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Sentence Clarification

Sentence Clarification

Sentence Clarification

(OP)
Hello,

I would like to request a clarification on the following sentence "You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event."

For example if the meeting starts at 11.00 AM does the sentence mean:

1) One has to enter the meeting before 10.45 AM
2) One can enter the meeting only after 10.45 AM
3) Ambiguous.

Thanks all for the help.

Regards,

RE: Sentence Clarification

I would probably choose (1) but I have to agree there is some ambiguity to it also.

RE: Sentence Clarification

After a number of readings, 3).  I read it initially as 1).

RE: Sentence Clarification

Ambiguous, perhaps, but assuming the sentence is referring to an online meeting I'm going with #2.  For an online meeting it would make sense to be able to enter early, but only a certain amount early (as 2).  Being required to enter the meeting long before its start (as 1) doesn't seem logical to me.  

If it were an in-person meeting, #1 might make sense, but it seems as though that would be a 10:45 meeting, not an 11:00 meeting.  

RE: Sentence Clarification

While poorly worded, I'm reasonably sure it is 2).  Sounds like a teleconference setup.  The up to 15 minutes before is from the time (zero minutes before) through other times, such as 5 and 10 minutes before, up to 15 minutes before.  The connection setup does not exist prior to 10:45.

RE: Sentence Clarification

Funny, 2) seems more likely to me.  I have to squint to see 1).

I guess that points towards 3).

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Sentence Clarification

If 1) were the intended message, I would expected them to phrase it a little differently, for example:
"You must enter the meeting at least 15 minutes prior to the event"
  or
"You may enter the meeting at any time up until 15 minutes prior the event"

On the other hand, I don't have to rephrase anything to be comfortable with message 2).  A parallel sentence would be "You can place your bets up to 5 minutes before race time"

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Sentence Clarification

I read it as 2).  Entering anytime upto 15 minutes prior to the event is permitted.  The statement does not prohibit entering after the event has started.  I agree with all that it can be better worded...

RE: Sentence Clarification

No disrespect, but was the instigator of the message Indian?  There, I saw the phrase: "Costs up to June" - what they meant was "Costs through the end of June."  Sometimes, it is necessary to know the origin of the writer (even the English and Americans disagree on English!).  Given my experience, I would say that you can enter between 1045 and 1100.  Why would one have a cut-off to attendence 15 minutes before the event (I can think of several, but they are macabre.
cheers

RE: Sentence Clarification

It is ambiguous as written, but I believe the intent is 2).

RE: Sentence Clarification

(OP)
The initiator is a native English speaker (mostly likely American). So thats not the issue. Most of you got it right. Yes it is about an Online Web Seminar.

davidbeach:

Even though I understand what you are saying, I don't think it is right to apply that line of reasoning to any temporal context because time does not flow backwards. I cannot start at 11.00 AM and arrive at 10.45 AM of the same day.

Rest:
For the above mentioned reason(s),I eliminated #2 from the list. But since it pertained to Webinar I was not comfortable with my deduction ( for all the reasons ivymike pointed out). Hence I had to place a call to clarify the matter. And as it turned out #2 is the right answer.

So just wanted to take a second opinion on the issue. I appreciate the participation guys.

Regards,


RE: Sentence Clarification

BigH
I agree with you. It is #1 if phrased by an Indian.
For protocol and security reasons you are requested to arrive 15 minutes ahead of the schedule. Late comers will not be allowed. This is the message sent out.

RE: Sentence Clarification

I will be the happiest Indian Soul if up to is taken in the same context all over India.

Garment outlets, here, generally offer a discount of upto 50%. You walk in and end up with a mere 5% or 10%(and they won't conduct any free english coaching classes eitherwink).

Nevertheless, with an Indian heart, I would consider OP's choice as 1.

With Indian mind, I will take it as 2 for myself (I always smoke before a meeting)

BigH,

It is true but can you please suggest me what are the other expressions? I tried for 15 minutes but not getting any other thought. 'Costs through the end' seems to me as a redundant expression, somehow.

RE: Sentence Clarification

It is ambiguous.

It could mean what ctopher says, however it could also mean "up to" in the sense of "up to the last moment"

RE: Sentence Clarification

To me, it means #2.  Meeting is at 11:00, previous meeting leaves the room at 10:45, you can show up any time between 10:45 and 11:00 to claim a good seat (good view of the presentation and/or the clock, close to door and coffee, chair with armrests).

At least where I work, nobody will ever be at a meeting more than 15 minutes before it starts.  Actually, there's usually nobody at a meeting until 5 minutes after it starts.

RE: Sentence Clarification

@GunT:

all said and done, the statement:
 

Quote:

You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event.

simply means this, and there is no ambiguity:

You will be allowed to enter the meeting up to 10:45 AM.

The whole confusion arises because of the reader's focus on up to in combination with prior to. A careful reading will make it clear that there is no semantic ambiguity, no grammatical error; the statement is certainly not a paradox. Hehe.

It could very well have been said by any English-speaking bloke whatever.

RE: Sentence Clarification

The "event" is the meeting which starts at 11:00 AM.
"up to 15 mins prior to the event" means "no earlier than 10:45 AM".

Although it could easily have been worded without ambiguity or confusion, IMO, it is blatantly obvious that it means, "You may enter the meeting after 10:45 AM"

Quote (dcroasmu):

Actually, there's usually nobody at a meeting until 5 minutes after it starts.
If no-one is at the meeting, how can it be started. lol

panduru ... if there was no ambiguity this thread would not be here. smile

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Sentence Clarification

GunT,

I understood it to be #2 also.

Quote:

I cannot start at 11.00 AM and arrive at 10.45 AM of the same day.

Yes you can. Go west. May need to drive fast though across the time change line.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Sentence Clarification

@CorBlimeyLimey:

So, the clever wordplay did get you!

Folks, we are techies here. So here goes:

You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event.

=

You may enter the meeting up to (15 minutes prior to the event).

=

You may enter the meeting up to (10:45 AM).

Now where is the ambiguity?

RE: Sentence Clarification

Not knowing this was for an online seminar and not being provided further context, I also thought it was option 1.

If a person was trying to schedule a meeting ("enter a meeting") in some software, the software might have been coded to disallow last minute meetings to be scheduled.  Hence, "up to 15 minutes prior to the event" could imply one could not schedule a meeting after 10:45am.

Had the OP stated that this was for an online event, I would have jumped on option 2 as the majority had.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Sentence Clarification

The ambiguity is here. I will tell you the preceding sentence.

"As the 6th agenda item of next Tuesday's staff meeting, our Chairmand and CEO will put his pants down. You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the event."

RE: Sentence Clarification


panduru;

"So, the clever wordplay did get you!"
Not at all. As I stated in my post, "IMO, it is blatantly obvious that it means, "You may enter the meeting after 10:45 AM""

"Now where is the ambiguity?"
I personally don't see it, but the ambiguity is proven by the fact that other people selected meanings #1 & #3. Also, if there was no ambiguity this thread would not exist.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Sentence Clarification

@CorBlimeyLimey:
Prosit, to the thread!
cheers

RE: Sentence Clarification

Ambiguity is in the term "up to".

Replace the words "up to" with "by"
"You may enter the meeting by 15 minutes prior to the event."
This says enter before 10:45AM

Group the "up to" with 15 minutes.
"You may enter the meeting (up to 15 minutes prior) to the event."
This says enter after 10:45AM

My version: "You may enter the meeting "within" 15 minutes prior to the event."  Comments?

RE: Sentence Clarification

#2 with no ambiguity. "Up to" goes with the numerical value 15, not to some moment in time that is not even specified directly but must be calculated. I agree with David. Might be a better way to say it, but I don't see the ambiguity in how it was stated.

RE: Sentence Clarification

@whyun:

I was expecting this much earlier! I'm sure many had "resolved" the sentence that way, but didn't want to say it.

(up to 15 minutes prior) = What on earth?

In fact, it is not a proper clause at all.

When one tries to get a meaning as one reads the words, by the time you are at the end of up to 15 minutes, you think you got a clause there. Never do that. One has to read the whole sentence before trying to get the meaning.

RE: Sentence Clarification

If you know what time the actual meeting starts, why is there a need for any word between "meeting" and "15 minutes"

RE: Sentence Clarification

There is a difference between "up to 10:45" and "up to 15 minutes".

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Sentence Clarification

You can't enter a meeting which hasn't started though you can enter the room where the meeting will be held (or log on to the system) before it starts.

Hence the instructions might better be written as:
"You may enter the meeting room up to 15 minutes prior to the event."

Prior to that you can't get in or log on more than 15 minutes prior to the event.

Never mind the IT speak, be clear for us mortals and say what it is and use appropriate terms, none of this "virtual" stuff.

Nothing in the statement suggests that you are required to be there "before" it starts nor that you cannot arrive at any time from 15 minutes before the meeting until after the meeting has ended (for left over sandwiches).

I would like to think the message would more clearly show if it is:
  • a meeting (real): "enter the meeting room"
  • an online seminar: "log in to the online seminar"
  • a video conference: "log in to the video conference"
The point is perhaps that depending on the technology involved, time must be allowed to sort out the glicthes if the event is to get off on time.

Going to a room early.... are there coffee and sandwiches/biscuits/cookies waiting? chat gap with others?

Log in to a an online seminar.... why would I want to log in much before a minute or two before it starts? Just enough time to ensure the connection is ok and if it isn't, i have my excuse for missing technologised boredom.

For a video conference, well some prior setting up is almost always going to be required and there is often a chat gap in one video conference room or another while someone sends for IT to come and fix something. Then there is all that fussing with microphones and camera angles. There is always some one who isn't in camera shot (he came late or just in time) and where there's one you always worry who else is there, out of shot... the great man himself perhaps?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Sentence Clarification

Why not:

"Please be ready to start the meeting at 1100. You may arrive any time after 1045."

Unambiguous and polite.

RE: Sentence Clarification

The door to the meeting room is open between 10:45AM and 11:00AM. The door will be closed and locked at 11:01AM.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Sentence Clarification

Ahhh to hell with the meeting ... I'm staying here.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Sentence Clarification

I completely agree:

Quote (electricpete):

If 1) were the intended message, I would expected them to phrase it a little differently, for example:
"You must enter the meeting at least 15 minutes prior to the event"
  or
"You may enter the meeting at any time up until 15 minutes prior the event"

On the other hand, I don't have to rephrase anything to be comfortable with message 2).

RE: Sentence Clarification

quark - I had a time with the "costs up to June" concept.  To me that meant the costs (say of the project) as shown in that particular column were only through the end of May - up to June, but not including June.  Yet the costs included June - I could only surmise, then, that the mind that made up the column heading meant through the end of June.  So, up to included the end point.
   The macabre point I thought of was with respect to executions!  They don't want witnesses arriving a single minute before the main event as it may cause a commotion to the other witnesses.  Similarly, I suppose, with operas or symphonic concerts where they want everyone at and settled into their seat well before the first note is struck!
  Some of the words that threw me for a while - "cum", "vide", "intimate" - words that are used widely there but ones I had never seen before.  Then, of course, there is the pronunciation:  de-mo-cracy' rather than de-mo'-cracy.  Me-ta-bol'-ism rather than me-tab'ol-ism.
Very interesting place!
cheers

RE: Sentence Clarification

Continuing the cheerful discussion....the misuse(or over doing) of english and the susequent ghastliest accident (that is followed) is as real as any good horror movie that is said to be based on a real life story.

When we were taught punctuation in childhood, this was the example that showed the importance of placing punctuation marks.

The one line sentence from President, after the condemned prisoner applies for clemency reads like "kill him not, leave him". The careless telegraph man (or woman!)types the message "kill him, not leave him".

Even today, I am not sure why the telegrapher is not considered as a person with better english. If I had such powers, I could have sent the Judge for scripting english movies and the telegrapher to the Booker's prize panel.

The other day I was watching a dance movie. When the steet kid watches the heroine dancing, he exclaims (to his friend, another kid) "mane(?)! that's ma mov"

RE: Sentence Clarification

(OP)

Quote:

Yes you can. Go west. May need to drive fast though across the time change line.

Ashereng:

Good one. I thought that I covered all my bases when I posted, but you still found a chink in my armor. :)

My assumption was "In the same time zone" and when "Not travelling with relativistic speeds.

My fault. I should have stated my assumptions.

Assume Nothing!!

RE: Sentence Clarification

I have just composed a response and then realized that I was restating something that had already been stated several times.
The short version of several paragraphs:
You may parse the sentence so as to have either meaning.
The sentence is ambiguous.
respectfully

RE: Sentence Clarification

I disagree.

The #1 interpretation  ("One has to enter the meeting before 10.45 AM") relies on the parsing the sentence as follows:

You may enter the meeting up to [15 minutes prior to the event].

where [15 minutes prior to the event] is treated as a time.

Substituting for [ ] = [10:45] we would have:

"You may enter the meeting up to [10:45]"

Now look at the sentence I just wrote.  No-one would properly use "up to" to refer to a time in this manner. Instead they would use "until" or "by".

I conclude this interpretation #1 is not correct.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Sentence Clarification

In common usage, if not correct usage, "up to" may be used to indicate "Before, or prior to."
It is also used to mean "Less than or equal to."
Therin lies the ambiguity, in common usage if not correct usage.
Further, if the distinction between common usage and correct usage leads to this much controversy this is prima facia evidence of ambiguity.
respectfully

RE: Sentence Clarification

I'd say its incomplete moreso than ambiguous. If I were writing it, it would read: You may enter the meeting up to 15 minutes prior to the start of the event.

RE: Sentence Clarification

If I were writing it, it would read, "You may enter the meeting after 10:45 AM"

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Sentence Clarification

In the context of time, "up to" works fine with a duration.  It does not seem to flow naturally with a specific time.

Examples of use of "up to" with a duration:
* "It will take up to 3 hours to do the job."
* "You have up to 60 days to return the product for a full refund."
* "You can get into the theater up to 15 minutes before the start of the move."
All are perfectly natural and consistent with meaning #2

Examples of "up to" with a specific time:
* "Please be home up to 5:00."   The natural response to such statement would be: "HUH? Did you mean by 5:00?"
* "You may get into the store up to 9:00"  The natural response to such statement would be: "HUH? Did you mean up until9:00?
None of these sound right, and this is the useage we have to accept for meaning #1.

Maybe "sounds right" is too subjective.  I don't know what grammatical rule can be used to prove it. If the sounds-right threshhold is different for other people, I guess ambiguity is in the eye of the beholder.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: Sentence Clarification

I have decided to skip the meeting and watch television instead.
Regards

RE: Sentence Clarification


@waross :

You may very well watch television up to fifteen minutes prior to the archiving of this thread. Have a nice time.

RE: Sentence Clarification

Now I know why engineering meetings run so long....

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Sentence Clarification

eh... It has been 4 days since we started discussing about 15 minutes but the meeting didn't yet beginsad

RE: Sentence Clarification

GunT posted this meeting at 19:22 and it kicked of with dbooker630 at 19:25....
The meeting is still going on and we still haven't got beyond everyone re-stating the same thing in different units.
This is what comes of the latest management fad for "teamwork" without nominating a "team leader" to reduce everything to a single course of action and get everyone behind it whether they agree or not.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Sentence Clarification

So not withstanding all of the above,what was decided at the meeting?
B.E.

RE: Sentence Clarification

Nothing ... nobody showed up! They couldn't fathom out when to arrive.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Sentence Clarification

IT meetings are much easier.
They just have to agree what time is the best time to crash the server, for how long and how often, who will be the latest victim of the internet usage monitor and who will have "Hearts" and "Solitaire" removed from their machine.
All done in five minutes.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

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