Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
(OP)
![[ponder] ponder](https://www.tipmaster.com/images/ponder.gif)
I'm sure we've all heard the story before.
Joe Blow was reading job postings online and the boss found out. Joe was fired for being an unloyal employee.
I've heard several variations of the story, but they all have the same moral: Don't let your boss know you're looking at other career options or else you might get fired.
Does anyone have any real-world stories to validate this rule-of-thumb?
I just find it hard to believe that anyone would fire an employee just because they are interested in other career paths. We all get sick of our jobs from time to time and wonder how green the grass is on the other side. It's only human nature to check out your options in life. How can you label someone 'disloyal' in these instances? It doesn't seem right.





RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Chris
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RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
No, not stupid. I would say realistic.
My bosses have two ways to find out if I want more money - by asking me, or by seeing me leave.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
JAE - I wish I worked for you
Ashereng - That's a snappy but true statement
A
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RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
The ultimate goal, I think, is to find that ground where both sides can be satisfied.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Dealing with market forces does not make you an ogre either.
It is my job to do what is right by me. If I don't take that responsibility, no one else will.
If is my boss' job to do what is right by him/the company. If he doesn't do that, I certainly won't.
You and I are on opposit side of the same relationship. If we each do our jobs, that is the best we can hope for. N'est pas?
Heckler,
I am not sure if "snappy" is good or bad. B
ut what I said is the truth. I was at a position where my boss, after not performing a salary review, or even talking about salary, for over a year, was surprised that I and others, tendered resignations. I suppose I could have gone in and talked to him about it, but I figured if he wanted to deal with salary, he would have. I wanted to up my salary, so I dealt with it by finding a better paying position elsewhere.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
It's not so much a rule of thumb, but a recounting of events that unfortunately, does happen. Right, wrong or otherwise.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
It's not just Arizona, it's almost everywhere, excluding unions and collective bargain groups. It's called "at will employment" I think. (Don't quote me.)
Sounds like you work in a place that I wouldn't. They don't like the fact you want to further your training? Geez. You may want to start thinking about more than just looking.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
BTW, I can't remember the term either!
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Three morals to the story:
1) If you land in the sh** it isnt a bad thing
2) If someone pulls you out of the sh** he isnt necessarily your friend
3) if you are in the sh** dont sing about it
DONT LET YOUR BOSS KNOW!!!
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
We were glad to see him go, hehehe.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I do not pay the best money around or own the smartest offices or latest equipment, but that is because the company could not stand the cost, not because I am some face less money grabbing ogre. I often take less money than I pay people I employ despite working longer hours than any of them and pay them bonuses when ever possible, not because I can fudge bonuses over pay but because that gives me more control over out goings rather than hiring and firing all the time. It is a tough market place at the minute.
I would not fire someone because another person walked in and offered to work for less. If someone wants to leave that is their choice, but it is hard (if unreasonable) not to take it personally when they do and to be paying them to do so would make it even more so.
Trust and loyalty is a two way street.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
However, if I was offered a better salary combined with better working conditions and more prospects for personal and career advancement, I'd not wait around the old job much longer, even though I am a loyal employee.
There's a point where personal priorities outweight the loyalty to the employer. I don't think employers should take it badly.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
"Management has the right to terminate your employment at a moment's notice for any reason or no reason at all."
Scary stuff! It wouldn't wash in Europe. Neither would being fired for reading job ads.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Great story. That was really funny! I gave you a star for it. I'll have to keep that little piece of wisdom tucked away in my brain. Thanks.
Good point. I never thought of it that way. I gave you a star for that. Thanks.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
That said, I would just like to point out, that it never hurts to ASK for a raise. Just have a clear list of what you are doing / have done that warrants money. I doubt any employer would fire you just for asking. So, that means that the worst that will happen is that the boss will say no. Unless, of course, your boss happens to be a miserble pr!ck. I guess the moral is pick your battles wisely.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
What made it even more annoying was that the company I worked for was profitable and had a good and loyal work force. Basically they started developing around where the factory was, land prices shot up and he sold the land. My ex boss walked away a millionaire many times over and I with all the work force walked away with the absolute legal minimum and was told on Monday that we would be finished on Wednesday. The longest serving employee had been with him 27 years; he was treated just the same as everyone else. I do know how it feels and it is not nice.
That has made me even more determined never to treat anyone I employ in that way.
As I said I am not in the position to pay the best money around but do the best I can and try to make up in other ways, like being very flexible about when people work, giving them the odd paid day off when we are not busy, that type of thing.
I try to be very trusting and honest but this does leave you open to being burned but general my staff and customers seem to like it that way. I am often out the office and people can if they wish sit there on the net looking for jobs, I do not monitor them, but I would be very annoyed if they did, that would be abusing my trust as I see it.
If people wish to leave for whatever reason that is fine, I was once in that situation I know what it is like to want to better yourself, just please don’t do it in my time.
Trust and loyalty HAS to be a two way street, if you do not give it how can you expect to receive it?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I agree with you. The problem is usually the answer to this question: "Now, who goes first?". In you case, it seems you do. Good on ya!
It would be nice if you were in Petroleum rather than Automotive. Oh well. Maybe I can come over to mechanical.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
you place too much faith in management.
There is an option that should be open to you in the annual review process: to make sure your boss knows what are your expectations. He may not ask, he may be surprised to see you leave, he may ask "why didn't you say something? if you had, maybe I could have gone to bat at budget time but i assumed you were content."
Managers usually don't canvas for bad news and while they know everyone would like to think they are worth more money, they really don't want to ask about these things... think about it:
"Well, would you like more money, or is your salary good enough for you?"
What answer will they get, even from those who are reasonably happy with their lot?
Those who have a concern will raise the issue.
To my mind pretty well everyone will "job hunt" but to leap to a conclusion that a person isn't happy or loyal is wrong... for some people it is just "window shopping".
I would draw the line at doing so in work time, but in breaks or after hours? or when you work far more than your required 40 hrs? there is a sense of quid pro quo that is often lacking.
I would expect management to be a bit sensitive to the issues and yes, while they may be documented cases of people being fired for "inappropriate use of the internet" the probabiluty is, as someone pointed out, that this was the excuse and not the reason.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
So you are saying that it is my job to make sure my boss knows how much money I want?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I don't have a vested interest in the name on the cheque, just the quantity.
However, we are diverging from the OP. So I'll stop here.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I have no guilt in skimming the careers section of a company website or glancing over the recruitment e-mails which seem to land every day in my inbox. I work substantially more than my paid hours, work through lunch, lose a lot of public holdays, and have my free time regularly disturbed because of problems at site: a few minutes a day of company time spent ensuring that my boss is doing his job by keeping my package competative is not going to cause me sleepless nights.
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
They would come up with across the board numbers of 2-3% sometimes and say the company had a tough year. No one could ever negotiate.
One year, I took on, not only my current job, but added the responsibilies of another guy who quit. He made more than me, was less educated and less professional. not only did I not get bumped up to his level of compensation (which should have been the minimum), but I was given an OVERALL raise of 8%. This included the ubiquitous 3%. So, for my troubles and for moving up from supersvising two engineers and acting as interum engineering manager (when the director of engineerig was traveling, which was often) to directly supervising a total of 14 engineers, technical service reps, inside sales reps and order-entry personel, I essentially got a 5% increase. This was still well below the salary of the guy whose job I absorbed. He had one measely job, I then had his and mine.
I didn't know it at the time, but I think this was when I subconsciously decided that I was outa there. When I brought up the pay to my boss (who made about 3x what I made), he mentioned that the previous guy was way over-paid and that he was personal drinking budies with one of the owners.
Ed
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I swear, you just described my situation at a previous company almost exactly except some years the market was so tough they didn't give rises and in others, deferred them for 6-months.
Yes, they too did the "natural wasteage" routine and gave the vacant jobs to sitting employees for no extra reward..
This company is not unique. This seems to be increasingly the way of things. Management/directors have incrementally arrived at the siuation where they can do as they like.
So we have a situation where loyalty is a one way street.
I never did job hunt on the internet while at work but I wouldn't object to people doing so in their break times; what does it cost the company?
When it comes to being "clever" job hunting is a way to send a signal. Companies might find that monitoring employees visits to job sites a useful indicator of moral... excpet there are much better indicators and they could care less about moral.
Ask yourselves, why should management care if you are searching for jobs on the internet? If they care that you may leave, then this is a useful indicator for them but there are much better ways to retain staff; penalising them isn't it.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I agree with that - however, as a manager who tries to keep my people busy, well paid and happy, I must say this is a very difficult thing to do. There really is no way to truly find out "how much you are worth". This is a moving target and is based upon a large number of variables, conditions, and effects.
For instance, an engineer on my staff may be "worth" $50,000/year in January. Then, in March, a large economic change happens, say a big drop in the stock market, or a boost in the interest rates. Now, the voluum of projects diminishes, our firm (and other firms in the area) don't have enough work, and my employee becomes less valuable as he cannot demand higher wages (less market for his services) and I cannot pay him higher wages (low firm income). Is he now "worth" $40,000?
But then in June, the market recovers, a large business moves into our town and competing businesses follow and there is too much work for the existing firms. We try to hire additional staff...and this requires higher wages, and my $50,000 employee is now getting offers of $60,000 from our competitors.
Every year I try very hard to purchase and study numerous salary surveys, and get information from other Human Resource personnel of our competitors. These all provide a vast array of salary ranges based on location, firm size, discipline, private/public employer status, years of experience, education level, and license status.
I've spent hours setting up spreadsheets to interpret these surveys and I at best can only get a rough range of what my guy is "worth".
Bottom line: it is very difficult to set salaries at a level where the firm can not be overwhelmed by "overpaying" staff and at the same time pay enough to satisfy the employee to stay...to tell him that we want him to stay, grow, and add to the value of the firm.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I think you sum up perfectly what managers and bosses are facing all the time. Do you keep paying someone $50,000 when the market only stands $40,000, well yes you can but only if they do not jump ship when they are worth $60,000.
Yes everyone wants job security and top salary, but the two do not go hand in hand all the time. If people want to chase the best money and there is no reason they should not, then they also have to accept that firing or pay cuts go with this.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
With the effort you put into trying to determine what the average pay is for your people, you seem to be trying to do the best you can to keep your people. Not too overpaid, and not too underpaid. And by what you have said, you seem to be doing a good job of it for your guys.
However, I would like to clarify one point on "worth".
Let say you make $100,000 at company A for the sake of arguement. A direct competitor, company B, across the stree offers you $150,000 to do the same job. Let say your current employer will not match, they are only still offering $100,000.
Are you now worth $150,000?
The answer to that is you are worth $100,000 to company A, but you are worth $150,000 to company B.
Your worth to someone, is what that someone is willing to pay. It is not an innate value.
An analogy is the run up on price of a Honda generator as a storm is approaching. Now that everyone wants/needs one, the price goes up (the only people not buying are those that don't need another one).
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I absolutely do not disagree with you - the word "worth" was used in my post with quotes in that I hear this sort of term used a lot by employees as though there is some true number out there that represents their personal value and....damn... the company just won't pay me that nunber (i.e. pay me what I'm worth).
I always cringe at that sort of talk precisely because of what you say, that the amount of money you are paid is what you are worth. In my book, human beings are priceless as human beings.
As employees, their compensation shouldn't be looked upon as a measure of how much human respect the company sees in them (although that sometimes happens)...but rather its simply an attempt by a company to pay them a wage to do a job and still make a profit.
And that wage setting exercise is always a sort of tug-of-war between company and employee. The wage sometimes is too high and sometimes is too low in that some are offered higher wages and leave, some stick around even though they don't justify their wage based upon their benefit to the company.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Engineer "A" does his fair share of routine work, but engineer "B" is absolutely brilliant. He has come up with innovations that have really advanced the companies products to market leader status.
It may be perfectly acceptable to pay the high performers more than their less talented or less motivated brethren. But doing so openly may promote jealousies and hatreds.
I have seen this, where some employees actually gang up and sabotage the work of others, in order that they themselves do not appear inferior. It can seriously impact the team spirit if there is a large salary differential for what to some may look like equivalent effort.
I believe negotiated salaries should remain a private matter.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
IMO; the whole concept of income secrecy was invented by corporates who want to swindle their employees: ie, if you don't know John in the next cubicle who's same thing as you earns twice as much, you'll be happy with half his salary. I think all firms should (be forced to) act as yours does!
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Money is only part of this and people choose jobs for different reasons, what is the benefit of knowing what a co-worker or your boss earns? If you are happy with your terms stay happy if not do something about it.
If you really want to cheer yourself up see what an equivalent worker earns in Eastern Europe or India or China or Mexico the list goes on.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
true when it's about terms of employment during the job interview. Untrue when it comes to asking for a raise. If I was paid n and the guy next to me doing the same thing just as good was paid 4n, I'd be at the boss's door in 30 secs flat. However, if I didn't know the guy was recieving 4n, I'd be happy with just n, which is what the employer would want to.
And money is only a part of a deal, we absolutely agree. But a 90% part as far as I'm concerned. Also, I'm very cheery: I live in Eastern Europe and, being an ME, can but dream of a weekly salary a kid at McDonald's earns in USA. You know what the Jew said...
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
I have only heard of companies doing that. I don't know of anyone working at such a company.
Are bonuses, options, stock grants, etc also posted? Many senior executive make $100,000 salary, and $200,000 bonus. This is very common at the "C" level.
Warpspeed,
Fair point. There are sufficient sources of jealousies in an office environment. Posting salaries is just another possible source of jealousy.
ajack1,
I think you miss the point of comparing a US engineer's salary with someone in India. Cost of living is also different. If it costs me $10,000 to live and I make $20,000 a year, that is different than if it costs me $40,000 to live and I only make $60,000 a year.
When I compare, for most things, I compare with my "neighbours" and "friends".
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
TTFN
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
-b
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Is your self-image so poor that it's completely tied to knowing that you got $0.05 more raise that someone else?
TTFN
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Yup, I would like to see for myself that I am paid like a top 3 guy.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Bad feelings come about when salary secrets are unexpectedly revealed and they don't match expectations. If they're posted on the bulliten board from day one, then there are no suprises. You see who/what the company values, and if you don't want to emulate them you can go elsewhere.
-b
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
So if Joe Blogs was a Grade 3 on his second increment, everyone knew EXACTLY what Joe took home.
But in private companies, I have never seen anything like that, and hope I never do.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
This type of thing is either good or bad depending on where you are at. If you are at the top end then it is probably bad for you, but if you are at the bottom then having that information could be useful. If you are at the top and everyone know that, you might get more people piling on work for you to do.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Well no I would not and I doubt many would, I would see what different dealerships would offer and even look at different manufacturers, much as I would if I was buying a machine for the company, or even “buying an employee”.
Many factors come into the negotiation in a slack month I know I will get a better price; if the old model were soon to be replaced by a new one I would expect a large discount. If the company or salesman needed the sale to hit targets I would be in a stronger position, if the car was second hand and had been on the forecourt for a long time again this puts me in a stronger position. I would negotiate the best price I could and try and get any add ons, free servicing, extended warranty that kind of thing. At the end of the day I would either buy or not depending on the deal, but if I was happy with that deal that I struck on that given day under unique circumstances what would I gain knowing that my next door neighbour had paid £3,000 more or less than me?
If two people doing the “same” job get different packages there is usually a very good reason for it, the one earning less would probably feel aggrieved and the one earning more would probably feel smug, the one earning less would probably not work so hard feeling he was worth less and the one earning more would feel he needed to do less as he was more valuable. Neither would gain and both would lose out in the next round of pay talks and of course the company would lose out as well, who wins from this?
I really fail to see what someone else earns matters, be happy or unhappy with what you earn.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
On balance most graduates would prefer to receive the biggest pay rise in their cohort, rather than everyone getting a uniform larger raise.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
Knowing the deal my neighbor got on his car would help me evaluate the the quality of my negotiation methods. If I did what I thought was my best getting a good deal, shopping all the local dealerships, and then find out that my neighbor got a better deal because he bought his convertable in Canada in the fall, then maybe next time I'll be a bit smarter.
I certainly wouldn't begrudge my neighbor, be it next door or cubicle, their good fortune. On the contrary, it means that there is room for me to improve.
The profit motive doesn't work if the potential profit is secret. If the guys down the hall doing stress analysis are making 1.5x what I make, then I might consider a career move. If the next position up the ladder is more headaches than $$, then I might reevaluate my current career trajectory.
As far as I'm concerned, more information is always better for the employee. I can't understand willingly keeping myself ignorant.
-b
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
It is quite logical that people should work best in an environment of complete disclosure of all information. It is human nature that they will not.
I would like to be the wise, mature, and logical individual who could know the salaries of all employees of my company and rationally accept my ranking within that organization and agree that my pay is appropriate for my contribution.
But I would be a liar if I claimed I would be completely devoid of envy and that I would not be tempted to disagree with the salary rankings chosen by my employer. It is possible that I would give in to that temptation and become an envious jerk.
Forgive me, Greg, if I step beyond what you intended to say, but I think your point was that leaders of organizations need to make decisions on reality, rather than what they wish "should" be.
Some companies choose to reveal all and try to create a culture where people can overcome their temptation to envy because of the openness. Some companies feel that they cannot take that risk. Which is right and which is wrong? While I am a team leader I am not a manager, and I really don't know which is best. I am not even sure that one method is always correct in every situation.
As a Christian I believe I am expected to work without envy, but as a weak human, I am probably better off in a company that does not disclose such information, as I am now.
debodine
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
These redicilous notions out of the way, if I was an employer and nobody knew how much the others were paid, I'd be in a position to underpay everybody. This is why the system has been developed. As I said: if you earn n and everyone else is earning 4n, you're the sucker - and if the fact about salaries is kept quiet, you'll continue to be one. I was once at a job interview where the interviewer wouldn't divulge the salary I'm supposed to get. He called in an employer and he said he was "satisfied". I declined, and 4 other guys who were there with me accepted the job.
A few months later, when they "dug out" the facts about salaries (thisaway-thattaway in an informal manner), they found out people of a certain citisenship were paid the same amount of money in EUR as they were in the local money (which means they earned approx. 8x less for the same job/same amount of expertise/same working hours/same assigments/same efficiency). Are they suckers? Absolutely.
Sadly they didn't sniff out WHY was the employer secretive... my motto is: "if something's hidden, there's a GOOD reason to hide it".
RE: Do people really get fired for looking at other job options?
"Only the guilty have something to hide"
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...