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PCB Software Suggestions

PCB Software Suggestions

PCB Software Suggestions

(OP)
For a few years now, I have been using PCAD 2001 to develop my PCBs.  Until recently, this tool, which is limited to 6 layers and 400 components, has been sufficient for my needs.  The problem is that the boards that I have been desiging have been steadilly increasing in their complexity and the one am currently designing exceeds the component limit.  The board that I am working on is an IO board with a fairly large number of inputs and outputs and a wide variety of functionaility which drives up the component usage very quickly and this board exceeds the capabilities of my present tool.

I am looking for suggestions for a PCB development (software) package and I wanted to ask what "y'all" are using to develop your PCBs with these days?  I am intereted in a commercial package that can reliably handle relatively complex boards for production purposes rather than a free or demo 'web based' program geared towards hobbyists and small quantity prototyping.

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

PADS is among the good ones. I think it is about the best of the non-workstation type of CAD package.  (I refer to Mentor and Cadence, which were the traditional high-end CAD) It can import and export to various other software, it can have its own autorouter, or export to external ones.

If you havent't seen the prices of such packages you're in for a surprise.  They deliver more, and they cost more.  A lot more.

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Zuken Redac's CadStar was an excellent tool when I used it. Back then it was Racal Redac, so that probably dates things! I expect that the later versions have built upon what was a pretty good foundation.

http://www.cadstarworld.com/

----------------------------------
  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

I use Protel, but it has its own set of fun bugs to play with, as do all packages.  There may or may not be better packages out there for my purposes, but Protel was used on a consulting job several years back, it's what I'm used to now, and it's paid for.  If someone wants me to use something else, they'll have to shell out the bucks and wait for my learning curve to staighten out.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

(OP)
Thank you for the suggestions.  I have begun attempting to contact these companies to see what I would be looking at to go those routes.  

I recall once before hearing that a lot of people use, and seem to like, Protel but I am having trouble finding it.  Is Protel even available anymore or did it get assimilated by Altium?

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

(OP)
We are the Borg.  You biological and technilogical distinctiveness will be added to our own.  Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated. laser

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Remove parts from your design until your package can handle it.lol

I suppose you should check out Accel.  I do a lot of work for Applied Materials and a few years back they standardized on Accel. Their "research showed it to be the best", whatever the hell that means.

Course maybe it's been gobbled up by now by Altium too.  Or is the same.

I have used Eagle which seemed pretty good.  Seemed like a lot of function for the dollars and wasn't some giant money grubbing EDA house.  I think you can try it out for free, see what you think before jumping in.

http://www.cadsoft.de/
http://www.cadsoft.de/Tour/tour00.htm

Ah yes macgyvers2000, fun with LEDs.  Looks pretty cool.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

I'm using CadStar at the moment. It's ok & easy to use once you get into it.

Also used Vutrax, which is very competent, but if I don't use it for a while I have to do the tutorials all over again...

Used Orcad for schematic capture for years, but never used the pcb layout.

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

I've used a lot of them since the first version of Smartwork appeared for PCs about 1985. Sure was a lot better than laying strips of Bishop Graphics red and blue tape on mylar!

Recently I've used PADS and Altium/Protel. I see them as roughly equivalent in capability. PADS originated at the high-end workstation CAD market and has migrated down to the level of PCs over the years. Protel originated on PCs and has worked it's way up to the high end feature market over the years.

Protel Trivia questions; anyone know how "Tasmania" fits into the picture? Remember bus-slot key cards?, or just how "Tango" was related and what happened to them?

I know if you do a monster search using Altium (Protel) and PADS, you will find that more employers are looking for PADS experience.

Despite this, I perfer Protel just for the reason I've used it far longer and am more efficient with it. I am not a PC designer by skill, just an engineer who has to do a lot of his own PC board design. Since I do a lot of Analog and RF, or have a lot of placement constraints, I never use autorouters.

I once worked at a company where I was developing a lot of complex boards. These were contracted outside to a outfit that dedicated PCB designers who used Mentor. They would pass back completed designs in just a few days! But such tools are not for the engineer who has to do everything himself.

As for Altium/Protel - To misquote Shakespear: A rose by any other name is still a rose cuz each new bud still has bugs.

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Orcad is now owned by Cadence. <gulp> <belch>... clown

I've noticed that some of the firms I've worked for have used Orcad for schematic capture and PADS for pcb layout.

No idea why, but that's the way it's been.

Quite like CadStar, which is just as well since I use it frequently.

Once I'd figured out how to get the little hole in the middle of the pad (by changing the pad definition from "circle" to "apperture"), it all went well.

Never done any SM stuff with it though. The available technology for producing the pcb (i.e. me, laser printer, uv box and etch tank) tend to argue against fine pitch devices and narrow tracks, though I am getting better slowly.

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

You left out "mysterious unmarked drums-of-waste in back".lookaround




lolo

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Yes. There are a number of plastic containers full of substances of unknown origin... clown

I shall need to find someone to take them away... safely and legally. clown

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Schematics of demo boards are almost always coming as an OrCAD file.  Unfortunately the OrCAD PCB package is not at par with the complexity of the devices (500-pin BGAs for example) found on the OrCAD schematics.  Perhaps that now it does since the assimilation by Cadence.  Fortunately OrCAD Capture exports its data quite nicely.

The big drawback of the OrCAD/PADS combo is that you can't perform on-the-fly pin and gate swaps.  When the board gets into high-density, this swapping ability allows you to optimize the routing without going back and forth between layout and capture.

How nicely do the other low-cost packages perform on this aspect?

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

I know that Altium/Protel supports pin swapping, but it's not a feature I've used extensively.

Dan - Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

I've been using PCAD for the last four years and am very happy with it.  I'm at a new company now and picking a CAD system.  I'm considering PADS to be compatible with a sister division.  They both appear to be very good packages.  

OrCAD's layout tool is now Allegro.  Allegro is a very nice tool if you use it everyday, but I've found it has a steep learning curve every time I move away from it for a while (and that happens a lot).  Allegro only works in action-object mode, not object-action, so moving to it from other layout packages is tedious.  

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

(OP)
Just to post a note of followup as it gets interesting from this point.

It was decided to upgrade the PCAD to the latest edition as this is the same tool we have been using and also appeares to be the most cost effective solution.  However, upon hearing about this, the CAD manager at another one of our companies called me this morning to strongly encourage me to NOT buy the PCAD.  Instead he recommends Cadence.  

The first of the two reasons he gave me for this suggestion were that he feels PCAD currently has a very small percentage of the market and combined with the fact that there has been little (visible) development in their tools he questions whether it will remain available.  The second reason is that his experience has shown that once you have climbed the learning curve with Cadence, PCB development will  talk almost half as long.

The other thing I wanted to mention about this issue, is that on the Suggestion of Altium, I downloaded the PCAD2004 30 day trial.  Obtaining the download has proven to be an extreme excersize in frustration.  First, the FPT system they contract through would not recognize the user name and password they gave me.  I tried again the next day and changed a checkbox on the login screen that I had no idea what it was for an it appeared to work.  At this point I was able to download the 900+MB program.  Lastly, upon trying to unzip the program, I discovered that I needed a password.  After two phone calls and a couple of emails with Altium, I was told the password which consists of 30 characters of nonsense numbers and letters. thumbsdown Unbelievable.

It is very obvious that the company is paranoid about protecting their licensing and puts a tremendous amount of effort in to THEIR security.  If they would only spend 1/8th of that effort on the tools, they would have one hell of a program.

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

We have used Altium/Protel from 98, 99SE, DXP and now Designer 6.  It is widely used in Australia.  I have also played with Cadence.

Designer 6 has a lot of features but like most Altium/Protel releases there are bugs and migrating from say 98 or 99SE can be frustrating to say the least.  In fact using Altium/Protel can be very "character building"!

regards
Pete

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

My salesperson recently (last five months) told me that demo licenses aren't available for PCAD nor Altium Designer.  Maybe they gave up on that licensing mess you describe.  

I don't have warm-fuzzies about PCAD sticking around either; when I told the Altium salesperson I was interested in PCAD he strongly, strongly pushed me toward Altium (funny though, the price was the same...).  

Altium has excellent tech support for PCAD.  I'm assuming it is just as good for Altium Designer...  

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

I've been using PADs for about 14 years now, back into the DOS days. Yes PADs started in DOS, not the workstation environment mentioned above.
Back then we had rules like, save every 5 mintues to a different filename, so when the program locks and corrupts the database, you can step back 5 mintues and recover. Now PADs autosaves a backup file to a different filename every 5 minutes. Talk about progress...
PADs got swallowed by Mentor Graphics, which already had Viewlogic and ViewDraw. I had used those on the Sun platform through Xwindows. Eventually the old Viewlogic was obsoleted and the PADs codebase took it's place, from what I was told.

Bottom line is PADs is a mature product, and although it got a rough start, it is probably the best all around product, especially when using the schematic and PCB packages together. Holy dual monitors batman!

I would recommend staying away from Eagle, even considering the $0 price. With most packages there is a ASCII import/export, or someway to convert designs to other CAD systems, but with Eagle it is a dead end. Right now I have an Eagle design that I had contracted out, and now wish to maintain it in PADs. This board will be completely re-layed out to go from Rev B to Rev C. Oh well.

I'm down a couple revs on PADs, and have been looking into current software. I've been poking for current prices for PADs, but buying CAD software is worse than buying a used car. Anyone know what the real price for powerlogic and powerpcb are?

-Bill
CE Designer Forum
www.cedesigner.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

'Now PADs autosaves a backup file to a different filename every 5 minutes. Talk about progress..."

Ah man that is a choice observation!!! HAHAHAHAHA

I am sorry to hear that about Eagle. <sniffcry>

The couple times I used it I was pleasantly surprised by it.  I use a custom layout package a colleague created.  It is extremely powerful running on top of AutoCad but of course I have now built up hundreds of schematics and thousands of parts built just the way I like them and so anything else means another long slog through the valleyofdarkness.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

There is also Pulsonix.  A complete suite at prices that seem too good to be true.  Interactive pin and gate swap included.  Import and export look fine too.  Is there anyone in the forum who tried or who uses it?

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Wow felixc; $5k without auto routing and any of the several options, all of them over $1k.  Ouch. Sounds nice though.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Well, what is the cost of a comparably equipped OrCAD or PADS suite nowadays?

It is still far from given, so this why I was hoping a comment from someone who might have been using it.  Is it bugged? Are the bugs worked out by any support team? Are they at least documented?

I'd die for these automatic differential routing features, but my death is not worth the price of these recent design suites so I stick to my outdated versions until my value goes up.  winky smile

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

And that is another reason why I have stuck with PADs 3.51 for so many years. I know exactly where each bug is, and how to avoid it. They are minor, bug can be a pain if not anticipated.

I got a price of $4K for PADs 2006 with schematic, PCB, and 2 layer autorouter. From another source I got a price of $3.5K for the same thing. I am still looking for another datapoint to find out if they can be unbundled, and if the prices are padded (no pun intended).

-Bill
CE Designer Forum
www.cedesigner.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Basic PADS Schematic and layoout (PowerLogic and PowerPCB) is $3500 node locked (dongle) for a combo package (Suite).  

About $4500 for a dongle for PowerLogic and another dongle for PowerPCB so one user can be working on a schematic and another working on a layout at the same time.  About $1200 for the PowerLogic dongle and $3300 for the PowerPCB dongle.  

About $5300 to get the two license on your network.  About $1500 for PowerLogic and $3800 for PowerPCB.  

OrCAD runs $8000 for the base package.  

Altium Designer is $10000.  Same price for PCAD from Altium.   That might be negotiable; the initial quote is about $2000 higher than we paid about four years ago with another company...   

That's the basic packages; the options add up fast to push you to the $10K mark.  Add digital simulation on the high end (Hyperlynx) and you can be talking over $30K for full PADS system.  

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

Thanks zapped! A straightforward answer - You would never survive in sales. :)

-Bill
CE Designer Forum
www.cedesigner.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

We've actually been looking for a CAD mfr to get into bed with so we can marry-up EPD's PCB and Schematic translators with their package. For us, it would be great to have a working intermediate format. For them the advantages of being able to load and save files from and to several other mfrs are incalculable.

Ideally, I'd like something EPD could distribute as well, so we can get some direct advantage, as well as feedback.

I don't want to bother approaching one of the big ones (PADS, PCAD, etc.) since they'd just swallow us up (that and the fact that they probably wouldn't be interested).

Anybody got any ideas or recommendations?

Dan Judd
danjudd@epdcorp.com

RE: PCB Software Suggestions

yourtaxesatwork; I am not very clear with your question but if you are looking for a Cad package to work with, look at Intellicad.  It is an autocad look alike that costs $50 to $300 bucks. $300 bucks gets you the source code so you could build something into it and "know" the basic engine is not going to change until you want or let it. (Unlike dang AutoCad that changes hourly always requiring a huge amount of screwing around.)

Here is the 'dry' site.  There are many other sites that are more lucid and where you can download the demo system.

http://www.intellicad.org/default-net6.asp

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

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