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Cell Phone Spark

Cell Phone Spark

Cell Phone Spark

(OP)
Is there enough spark energy generated in cell phones to ignite air ladden w/ gasoline fume while cars are being refueled?  Just read an article relating several incidents on this topic.  I can not seem to believe it.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Do a google search on "myth busters cell phone ignition". They did a show on it and essentially busted it as a myth.

Eng-Tips: Help for your job, not for your homework  Read FAQ731-376

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Who promotes this stuff?  How could there be several articles written on this unless someone is lying?  Ignorance is one thing.  I can understand how an uneducated public would fear the unkown. But engineers should have access to facts.  Is there a way of putting together myth buster like information for the general public?

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Bogus. Another resource:  

http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/gasvapor.asp

However.....

There have been cases of **people** creating enough spark to ignite gasoline vapors when they grab the nozzle to remove it from the car.  This is discussed in the Petroleum Equipment Institute link cited by stookeyfpe above.  

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I believe that women are most likely to be burned up while fueling their cars because they are the most likely to re-enter the vehicle then re-exit it again without having to touch the door handle (because the door is already open)and hence carrying an electric charge back to the in-use nozzle.  Also they might be more likely to wear synthetics which cause more charge buildup.  All this with a cell phone in hand. Leading some imbecile to the cell phone connection.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I agree with itsmoked. There is a video clip circulating, showing a woman getting flash burned at a gas pump. I don't recall if she had a cell phone in her hand, but it was obvious in the video that it was a static spark from her sleeve that ignited the fumes.

She was fine BTW in case you have never seen the video. She just calmly places the hose back into the cradle once the flames go out. Fairly cool head really.

Eng-Tips: Help for your job, not for your homework  Read FAQ731-376

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I think most serious injuries have occurred when the person reflexively pulls the nozzle out and runs away with it when the initial ignition occurs.

But we don't have self-service gas stations here, so I'll have to find something else to worry about.  

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Ah, you must live in Oregon! The last bastion of the "Gas Station Attendant as a career goal" set.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I understand that New Jersey is also as civilized as Oregon.  No standing in the rain and wind minding the gas pump; I can't understand the outsiders who come here and would rather pump their own gas than have someone else deal with the mess.  Driving a diesel makes one appreciate the attendant even more, no more diesel smell on my hands.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

  Ah yes Organ... I always fuel up just at the border so I can make it across..

  And if you drove a Renault 10 you would understand why a person would want to pump his own gas.   The fuel fill was a radiator capped pipe in the engine compartment near the radiator fill.  Located directly above the ventilated distributor cap.  Spill a few tablespoons of fuel and you have an ignition key triggered fire ball.  I can't tell you how many times some slack jawed local would wander around with the gas nozzle until I got out and essentially did the fueling verbally.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Who would put the fuel filler in the engine compartment????  Geesh.

There is an exception to the rule that allows a motorcycle driver to place and remove the nozzle as a result of too many complaints about spills on the paint.  But on the whole, I find it a much better system than having to get out in the rain and the wind to do it myself.  When the wind is coming out of the gorge, the canopy on the fuel island is in the wrong orientation to do any good at keeping the rain out, and besides, you know it rains here all the time.  (Probably not really very funny at the moment for those in northern California.)

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Yeah now up to 42inches.. Normal=28inches.

  Front page of the paper shows each day's mudslide victims.

  Today some guy bought a new house six months ago up in the local hills.. Then a 300' X 600' chunk of the hillside came down thru their house.  Poor buggers.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

There have been incidents of cell phones causing fires in the usual industrial "intrinsic safety" environments - on offshore platforms and at oil wells. Being within 10 feet of a gas pump would classify as an intrinsic safety environment as well.

Lets not forget that some cell phones with defective batteries have exploded and caused fires even without being near a gas pump.

Despite the popularity, "Myth busters" is not an approved testing agency - and sometimes are trying to make engineering judgments far outside of their specialty.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Comcokid; I would not believe that a working cell phone would ever start a fire...  Unless someone can explain how to turn a watt of RF into a spark.
  Short of internal sparking, (which I can't picture in a cell phone).  I would believe that it could cause a sensor signal to freak out leading to mis-control of a process that could be very hazardous.  But I can see no control systems at or near a gas pump that this would ever apply to(motor on/motor off).

I also agree with your MB as not being the final word... I see total bunglelation frequently on that show.  (still fun to watch though)flowerface


Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

If cell phones are significantly dangerous around gasoline pumps, then I suppose rational logic (*) would dictate that automobiles (with their arcing and sparking open-wire ignition systems, massive solenoids, electrically-operated everything, etc. etc.) should also be kept well away from gasoline pumps at all times. One can't be too careful.


('*' indicates the flaw in the argument...)


http://www.google.com/search?q=Chardonay+in+one+hand%2C+chocolate+in+the+other

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I thought that myth was created because the pump's electronics were initially designed with very poor RFI supression.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Although it's complete bunk, most who believe it to be bunk typically think such a low-power RF signal cannot start a fire (and stop at RF being the only possibility).  If it WERE true, though, I could easily see someone trying to blame an arcing vibrator motor.  Of course, those motors don't arc, but...

Dan
Owner
http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

RFI - 0.6 watt cell phone? What about the 100,000 watt FM broadcast station around the corner?


There must be a long German compound word that refers to the scientifically-illiterate administrative staff addressing only what they can see with their own eyes buffered from the more complex reality by the vacuum of their own ignorance.  winky smile

RE: Cell Phone Spark

The maximum output RF power is 20-25dBm, depending on the carrier / technology.  This is approximately 200-250mW of power (dBM =  10 * LOG (Power) + 30).

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I got on a state regulation site for blasting caps and you only needed to be about 2,000 feet away from a 10,000W transmitter.  You wouldn't catch me that close!

Hey, it's just the lawyers.  A friend was on a jury for a colapsed deck.  The lawyer asked if anyone had worked with wood.  The people who raised thier hands were immediately dismissed from the jury pool.  They want people who are easily swayed by a weak argument.  In the end, this jury was hung till one person said they had to catch a buss at 3 and changed her vote.   You don't want people like this deciding why a person blew up!

I went into a rest room and the recirculating cotton towel machine had a label saying not to use the cotton towel to lift heavy machinery.  The things that go on in rest rooms!  Never thought they might be pulling engines there.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I've heard nasty rumors about restrooms like that!!

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Our hand-held cell phones are (supposedly) up to 600mW output.

They're the very ancient and old fashioned analog FM type from the previous millennia (circa 1999).

RE: Cell Phone Spark

As the saying somewhat goes - "Stuff Happens".

Intrinsic safety views electrical devices from the ability of the circuits to create a spark under operation or failure. IS guidelines not only look at energy sources (batteries), heat generation (resistors, light bulbs) and maximum voltages, but also the circuits ability to store enough energy in the inductance and capacitances to create an ignition source for flammable vapors/liquids. IS standards are designed to be very conservative (sometimes seemingly ridiculous) - but with the idea to keep "Stuff" from "happening". Within a few feet of a gas pump is a potential hazardous environment by definition.

The main issue of a cell phone or pager is NOT the RF - it is things like the battery, vibrator motor, and maybe that charge pump for the LED, florescent, or incandescent bulb backlight. From a IS standpoint, a good portion of a cell phone is unsafe.

How many of you remember as kids the pretty arcing/sparking you could get from your slot cars in the dark? Remember those Boy-Scout fire prevention examples using batteries, a little steel wool, and some gasoline vapors?

Stuff happens even when previously examined in detail by very experienced people and put into practice over years. How long were 747 aircraft in service before TWA fight 800 went up in a fireball over Long Island Sound? Supposedly the vapors in the 747 center fuel tank never reached an explosive ratio. They still don't exactly know what the ignition source was, but the fuel probes are suspect. Prior to this incident it was believed the low energy of the fuel level probes (a capacitance measurement device) was safe.

I have no doubt that under the proper conditions, a cell phone or pager could easily cause a fire at a gas pump. It might be rare, but it could, and possibly already has happened.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

All true, but the argument still falls apart because everything that could be claimed for a cell phone is even more true for an automobile.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

No doubt that a car is even a bigger potential ignition source. Hence the "Turn vehicle off while fueling" signs.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

How about banning cars from the vicinity of gas pumps until the catalytic temperature has been check and found to be below the safe limit.
Don't forget the turn signal with the corroded connection a couple of feet from the gas filler.
I agree with VE1BLL
respectfully

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Please stop engine and remove all batteries and portable electronic equipment from vehicle prior to approaching the pumps. Allow vehicle to sit for ten minutes to allow all capacitances to discharge, then proceed to push vehicle to pump bay where our highly trained (Oregon) fueling technician will assist you. The management.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Yukyuk! Yeah if you tried to commission vehicle fueling in the second millenium.  Course, vehicles would be illegally dangerous to even field now.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Actually, you'd just have to use diesel as the fuel.  Just doesn't have the problems that gasoline does.  So benign that if you are only dealing with diesel, there are no requirements for classified areas around the fuel or while working on the vehicles.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Cell Phones and Fuel dispensing pumps

This is a recognised issue and one that people do have to be aware of as it can and it does happen. Its a one in a million chance but you go buy lottery tickets dont ya ?

It may never happen but if it does then the losses can be huge. There could be a loose cell in the phone or the likes and there you go an arc hot enough to cause the fule vapour to ignite. Ex rated equipment can deal with and contain ensuring that the combustion products leave cool enough not to cause an issue. Your phone doesnt have that sort of protection so it does cause an issue.

rugged

RE: Cell Phone Spark

We've entered an endless loop.

21 Apr 06 4:54 = 17 Apr 06 11:22

^C

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Deja Vu!
Not a one in a million chance.  It is not a chance.  Each explosion has a definate, but maybe unknown cause.

Some cell phones have independent cells and not soldered tabs.  They can bounce and disconnect.  The voltage jump is very small and known.

Fuel ignition safety requires a 500 Volt limit.  Since cell phones are well below this limit, the cell phone arcs are not involved.

Spreading fear and misinformation is bad to do.  It can be counterproductive to true solutions.

What human damage could have been avoided if the energy going into misinformation was directed to problem reduction?

jsolar

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Hey VisiGoth
On the one hand, I don't believe that cell phones are a hazard but on the other hand I don't understand your statement "Fuel ignition safety requires a 500 Volt limit.  Since cell phones are well below this limit, the cell phone arcs are not involved."
Does this mean that I can use my 200 amp arc welder on the full gas tank? The open circuit voltage is only 70 volts.
????

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Try it!  Have your heirs tell us the results.lol

Believe it or not our city's fire chief tried it.. He's dead now.

Visigoth; I don't have the tables with me, but if I remember correctly, you need about 9 Volts to set off gasoline.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Hi itsmoked
Actually I think that I'ts an energy thing and any quoted voltage will have a corresponding current that may not be mentioned. I'm pretty sure we could generate an appropriate send-off for your old Renault with 2 volts from one cell of the battery.
Take lots of pictures!!
Respectfully

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Ha!  No it already died.. It was hit by a drunk cop who also went across our sidewalk thru our 15 foot high hedge, across our apricot tree, thru the hedge again, clipped off our mailbox,(which stuck on his rear bumper), across our driveway, thru our board fence, thru our other hedge, into our neighbors yard, clipped of their clothesline 4x4, thru their back hedge, across the alley and into a creek.  Which he backed out of and then fled down the alley, but not before my dad noted our mailbox on his bumper and his licence plate.  But anyway that gives you the measure of the energy put into my faithful R-10. All the wheels on one side where folded under the car when they fetched up against the curb.  I pulled the freshly rebuilt engine out and it now powers a 10kW two bearing generator. :)

As for energy, you do actually need that voltage +/- 1 or 2V to ignite flammable mixtures and that is even boosted with inductors or capacitors.  As far as I know you can not ignite a flammable mixture with less than 9V or so.  You can scratch a dry cell all day long and you will not get ignition.  Now I am not talking about heating a thin wire up with 40A at 2V I am talking about the sparks from opening a circuit.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I'll plead "No contest". Not sure but I'm not going to contradict you and I'm not going to try any experiments. I don't want to be trading stories with your fire chief.
BTW, what did you use for a governor?
Respectfully

RE: Cell Phone Spark

It is IMPOSSIBLE.... period!

RE: Cell Phone Spark

melone; There are several discussions going on here so I'm not sure what you are referring too.

####################################


I think the general answer to the cell-phone-igniting-a-gasoline-fire while fueling your car at the local self serve is as follows.

1) Yes! A cell phone could ignite gas fumes if it is held next to a dribbling gas nozzle and it malfunctions in an explosive manner.

2) How often does a cellphone explosively malfunction?  Maybe 20 a year in the world and how often does it happen during a fueling operation? Not very often. 1.92x10-29times per year.

3) A car is more likely to ignite the gasoline vapors than a cellphone.

4) The RF could not come close to igniting anything.

5) People who get ignited are those who get in and out of a fueling vehicle. Nothing to do with a correctly functioning cell phone.
####################################

waross;  Very good question about the gov.. One I cannot at present answer.  So far I have only mated the generator to the engine in a vertical over-under chassis via a Gates cogged power belt.  I hand throttled it for 10 minutes.
I'll probably work up a microcontroller servo system.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Interesting discussion. I am richer in knowledge because of it. I have been and will again work aboard and in the tanks of a fuel barge which carries 18,800,000 liters of gasoline. When in the tanks with all that vapor (empty) I think of little things such as: do I have my cell phone on me (against regulations), do I have an intrinsically safe flashlight with me (as per regulations), is anybody taking a smoke break in the tank beside me (against regulations).

After a look at the net and various sites, I personally believe that it is possible for a cell phone to malfunction in a way to ignite gasoline vapors under certain conditions. Although this would be a remote possibility, I prefer not to take that chance in such a large tank where the chance of survival of myself, and the team I am with, is zero.
I think safety is about doing what we can. We can have intrinsically safe radios and flashlights, so we do.
We can have a regulation that prohibits people carrying cigarettes and lighters in their pockets, so we do.
We do what we can to eliminate all possibility of accidental death but there are limits. I don't think a regulation prohibiting spark ignition vehicles near the gasoline refilling station is very rational (although we have this regulation on board the tanker) or even a simple regulation where a qualified refueller does the fill up in an approved manner (Would be complains of raised costs).
It is hard enough to get people to quit smoking at refuelling stations. I have never seen or heard of a local incidence of a fuel fire from a local station in my town and I don't want one to happen when I am around the station.
I think that it is a good guideline to try to keep cellphones away from the nozzle of the gas pump.  I personally don't mind a little inconvenience to ensure the safety of others.

What about a half way such as asking for cell phones to be kept in the vehicle while refueling.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Interesting stuff frankiee;  You must have some really big kahunas cuz you could not pay me enough to enter a gasoline tank.

  I believe the cell phone gas thing is like so much other stuff in our world.  There is some hazard associated with just about anything.  Everything we do has a risk of killing us. Drinking from a water tap can provide poison or that fatal germ. Taking a shower. Watching a TV. Riding in a motor vehicle.  And talking on a cell phone while standing in front of a (now days) sealed vacuum pumped gasoline nozzle.  You just have to make that personal decision of what is "too risky for me".  I have made the decision that with the sealed vacuum gas nozzle and the chance of my cell phone explosively failing while I'm standing there, the odds of disaster are so long as to be down in the 'noise'.  I'm not going to worry about it.

  Far more important in all this is just when to use a cell phone and when not.  Worrying about not using it while fueling then using it as you drive away out into the streets while driving is a hazard most assuredly 'not down in the noise'.  The same could probably be said for operating the gas nozzle, the hazard is doing something wrong while pumping the gas due to a cell phone distraction (CPD - SeaPeaDee).

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

The US Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) reported a recall of Kyocera cellphone batteries that had 4 reported cases of catastrophic failure with sufficient heat generated to cause one minor burn injury:

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/cpsr_nws33.pdf (Page 11)

Additionally, FMA indicates a lithium ignition risk if the battery casing is ruptured:
http://www.fmadirect.com/support_docs/item_1197.pdf (Page 3)

So while the risk of either is still seemingly remote, they are clearly non-zero.

TTFN



RE: Cell Phone Spark

frankiee: Imagine you're in that fumed-filled fuel barge tank, but with half a dozen cars and or motorcycles coming, stopping, starting and going every few minutes. Do you think that you'll be worried about your cell phone with all that traffic in the fuel barge with you?

Most of the 'Exploding Cell Phone' arguments only make sense in the complete absense of cars. In the vicinity of a gasoline pump, that's nonsense.


RE: Cell Phone Spark

A normally operating vehicle with a distributor has a tortuous path to get to the spark within the distributor.  An electronic ignition won't even have that.  

But worn or frayed spark plug wire could surely generate a big fat spark.  So if you arrange to spray some gas into the engine compartment AND have a faulty wire set...

TTFN



RE: Cell Phone Spark

Cars igniting gas stations is extremely unlikely.

Cell phones - a thousand (a million?) times less likely.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Lets follow the logic of IRstuff posting of cell phone battery explosions.

How likely is it that a cell phone battery would explode? How likely is it that a person would actually be using the cell phone at the time the battery exploded? How likely is it that someone would be actually filming the person at the very time that the cell phone battery exploded?.

Put these three conditions together and you would probably say it is extremely remote at best. Yet, it has already happened. I saw the video on a 20/20 or 60-minutes type news program a few months ago.

There was an incident about 4 years ago when the vibator of a cell phone cause a flash fire at an oil well (in Texas?) Several people heard the vibrator immediately before the fire. Several people were burned. I wish I had kept a copy of the article. This is no doubt a more hazardous situation that a consumer gas station, but it involves the same elements. There was also a situation on a off-shore oil platform a few years ago involving a cell phone. However online I can find references to the incident but no details.

Like I said earlier - "Stuff Happens"

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I design cell phones for a living.  The vibrator voltage is not enough to generate a spark.  The only way the cell phone could ignite gas fumes is if something catastrophic were to happen to the battery, i.e. explode due to an internal short.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Comcokid - your latest argument appears logical, but because it ignores the tendency of cars (obviously far more dangerous than cell phones) to congregate around gasoline filling stations, it is meaningless.

CAR CARS CARS - don't forget the CARS.

Reminds me of commercial airline travel and nail clippers.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Lawyer solutions:
- force a ground wire between the car and the fuel pump before fueling, like in airports.
- or force the cars to drop a chain down to the ground upon ignition off.
- ban synthetic clothes like microfiber, goretex, nylon, fortrel, to reduce the odds of developng static charges.
- ban women customers in self-serve gas stations
- ban Renaults from US territory (oops it's already done, Keith you're an outlaw)
- install a big post sign telling people to discharge themselves on the fuel pump frame before filling up
- force people to put a ground-connected conductive bracer while fueling.
- ban common sense, not enough people have it.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

lol
"- ban common sense, not enough people have it."
(and it cuts into lawyer income.)

"Keith you're an outlaw"  No surprise there!

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

VE1BLL - I would talk a lot more about the CARS, but this thread is titled "Cell Phone Spark" :)

And Melone, I do Intrinsic Safety, and devices that mount on those gas tanks at filling stations as part on my engineering work. I once gave a talk to a large group of Boeing sensor Engineers on a new fuel measurement technology just a few weeks after TWA flight 800. I was barraged with questions and comments from a group of what (at the time) seemed to me to be some rather stressed engineers. Two weeks after this presentation, it came out in the news that the focus of the investigation had changed from a missle and to the center fuel tank! I've never forgotten that experience and the way the engineers seem to stress that even the published conservitive standards and that passed tests were not even good enough! The inductance in the windings a vibrator motor alone exceeds safe limits - not to mention that this inductance is fed by brushes running a contact - a V = L*di/dt that in a ideal circuit sends V to infinity when the contacts bounce or switch and i becomes discontinuous.

Like I said - "Stuff Happens" It's only a matter of how much risk we are willing to accept in our society. As it is, if you are pumping gas into your car, you are much more likely to be hit by a drunk driving into the station for another bottle of beer than a cell phone to ignite the fuel vapors. But just because it's less likely does not mean that it will not happen.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

True, but just because the probablity is non-0, doesn't mean that it is "risky".  An asteroid could come crashing down to the earth, and knock your keys out of your hand.  Then, your flying keys could strike the metal body in the vicinity of your gas tank.  This would then ignite the fumes.  However, nobody seems too concerned about this scenario, because it is unlikely (but not impossible).  I don't have the actual probabilities of each scenario, but my gut tells me they are on the same order of magnitude..... VERY unlikely.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

This sure proves my theory!

"The number of replies is inversely proportional to the number of components required in providing a solution."

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Yeah, heading for the "Water level down the hole" length thread.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

What if ?!

What if you answer the phone while you are filling the car ?

What if the battery connections are lose or that vibrator aint quite right ?

What if there is enough fuel vapour around your phone ?

What if that spark ignites the fuel ?

What if you get a fright and drop the flaming nozzel and it sprays you with gas ?

What if your clothes catch alight ?

What if the burning fuel finds a way to reach those under ground tanks that are partially full as its mid way between fill ups ?

What if the fuel vapour ignites and blows the tank out the ground ?

What if you die from your injuries ?

Life is full of unknowns - you may answer that phone tell your wife your 10 minutes from home go pay for the gas and then drive home with nothing happening.

BUT What if ?

A risk has been identified an attempt has been made to try and limit this risk. But I can tell you if some schmuk tried to answer the phone beside me while I was filling up my car he would require some surgery to remove the phone. Its not safe - its been proved that its not safe so why have this discussion about it being a risk or not. Id prefer not to take that chance.

Its like mobiles near to UPS units - now Im talking big uns, say 2MW rated its been shown that the phone radiated rf can have an issue with them. Ive been beside one of those units when its tried to mesh with the utility power unsyncronised - not a great place to be and I can say that ones trousers ended up heavily soiled. Ive seen the effect so if someone now tells me not to use a phone near them as they dont like it then I will not use a phone near them.

Like petrol pumps I know what can happen Ive seen the video I know that fire hurts and an explosion could kill, I like life so Im not going to go and risk this by having a conversation...... while I fill up the car.

Rugged

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Zoom out by an order of magnitude and you'll notice the cars. The illogic can be suffocating when the slightly-larger picture is consistently (intentionally?) ignored. In other words: "What if the guy next to me is done filling up and ~gasp~ he starts his car to leave while I'm still pumping fuel?"

[And perhaps, "What if the 'schmuk' with the call phone has studied martial arts for 26 years?" Now there's a risk, especially if you're wearing a kilt. smile ]

A person's reaction to a 'brazillion-to-one' risk item, when surrounded by hundreds of million-to-one risk items, is....revealing.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

ruggedscot, show me EXACTLY where it has been "proved that its not safe".  We must strive to prevent emotional reaction to facts (threats of physical violence don't really add to the persuasivness of your argument).

I don't think that anyone would disagree that the probability of a component failure (battery rupture, EL driver malfunction causing a spark, etc.) is NOT 0.  However, the likelihood of this even happening is VIRTUALLY 0.  You are MUCH more likely to be ignited by static electricity (entering your vehicle while fueling, not turning off the engine, etc., http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/05/earlyshow/main706202.shtml, http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa062399.htm, ...), than a cell phone component failure.  Proof of this has been documented on several TV shows, Mythbusters, 20/20, etc..  I have not seen any reason for these shows to have a vested interest in passing bad information regarding the safety of cell phones at gas stations.  Obviously, I could be wrong, but it isn't readily apparent to me.

Finally, there are regulations that we (cell phone designers) must meet regarding the safety of our products.  Being a spark generation device is UNACCEPTABLE!

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I stand corrected.....

'brazillion-to-one' risk VE1BLL this reminded me,

A blond was watching the news and the reported said that a brazilan has been killed in an accident and she said that it must have been one hell of an accident to kill a brazillion.....

Im not an aggressive guy but why do they put signs up telling you not to use the phone while pumping gas ? Im sure that petrol companies dont spend money like that if there was no risk identified.

I know someone who runs three forecourts and well lets just say extracting a lions tooth would be easier than getting money out of Shell Esso Jet BP or the like..... So there must be some thing in there to spook them.

Rugged

RE: Cell Phone Spark

I saw all the "NO CELL PHONE" signs go up at the peak of the hullabaloo then about a month later when this was found to be a bunch of malarkey they all came right back down.  At least in my town.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

RE: Cell Phone Spark

Turning off your engine while fueling is prudent and required. But as others have pointed out, the other vehicles are permitted to come and go while the pumps are operating. My ignition coil and spark plug wires are a good way away from my fuel inlet, it's the other vehicle behind mine that has these components close. Consider a car with the filler under the rear license plate, and the front engine vehicle who crowds him in order to get the hose to reach (they've gotten shorter lately). He'll probably rev the engine a couple times before shutting down for good measure. Ever fire up your engine in the dark and look under the hood? (a good overcast night is a good time to check your ignition system) An older vehicle can have quite a light show going on.

RE: Cell Phone Spark

The recurring cheap crummy replacement battery deal again.

You'd think that with CP carriers giving out new phones constantly that no one would need a new battery.

Keith Cress
Flamin Systems, Inc.- http://www.flaminsystems.com

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