from another angle. The Owner has turned the job into a design-build project. Inform the Owner (in writing) that your role under these circumstances will be limited to interpretation of the intent of YOUR existing drawings. Because of this decision by the Owner, you "regret" that you will not be able to offer any "new" technical input on the project. The reason is that shop drawings are the "only" way that you can get a true understanding of the Contractor's proposals. Be sure to document everything and let them (Contractor & Owner) solve their own problems.

www.SlideRuleEra.net idea

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Did you required shop drawings for your review on your drawing?

If there is a possibility of numerous problems with field fixes, do you know of another engineering firm that can handle that aspect of it, possibly hired and directly paid by the owner?

If there are problems with the field erection stuff, do you have a strong building department that will back you up on decisions?

Notify your E&O agent now and get them involved with legal advice.  Mine provides this as part of the insurance - initially at no cost.

We've had some very bad problems in the past with steel fabricator's upsurping the design engineers decisions.  One client eventually went belly up and another had to take the steel back to his yard and do major modifications because of the screw ups.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

It seems to me this is a straight forward legal question.  It appears to me that you have exercised the usual standard of care by requiring shops.  Is the owner a licensed engineer that is able to take responsibility for the project or not.  If the owner has made the decision to proceed in manner contrary to the EOR, then he is now the engineer, right?  Is he now practicing engineering without a license?

It sounds to me like your done with this client anyway.  I'd go all out to protect myself.  Get whatever legal help you need.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Enough mistakes can happen with shop drawings but without, I can only imagine....

I can see the Owner possibly setting you up to take the fall for any contractor's misintepretations of your drawings. That is why there is a review of shop drawings, to prevent those errors from occuring.

You might want to talk with your insurance agent on the best approach to take.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

For contacting AISC, I'm not sure.  I deal with them mostly from the certification end.  I guess either the regional engineer, or their main number at (312) 670-2400.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Let the owner/contractor run with it... Do your field reviews as you normally would and if the OWSJ, connections or other components requires a PE seal, then ask for this.  Without these you cannot certify the final construction...

Having shop drawings can also be a liability...

Dik

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

(OP)
Thank you all for your input.  This project is quickly becoming a mess and they have not dug a spoonful of dirt yet.   

For liability reasons, I think that I will have to write yet another letter expounding upon some of the concepts you guys have brought up.  

It will be a CYA antagonist construction process the whole way out now: this is a drain at a number of levels.

 


RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

At the conclusion of the project, most building departments require a letter stating work complies with approved drawings.  That would certainly be a good time to say that they don't, as you are still waiting for shop drawings to be reviewed for approval.  

I have a similar situation, and I have told the building department inspectors this.  They have in turn stated that they will not issue a certificate of occupancy.  Eventually I expect that shop drawings will show up.  

Of course the building is built, but there are connection issues that will be disputed, and may require rework

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

My guess is that the fabricator wants to prepare shop drawings (of a sort) but not submit them.  For example, they may be working off of marked up contract drawings, or standard details or computer printouts.  We have run into this on occasion, where you have "submittal drawings" that are adequate to show the structure, but in no way adequate to build it.  Not that I'm justifying the situation, just guessing at what's behind it.

The main thing that stands out to me is if you have any issues such as connection details or weld details or bolt sizes that are not called out on your drawings.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

This sounds like a train wreck. You can see the two trains racing toward each other, but the inevtable can not be prevented. The only advice in that situation is to jump. I am a contractor (Heavy Marine) and can not imagine something like that. If someone wanted me to field weld the columns, I would ask to bolt and grout. So much easier to fit up. Obviously the owner sees his intrests more aligned with the steel contractor than you. (That's a switch)When this thing falls apart and cost and time skyrocket, they will be looking for someone to blame, and I suspect you will move to the top of the list. Do not write anymore letters with out talking to your attorney. Dicuss how you get off the project and leave the liablilty where it belongs, with the owner and contractor. remeber the best law suits are the ones that miss you.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Bingo on the advice above -> contact your lawyer.

Ask yourself.. Do you really want to buy a building you won't own after you pay for it? That's what this is looking like.

Shop Drawings are the last chance for a trained eye to make sure the structure will perform as intended; but devil's advocate in me says that the owner is well on his way to making sure that he's not going to pay for his building, or at least all of it.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

It may be a little late, but how familiar are you with the contractor's work?  That is, have they used these procedures and had satisfied clients on previous jobs?

Is this project possibly not your regular line of work (IE, an industry you normally serve)?  I ask because in the past, I have noticed that different industries have different expectations regarding how work is done.  The owner may perceive you as using nuclear engineering requirements on a farm building.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

2
My knowledge on the legal aspect of this situation is at best pedestrian. Nevertheless I do have some questions regarding application of the building code to find a way out.

The questions I have are as follows:

1. Does the jurisdiction have any additional regulations beyond what is stated in the IBC that addresses the need for shop drawings? My thinking here is that IBC Sec 2205.1 directs us to the appropriate AISC Spec; and if you are using ASD, Section M1 of the AISC 335 does require shop drawings.

2. Is there any jurisdictional regulation that does not permit ALL welding fabrication to be done in the field by an erector who is not an approved fabricator? I do not know of any provision in the IBC that precludes it. Nevertheless, I know of many jurisdictions that have regulations that would not permit it. In fact, the increased costs associated with additional special inspection (IBC Table 1704.3..quite a bit in here) for field fabrication should make the use of an approved fabricator a wise choice. Have you talked with the folks in the building department about this?

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

contacting an attorney is good advice.  I'd contact my liability insurance carrier to see if there is anything they recommend.  

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

(OP)
Good stuff Henri2.  Thanks.

I bought up all the special inspection issues to the Owner, but I'll need to point this out to the building department as well.  They may not be aware of all the Chapter 17 stuff, but I expect that they will back me up.  I did not know that steel shops were prescribed in AISC 335. It is simply a good idea and standard practice.

We are contacting our liabilty insurance carrier about this gem of a project.  

    

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

In my experience, owners that take this sort of forked road are looking for reasons not to pay consultants, watch your accounts receivable.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

Stupid input, but since you require shops for the owsj, I would assume that these a pre-engineered owsj? Would this not make the shops part of the mandatory drawings for the building Permit, since they are not really detailed anywhere (from what I would assume?) I would walk, if you are not allowed to do your professional diligence. How do you know that the owsj are designed correctly or pick up imposed additional loads, etc?

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

(OP)
We did get (good) shop drawings from Vulcraft for the bar joists, composite deck, and roof deck.  They are a obviously a professional company and do shop drawings as  standard procedure.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

sundale, the last paragraph of Part II, Section D of the "Model Program for Special Inspection" (published by ICC)deals with the RDP's review of shop drawings. You can downlad a free copy of this document from http://www.ecodes.biz/product.cfm?category_id=15&cat_type=free  If you decide to talk with the building dept folks, in addition to what strategy you may already have in mind, consider giving them a copy. Hopefully they'll back you up.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

These are all valid and justified points, however I must concede SlideRuleEra's point.  We are usually contracted to provide a service to a client.  It would appear that you have fufilled your contractual obligation.  The owner has apparently decided to let the erector self-perform from the design drawings.  This decision comes with risks for the owner and erector but not necessarily the EOR, assumming that the design is code compliant.  At the end of the day, we all enjoy seeing our 'baby' come to life via diligent contructors, but ultimately we turn our designs loose to the peoples with whom we contracted with . . . welcome to the new world order . . . and keep your legal councel abreast of all your work!

engphila

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

I would suggest drafting a letter with your firms concerns that if not followed you will terminate services as the EOR.

Run this letter before sednding by your corp. attorney and professional liability insurer.

This is a true mess and trying to monitor this during construction will be a disaster, you will be contesting almost everything he does. Your firm will be to blame for delays etc.  Just image if someone gets hurt during erection. Get out of Dodge...fast!

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

SlideRuleEra said:
"The Owner has turned the job into a design-build project..."

Cynical, but true. Why the "gosh-darn heck" are we engineers allowing this kind of thing to happen? Is the customer always right because he pays the bills? Is it worth the harm down to our profession to sell our souls? How many of us work for construction contractors who do this kind of thing? It's "good enough" without shop drawings, right? We don't even need design standards or requirements or calculations because the construction contractor may come up with a better way to do things! Why the hell do we even go to college and study engineering when all you really need to do is bully a project into getting built.

I hope there's a way you can sue the owner to protect your reputation. And I hope there's a way to get the construction contractor out of the business.

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

[wry smile] Since when did shop drawings insure a smooth project and well built building? Maybe you guys are seeing better shop drawings than I am?!? [end wry smile]

I guess the big question is what the steelwork will be inspected to.......I wonder what you would get when you asked for the CWI's inspection report?

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

@zcp

yes, there are shop drawings that produces good buildings. i once was responsible for checking 7000 tons of structural steel with the guarantee that any errors in fabrication (resulting from bad shop drawings) will be fully shouldered by our department. the project was completed with only one column returned to the shop (splice error). no repair work was done at site, no modifications either.
 
There is no argument that good shop drawings do produce good buildings, however in some developing countries, in some projects, the engineers are sometimes also are the constructor (fabrication and erection). I had worked with some projects that were completed with no shop dwgs with no major problems during erection at all, but this only holds true to buildings with fully welded structural joints. The fabrication shop do have engineers doing sketches for fabrication using AWS prequalified joints and dimensional tolerances, etc., working together with QA/QC. For bins, hoppers and other mechanical/HVAC/electrical equipments interconnections (bolt holes, expansion joints, etc), shop drawings are always necessary.

In case of building with bolted connection joints, no shop drawings would mean chaos.     

RE: Steel Building without Shop Drawings?

AISC 303-05 Section 4.2, 4.4 & 4.5 clearly specifies the need for shop drawings. Unless there are specific provisions contained in the contract documents, AISC CP governs, even in the absence of this provision in the contract (except for metal joists & metal building systems). The role of the engineer/design is also clearly stated.

The case stated in my first post above, (i.e. no shop drawings) were mutually agreed by the client and the engineer/fabricator/erector (but would be unimaginable in developed countries).  

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