Texas Blackouts
Texas Blackouts
(OP)
Anybody have any detailed information? Just heard on CNN about rolling blackouts inititated by the grid manager covering 80% of state. 15 min intervals. Seems afully early in the year.
Pechez les vaches.






RE: Texas Blackouts
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Texas Blackouts
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RE: Texas Blackouts
It may be further poor quality speculation on my part, but isn't this an indication of unusually poor grid operation? Surely Texas must have had equal weather conditions in past years, and should be prepared for this?
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Texas Blackouts
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http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/14363574.htm
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Looks like it is going to be a long hot summer.
I, too, wondered where all those idle peakers were. Heck, earlier in the day I was in a plant a couple of states away talking to a plant manager who is trying to sell 16 peakers. But, he couldn't have gotten his excess power into ERCOT anyway.
I live on the ERCOT island now; lucky me, but I am away right now where there are plenty of idle peakers.
rmw
RE: Texas Blackouts
Many of the plants are still in Spring outages. We had 100+ degree heat over a large portion of the state today as I remember from the weather map. That is unusual this early in the year, even down here.
As rmw mentioned, ERCOT is an island in the sense that the ERCOT ac grid is not syncronized to the Eastern or Western grid. So we have limited capability to import power to cope with problems like this (although I can't ever recall talk of rolling blackouts on this scale before). The import capacity is limited by the capacity of the DC links. I think there is one group in East Texas and one in West Texas but they are limited in capacity. There has been talk for awhile of upgrades.
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RE: Texas Blackouts
"They did say the blackouts affected omly/mainly 3 large cities which they named so I should have picked up that that couldn't have been 80% of all Texas."
Don't bet the ranch. I can guarantee that there were many more areas effected than 3 major cities.
RE: Texas Blackouts
http:
"As much as 15 percent of the state's power supply was already off-line for seasonal maintenance to brace for the summer's energy usage peaks. Then four power-generating plants shut down unexpectedly amid the stifling heat, said ERCOT spokesman Paul Wattles."
"Typical usage for Texas in April is about 40,000 megawatts a day, but the state peaked at 52,000 megawatts on Monday, Wattles said"
I assume "megawatts a day" was supposed to mean either peak demand or 24-hour average demand.
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RE: Texas Blackouts
Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com
RE: Texas Blackouts
Upon coming to work this morning, I heard from some coworkers in the small rural towns of Port Lavaca and Wharton that those towns had blackouts as well.
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RE: Texas Blackouts
If that is true, and the other one(s) are of similar size, then that is not many drops in a bucket the size of 52,000 MW.
I did drive by the Tenaska plant in Rusk County this AM, one of two that Tenaska has that is placed so that it can put power into ERCOT or SW Power Pool (or whatever grid that they are connected to) and it was cranking wide open based on certain indicators that the trained eye can see from the road.
Why can't we just throw some jumper cables across their switch yard(s) and get ERCOT synchronously connected to the rest of the country?
Did we have any blackouts today? I haven't heard of any yet, but I'm always the last one to know anything.
rmw
RE: Texas Blackouts
I'm not sure whether your question about jumpers was half-serious. But I have wondered why we can't establish ac ties. Here is what little I know (beware - speculation).
Texas power system evolved as a separate system originally for political reasons (by declaration of the legislature). Now that it has evolved without interconnections, stability considerations make it impractical to tie the large Texas system into the other large systems using one or two or three medium length ac transmission lines. It would be like trying to tie together two very large masses with a thin rubber band.
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RE: Texas Blackouts
"It would be like trying to tie together two very large mass-spring systems with a thin rubber band."
The two systems would act relatively independently except for the one weak tie. Small oscillations in either system would put a large stress on the tie.
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RE: Texas Blackouts
Given the supergrid, west Texas could economically exploit it's wind gen potential using hydro gen backup from Northwest and Canada (eg. Quebec has nearly 40 Gw of storage hydro installed which makes superb backup for wind when the wind stops blowing) Many other benefits, eg. saving natural gas for export to northeast home heating while using minemouth IGCC coal-gen power from Wyoming.
Suppose to many business oxen would get gored though.
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Texas Blackouts
RE: Texas Blackouts
Don
RE: Texas Blackouts
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Texas Blackouts
The problem I see, even if such cables are a doable thing is how would you synchronize the two systems to be able to close in the breaker(s)? Can you imagine the size of that synchronizer?
There are plenty of potential tie in points where ERCOT utilities and outside ERCOT utilities have adjacent infrastructure.
The lack of tie in-ability contributed to the aftermath of electrical outages after Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. As it did during the rolling blackouts that are the subject of this thread.
There was lots of spare capacity in Louisiana and Arkansas, and I don't know about other directions (Oklahoma, New Mexico, etc.)
rmw
RE: Texas Blackouts
But I couldn't find any information on the reason for the dc ties and why Texas can't connect.
In 1996 I took a power transmission system course and my professor said the reason the reason Ercot was separate was stability reasons. He mentioned there was a study of an ac interconnection that would require at least 6 parallel ac lines to form a marginally stable connection.
Lare in 2003 several folks at the plant told me the part about Texas historically having a separate system for political reasons. They were also aware of some study for ac interconnection which was rejected as too expensive.
I kind of put the two stories together to get my story, but I'm not positive it's complete or correct. Wish I could find more on google but I don't see anything. I don't think that syncronizing would be a huge challenge. After all the system operators have fine control of system frequency.
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RE: Texas Blackouts
RE: Texas Blackouts
Pechez les vaches.
RE: Texas Blackouts
Maybe having an isolated grid is a preparation for secession.
Now, 10 senators from the region instead of two.......
Electricpete, I am trying to imagine the system operators bringing up (or dropping) the frequenct on the whole ERCOT system all at once to balance the phases for syncronyzation. That would seem to be a trick, starting with your plant.
rmw
RE: Texas Blackouts
When California was having power difficulties a several years ago CNN was eager to report this was due (partially) by deregulation, while never reporting that deregulation was working in Texas.
One other little point: Texas reluctance to intertie prevented the state from sharing the great black out that afflicted much of the east coast a few years ago.
RE: Texas Blackouts
"When California was having power difficulties a several years ago CNN was eager to report this was due (partially) by deregulation, while never reporting that deregulation was working in Texas. "
Completely off topic, but De-regulation in Texas is a joke. Re-regulation is a better name, and all it has done is drive prices up for the consumer. As in California, the only ones profitting from de-regulation are the marketers that promoted it in the first place.
None of the Municipals or Coops were forced in and all of them have cheaper rates than the IOUs.
As for the DC ties, one of the steps preceeding the blackouts were to take advantage of all the available DC ties. Another was to ramp up any hydro that was available. Unexpectedly high temperatures and the unexpected and almost simultaneous loss of 1200 Mw of generation prompted the stage 4 rolling blackouts.
And as usual, the State's politicians (with 20/20 hind-site)are already ramping up their righteous indignation as to ERCOT's failings. Try betting any one of them $1000 at 10 to 1 odds that it will be 100+ degrees next April 17 in Austin TX. and see how many takers you get.