Sentence Clarification
Sentence Clarification
(OP)
Hello,
I would like to request a clarification on the following sentence "You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event."
For example if the meeting starts at 11.00 AM does the sentence mean:
1) One has to enter the meeting before 10.45 AM
2) One can enter the meeting only after 10.45 AM
3) Ambiguous.
Thanks all for the help.
Regards,
I would like to request a clarification on the following sentence "You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event."
For example if the meeting starts at 11.00 AM does the sentence mean:
1) One has to enter the meeting before 10.45 AM
2) One can enter the meeting only after 10.45 AM
3) Ambiguous.
Thanks all for the help.
Regards,





RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
If it were an in-person meeting, #1 might make sense, but it seems as though that would be a 10:45 meeting, not an 11:00 meeting.
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
I guess that points towards 3).
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RE: Sentence Clarification
"You must enter the meeting at least 15 minutes prior to the event"
or
"You may enter the meeting at any time up until 15 minutes prior the event"
On the other hand, I don't have to rephrase anything to be comfortable with message 2). A parallel sentence would be "You can place your bets up to 5 minutes before race time"
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RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
davidbeach:
Even though I understand what you are saying, I don't think it is right to apply that line of reasoning to any temporal context because time does not flow backwards. I cannot start at 11.00 AM and arrive at 10.45 AM of the same day.
Rest:
For the above mentioned reason(s),I eliminated #2 from the list. But since it pertained to Webinar I was not comfortable with my deduction ( for all the reasons ivymike pointed out). Hence I had to place a call to clarify the matter. And as it turned out #2 is the right answer.
So just wanted to take a second opinion on the issue. I appreciate the participation guys.
Regards,
RE: Sentence Clarification
I agree with you. It is #1 if phrased by an Indian.
For protocol and security reasons you are requested to arrive 15 minutes ahead of the schedule. Late comers will not be allowed. This is the message sent out.
RE: Sentence Clarification
Garment outlets, here, generally offer a discount of upto 50%. You walk in and end up with a mere 5% or 10%(and they won't conduct any free english coaching classes either
Nevertheless, with an Indian heart, I would consider OP's choice as 1.
With Indian mind, I will take it as 2 for myself (I always smoke before a meeting)
BigH,
It is true but can you please suggest me what are the other expressions? I tried for 15 minutes but not getting any other thought. 'Costs through the end' seems to me as a redundant expression, somehow.
RE: Sentence Clarification
Up to 15 minutes ... 1 - 15 minutes before 11:00
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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RE: Sentence Clarification
It could mean what ctopher says, however it could also mean "up to" in the sense of "up to the last moment"
RE: Sentence Clarification
At least where I work, nobody will ever be at a meeting more than 15 minutes before it starts. Actually, there's usually nobody at a meeting until 5 minutes after it starts.
RE: Sentence Clarification
all said and done, the statement:
simply means this, and there is no ambiguity:
You will be allowed to enter the meeting up to 10:45 AM.
The whole confusion arises because of the reader's focus on up to in combination with prior to. A careful reading will make it clear that there is no semantic ambiguity, no grammatical error; the statement is certainly not a paradox. Hehe.
It could very well have been said by any English-speaking bloke whatever.
RE: Sentence Clarification
"up to 15 mins prior to the event" means "no earlier than 10:45 AM".
Although it could easily have been worded without ambiguity or confusion, IMO, it is blatantly obvious that it means, "You may enter the meeting after 10:45 AM"
If no-one is at the meeting, how can it be started.
panduru ... if there was no ambiguity this thread would not be here.
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RE: Sentence Clarification
I understood it to be #2 also.
Yes you can. Go west. May need to drive fast though across the time change line.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Sentence Clarification
So, the clever wordplay did get you!
Folks, we are techies here. So here goes:
You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event.
=
You may enter the meeting up to (15 minutes prior to the event).
=
You may enter the meeting up to (10:45 AM).
Now where is the ambiguity?
RE: Sentence Clarification
If a person was trying to schedule a meeting ("enter a meeting") in some software, the software might have been coded to disallow last minute meetings to be scheduled. Hence, "up to 15 minutes prior to the event" could imply one could not schedule a meeting after 10:45am.
Had the OP stated that this was for an online event, I would have jumped on option 2 as the majority had.
"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
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RE: Sentence Clarification
"As the 6th agenda item of next Tuesday's staff meeting, our Chairmand and CEO will put his pants down. You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event."
RE: Sentence Clarification
panduru;
"So, the clever wordplay did get you!"
Not at all. As I stated in my post, "IMO, it is blatantly obvious that it means, "You may enter the meeting after 10:45 AM""
"Now where is the ambiguity?"
I personally don't see it, but the ambiguity is proven by the fact that other people selected meanings #1 & #3. Also, if there was no ambiguity this thread would not exist.
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RE: Sentence Clarification
Prosit, to the thread!
RE: Sentence Clarification
Replace the words "up to" with "by"
"You may enter the meeting by 15 minutes prior to the event."
This says enter before 10:45AM
Group the "up to" with 15 minutes.
"You may enter the meeting (up to 15 minutes prior) to the event."
This says enter after 10:45AM
My version: "You may enter the meeting "within" 15 minutes prior to the event." Comments?
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
I was expecting this much earlier! I'm sure many had "resolved" the sentence that way, but didn't want to say it.
(up to 15 minutes prior) = What on earth?
In fact, it is not a proper clause at all.
When one tries to get a meaning as one reads the words, by the time you are at the end of up to 15 minutes, you think you got a clause there. Never do that. One has to read the whole sentence before trying to get the meaning.
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716
RE: Sentence Clarification
Hence the instructions might better be written as:
"You may enter the meeting room up to 15 minutes prior to the event."
Prior to that you can't get in or log on more than 15 minutes prior to the event.
Never mind the IT speak, be clear for us mortals and say what it is and use appropriate terms, none of this "virtual" stuff.
Nothing in the statement suggests that you are required to be there "before" it starts nor that you cannot arrive at any time from 15 minutes before the meeting until after the meeting has ended (for left over sandwiches).
I would like to think the message would more clearly show if it is:
- a meeting (real): "enter the meeting room"
- an online seminar: "log in to the online seminar"
- a video conference: "log in to the video conference"
The point is perhaps that depending on the technology involved, time must be allowed to sort out the glicthes if the event is to get off on time.Going to a room early.... are there coffee and sandwiches/biscuits/cookies waiting? chat gap with others?
Log in to a an online seminar.... why would I want to log in much before a minute or two before it starts? Just enough time to ensure the connection is ok and if it isn't, i have my excuse for missing technologised boredom.
For a video conference, well some prior setting up is almost always going to be required and there is often a chat gap in one video conference room or another while someone sends for IT to come and fix something. Then there is all that fussing with microphones and camera angles. There is always some one who isn't in camera shot (he came late or just in time) and where there's one you always worry who else is there, out of shot... the great man himself perhaps?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Sentence Clarification
"Please be ready to start the meeting at 1100. You may arrive any time after 1045."
Unambiguous and polite.
RE: Sentence Clarification
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Sentence Clarification
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
RE: Sentence Clarification
Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
The macabre point I thought of was with respect to executions! They don't want witnesses arriving a single minute before the main event as it may cause a commotion to the other witnesses. Similarly, I suppose, with operas or symphonic concerts where they want everyone at and settled into their seat well before the first note is struck!
Some of the words that threw me for a while - "cum", "vide", "intimate" - words that are used widely there but ones I had never seen before. Then, of course, there is the pronunciation: de-mo-cracy' rather than de-mo'-cracy. Me-ta-bol'-ism rather than me-tab'ol-ism.
Very interesting place!
RE: Sentence Clarification
When we were taught punctuation in childhood, this was the example that showed the importance of placing punctuation marks.
The one line sentence from President, after the condemned prisoner applies for clemency reads like "kill him not, leave him". The careless telegraph man (or woman!)types the message "kill him, not leave him".
Even today, I am not sure why the telegrapher is not considered as a person with better english. If I had such powers, I could have sent the Judge for scripting english movies and the telegrapher to the Booker's prize panel.
The other day I was watching a dance movie. When the steet kid watches the heroine dancing, he exclaims (to his friend, another kid) "mane(?)! that's ma mov"
RE: Sentence Clarification
Ashereng:
Good one. I thought that I covered all my bases when I posted, but you still found a chink in my armor. :)
My assumption was "In the same time zone" and when "Not travelling with relativistic speeds.
My fault. I should have stated my assumptions.
Assume Nothing!!
RE: Sentence Clarification
The short version of several paragraphs:
You may parse the sentence so as to have either meaning.
The sentence is ambiguous.
respectfully
RE: Sentence Clarification
The #1 interpretation ("One has to enter the meeting before 10.45 AM") relies on the parsing the sentence as follows:
You may enter the meeting up to [15 minutes prior to the event].
where [15 minutes prior to the event] is treated as a time.
Substituting for [ ] = [10:45] we would have:
"You may enter the meeting up to [10:45]"
Now look at the sentence I just wrote. No-one would properly use "up to" to refer to a time in this manner. Instead they would use "until" or "by".
I conclude this interpretation #1 is not correct.
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RE: Sentence Clarification
It is also used to mean "Less than or equal to."
Therin lies the ambiguity, in common usage if not correct usage.
Further, if the distinction between common usage and correct usage leads to this much controversy this is prima facia evidence of ambiguity.
respectfully
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
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RE: Sentence Clarification
Examples of use of "up to" with a duration:
* "It will take up to 3 hours to do the job."
* "You have up to 60 days to return the product for a full refund."
* "You can get into the theater up to 15 minutes before the start of the move."
All are perfectly natural and consistent with meaning #2
Examples of "up to" with a specific time:
* "Please be home up to 5:00." The natural response to such statement would be: "HUH? Did you mean by 5:00?"
* "You may get into the store up to 9:00" The natural response to such statement would be: "HUH? Did you mean up until9:00?
None of these sound right, and this is the useage we have to accept for meaning #1.
Maybe "sounds right" is too subjective. I don't know what grammatical rule can be used to prove it. If the sounds-right threshhold is different for other people, I guess ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder.
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RE: Sentence Clarification
Regards
RE: Sentence Clarification
@waross :
You may very well watch television up to fifteen minutes prior to the archiving of this thread. Have a nice time.
RE: Sentence Clarification
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Sentence Clarification
RE: Sentence Clarification
The meeting is still going on and we still haven't got beyond everyone re-stating the same thing in different units.
This is what comes of the latest management fad for "teamwork" without nominating a "team leader" to reduce everything to a single course of action and get everyone behind it whether they agree or not.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: Sentence Clarification
B.E.
RE: Sentence Clarification
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
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RE: Sentence Clarification
They just have to agree what time is the best time to crash the server, for how long and how often, who will be the latest victim of the internet usage monitor and who will have "Hearts" and "Solitaire" removed from their machine.
All done in five minutes.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com