Definition of an Engineer
Definition of an Engineer
(OP)
I recently brought my little ones to my office, to see where I work.
They have only seen me "colour" my drawing, and working on my computer at home, and seem to think that engineering consists of:
1) drinking a lot of coffee (yes, I am cutting back)
2) colouring (I do a lot of back checking and review)
3) surfing the web (I do a lot of design and sizing on my computer)
However, this descripton aside, how would you describe/define engineering to a group of Grade 10s? I don't mean the specific type of engineers, like a piping engineer works on a project to bring oil from Alaska to Texas, but more generic
What does an "engineer" do?
They have only seen me "colour" my drawing, and working on my computer at home, and seem to think that engineering consists of:
1) drinking a lot of coffee (yes, I am cutting back)
2) colouring (I do a lot of back checking and review)
3) surfing the web (I do a lot of design and sizing on my computer)
However, this descripton aside, how would you describe/define engineering to a group of Grade 10s? I don't mean the specific type of engineers, like a piping engineer works on a project to bring oil from Alaska to Texas, but more generic
What does an "engineer" do?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineering is the creation of artifacts to solve some problem or address some need of society.
This is kind of a broadest sense description, since, as we know, different types of engineers do different types of things in different fields. The context of the book(s) was partly on the difference between engineering and science, in that science is more often concerned with describing the world as it is, where as engneering is more often with changing some aspect of it.
Or, for another take (Per Dilbert)
Q: What do you do?
A: I'm an Engineer
Q: But what do you DO?
A: I'm assigned to a very important project.
Q: Yes, but WHAT do you DO?
A: That's enought about me.
Grins,
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Scientists investigate what exists.
Engineers create things that have never existed.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
What made me think of that was a girl I talked to once upon a time, a potential date. When she asked what I did, I told her I'm an engineer. Of course: "so you drive trains?" ... After hearing what I actually did and some silence, she responded, "so you have to go to college for that?"
Needless to say, we never hit it off.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
David
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Engineers apply science to real-world situations to create new or better things, systems, and processes."
or (a little more cynically) ...
"Engineers make stuff so that the marketing guys can get paid twice as much to sell it."
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Accountants of Technology"
RE: Definition of an Engineer
When was the last time I created anything new? Maybe I helped build a new facility. Ok.
Was it better? Naw, same as this other one. I keep hearing "Just use the (put name here) from the (old project name here) job.
Now that is interesting. What does it mean?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Most textbook/dictionary definitions of engineering are not specific enough to distinquish between engineers and other related professionals (for example, chemists). What really distinquishes engineers is the broad knowledge of other disciplines and math that enables one to put "technology to the test". I observed that accountants have a relationship with business professionals/owners that is analagous to the relationship between engineers and technology developers (scientists, etc.).
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Yeah, I've heard that too. I don't agree with it though.
I think the efficiency title belongs to daycare workers.
Daycare workers can do with $1 what anyone else can't do with less than $10.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Mathematicians make up numbers and relations between them.
Scientists data-mine the real world searching for patterns and predictions to be described by the aforementioned made-up-numbers.
Engineers use their enormous brains (and catalogs, codebooks, and computers) to apply said patterns to a practical effect in the actual world.
Machinists, drafters, and designers decipher the engineers' Mighty Words (and drawings and solid files) and physically manifest the design.
Any of these processes seen from a lay perspective will either appear to be impossibly difficult or ridiculously easy. But still, I think if you can't describe any given task to a 10 year old, you either don't know enough about it or need to learn more communication skills.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I was at a social engagement and somebody asked me what I did. I said that I was a Mechanical engineer. Then the person asked me where my garage was, perplexed I said it was in my backyard. Then the person said wow you do all of your work in your back yard?
Man life is tough some times…
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineers investigate what exists.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Usually an engineer is someone who drinks a lot of coffee, does a lot of coloring (green, yellow and red, most commonly), and surfs the web a lot.
That's certainly a descrption of a lot of engineers I know. I've cut down on the coffee in favor of dark chocolate-covered espresso beans.
On one floor of my office, the engineers are engaged in thinking up schedules, moving money from one place to another, thinking up plans for managing resources, and lots of other stuff they agonize over until the clerk-techs show them how to make a schedule and budget on the PM software. That's what engineers do.
Other engineers plan, design, build and operate things that make the world better or worse. Applying the accumulated technical knowledge of the last 12,000 years.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
An engineer is somebody who can have an empassioned arguement about the proper placement, ommission, alternative, and origin of a degree symbol:
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=152378
or, "professional nerds" if you'd prefer...
RE: Definition of an Engineer
to me, scientists delve into the universe looking for truth, engineers use 1/2 truths (we still use newtonian physics) to make things that we need.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Another version I've seen is that scientists are searching for the truth - engineers are searching for what works.
My personal favorite definition for an engineer is someone who will go through any amount of effort to avoid unnecessary work.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Well ... that encompass' a lot of people I know. Don't know if I would call them all engineers though. Hee Hee
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineers improve the quality of life
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I like BJC's definition "An engineer is someone who can do for a dollar what anyone else can do for two."
In my line of business there are lots of people who think they can be engineers by suggesting to connect randomly sized vessels by randomly sized pieces of pipe of randomly selected material and move liquid and gas around by randomly sized pumps and compressors... in the end it may or may not work, but in any case it will cost a fortune.
The difference between chemical engineers and other people that work in a chemical facility is that engineers can quantify.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Here's another I like that seems to define engineering: "Engineering is the art of modelling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance."
- Dr AR Dykes
British Institution of Structural Engineers, 1976.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
An Engineer either designs a new system or improves an existing system to solve a technological problem (s) utilizing available resources under some constraints.
Growing Population: Sociological Problem not a technological one.
Growing Traffic: Technological Problem
Widening the road: Improving an existing system ( A system can be a road, an automobile, a reactor etc.)
Building a new road: Designing a new system
Available resources: Workforce, materials etc.
Constraints: Available space, budget etc.
More humorous one:
Engineering is a child born out of the wedlock between Science and Economics.
Regards,
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Engineering is a child born out of the wedlock between Science and Economics."
Are you SURE that they got married beforehand?
This is my pithy definition of an engineer:
"Someone who figures out how to build stuff."
RE: Definition of an Engineer
they don't let me ring the bell,
but when the damn thing jumps the track,
guess who catches hell!!"
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Definitely. And what a long and torturous marriage that has been between the "Mars based Science" and "Venus based Economics" which left the "Earth base Engineering" completely bewildered!!
Mike: I am glad that you liked it.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Someone in another thread mentioned this.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineering is a branch of knowledge and as such is usually considered a science. The science by which the properties of matter and the sources of power in nature are made useful to mankind in structures, machines, goods and services.
An engineer would then be an individual specializing in one of the branches of engineering.
For those interested in a quasi-contradictory meaning: engineering time is the nonproductive time of a computer, devoted to maintenance and servicing.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I like the Dyke's quote, myself.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
I'm well aware of the dialectic around the concepts of science and the scientific methods. However, there are branches of engineering that are no doubt very close to the most exacting definitions of science.
For example: the deliberate modification or "engineering" of the gene structure, as in breeding improved plants or animal strains aka genetic engineering. Or the application of biology to engineering and electronics especially of brain functions to computers bionic engineering. Or, BTW, ergonomics and biotechnology.
GregLocock, any comment?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
More seriously, sure, some of what we do is scientific. There again some of what real scientists do (say Feynman diagrams) is pretty much rule of thumb, or orders of magnitude estimation, inside a conceptual framework.
Yet, vast lumps of what we do, that keeps aeroplanes flying, bridges up in the air, chemicals sploshing about, and engines going round, is based far more on experience and approximations than any thorough, deep, understanding of the way the systems behave in theory.
If I might borrow some leet slang, we, quite literally and meatphorically, /hack/ the physical world.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Following your line of thought I'd say that scientists do the same. The hallmark of a scientific theory is not what it seems to explain, but rather what it predicts.
More often than not it proceeds by a reverse use of logic. Sometimes predictions turn out to be wrong. But when they aren't as, for example, after the canonical Newton laws of mechanics F=ma, and F = GMm/r2 showed to suit nicely the predicted planetary orbital periods (an experimental verification), the reverse logic was used to confirm the truth of the expressions.
Sometimes a mathematical instrument is used to prove a theory. Take, for example, the Poisson statistics; it is used to "confirm" atomic random decay, although no one knows for sure how this decay really happens, not even if the decay is actually random.
But if the statistics "works", as in this case, the theory is considered valid.
No doubt the old idiom: the proof of the pudding is in the eating is used as the gauge of success of many a human undertaking.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Are you saying then that engineering is not unique, but is in fact science? And by extension, we are not engineers, but scientists?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Yes, engineering is considered by many an applied science. Visit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science
to get an idea of the general thinking on the subject.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I was prompting for your definition of an engineer.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
It was said that scientists build in order to learn and engineers learn in order to build. I believe that this old distinction is becoming blurred and exhausted. Science and engineering frequently overlap. Examples abound.
Engineering is now categorized as a subfield in the science kingdom.
This is perhaps because all engineers use scientific methods, and all of them theorize, each one in their particular field of expertise.
By accepting this new taxonomy I must admit that we are engineers in the sense I explained in my previous post and are part of the scientific family as well.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Although peripheral at first sight, a thread that contains postings touching the subject in hand: thread769-94507.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"If you can design something, build it, and it works, you are an engineer."
I may have missed it but I was surprised not to see zero mentioned in thread769-94507. Computers, working at the basic level with ones and zeros would be severly handicapted without their zeros. Zero and orders of magnitude, does order of magnitude have any meaning in regards to Roman notation?
I am sure there are many other examples of the importance of zero in everything from basic arithmetic on up.
yours
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
waross mentioned zero and roman notation.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
The point I was trying to make (not very well I guess) was that
1> I didn't think that Roman numerals had a zero and
2> It may be hard to express orders of magnitude in Roman numerals.
I may be wrong on one or both counts.
respectfully
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I spend a lot of time messing with computers, surfing the web, and drinking coffee, but I also:
Travel a good bit.
Over see others doing maintenance work on process machinery
Gather data from instruments and run calculations on that data (more computer time).
Ride helicopters out to off shore oil platforms.
Climb up into the drive train of wind turbines
Visit refineries, LNG plants, and chemical plants.
Oversee the attachment very large and heavy chunks of steel to cranes and fly that steel through the air.
It is really quite fun!
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Also, one of my college instructors made an interesting point:
"There were no flaws in constructions prior to the existance of engineers."
RE: Definition of an Engineer
What the hell does that even mean?
Hg
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Trouble is, people have been improving the way they do things (lighting fires, killing mammoths, making pots) for just about as long as they have been people.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
That said, plenty of trial and error still seems necessary. I guess we just reduce it to the point where we can (hopefully) attract investors.
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
A scientist asks, "How does this work?"
An engineer asks, "Given a basic idea of how this works, how can I use that knowledge to solve these particular problems?"
The arts major asks, "Would you like any fries with that?"
Little did we know that less than 20 years later in Toronto, the engineer would often as not be asking the arts major "Where to, sir?" and the arts major would be asking how much the cab fare would be!
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I have watched this post to see if anybody corrects you and so far nobody has.
An engineer does not drive a train, he/she runs it.
As a machinist does not drive a lathe, he/she runs it.
B.E.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I stand corrected.
I will now have to post a response to the author of "How to run a lathe" and tell him the word is "Operate"
B.E.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I think
Engineer = inginuity
An engineer should have/has the ability to apply abstract scientific principles to a real world problem to creat a working solution. At least initially, then the design/process is refined/optimised by the engineer finally resulting in the creation of these empirical laws that we all love so much!!
I think engineers (engineering scientists or scientific engineers)have a tremendous amount to offer considering the depth and breadth of our technical education and the global overview of processes our work gives us.
I liked the above post asking what we dont do!!
Cheers
RE: Definition of an Engineer
About applying scientific principles, one of my text books says something like "engineers apply science to solve problems, but when no science exists, the problem must be solved anyway". Very much true.
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"mechanical engineers"
"civil engineers"
"electric engineers"
and a few more. Then there were computers and there were "computer engineers", "software engineers" and a few more.
Now however it seems just about everyone doing some kind of half-creative work is something-something engineer. There are now interior design engineers, exterior design engineers, TV installation engineers, all sorts of things pop up on people's business cards... I dunno, just a few years ago they were reffered to as "the interior decorator", "the gardner" and "the cable guy". Or, very often, just by the "kid next door" refference. A half-drunken fella standing in the studio mixing what some pimply teenagers are ranting and trashing guitars is some kind of an engineer. Audio engineer? Acoustic engineer? I heard such references. Then there's human resources engineers, sanitary conditions engineers, and I swear soon the lady taking my 1EUR for use of a public loo will be called a "public conveniences engineer" and will have you subpoenad for reffering to her in any other way.
I think that cartoon about superheros put it right: "In a land where everybody is Super, nobody is". I DO sometimes wonder myself, who IS an engineer, and who isn't, regardless of the title they have...
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineering societies that govern engineering (note the term govern) serve the public interest - not the engineer members.
Engineers need an advocacy group, distinct and separate from the "governing" societies, to serve our interests. Until that happens, we will be second tier citizens.
In the meantime, how do we define what an "engineer" is? Because without it, there will be more "TV Installation Engineers" and such coming soon.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Having said that, I supose its possible that the "TV Installation Eningeers" lobby could get the laws passed such that they would have to be licensed, and therefore would be "real" engineers. No gains made after all.
Around here the real estate industry has somehow gotten it so that any flake who sells real estate (no offense intended) is a Realtor, with a cap R. I don't see that for any other profession.
Life, its a messy business.
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
In Ontario we have http://www.ospe.on.ca/ as an advocacy group for Engineers. This is separate from our regulation group http://www.peo.on.ca/ although the former is an "offspring" of the latter.
I do not personally know of too many engineers that are members of the OSPE however, possibly because it is still a fledgling group (only around for less than 5 years I think).
Cheers,
CanuckMiner
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Are they in favor of the legal requirement to have a PE to be an Engineer and to be called an Engineer?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
All the computers, cell phones, cars, planes, etc... that everyone is using exists because of people doing engineering. All the cool high-tech "toys" that people like to buy. The machines that harvest food and mass produce food and other products for us to live are all created by engineering.
I know everyone here knows this, but perhaps tell someone that if everything that had been dealt with by an engineer disappeared, there wouldn't be much left in our modern world. Then you can point out how engineers were involved in these products/processes.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I am no longer a member of the OSPE so don't know their stance on having professional engineers only as "engineer". However, as an advocacy group charged with the task of promoting the engineering profession, I would think that they would want to (need to?) be "elitist" in their approach. For my own part, the only thing that they promoted during my time with them was the fact that you can get cheaper home & auto insurance if you are a member. I found this to be a rather insulting stance from an organization trying to promote "my profession". I may become a member again in the future if they can get their sh.., er, stuff together.
The PEO on the other hand is very clear that only professional engineers can use the title "engineer" and have it trademarked. There are some limited industrial exemptions. There are documents at the PEO website to that effect, but I cannot directly link you to them as the web address does not change while navigating the site.
Cheers,
CanuckMiner, P.Eng.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"An engineer? I had grown up among engineers, and I could remember the engineers of the twenties very well indeed: their open, shining intellects, their free and gentle humor, their agility and breadth of thought, the ease with which they shifted from one engineering field to another, and, for that matter, from technology to social concerns and art. Then, too, they personified good manners and delicacy of taste; well-bred speech that flowed evenly and was free of uncultured words; one of them might play a musical instrument, another dabble in painting; and their faces always bore a spiritual imprint. "
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I got myself a software called "Language Engineering Dictionary". As I'm not a native English speaker, I thought this was a dictionary of technical English which would be most helpful with my work, as most of the stuff I have to write or read is in English (even though I'm in my homeland where English isn't the 1st language).
But it's not.
It's a tool for "language engineering".
Come ON.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineers use scientific principles to ensure that what they design will function properly and safely, yet also make sure it's not more costly than it needs to be.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
That description isn't really unique. A responsible builder could also be the carpenter framing my house.
Do you agree?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I'm not against the idea as such, I've just never run into an Institute (or equivalent) that I'd desperately want to be a member of, to misquote Groucho.
To give one example. In the UK as a broad brush the engineering institutions are largely concerned with providing an ever increasing number of graduates into industry so that our wages remain low due to competition from the untrainedor inexperienced.
Meanwhile on the other side of the Atlantic most state PE organisations have non-compete clauses so that our wages remain low due to 'competition' from the inefficient.
Good innit?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
This sounds like a good topic for a new thread.
I am still trying to find a good definition of what an engineer is. It seems that after 80 replys here, people still can't agree on what an engineer is, does. If we can't agree, how is the general public going to understand what we do?
When we say doctors, we typically think of the GP or surgeon, even though there are a whole host of other doctors who do very different things.
We we say engineers, we can't think of one or two definitive images. Hence, people don't understand us, what we do. Can we blame them for using engineer after "convenience engineer", "audio installation engineer", "office efficiency engineer" and "garage door installation engineer"?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
the ability to reasonably predetermine or predict an outcome.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
That is the beauty of it. The doctors/medical profession focus the definition of their profession to one or two definitive images. This makes it easier for the general public to understand what they do and appreciate the value they provide.
Engineers/engineering's does not have a cohesive definitive image. What wepresent is so fratured that the general public is confused, and so they dismiss the value that we offer. What the general public sees is "If they can't tell me what they do, then it must not be very important."
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
i'm from the caribbean. i'm not staying here as i mentioned in another thread. its funny how they always complain that the young people don't want to stay here or come back once we're gone but when we do they proceed to do nothing with us. we have tons of people on my island with engineering degrees as well. i'm an operator at a power plant on temp contract; i hate it and am not really suited for it. its the best i can do now though. i'm considering other career options once i move to canada other than engineering.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Im not from Canada, but to my understanding, in Canada they have a strong Engineering Society. However, I do know your disappointment of loosing your Engineering Identity to technicians or even to the guy how cleans buildings (janitorial engineering).
Tobalcane
"If you avoid failure, you also avoid success."
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineers design and build everything from computer chips and polymers to car engines, dams, bridges and spaceships. They combine technology with their strong backgrounds in math and science to create safe and reliable systems and processes that benefit all of society. Virtually every product and service that we enjoy today can be directly attributed to the work of an engineer.
There are many types of engineers. The typical minimum requirement for an engineer is a bachelor’s degree in one of the basic engineering disciplines, such as civil, mechanical, electrical, chemical, etc. Many engineers go on to advanced degrees in more specific fields (aerospace, oil and gas, computer software, plastics, automotive). In many circumstances, engineers are required to be licensed to do certain types of work. The job functions of an engineer can vary greatly from intensive design calculations, to hands-on R&D, to supervising large construction projects.
An engineering degree gives a person a well rounded technical education. Some other professions prefer and/or require an engineering background. Many astronauts, fighter pilots, and plant managers have engineering backgrounds that are crucial to their abilities to perform their job responsibilities.
That’s how I would explain it to a group of kids.
"I have had my results for a long time, but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them." Karl Friedrich Gauss
RE: Definition of an Engineer
We won't tell them what usually happens 5/10/20 years down the road.
=====================================
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
I answer, they make people well again.
No offense nate, as accurate and complete as your definition of what an engineer does, it is still confusing to me.
I would prefer a more succinct definition like "a doctor makes people well again", for engineers.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Do you think it is possible to arrive at such a definition as diverse a group as we are? Obviously we would have to find a definition that applies to all engineers and excludes all other professions.
What is the common denominator for engineers? I think that it would have to be design. Yes, other people design things, such as artists, but there is a difference in the process, so we have to distinguish from that as well.
In a short simple definition then, I would say that "engineers are technical designers". Whether it be a product, a system, or a process, engineers in their true sense are designers of something. True, many engineers do non-engineering things such as managing, leading improvement teams, supervising construction crews, etc. but those activities I believe are outside of our engineering definition. Just as I'm sure doctors do other things besides making people well again like managing and coaching little league.
"I have had my results for a long time, but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them." Karl Friedrich Gauss
RE: Definition of an Engineer
This I see as the problem. We are a diverse group, and we each want our specialty to be included in the definition of "engineering".
Not all doctors make people well again.
I think what we need is to single out one or two aspect of engineering as our "definitive image". Everyone just live with that and promote it. Then, we can market that to the general public without confusing them.
By the way, if we define engineering as "technical designers", then we really are NOT engineers. We are technicians or designers.
I was thinking something more along the lines of of a catchy marketing slogan.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineers make life as we know it today possible.
Engineers advance and support society.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Applies to all fields of engineering.
Excludes non-engineers.
How can anyone argue with that?
"I have had my results for a long time, but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them." Karl Friedrich Gauss
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Nah, sounds a bit dorky.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Very easily ... it' not true! There are many non-engineer members of Eng-Tips.
The criteria is "INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS" ... not Professional Engineers.
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
"I have had my results for a long time, but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them." Karl Friedrich Gauss
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I don't believe it is possible to give a simple one or two line definition for what Engineering Professionals or Professional (or Licensed, or Certified) Engineers actully do. The levels and roles played within different (or even similar) disciplines are just too varied ... as per the Doctor analogies.
In the simplest terms I can think of, an EP is someone who possesses a skillset (physical and/or academic) which allows him/her to perform an engineering function as a livelihood.
Some interesting definitions are offered at
h
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
In my post about the Eng-Tips members, I was assuming this thread applied to the broad definition of engineers: those who are doing engineering work, degreed engineers, engineering professionals (whatever that difference may be), and licensed PE's. I was not referring to PE's only since I am not a PE either. The only "engineers" I remember being excluded from our definition were carpet installation "engineers", lawn mowing "engineers", etc.
Cheers.
"I have had my results for a long time, but I do not yet know how I am to arrive at them." Karl Friedrich Gauss
RE: Definition of an Engineer
My apologies to you if my interpretation was incorrect.
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
One who uses physics,materials science and applied
mathtematics to create and maintain assemblies of
physical materials that provide a usefull function.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
My neighbor (a "people person") once said that my job is easy because I only work with inanimate objects. I didn't strangle her. :)
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Yes, they are. Programmers, on the other hand, are not.
Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Design isn't strictly accurate either, a lot of engineers spend most of their time analyzing things (e.g. stress, cfd, reliability, safety, etc) or in either how to build them / maintain them as above more so than actually designing them in the first place. Plus from what I've seen in the US a lot of the actual designers aren't considered Engineers, as they don't have a degree/PE etc.
Plus on the topic of engineers needing to be PE or Chartered to use the title: all I can say is that most of the best 'engineers' I worked with didn't even have full degrees (mostly apprenticeships & the equivalent of trade school) let alone PE; and some of the worst engineers I've worked with were Chartered.
Whilst the principle of having to meet some minimum level of education/experience in order to use the title Engineer is good in theory, I would argue the current Chartered/PE/EIT way of doing things probably excludes too many good engineers and still allows some useless ones in.
Nate2003 effort on 6 June is better than anything I could probably come up with but as you’ll guess from what I’ve put, I wouldn’t totally agree.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
How's this for a list of requirements (Good Lord knows we need guidelines or we'll drive off the road)?
1. Needs to be generally correct, ONLY.
2. Will hold a child's attention past the fifth word.
3. Fifteen words or less (preferably less).
4. Most listeners will not need to ask for definitions/followups explainations (provided #2 hasn't been violated .... the attention, not the child).
Of course, some of our explainations would probably meet grounds for prosecution.
Does this help?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Thanks.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
But precision is the engineers currency.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Production Engineer - assembles various resources to arrive at a product
Process Engineer - assembles various inputs to arrive at a system
Mechanical / Electrical / Civil etc Engineer- assembles various components to arrive at an assembly / product
Design Engineer - assembles various calculated subroutines / portions of conclusions / concepts / proved by science and technology to size a component or a product - which applies to all designs
procurement Engineer - needless to define - obvious from the above definitions
This is my understanding ...
mechatronic
RE: Definition of an Engineer
What about engineers who come up with novel solutions? Do they simply "assemble" a new solution from bits and pieces of common knowledge. If yes, then that is also what scientists do - they build upon smaller building blocks.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
Lawyer : Reader of contracts.
Pharmacist: Dispensor of medicines.
Doesen't seem complete does it??
In fact most people do these things themselves to some
degree. They heal themselves, study credid card applications, pick pain relievers.
Most people also engineer things. Build shelves for
the laundry room, table for the patio, design entertainment
center, pick accesories for their computers.
So a definition based on the work done is insuffecient to
qualitatively demark a profession.
It is in fact a certain competency in particular studies
that define the professional not what he does.
Engineer - Physics,Materials,Applied Math.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
So, what is your 3-4 word definition of engineer?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
No businessperson wants to pay more (overhead) than is necessary (impacts profit). Nor should he, frankly.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I must apoligize for forgetting the basic question.
I believe I am caught up in the attempt to define
engineering
in order to seperate it in some meaningful fashion from
anybody who is just handy with tools.
The poster wanted to know how to describe the work to
a group of 10th graders.
I will try an answear to that question.
Engineers study how to best use resources to make
usefull things by applying the study of physical science and
math.
ashereng: Engineer: Builder of stuff
Quantum50:
I am afraid I don't what your critique is meant to convey.
You describe a person who wastes time on issues that have
no monetary benefit to the overall design. Sort of a person
lost in the corners of a design and missing the big picture.
I see nothing in my definition of an engineer that would
correlate with this idea. In my experience it is the
people lacking real skills as I defined them, that waste
the resources and time in a project by lacking the ability
to analyze with insight the problems at hand.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
The Engineering is about application of Science ,
Science is study of nature and arriving at conclusions based on what is proved / observed repetitively in various places and times and people who are invloved in this are sceintists
Engineers apply science , they are application oriented while scientists are study oriented , again it does not mean Engineers dont study
When I said "assembly" probably I should have added more - assembling or bringing some thing together or correlate the knowledge ...
Process Engineers as you say bring desired effects , to do that they need to some way or the other the above exercise ..
Having said that, if some Engineers are bringing some novel solutions , again they are doing the same exercise .
(improving some thing by applying science)
Again I must agree these are my understanding , and expression of any understanding needs very good command over langauge which I lack
secondly you must agree " words are necessary evils"
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
A.GEDEÃO (Portugal)
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Seems like a chicken egg situation.
Which comes first?
Defining who is an engineer would help to define what an engineer was.
Vice Versa defining what an engineer is would certainly help define who was an engineer.
I'm inclined to think 'what an engineer is' should come first but am not totally sure.
Seems everyone skews their definition of engineer depending on what their specialty is, or even on their qualification/experience/background.
Perhaps only a suitably knowledgeable non engineer could define it? However given we’re supposedly a secretive profession where would be find such an individual who wasn’t tainted by their own perspective?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I like aardvarkdw's descripition the best so far. Not too wordy, does not mention science (engineering is often ahead of science), and includes shaping the physical world.
A star.
Regards,
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
An Engineer is someone who:
- Has an engineering education,
- Applies math, science and technology,
- Creates and designs things.
and who may have optional attributes, such as:
- Creates things that are cool
- Makes sure things are done, takes charge, takes responsibility
- Problemsolves/troubleshoots
- Uses precision calculations and rules of thumb
- Learns and stays up to date with technology
- Browses Eng-Tips.com and drinks coffee.
Catchy slogans or sleek one-liners do not come to mind but I think they are not needed.
On the topic of "Designers" vs "Engineers" in the US. Most of the US "Designers" are computer draftsmen with no engineering education. They, however, can design things just like engineers. That does not mean they are engineers though. Also, it does not mean that engineers cannot be considered designers in a broader sense of the word.
Do we need a certification, PE and such? I think large companies have taken care of that already. It is not possible to get an engineering job to make cars, planes and trains without a degree. Sure, you can make a car and sell a few of them and call yourself an engineer. Like it is possible to mix some concoction of herbs and chemicals and sell it to cure health problems. Then you can call yourself a doctor. Until you get caught. Doctors may have the same problem too when someone with a PhD in English calls himself/herself a doctor. But do they care? They know that those doctors won't practice on their sick clients, so why should we care about TV installation engineers?
Sure, if TV installation jobs were the only ones that were available then we would be all up in arms about who has the proper qualifications and who gets to do this important job of TV installation. But luckily this is not the situation in most places. My condolences to the person from the Caribbean, it seems to be a major concern there.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
All of the drafters/designers/engineers I worked with in the UK who didn't have a degree did have considerable education in the form or apprenticeships/trade school (HNC/HND) etc.
I've come across at least one guy here in the US whose only formal training was apparantly drafting no real engineering.
Maybe that is part of the difference.
On the topic of the definition though, Supercar I like your attempt but I've known Engineers who spent most of their time analysing/testing other peoples designs, not so much designing them themselves. Whilst part of the development process is this really 'creating and designing'?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
On the other hand, I am a Test Engineer myself. So now what should I make out of this definition?! LOL! You've got me here.
My excuse is that I have an *ability* to design the things that I test. But is this the case with all test engineers? Could a guy be a testing authority, an experienced and knowledgeable engineer, but have no clue how the thing is made and how it is working? I bet not. I think you have to know what it is in order to analyze and test it. How it is made, how it should not be made, how it works and how it may fail. So maybe we should change it to "Has knowledge and ability to design and create things”?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
In Hindu mythology: Creator (Lord Brahma), Preserver (Lord Vishnu) and Destroyer (Lord Siva) could all be considered as Engineers!!!
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
From personal experience, I beg to differ with you. Our engineers spend enough time reworking things that they designed that it all amounts to trial and error. I have found that a layman usually has a more vested interest in designing something that will work the first time as they have fewer resources with which to experiment, whereas an engineer is getting paid resonably well to try out more unusual ideas in an attempt to do something better that often times does not meet with expectations.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
One of the questions was of a behavioral type. Something like what would I do if I had a disagreement about some engineering problem. I said, well, engineering problems are simpler than most other problems -- you just apply the right formulas, do the math and the answer is clear. End of argument and disagreement. They looked at me and at each other and then either rolled their eyes or smirked. I failed badly.
Not only did my answer was too simplistic, but it also demonstrated my novice understanding of the engineering process used in that department. Obviously, if there is a disagreement, then a simple answer us usually not sufficient. But also, those engineers rarely had to do any engineering calculations in their jobs. So suggesting that some problem could be solved by simple math was like heresy to them. Later I found out that some of those guys did not even know the simple engineering formulas that the text books had about their gadgets. Many of them never had to open any text books to learn do their jobs -- just beat on the supplier until the damn thing works. Unfortunately to some, and fortunately to others, this is often the essence of engineering at the OEM level.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
You are very right in saying giving straight answers will never be sufficient to bring out "complex" problems existing in various departments.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
The man below says: "Yes, you're in a hot air balloon, hovering 30 feet above this field."
You must be an engineer" says the balloonist.
"I am" replies the man. "How did you know."
"Well," says the balloonist, "everything you have told me is technically correct, but it's no use to anyone."
The man below says "you must be in management."
"I am" replies the balloonist, "but how did you know?"
"Well," says the man, "you don't know where you are, or where you're going, but you expect me to be able to help. You're in the same position you were before we met, but now it's my fault."
RE: Definition of an Engineer
In the past two years i have not had to rely on any of the math or science i took in school.(except for maybe 1%). I feel i have wasted my 7 years at night school and plenty of cash to be a CAD operator for the rest of my days. I am now very cautious when someone calls me and says they have a great engineering opportunity for me!
So I wonder...what the heck am I? Bored out of my mind thats for sure.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Regards,
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
My point was back in the UK there didn't seem to be quite the same level of distinction/prejudice between Drafters/Engineers/Designers etc (but my experience was a little limited). So cksh you could call yourself an engineer without worrying too much if you really were one.
I'm not saying it was better, or worse, just different.
If you're getting paid as an Engineer and are happy then no problem, if you're bored though then I guess you could either ask for some responsibility/tasks/position that would interest you or look around.
I'd love to be using CAD rather than project managing and writing specs, requirements, test plans, procedures etc. Wanna swap?
From an English dictionary
Compact Oxford English Dictionary
engineer
• noun 1 a person qualified in engineering. 2 a person who maintains or controls an engine or machine. 3 a person who skillfully originates something.
• verb 1 design and build. 2 contrive to bring about.
It’s only the online compact version, I don’t have shelf space for the full version!
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I graduated from a major university with a BSME in 1984. I was given very little practical knowledge to take to the workplace (since then went to grad school for MSME). When I got into the workplace as a naive newgrad, it became clear that the engineer was expected to be able to the job of the draftsman, designer, engineer, buyer, technician,... So I quickly learned to do layout design and drafting and learned it quite well.
Since then the draftsmen have dissappeared. There are still designers (and I' glad there are!) but it seems that there is always so much work that the engineers are doing almost full-time layout design, sometimes more than the designers (who are doing drawings). Now I earn close to $90k US and am doing drawings of brackets! Where's the logic? Where's the economy? While I'm drawing brackets my analytical skills are wasting away. The employers want their cake and they want to eat it to! Don't they realize that it makes no sense to have experienced, well-educated engineers on the tube full-time doing layouts and drawings?
Tunalover
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Lots of people have said design and build... But testing is the third leg of the stool in the creation process. (How do you know your design or improvement has worked???)
KENAT,
From you earlier post, I think you are associating "build" to closely to manufacturing. "Build" could simply mean prototype, turn a concept on paper into a tangible product.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I got into a big hoo-hah over that one with a firm that typically designs for another field. They don't much care about standard code details because they just build what they want and test it. They just couldn't understand that we just don't have that option with a bridge. In theory, we could test individual details, but someone would have to include the money for such testing in the contract, and that means convincing the state or municipality that the epense for such testing is justified rather than simply following the code, etc., etc.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Maybe it's based on my experience. At my last place in aerospace/defence in the UK I didn’t build prototypes.
We had an experimental work shop who did that. We’d give them drawings (or at a push sketches & verbal instructions) and they’d produce the prototype. Not to say I didn’t spend a lot of time there helping them answering questions and clarifying things but I couldn’t claim to have built them myself. The one time I got more hands on was when it was something that the customer (usually RAF) had to assemble or something which interfaced to existing equipment., in which case I would help do the ‘trial fit’.
Maybe something like:
An engineer carries out all or part of the process of designing, overseeing manufacture, testing, in service/through life support and disposal of a product.
However having re-read that sentence it kind of sucks so perhaps someone smarter than I could come up with a more eloquent way of stating the same.
Ken
RE: Definition of an Engineer
An engineer: this person will produce the most with the least amount of efford and recieve the most amount of stars in exactly the correct time whilst enjoying a nice cup of coffee and deligating his troops.
Or in other words: (The image of the duck racing in the pond.) The secret of live is to keep cool and calm on top but to paddle like crazy underneath.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
That brings us to a fork in the road: Engineers: People who live off their "ingenuity", versus "engineers", people who cause engines and machines to run, like that locomotive engineer of the facilities engineer who maintains and operates the sytems of a large building.
old field guy
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Not a defintion but
You know when you're an engineer when...
... you make 4 sets of drawings (with seven revisions) before making a bird bath.
... you find yourself at the airport on your vacation studying the baggage handling equipment.
... everyone else on the Alaskan cruise is on deck peering at the scenery and you are still on a personal tour of the engine room.
FOETS
"social drinker with a golfing problem"
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Patricia Lougheed
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RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineer is the one who designs dreams and nightmares
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineer (en je 'nir) n. An individual who is able to produce, with prolific abandon, streams of incomprehensible formulae based upon extremely vague assumptions and theories based on debatable figures acquired from inconclusive tests and incomplete experiments, carried out with instruments of problematic accuracyby persons of doubtful reliability and rather dubious mentality with the particular anticipation of disconcerting and annoying everyone outside of their own profession.
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: Definition of an Engineer
If it is proven by practice - it is science.
If it is built - it is engineering.
If it works - it is probably good engineering.
Putting Human Factor Back in Engineering
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Just my humble opinion.
Doug
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I know the general public has a hard time explaining what we do, but it sounds like we have a hard time as well!
In my time, I've seen engineers doing work of accountants, managers, mechanics, etc., not to mention accross engineering disciplines (e.g. ME's doing the work of EE's, ChE's doing ME work, etc., etc.) However, I never see this process in reverse, at least not successfully. I think "professional problem solver" is good.
If you have an engineering problem, you get an engineer. An accounting problem, get an accountant. A medical problem, get a doctor. But if you have to pick just one to solve any type of problem, an engineer is your best bet (not that there's any bias here
RE: Definition of an Engineer
You're right though engineers end up picking up a lot of other business duties, we actually got rid of our sales team at my last place and the engineers & project managers (most of whome were engineers) took most of it on with input from the MD.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
True enough about the doctor thing. Maybe not the best analogy. My wife was an ER nurse and that job requires an urgent decisiveness not often associated w/ engineers.
I guess one reason it's so hard to put a simple paragraph down to describe engineering is the breadth of knowledge and experiences that it encompasses. Also, one of the reasons that it is so rewarding.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Definition of an Engineer
An Engineer is a person who passes as an exacting expert on the basis of being able to turn out with prolific fortitude infinite strings of incomprehensible formulas calculated with microscopic precision from vague assumptions which are based on debatable figures taken from inconclusive experiments carried out with instruments of problematic accuracy by persons of questionable mentality and doubtful reliability for the avowed purpose of annoying and harassing a hopelessly ignorant group of esoteric fanatics referred to as lawyers.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Back when working on aircraft weapons systems we'd sometimes refer to other peoples products as targets to annoy them. Not just things designed by civvies but mechanical things like tanks and nautical like ships.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
A few sources for quotes, maxims, etc. re engineering:
Requirements Engineering Proverbs, Sayings, Maxims, & Quotations -- http://ea
A Selection of Engineering Quotes -- collected by Andy Vann http://members.tripod.com/~mcleon/engquotes.htm
And finally, one that's perhaps too relevant to many Eng-Tips threads:
Ken
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Engineers: Those who takes R&D's ideas and turns them into a product that can by manufactured cheap enough for Sales, good enough for Quality and Marketing, and do so quick enough for Management, in a documented manner to cya for when the unknown occurs.
Not perfect but it dipicts those around me at least.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Scientists or the engineers?
Engineers or the Marketing?
RE: Definition of an Engineer
An engineer is one who applies that theory or law and has to sign off on the drawing.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
The single skill that engineers (and scientist) have that is unique to thier proffesion is the ability to quantify physical phenomena. This allows the actions/reactions of systems to be accuratly predicted. Without that ability all systems would have to be designed with a trial-and-error approach; complex, large, expensive, or potentially dangerous systems would not be feasable.
In my mind engineers and scientists have a similar core skill set, they just have different applications.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
-Freeman Dyson
I guess thats why I'm and engineer, few original ideas but a hell of a problem finder/solver.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
If you can figure out a potential application you are a designer/inventor.
If you can do the above and build it. You are an engineer.
Regards,
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
The application of science to solve problems or design projects to be safe and efficient.
A scientist discovers the facts
An engineer knows how to use these facts.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Regards,
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Good point SnTMan.
The ancient Romans used Arc Bridges even before they understood about stress distribution and solid mechanics.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Like, they had BRONZE in the BRONZE AGE:)
Regards,
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Each living organism can be considered a very complex engineered system and no "engineer" was involved in their creation. Are ants, bees and beavers considered engineers for structures they build?
Definition of engineer, in my opinion, should be restricted to humans (or beings more intelligent than humans) who understand fully or partially the principles involved in the stuff they build. Also, in my opinion, stuff they build do not necessarily have to work all the time.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Boy am I glad to hear that! I think most of us would agree.
Or, to borrow a quote (source unknown), "Sucess is great, but you don't LEARN anything from it."
RE: Definition of an Engineer
“Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.”
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere”
“The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits.”
“The only real valuable thing is intuition.”
“Confusion of goals and perfection of means seems, in my opinion, to” characterize our age
Cheers
luis
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I completely disagree with you. Those that used arches were doing it by trial and error - that is not engineering.
There should be a scientific basis to everthing we do, even if it is just in the way we prove it works.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
As I said, if the science exists, use it. It will always, when available, point us in the right direction and REDUCE, but not necessarily eliminate trial and error.
If it exists.
Regards,
Mike
RE: Definition of an Engineer
There should be a scientific basis to everthing we do, even if it is just in the way we prove it works."
Hmm. I got recalibrated on this, several times over.
Firstly, da Vinci invented useful stuff that he couldn't analyse.
Secondly, engineers built many aqueducts, witout being able to calculate an arch.
And finally
every day engineers spend thousands of CPU seconds calculating the performance of vehicles, based on empirical descriptions of tire performance.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
It's silly to pretend everything engineers do comes from scientific theory.
Most of the time we do what we know works based upon experience.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
David
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Actually, I think some of you are not giving credit where it is definitely due.
Just because their drawings and calculations may not have survived the centuries (no weekly tape backups for their work?) I don't believe for a moment that it was pure luck that had the ancient engineers creating feats of engineering--some that have yet to be duplicated today.
For example, do a little reading on the Pantheon, built in 100 A.D. It was the largest dome on the planet for more than 1300 years...and it used portland cement in the concrete. You don't think there were engineered drawings for that?
Or the pyramids, where a piece of paper won't fit between the cracks of the stones, most of which are in the 1-ton+ range and we can't build like that today, even given our computer power. The tunnels that run through them, which meet perfectly with each other deep inside - these were planned and engineered, not just haphazardly put together with a lucky outcome.
And the use of ceramic pipe to carry water, the asphalt & lead roof on which the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were built, etc? So much survived to this day, and now it is our "engineering" that is causing its decay...think of the Sphinx, which is crumbling from air pollution?
The technology that existed then isn't substandard to that available now, it's just different. Before calulators, we used slide rules with great accuracy. Before autocad, we used drafting methods such as bisecting an angle. How many engineers graduating this year have the ability to draw a two-point perspective? Probably very few. I'm not that old (really...) but I learned all of that in high school. Now they just turn students loose on a cad machine - is that progress?
How much of our current "engineering" will survive 500 years from now, and what will future engineers think of our efforts? Will they laugh and say we weren't engineers because we weren't using the alien technology that they have in the future? Are we that hypocritical to think that just because we now have computers to do our calculations that our work is superior to that of 2,000 years ago?
Because the crumbling bridges and poor roads in Michigan remind me daily that we have a long way to go...
Here is a thread with a lot of interesting comments:
http://www
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Science and math are big components of engineering today and has been for at least few hundred years but I consider engineers, in a more general sense, as people who can define a need then make attempts to satisfy that need. Even the ones who fail are engineers too.
I've been in structural engineering (so far) so my opinions may be a bit biased but engineers not only know how to solve problems but more essentially know how to define the problem. For most structural applications, it takes me three to five times more in defining the parameters than to solve the problem.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Hi michfan,
Very good points, and thank you for that link. Greg Locock wrote something very interesting in that link:
"Gaudi designed his cathedral by hanging appropriate weights from an overhead framework. The threads that were used to suspend the weights gave the line of action of the forces, so should form the centre of each column. It is not inconceivable that the Romans, or some Gothic cathedral masons, used a similar technique."
I saw Gaudi's system of weights in Barcelona it was very interesting, and I agree with Greg, that it is possible that the ancient Romans (or for that matter the ancient Egyptians, Mayas and Incas) used similar methods.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Pretty simple case - no?
He couldn't. He came up with the wrong answer. I think it was worked out correctly in the 17th or 18th century, and at a guess by Euler.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I must disagree with you sir, although you sound like the quality manager at my last place!
I've encountered at least one system that we were unable to successfully analyze given our understanding of it.
We knew there was another force acting but just from examining, the theoretical system couldn’t find it.
We came up with a number of ideas of what it might be and a number of experiments to rule out the ideas.
Eventually we narrowed it down to one option and by doing some more experiments, partial analysis and more closely looking at changes that had been made to the system by someone else we not only found the force but also a fix to the performance.
Despite the fact that this process ended up with fixing our problem our Quality manager decided this was all very amateurish etc.
To me it was entirely scientific and by extension valid engineering. We wrote up pretty much every experiment and their results along with conclusions & recommendations. It was a bit like doing an interval bisection.
If they used a scientific method to determine the design, even if it wasn’t based on mathematical analysis, doesn’t mean they weren’t scientific. Even today for certain analysis physical tests, or scale models etc are used, usually to verify results from some kind of mathematical or computational analysis but sometimes to provide input data for these or even to provide almost complete answers. To completely rule out trial and error is to rule out a powerful engineering tool, so long as it is done methodically to a plan etc I consider it valid under certain circumstances.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
A geek with a serious math background, no fashion sense, and stable income
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Engineering is the art of modeling materials we do not wholly understand, into shapes we cannot precisely analyze so as to withstand forces we cannot properly assess, in such a way that the public has no reason to suspect the extent of our ignorance." - Dr AR Dykes, British Institution of Structural Engineers, 1976.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Someone with knowledge,experience and qualification of a discipline who is not too enamoured of themselves that they do not listen to an experienced tradesperson when problems arise.Everyone else is just a graduate waiting to learn in the real world.
"Somewhere,there is a village that he is depriving of an idiot"
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Some think engineers use math and physics.
It's really the same thing. The crux of the matter is that all of mankinds ideas are theories. Rules for predicting the outcomes of experiments. Even dropping a rock on ones foot. History has taught you this will hurt and it probably will. A good engineer strives to form accurate models in his mind which are mathematical in nature whether he realizes it or not. By studying math an engineer is able to construct new models or make use of existing ones of more complexity than he could without math. The example above by KENAT is certainly a valid approach to problem solving when existing models give no predictive power. The poke it with a stick and see what happens is the step that has to be taken. The difference is the engineer will try to use the results to formulate new models of the process, perhaps using physical laws and math learned in school. He will in essence try to determine the Gradient at various points so as to give understanding of the direction to move when future occurances happen. The non engineer will record data as points of success and the only thing avalilable in the future is past points that did one thing or another. If asked what will happen when variable C is increased he can only look at his notebook of recorded points and shrug his shoulders if this data point wasn't recorded.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Of course, not long ago, a certain large airplane manufacturer's marketing department boasted that their new jetliner was to be a completely "virtual" design. But from this source:
http://www
comes the quote: "Hours of wind tunnel tests:
15,000 hours of wind tunnel tests".
Nobody does a CFD model without asking the one true supercomputer for a hint at the right answer.
Science is just trial and error with a feedback loop.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
excellent!
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
i was insulted.
oh yea, i guess an engineer is someone who uses science to improve the quality of life.
now....question for the masses:
what's harder, engineering undergrad/grad school or law school?
concept wise?
volume of work wise?
i had a discussion about that with a woman i used to date who worked admissions at a law school.
she said law school is much more difficult than engineering school.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Other than working out your fees how much math does the average lawyer need
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I would not do well in an English Literature curriculum. Does that mean that engineering is easier than English lit? For me, sure. That's why I do it--it's easy for me to do. Does it mean, as an absolute, that Engineering Is Easier Than English Literature?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Definition of an Engineer
"Your engineering course is much harder than our medical degree: you guys have to actually understand all that stuff; we just have to memorise ours!"
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Sometimes I only open my mouth to swap feet...
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I don't know of any 'coloring books' for Engineering.
Maybe I should write one, "colour your aeroplane", color the subsystems as your memorize their names.
It's not just Engineers Vs non Engineer courses. Different courses claim elite status. For instance those of us on aero at university were lead to believe we were superior to most other engineering courses.
Given how long this thread is:
"Engineer - one who doesn't know how to describe what they do"
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I had a similar comment from a law student at my university.
HgTx,
You make a very good point, there are different forms of intelligence. Even something as seemingly basic as writing childrens books requires skills that most engineers would not possess.
RE: Definition of an Engineer
I will get a call from a head hunter saying they have this great design engineer position. They describe it and it sounds as though they are reading my current job description. I tell them thats what I am doing now and I want something a bit more challenging. An engineering job where I don't have to spend 95% of my time creating 3d and drawings. How about the occasional fatigue calculation to get my brain working again ;) Its as though as soon as they see 'engineer' in the job requirements they call everyone that has engineer in their job title and assumes its all the same.
What am I? An overpaid drafter but I won't tell them that! Maybe its because I am in Automotive
Sorry for my rant ;)
RE: Definition of an Engineer
RE: Definition of an Engineer
Kevin Hammond
Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK