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Where have all the skilled trades gone?
12

Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Where have all the skilled trades gone?

(OP)
Access to good welding and fabricating capabilities is becoming a serious problem in North America.
The number of professional trades people, the ones who really understand what they are doing, is in serious decline. My experience recently has been that once a worker learns how to melt steel they immediately consider themselves your best welder.
Am I experiencing a local problem or is the same trend developing in other parts of the world.
Where in the world are the professional trades people?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

3
There was over a decade when almost nobody hired an apprentice - in any trade. "Too expensive - no return on the investment." That, in combination with the "low cost producer/lowest bid" mentality has put us where we are. For years all kinds of work that used to be done in-house by many operations was farmed-out to the lowest bidder. A big part of being the lowest bid is to not pay your help very much, and lay them off 3 seconds after the job's done. It's hard to find "pros" when they get treated like commodities. Industry is reaping exactly what it has sown.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I think partly it's just the changing US economy.  The nuclear construction industry is dead, a new refinery hasn't been built in ages.  Last time I checked, out of the top ten steel mills in the world, zero of them were in the US.

I found long ago in engineering that companies were willing to moan about a lack of qualified workers, when at the same time, they were doing nothing whatever to get anyone qualified- everyone is supposed to get trained by the competition.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Young people today want a different life style - desk jobs!

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I personally know several young people that want to be apprentices, and can't find anyone to take them on. Of the ones I know that found someplace, they looked for a long time. My middle son was one. He wanted to be a tool & die maker. He took lots of machine shop & welding classes. When he finished high school, he went to every shop in the area - nobody was interested. He finally got a job as the clean-up kid at a car dealership. After a year or two, they took him on as an apprentice mechanic. He just recently got his mechanics licence. I was talking to a friend of mine recently who was moaning about how they can't find tool & die makers - anywhere. Gee, I wonder why?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Everyone so far has posted a good reason.

1.We seem to live in a "owe me" society were if one has  problems or does not do well they are a victim.

2.May have to get one's hands dirty.

3.Corporate greed---look to China.

There are still a lot of good kids out there and some of us "old f**ts" would be willing to help them. But there has to be better pay for a lure.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Some major US fabricators have been put out of business, due in part, to the fact that some large corporations would rather save a few bucks by purchasing their fabricated products offshore, rather than supporting local industry.  

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I have quite a few friends who spent a long time trying to find apprenticeship and could not find one leading them to eventually give up.

I also know a lot of people who went to high schools with no tech programs and were never exposed to these jobs.  

I don't know many teachers either, who encourage kids from a young age to enter trades.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

3
The skilled trades (some call them craft) have gone where society has sent them, into unimportance and obsolescence. People, especially people deciding their future, tend to gravitate to those careers that they see having a future, and often, society drives this viewpoint.

Until society puts a premium on the skilled trades, craftsmen/women will continue to decline in numbers.

Here's another example. How many people in this thread own a hand crafted dining room table made by the local funiture maker vs. something store bought/imported/made in (favorite foreign country here, eg Sweden (Ikea))?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

FWIW, Check out the career guidance program at your local high school. The measure to which they pay attention is the number of graduates going on to college.  Consequently trades training options get minimal consideration when advising students on career paths.  Our schools are stuck with a 1950's measure that undervalues creativity and skill.  If you think manual arts have no link to arts programs, think again.  If you have an elected school board, find out what the candidates have to say on these issues versus their views on sports programs.

Griffy

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

China may be the only country left out having the younger generation with traditional work skills.

A lot of damage has been done to the traditional skill groups and I think it is beyond redemption. The last of the foundry supervisor is leaving my foundry this month end and I shall not be able to find a replacement.

Training institutes imparting skills in smithy,carpentry,tannery,foundry etc  have vanished. Society will continue to need the goods and the skills, but there is a void now.

Indian school and college dropouts now join call centres for fancy salaries and working conditions(Glamour). Education and work skills are no longer a premium commodity.

Also the values and priorities of the young have changed,fast money and big money are the hallmarks of success.

Is there a remedy or a correction mode?  

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

arunmrao,

Yes. It's called time, and the mode is supply/demand.

Until the demand gets ahead of supply, no one will bring more supply.



"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Ashereng,
I agree time is the answer. There can be a reversal of the trend that we see now.
But a beginning can be made in US by trying to be more self reliant and thereby improving the balance of trade position too.

If BPOs are closed down,I am sure the flock will turn towards basic sciences,arts and humanities. Universities are currently languishing for want of students.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

It's not all the US' fault. Look to EU also, and any other sufficiently advanced economy.

What are BPOs?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Not just in the US.  We have similar problems in the UK.

Interestingly, wandering around Continental European suppliers, I seem to see a lot more young faces around the shop floor so perhaps all is not lost everywhere.

A.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Seeing young faces doesn't do much. Seeing skilled young faces, that would help a lot.

We have lots of young faces. They will only do things that I ask, even though they are convinced that it is a waste of their time, or I'm wrong, or whatever.

Unfortunately, there is no one to train/mentor/guide them, the ones that actually also want to learn and gain good experience.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I agree with Ashereng, we as consumers play a major part in all this.

We all want to earn top dollar but pay nothing for our clothes, electrical goods, and food, in fact you name it. The fact you can now buy a television for one or two hours pay about says it all.

Companies would not go abroad for cheaper labour if the consumers wanted and would pay for locally produced items.

Is it all of us that have created this monster?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Yup.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

BPOs are Business Process Outsourcing centres.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

(OP)
Tragically so far everyone seems to share my lament.
But surely there must be some parts in the world where skilled trades are being encouraged, forged, and perhaps even respected. If such a place exists then the laws of supply and demand will force companies to go there to source their equipment and leave the rest of us to fight for the scraps. I find it hard to believe that the entire world wants to sit behind a desk and provide "services".
My older son is in university for engineering but loves nothing more than coming into our shop on a weekend (yes I work most weekends as an owner of a small business) and doing things with his hands. He is learning to use various tools and is developing some basic welding skills but has no ambition to do this for a living.
Is there a country out there that has a formal strategy to develop its' skilled trades base?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

widla:
Pacfic Rim,India,China,and some parts of the Middle East where it is more of a culture and traditonal.

Yes,we as consumers search for better prices and that contributes to the problem. However,lets look at wages to buy these goods.

Average CEO: $5,300,000.00 Avg.worker:$26,000~$125,000 year

Perhaps there is something wrong with this picture. Who really reaps the benefits of cost cuts?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

deanc,

The Pacific Rim, India and China have a culture of skilled trade? I must disagree with your statement.

There are many reasons why the poorer nations of the world rely on manufacturing and producing products, and I would suggest culture and tradition is NOT one of them.

If we were having this thread 20 years ago, in the 1980's, the nation we would be talking about would be Japan. How they have a tradition and culture to work hard, were good as math and science, and America was going to H E double hockey sticks in a hand basket. Remember this one? "Japan has a tradition and culture of saving." As in they save more money.

Guess what? 20 years later, Japan has many of the same problem that the US has. Their kids have more means and opportuinity. Their saving rate is now lower than it was 20 years ago. Their kids prefer to watch TV, have fun, and work in high paying clean jobs with a future too. I heard that Sony opened a factory in China or Thailand or somewhere to manufacture their product for export because labour rates are lower than Japan's.

If memory serves, the "Rust Belt" of the US in recent memory was a bastion of manufacturing. Traditions and culture there were of the "blue collar" hard working "honest day's work" ethos. In 20 years, that has pretty much shifted to "lets make a ton of money". Why? Because they have the means and opportunit to do so.

soapbox

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Opportunities are plenty to make a living. It is no longer necessary to mark your presence in the rust world.

It is kind of considered infradig to be associated with them. My wife who works in a software company follows a different set of value system than mine.

There is no encouragement for the younger generation as they are weaned away from their cradles(kidding!!) to join a call centre.

Even the Indian military is finding hard to recruit at various levels. once there used to be a mad rush.

The only field that I find flourishing is politics. there is no dearth of aspirants(Thanks to corruption).

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

We are part of a global economy and unless there are global solutions regional problems will continue.  I don't think this promotes "big brother" but is a call for world leaders who put the earth ahead of country.
As to the disparity of wages mentioned earlier, when a CEO cuts costs, he is doing his job. When a laborer does the same thing, he usually cuts his throat.

Griffy

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

2
I call this whole dilema THE WALMART SYNDRONE. That being; whatever is cheap is good. If to be the cheapest, means utilizing slave labor, no big deal, the public doesn't see the slaves.

Quality is not even a consideration. In fact, the term has no meaning to many individuals in the US anymore.

It costs time for a person to become a crafts person.  During that time the wage may be lower than what is wanted. Therefore, go to some rotten liberal college and become a worthless, lazy liberal. One thing you will learn is how to milk the tax payer. No need to know any skilled trades whatsoever.

My company has not hired an apprentice in years. Reason? No one even comes in for an interview.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I am one of the elusive "Talented" young people, and by coincidence am from the "rust belt". I was raised near the mines in northern Minnesota. I got to see the hardship of the 80's first hand and was told that the trades were a dying work place. That was a large factor in my decision to prove some people wrong. I come from a family of "white collar" professionals, all great poeple who hate their jobs. "I feel like I never accomplish anything" is a frequent complaint from most of them. If kids could experience the satisfaction of creating something with their hands I think a lot of them would look into the trades much more seriously. As far as apprenticeships, the young men and women that I have given the opportunities to have shown the "want something for nothing" quality all to frequently. Bright and driven are not enough for true tradesmen you also have to be willing to work. I trully hope this trend changes, without machinists and the machines they build to take other peoples jobs, the world will be a very different. Do your part, take someone under your wing, don't coddle them but teach them every thing you can, I owe most every thing that I've gained to my first boss, he busted my a$$ but taught me to take the reigns and run. Sorry if that was a bit preachy, I feel strongly about this.

Nick

   

"Speed costs money boys, how fast do you want to go?"

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

If you remember the 80's, probably, you are not young anymore. Sorry, I remember the 80's, barely, and my kids say I am old.

Like you say, talented young skilled tradespeople (I got flambed earlier for using the masculine form only) are "elusive" to use your word.

Unfortunately, you seem to be the tail end of a long line of skilled trades/crafts.

By the way, I meant absolutely no disrepect with my reference to the "Rust Belt". It is used in strictly a geographical sense.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

This has certainly generated a lot of interest- I work in the "rust belt" and BTW someone mentioned in an earlier post about no US steel producer was in the top 10 in the world -that has changed-the company I am with ranked #9 last year for tons produced and probably higher than that in profit-$1.3 billion for 2005.  Anyway the skilled trade people are dying out-I see it firsthand, just about every shutdown that the quality of help has gone down.
  AS smart and money driven as management is in this company, they are ignoring the fact that they need to start an apprenticeship program.  We try to grow our own maintenance people and its not working very well.  It is a complex problem and some valid points have been made.  Maytag

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I wonder how much the introduction of computer controlled and fully automated production has reduced the need for skilled hand fabrication ?

Gone are the days when a skilled metal worker marks out a job from scratch, and manually carries out all the cutting, welding, drilling, milling, and final assembly.  It is all just too expensive, too slow, and quality control may be unsatisfactory.

Much better to buy some expensive CNC machinery and hire a few specialists to run it, or move the entire manufacturing process overseas.

I am ancient enough to remember drawing offices that had row after row of draftsmen sitting on stools at drafting tables creating and amending full sized engineering drawings.  Where have they all gone ?  These days two or three people replace perhaps twenty in a modern CAD drawing office.
 

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

"These days two or three people replace perhaps twenty in a modern CAD drawing office"

Not in our place. I work in the old chassis drawing office. A workstation is smaller than a drafting table, it is still chock full of draggers (and 5 interlopers). Admittedly we are working on more programs than we used to but on the other hand a reasonable proportion of our drawings are done by the suppliers. I don't think it takes much less time to design on the tube, the advantage is that it should be a more useful model.


Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

widla (Mechanical)
I think that your complaint is valid.
 I also think that the situation is now starting to turn around.
 The law of supply and demand is already changing this.
An example, in San Diego Ca. the local plumbers and pipe fitters union, is advertising for apprentices at $18 per hour to start. This is also about what a graduate from college with a bachelors degree in English makes. The tendency however is for parents to still push for their kids to go to college in spite of the fact that many would make more money in their lives working a blue collar trade.
 I serve on an ROP advisory board which offers practical skills to people who want to learn. Interestingly the average age of the students is about 50. many transitioning from one skill set to another as the requirements in the job market change.
  The complaint about companies not wanting to put on apprentices is valid, they are afraid that because of the employment at will laws in the US, that their investment in an apprentice will be stolen by their competitors as soon as that apprentice gets to be any good. Adequate compensation as the apprentice improves would take care of this matter, but most companies do not seem to do this.
The tendency instead is to show a worker only enough to enable him/her to do the task the employer wants, with the result that it takes many years for employees to learn useful skill sets.
 Whilst the tendency now is to farm work out to countries that can do work cheaper. This can only go on for so long, there is a little thing called balance of payments abroad
 It was not that way 20 or 30 years ago, when the dollar was stronger, then the tendency was to raid the countries that ran apprenticeship programs and find newly qualified journeymen, engineers etc., offer them what seemed like more money than they could make at home and bring them to the US.
 As the dollar drops in value the companies with the skilled workers in place will benefit, if they have trained them.
B.E.
  

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

For any country to grow rapidly you need a cheap work force, most of Europe did this on the strength exploiting the colonies, the USA did it on the back of immigrants, those days are disappearing fast. The fact is we now all earn too much money and have to many rights to be competitive in a global market, where man-hours are a key consideration.

What Berkshire says is also true in the UK, what were unfashionable trades like plumbers, electricians and builders are now highly sort after and are certainly making a come back. Also some strange trades such as blacksmiths, decretive wrought iron work rather than more traditional skills.

To stay up front you need to move with the times. I wonder if this conversation is that different to when cottage industries changed to work houses, or car companies introduced production lines, or starting using pressing and mass produced parts rather than hand beaten panels?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

(OP)
There appears to be a lot of blame put on the Management of companies for a lack of effective apprenticeship programs.
The problem that I see, as a small busines owner, is that what I am really missing in my business is the "Professional" Tradesperson. This is the individual who really understands what they are doing and respects the source of their knowledge. How many welders have you seen who really understand what is happening when they lay down a bead? How many even care to understand things like "Heat Affected Zone" or the "Ferrite" in a stainless weld? I have seen very, very few!
A true Professional will take a task and execute the task without being pushed or poked. If they do  not know how to solve a problem then they will have the strength of character to ask for help, and not waste away a full shift dickering and then damage the component. Companies can not find these Pros any more, the employees will walk accross the street to another job for a marginal increase and give no respect to the source of their knowledge and the investment made in them by their trainer. Is this not a strength of character issue?
All this asside, we still have a skills problem.
Is there any country, state, province, city who has come up with a working solution?
What about the unemployed youth who is living on social assistance? Is it draconian to force these people to attend any form of apprenticeship in order to continue living on public support? Is any part of the world doing this effectively and in a socially responsible manner? There must be.
The skilled trades issue is a very local problem for fabrication business owners. Local economic circumstances will control how much success we have in the international market, no matter where in the world you live. Furthermore, my welder in Canada can not weld any faster than someone in a developing country where the wages are a fraction of ours. So why would a customer buy from me? Quality is hardly an issue any more. All that is left, in my opinion, is convenience. I must make it more convenient for my customer to buy from me and not someone else. A part of the convenience is the faith the customer has that they will get what they are paying for. To ensure that we can satisfy that customer we need professional tradespeople, or go out of business.
Who in the world is doing apprenticeship development right?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

"Who in the world is doing apprenticeship development right?"

Widla,
I will ask who in the world will join an apprentice program? Right away after schooling other glamorous and lucrative  opportunities exist like in the call centres. I have failed miserably in motivating anyone to join.The government agencies too have expressed their inabilitie. Today it is a question of market forces which prevent the young ones joining the conventional trades.

After my degree in Engineering with a gold medal from a reputed institute I joined an apprentice program for Rs 150/ per month(Approx then 18-20 USD)  

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

In the US, I know of no companies running apprenticeships.  The building and trades unions do ,i.e.ironworkers, pipefitters,electricians all still run apprenticeships.  Maytag

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Maytag, what I had heard was referring to largest mills, not largest companies.  Anyway, that's been several years and may have changed.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

widla, it seems that you on the employer side, and are having difficulties finding good "Pros"?

I would like to offer some viewpoints from the employee side, and am having difficulties finding good "employers".

I hope to not offend.

Quote (widla):

Companies can not find these Pros any more, the employees will walk accross the street to another job for a marginal increase and give no respect to the source of their knowledge and the investment made in them by their trainer. Is this not a strength of character issue?

To the first issue, "Companies can not find these Pros any more", I would like to submit that this is  more of a problem "that companies can not find these Pros at the wage they are offering". If you need a "Pro" enough, you can find them.

To the second issue, I humbly reply no. This is not a character issue. This is a case of difference in pay issue. If it is only a marginal increase, why are you not making it to your own employee?

Quote (widla):

What about the unemployed youth who is living on social assistance? Is it draconian to force these people to attend any form of apprenticeship in order to continue living on public support? Is any part of the world doing this effectively and in a socially responsible manner? There must be.

No, I would not call it draconian. I would call it a slippery slope towards forced slavery. If you believe that people have a right to freedom, and society has an obligation to take care of those in society that can not take care of themselves, then forcing them to do something in return for public support can not be allowed.

Quote (widla):

Furthermore, my welder in Canada can not weld any faster than someone in a developing country where the wages are a fraction of ours. So why would a customer buy from me?

Hopefully, the reason your Canaidan welder makes more money is because he/she can weld more different metals, using more different techniques, and can do it right more often than a less expensive welder (regardless of origin). A ruined part is usually more costly than the welder's rate. A failed part is also usually more costly than a welder's rate. Not to mention additional costs due to possible injuries, destruction of property, and production losses.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

A star for you Ashereng!

Will

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

widla (Mechanical)
Using the law of supply and demand, the really skilled work people: Welders, Sheetmetalworkers, fabricators, engineers etc.,tend to gravitate to the companies who offer the best percieved pay and benefit package.
  If you cannot find good people at "any" price, then you need to look at your competitors to see if they have these people, and if so what they are paying them.
 I cannot believe that a country like Canada, which was strong on apprenticeships for so many years, does not, have people with the skills you are looking for.
B.E.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Sometimes I wonder if people who would otherwise have made excellent tradespeople are, instead of learning hands-on skills through an apprenticeship or on the job, going to college and entering the "white collar" world.  

Are bright, motivated, quick-learning people encouraged to get a degree, even if they have to go into deep debt?  Is their earning potential with the degree worth the investment?  

Many larger companies require degrees in order to advance above a certain level.  Does this effectively prevent someone from "working their way up"?  Most shop personnel I know don't have the time or the money to go to school nights for 4-5 years to get a degree of some sort.

I fear sometimes that this sort of mindset creates a culture of Thinkers and Doers, and never the twain shall meet, with negative impact on the efficiency of the workplace.

BTW, my shop lead welder has a master's degree in music and a teaching certificate!  He switched to welding as preferable to teaching music to grade schoolers...

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Fort McMurray, Alberta Canada.  They're employed at either Suncor or Syncrude.

Got a buddy that rents his sofa (chesterfield) out in his hotel room for $CDN 500.00 per month.  I bet you by next weekend he will be paid this in Euros.  Too many bodies and not enough accomodation is overheating our economy.

CNRL (Canadian Natural Resources Ltd) is bringing in migrant Chinese trades on a temporary work permit.  Not to worry, most will probably skip across the border and slip into the underground American economy when winter hits.

Kenneth J Hueston, PEng
Principal
Sturni-Hueston Engineering Inc
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

(OP)
Ashereng, your points are well taken and not offensive. There are many misconceptions on the employee side of businesses that the owners are rich and got there by the sweat of their employees. Certainly in some cases this is true, but not in our case. The problem that we are experiencing, as outlined previously, is that manufacturers are stuck between the local cost of doing business and the international market price for the finished goods. One way or another it all comes down to money.
In Canada we are experiencing tremendous growth in the West with the oil sands expansions sucking out a great deal of the skilled trades and nobody can compete with the wages people are getting out there. The oil industry will pay whatever it needs to pay to bring workers in.
What this leaves behind is a group of "hired guns". These are the remaining tradespeople who do not wish to uproot and work under harsh conditions, so they hire themselves out to the fabricators in the rest of the country. The lack of supply of qualified tradespeople has led to an unstable market condition where there simply are not enough qualified employees coming into the marketplace. Add to that the "hired gun" mentality and we have an industry that will no longer be competitive internationally, and die.
So no, underpaying employees is not the issue. The manufacturers are paying top dollar for substandard work because the pros are not being developed.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

widla,

I am glad you are not offened. I appreciate the fact that you are making an honest effort to make your business go, in a tough environment with escalating labour costs, and ever escalating competition from everywhere.

Yes, your situation is tough (between a rock and a hard place is the saying?).

I would like to offer another point of view. My father was a union mechanic in the textile industry. In the 70's, when times were still good, the company decide to wring as much profit from the mill as they could. One way was on labout. My father's crew did not have a new member in that decade. In the 80's, his mill was not doing too good - cheap goods from Asia, expensive union labour, etc. Sort of like what is happening to you. So, they couldn't hire anyone, hence, no new member to the crew either. The mill made it through though, because old mechanics like my father's crew were good - good mechanics, millwrights, with multiple skills and some would say a huge dallop of creativity. When my father and his crew retired/died, there were no mechanics with their skills to replace them. Within 5 years, the mill closed. I am sure there were lots of other reasons, but a loss of over 50% of the trades didn't help (rough estimated numbers).

The lack of skilled trades is not a recent phenomenom. It started way back 30 years ago. We saw it then - my dad told me to go to "school" because employers were not interested in hiring skilled trades.

On the issue of the hired gun, I am unfortunately on the other side of the arguement from you again.

15 years ago, when the economy was not that good, the companies treated "us workers" like we were expendable. Don't get me wrong, back then, we were. Our rates were beaten down, we were under constant threat of being let go ... etc. Many of my peers left enginering/technical/trades to do other things, to provide for their family.

Now, times are good. Those of us that made it through, we remember (je me souviens is not only for the french). I have a hired gun mentality because that was the mentality of the employers when times were lean. I was treated like a commodity - a cheap one. Now, I seem to be a hotter commodity - a commodity none the less. Like my farming father-in-law says, might as well make hay when the making's good.

I am not saying this is anyone's fault or doing, especially not you widla. What I am saying is that we reap what we sow - we just often forget what we sowed, and years later, the lament start.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

(OP)
Ashereng, your comments about your dad's era are right on. I also grew up in times when engineers were a commodity. But back in the 70's we still respected our employer and were happy to have a job.
Through history many employers got rich by squeezing the life out of their employees. We do not function that way. In our small business every employee is there for a reason and plays a vital role so the strengths and weaknesses of everyone shows up on the bottom line immediately, this is why it is so important for us to have good people. There is no room for error.
It almost seems that to be successful in todays economy you have to treat employees as mere tools, which only perpetuates the cycle of mistrust and prevents the development of strong bonds between owners and employees. I feel this is a tragedy and a failure of character on the parts of the people who participate in this boom and bust mentality.
I will keep looking for a few pros to work with.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

widla,

When I work for a company, I do just that. What I do is usually spelled out in my contract, along with rate and termination date (I prefer fixed-term contracts). I do my work, I do it very well, and that is it. I don't try to help the company succeed, I don't deal with their problems and issues outside of my contract.

Hypothetically speaking, if you wanted me to help your company succeed, to help you build your company up, train your people, etc., then I would want a piece of the pie. A partnership/ownership. This way, I would share in the fortunes of what I sow, and I would have more of a vested interest in seeing your company succeed.


I still believe, the problem today, is generally that you can't get the skill without paying. In specific cases, perhaps your widla, the problem may be that there is no "supply" available. I recently read a job posting for experienced satellite launch supervisor. I am guessing that there can't be too many of those on earth.

Have you tried to broaden the "coverage" of your search? Somewhere, the skill is there, you just have to bring him/her to where you are.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Skilled craftmen,

  I'm one of those guys.  At age 19 my first welding job was a shop that made front-end loaders for tractors. I learned how to mig weld steel.  I learned from watching and paying close attention to the best welders in the shop.
  The next company I worker for made trailers and flatbeds for trucks.  I had to completly fabricate and weld the products.  So basically I started my carear.  
  The next company was my favorite.  We built plastic thermoforming machines.  It's just amazing what I learned.
mig and tig steel, stainless ,and aluminum. I worked with press brakes, shears, and other fab shop machinery. Brazing and welding cast iron. Also some self taught lathe work.  Installing gears, cylinders, sprockets, and many other working devices.  I also started whining because my knowledge grew but my pay did not.  So I moved on.
  Next company was into structural platforms, stairs, handrail, cyclones, and transitions.  I learned how to layout everthing on flat sheet and form it very well.  I was head fabrictor. I also enjoyed being in the machine shop using the lathes and mills. I became a machinist.  I would also draw up platforms for the company with my computer.  In my own time working there I build my own portable hydraulically operated sawmill. It's sitting in my back yard right now waiting for me to put a log in it.  I built a stainless barbeque grill that only a doctor should own.  I can blacksmith roses out of 1/4" hrr all day long.

I can find drafting errors before structures are built. But thats not good enough because the concrete anchor bolts did not match the base plates of the columns.

  I started working for a shop this year that employs 60.
They use cnc machining and burning of plate. This is an example of losing your pride.  Although I know how to layout a cone, they won't let me.  I get it already cut for me to roll.  My knowledge of fabricating is wasting away. I try to teach the younger unexperienced employees my skills.
  

Theres more to this but I have to go for now.



  

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Cutinoak,

It is not only in the mechanical design and fabrication area that computer de-skilling is happening.  It is also happening in the electronics design industry.

My interests and skills lie in both mechanical and electronic engineering design and fabrication, and I can really Identify with your comments.

Computer simulation has revolutionized design, but it also diminishes the hands on skills, and the experience, and the "intuition" and hard won knowledge only gained by designing and building things the hard way, and sometimes failing.

The new graduates come out of university with a head full of software, and think they know all about electronics (or mechanical) design and manufacturing.

I guess if you can drive Autocad, and program a CNC machine, you also know absolutely everything there is to know about mechanical engineering and fabrication.

These guys demand top salary, prestige, and airconditioned comfort straight out of university. They look down on a skilled tradesman with perhaps, forty years of workshop floor experience as being just a dummy.

I am also seeing graduates that PAY others to do their university assignments for them, and scrape through a degree course with virtually no real knowledge. The whole system is winding down into chaos.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Warpspeed,

Dead-on correct. You get a star from me!

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Gentlemen,
The comment by warpspeed  " I am also seeing graduates that PAY others to do their university assignments for them, and scrape through a degree course with virtually no real knowledge. The whole system is winding down into chaos. ",   is scary if it has any basis in truth.
  It is bad enough, that newly graduated engineers or fresh turned out Journeymen, think they can leap tall buildings with a single bound, and usually take a year on the job to find out they can't, but here, you are describing someone, who has bought a degree/certificate and does not even know, what he/she does not know, because they have not done the work.
B.E.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

berkshire,

I am sure that the "greybeards" around when we graduated said the same thing about us.

It's one of those every generation thinks they invented sex thing.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Berkshire,

I have a very good friend of 20+ years standing that is an Associate Professor of mechanical engineering at a particular university here in Melbourne. I sometimes become involved on odd occasions helping post graduate students with some of their projects. Usually it is just advice on selecting appropriate instrumentation, or perhaps an interfacing problem Really it is free consultation, but it is always interesting and I am happy to do it, and visit my friend.  

Anyhow, on campus I sometimes get to hang out with some of the younger undergraduate engineering students. I have been approached three times in about the last ten years to complete assignments and do final year practical projects FOR CASH.  Not assist or advise, but complete the whole thing for them.  I am not making any of this up. I have been told that this is now fairly common practice among some struggling students from wealthier families.

I could not bear to tell my Professor friend, it would break his heart. Times certainly seem to be changing.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Ashereng (Petroleum)
Yea I was, one of those smart assed kids, now I am a greybeard.
Warpspeed (Automotive)
What you are saying devalues a degree from that university.
 I am sorry to hear that.
B.E.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Warspeed,
Why talk of Canada and rich country. In a poor country like India, I have had your experience 10 years ago. For degree students I would go all the way and help them in their project work as an incentive for them to become good engineers,(All this was free).

 But a few post graduate students approached me to asist them in their dissertation work. Their plea was this would enable to get better jobs, a raise, a better alliance too!!.

Compensation would be given for undetaking this job. I was aghast and refused such a bait. Since then I have stopped visiting the academics.

When this is the status of engineering education,no doubt we are losing the race.

 

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I believe most of us would try to encourage an engineering student by offering help by way of explanation or clarification.  

But there is a vast gulf between that, and what effectively amounts to straight cheating. And there is probably a vast grey area in between. It is really a moral issue, and a sad reflection on the decline in ethics.

But it is not just the students. The lodges and secret societies have also had a devastating effect on ethics in engineering. But I don't want to go into that.

"Where have all the skilled trades gone ?"

I believe it is a symptom of the times we live in.



RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

There are many good points here.

Personally, I don't think the trades have dwindled as much as they have been diluted and increasingly specialized. I think that is true in the engineering fields as well. Stating that one has a degree in Mechanical Engineering is as meaningless as claiming to be a doctor. It requires further clarification because there are so many versions of the Mechanical Engineer or doctor.

In modern times, it is ever more difficult to be highly skilled in many fields because there are so many widely varying areas of specialty that it's just not possible to be fluent in everything. CAD people require constant updating on new versions of software. Machinists have to constantly learn new controls on the CNC machines. A person who is highly skilled on inspection equipment is often a "newbie" when starting at a different company and "cannot hit the ground running".

The proliferaion of computerized equipment has revolutionalized industries. One CNC machine will do in a day what took several skilled people weeks to complete. AutoCAD will allow draftsmen to create and amend drawings in significantly less time.

I started with a BSME in 1993 but could not find companies that valued that knowledge. About 6 years ago, I abandoned engineering and now have two CNC vertical machining centers in my garage that provide triple the income I recieved as an engineer. I am by no means a journeyman machinist and have very limited knowledge. However, I am good enough that companies will pay me instead of making their parts in-house. If I am asked to make something I have no skills with, I am stuck and have to pass on the work. But there is so much work available that I don't have to worry about my lack of skills. That is how most manufacturing shops operate these days.

I believe that the deeper problem lies with the lack of mentorship that goes along with apprenticeship. In addition to learning the trade, there was someone alongside of the rookie teaching them about being a part of the company and the ethics of the workplace. That is the part that is not included with the purchase of a new CNC machine or piece of software. I can teach someone to run a CNC and make good parts in a few weeks, but mentoring someone about the workplace is a much longer process.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

The problem of kids being encouraged to go to college for no particular reason is common.  I've seen a couple of exceptions to that, but for the most part, parents discourage their kids from considering anything but college after high school.  It's basically a vote of "no confidence" in the kids.  Everyone thinks that once someone interrupts their flow of schooling, they will never pick it back up.

I see a few bright spots--we have a new oil boom going on in Oklahoma, and the pay for "blue-collar" work has taken a nice jump.  It's making it very hard to find people to work in factories for the pay that was common a couple of years ago.  It is enticing some bright kids to go out and work instead of lounge around at college.

The sad part is, the "job skill" most in demand is passing a drug test.  On a positive note, the oilfield seems to have adopted a much more serious approach to safety--so much so that a drilling crew of 5 will often posess 50 fingers.  You didn't see that back in the '70s.

Great thread!

Thanks,

Jess Davis

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

I think the best thing to happen to the engineering/manufacturing business is the massive interest that has suddenly cropped up around shows like Monster Garage, Junkyard Wars, and so on.  I'm not much into goofy choppers, but amoung the high-school kids, building stuff is suddenly pretty cool.  That's the first step toward a generation of engineers and fabricators.

'Course, they'll all have tattoos and piercings.....

Jess Davis

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

So wot's wrong wiv a tattoo and a piercing here and there if they can do the job? Eh?
B.E.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Probably nothing if they are one of the back room boys (girls).

But if they represent the company in a visible capacity, it may not project the "corporate image" that the company is trying to achieve.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Warpspeed (Automotive)
Yes I remember that image.
 Moving from the shop floor to the office.Shedding my blue boilersuit and donning polyester slacks and long sleeved shirt. Now being regarded as a member of the "Staff" and getting a 20 percent pay cut.
B.E.

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Nothing at all wrong with the hard hat, boiler suit, and protective boots. These days they are mandatory, even for senior engineers in some situations.

I was referring to tattoos and body piercing.

You would not normally expect to see your local bank manager, magistrate, or doctor with purple spikey hair, tattoos, and a chain through his nose, would you ?

RE: Where have all the skilled trades gone?

Warpspeed (Automotive)
Well no not really.
 Although it does create an interesing mind picture of a magistrate with his wig on, and a chain in his nose.
  No, let's not even, go there.
Keeping the personal decorations to the back shop sounds like the better idea.
B.E.

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