degree C
degree C
(OP)
Part of my job responsibilities are as thermography program engineer (predictive maintenance to find bad connections).
Repeatedly I will write a report for internal plant customers with title "thermal hotspot on panel ABC". It will begin: "During a routine thermography survey, a thermal hotspot was located on panel ABC. The temperature rise above adjacent phase was 12C" (or how ever many degrees).
Every time my boss will tell me to add a degree symbol. I am not particularly interested in what is right by the Queen's English or whatever other standard is out there, but what will be understood. From the context it is crystal clear what is meant. Isn't it our jobs to communicate in the most efficient manner?
It's only one or two extra keystrokes I know. But it's the principle of the thing. Additionaly it causes more problems because sometimes I have to cut/paste portions of the report into programs that don't accept special characters (in which case I am expected to go edit the text and type out degrees). I can do it, but it really bugs me.
Repeatedly I will write a report for internal plant customers with title "thermal hotspot on panel ABC". It will begin: "During a routine thermography survey, a thermal hotspot was located on panel ABC. The temperature rise above adjacent phase was 12C" (or how ever many degrees).
Every time my boss will tell me to add a degree symbol. I am not particularly interested in what is right by the Queen's English or whatever other standard is out there, but what will be understood. From the context it is crystal clear what is meant. Isn't it our jobs to communicate in the most efficient manner?
It's only one or two extra keystrokes I know. But it's the principle of the thing. Additionaly it causes more problems because sometimes I have to cut/paste portions of the report into programs that don't accept special characters (in which case I am expected to go edit the text and type out degrees). I can do it, but it really bugs me.
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RE: degree C
In general, using symbols in nonstandard ways does not enhance communication. A "Celsius" (unlike a Kelvin) is not a unit. Your wanting "C" to mean "degree Celsius" to save a keystroke does not make it so.
"The most efficient manner" does not mean saving YOU a couple of keystrokes to have the absolute minimum that anyone might possibly understand. For that matter, why bother with correct spelling and grammar? Why not use something akin to SMS slang? It savz karakters and theyl no wat u ment NEway.
A sad fact of life is that SI is not set up for typing everythng in ASCII. Do you also insist on using a "u" in place of mu?
Hg
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RE: degree C
But alas they don't. I did it on a report a while ago about an excessive ambient situation (solar radiation on an outdoor control panel) causing failures, and wrote "...but the recorded internal temperature peaked at 63-C for over 3hrs." One of the "managers" at the facility sent back a question asking me what and where the "63-C" unit was, apparently thinking I was describing a device in the box, not the temperature of the internal air. Go figure.
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RE: degree C
All I know is that a wayward glace may see "120" instead of "12C". The addition of a degree symbol would prevent a misundestanding.
RE: degree C
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RE: degree C
12°C can be misinterpretted as 120C
12C cannot be misinterpretted as 120C.
It could be interpretted as 120 but 120 what? If you read C as 0, then there are no units so your mind recognizes a problem and will naturally drag you back to reexamine the thing you just misread. Right?
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RE: degree C
RE: degree C
Maybe I'll go back to what I did before email; 63degC
RE: degree C
BTW, whenever C is used, a space is needed. i.e., 100° C
For F, no space. i.e., 100°F
Chris
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RE: degree C
However, there are plenty of style guides out there that call for no space at all (5°C).
If I were writing the rules, I'd attach the degree symbol to the number (just like the official rules says to do for angular measurement--I've never understood why the two kinds of degrees are treated differently) and then have the C a space away (5° C).
This is not the first time I've heard about having different conventions for F and for C, but I've never understood it, and never been able to trace it to anything reputable. (I've even had someone tell me that one of them requires the degree symbol and the other doesn't.) The best I can figure is that there was one popular way of doing it, and then when SI and all its codification came along, something else got established in writing for Celsius that no one went back and applied to Fahrenheit, and then somehow that came to mean different styles for different units, at least for some people.
Hg
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RE: degree C
RE: degree C
Spelling errors don't matter as long as the reader can understand your letter? Not a chance.
Got a great hypothesis on whay a failure occured? Unless you can explain it properly, it will never be properly aired.
This, BTW, is one of the strongest bits of advice I gave my children while they were in school - LEARN TO WRITE, AND WRITE WELL!
If you boss insists on your presenting proper text; consider this:
1. He's Right!
2. He's the Boss!
As a junior person, I think you've better see the light, and take your boss's direction for what it is - direction, AND good advice.
RE: degree C
I agree it is generally wise to accept advice from your boss, especially on small items that can easily be accommodated. But there is a limit! When it comes to profound and consequentialissues such as the degree symbol, I simply have to draw the line and stand up against oppression
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RE: degree C
If you could know the windmills I've tilted (and lost)!
BTW, To enter the degree sign, use <Alt 0176> on the numeric keyboard, with Num Lock on.
Or, in TGML, [°] or [°]°.
respectfully
RE: degree C
Save your precious keystrokes and make your boss happy. Everybody wins.
RE: degree C
RE: degree C
Not saying that is right, that's just the way I do it.
Cheers
Greg Locock
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RE: degree C
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RE: degree C
12 °C is the abbreviation for twelve degrees Celcius.
Thus writing 12 C to represent a temperature is plain wrong.
Interestingly when temperature is quoted in Kelvin, the degree symbol (and word) are omitted.
There is a reasonable list of S.I. units and their relationships to the seven base S.I. units at http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/units.html
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: degree C
At last, you have come up with the right point! C is Coulomb. Btw, one or twelve of them, it's still just "Coulomb", isn't it? Or else another smart aleck could comeup with 1 C but 12 Cs.
Originally the temperature unit was "degree Centigrade" and later was changed to "Celcius" in honor of the man Anders. At that time I read somewhere that it was also decided to drop the degree and the symbol, too. Following the same logic as in K and not °K for Kelvin.
So, while 12 °C had meant 12 degrees Centigrade in the old convention, and 12 C meant just 12 Celcius.
That's how it should have been but for the Coulomb.
RE: degree C
I do this; when I need to write the ° symbol, I do it. Once. Mostly using the 'insert symbol' function. I then mark it and ctrl-c it. It is then an easy matter to ctrl-v it when it is needed again. And if you need to copy/paste other things in-between, it is an easy matter to ctrl-c the ° again. If needed.
I also use centigrades written out. I think that it clear enough. Even if I, of course, thinks that it is a good thing to remember my fellow countryman Anders Celsius (not Celcius).
A similar problem exists with (also fellow countryman) Ångström for 10^-10 m. There you have two problems, the "Å" and the "ö". Seen that solved in many different ways, an "A" being the most common. But don't know if it is standardised in any way.
The °C vs K thing has been mentioned so many times that I hardly need to take it up again. But here goes: °C is a unit for temperature while "K" is used for temperature difference and is used without any ° before or after. I can here some saying "not true, K is the absolute temperature" - No, I answer. It is temperature difference. Always. It is often used to express absolute temperature, but then you need to tell what reference temperature you are using. Like 4.2 K above absolute zero. The "above" is redundant, but is used for historical(?) reasons. Or simply becaus scientists and engineers are also humans and no robots and use little superfluous words sometimes.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: degree C
To Gunnar Englund, I always understood an absolute scale measurement is free of references and, per se, cannot be a "difference". Was I wrong all along ?
Anyway, it seems that the term "absolute" has now been replaced by "thermodynamic" when referring to temperature in Kelvins.
http:
RE: degree C
You probably know more about this than I do. Chemical (and "physical") people are the specialists.
But, still. I have always used K for temperature rise, like "20 K above ambient". To use °C would have been totally wrong there since °C is a temperature and not a difference. That's why I characterize the K as a temperature difference. And tying that difference to the absolute zero makes it an absolute temperature.
Saying "20 K above ambient" and keeping the absolute meaning would be utter nonsense. If you try to decifer that, you would probably end up with something like "-253 °C above ambient".
So, I stay with the use of K for temperature difference (with the "above absolute zero" when needed) and °C for temperatures. At least, that's the European convention. But, as I said before; what is true in Jena is a joke in Heidelberg - and probably also in Huston or Washington D.C.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: degree C
http://www.bipm.fr/en/si/base_units/kelvin.html
They don't say why they decided not to make kelvins degrees, but my guess is they wanted a base unit to be a base unit, but kept the "degree" part of Celsius for the same reason they kept Celsius at all--as a practical concession to common practice, i.e., for tradition.
Hg
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RE: degree C
I put hte space in the wrong place.
Should be 100 °C not 100° C.
Should be 100° F not 100 °F.
Chris
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RE: degree C
No. Jargon, slang and expecially computer shorthand are examples of things to avoid in a written report.
For example, would you use "u r rite" in a report for "you are right"? Probably not I would guess. Or, how about "wrt" in a report to represent "with respect to"? Probably not again.
Standards, and for that matter, the Queen's english, exist to clarify communication. Using "12C", "12-C" or "12 C" is to be avoided (that coulomb thing aside). If nothing else, that is one less wrong thing for your boss to associate with u.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: degree C
And I can't dispute that it's generally a good thing to do what your boss wants.
One thing I have to point out is that certainly not all "written reports" are created equal. If you are delivering a report to a sophisticated external client, you'd darned well better polish it. If you are communicating to industrial plant internal customers who for the most part don't have college degrees, and tend to type their own emails in ALL CAPS, you may conclude that the level of effort appropriate to expend on formatting and presentation is not the same.
Is it fully expand every acronym/abbreviation the first time it's used? Probably so for the external customer. You could double your typing time if you had to spell out every TLA where I work... with no benefit because the TLA's should be well-known by the audience.
So I would humbly submit that what is right and what is appropriate depends on the circumstances. For purposes of grammar forum, I am grateful to know what is the proper thing to do. For purposes of completing my daily grind efficiently, shortcuts are appropriate.
On a closing note, at this link:
http://www.shrinksleeve.com/product3.htm
I see the phrase "Operating Temperature Range -55C to 105C". I am totally confused as to why they are using Coulombs as a unit of temperature. It is really baffling to me. I can't understand what they mean.
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RE: degree C
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: degree C
Naresuan University
Phitsanulok
Thailand
RE: degree C
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France
RE: degree C
cheers,
rad
"According to my calculations the problem doesn't exist."
RE: degree C
Thus in writing about a specific temperature, as opposed to it being quoted in an equation, one should say "twelve degrees centigrade" but it was impressed on me at an early age that when refering to a temperature diference one ought to say "Twelve centigrade degrees". I will concede that if there is going to be comment about a missing "O" there will certainly be much time required to debate the apparent misplacment of the symbol: 12 CO.
OK, I am now ready to be shot down.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: degree C
If you are having some issues with confusing Coulombs with degrees Celsius, you could aways consider the implications of using the F-System: http://www.galactic-guide.com/articles/2R137.html
In this system we use the fortnight (ft)as the unit of time, and the furlong (fl) as the unit of length. (Temperature is in Fahrenheit, of course!) To get a unit of force and mass we use two electrical units, the farad for capacitance (f), and the Faraday for charge (F).
In this system the unit of current is the Faraday/fortnight (F/ft), and the unit of potential difference is the Faraday/farad (F/f). Thus the unit of power is (F^2/(f ft)) and the unit of energy is the (F^2/f). Finally, the unit of mass is, of course, (F^2 ft^2)/(f fl^2), or square Faradays square fortnights per square furlong farad. This unit is about 2.3 atto kg.
No need to worry about confusing degrees Celsius with Coulombs now - but Faradays, Farads, Fahrenheit, furlongs, and fortnights are another matter!
RE: degree C
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RE: degree C
Since we are discussing clarity and risk of misunderstanding, I did not like to think of anyone misunderstanding this and taking me seriously. I also wanted to avoid a discussion whether I did mean what I wrote, literally. I also didn't want to write out the obvious. So the "IWHMPWMT" is sort of an insurance against lengthy discussions. It simply means "I Wonder How Many People Will Misunderstand This"
It probably was not necessary - but it didn't cost much to put there.
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: degree C
Chris
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RE: degree C
RE: degree C
RE: degree C
But why stop there; that sort of mentality woulc just as easily save an equal amount by dropping the leading e and referring to an employee as "Mploye"
They could save more by using a different term altogether:
Peon, Slave, Robot (the Czeck word for worker).... any othe suggestions?
However, how true is this? When companies look for fancy ways to describe things such as "Human Resources" instead of "personel" one kinda doubts this is aligned with normal management thought processes (see the thread on "Management Speak"). Better yet, every so often companies will "rebrand" themselves and spend millions on invisible changes to the logo and changing the type font etc causing them to have to scrap tons of pre-printed stationary.... saving an "e" hardly seems credable... except, of course, we are dealing with the management mind and all things are possible, especially if contradictory.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: degree C
Around 5 years ago they changed it back. I guess they got too many calls from people pointing out mispellings.
Then again, when did American spelling drop the "u" in "gauge"? I never saw the "gage" spelling till my second increment of engineering school starting in 1995.
Hg
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RE: degree C
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France
RE: degree C
Gauge in UK and the colonies. Gage in the US.
Here is another one: Aluminium (UK) / Aluminum (US)
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: degree C
Or perhaps that is all a myth? I shall duck out now and hide!
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: degree C
If all the uneducated immigrants came from Europe, how come European languages didn't get all "changed"?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: degree C
ASTM-SI-10 and ISO-1000 standards. Also, it's part of the ASME Y14.100-2000 and MIL-T-31000B
Chris
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RE: degree C
Thanks for the standard references ctopher
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France
RE: degree C
Gunnar Englund
www.gke.org
RE: degree C
RE: degree C
In fact, how is it possible to pronounce gauge as g'Age at all?
Btw, Google returns 7,180,000 hits for guage, 57,900,000 for gauge and 38,200,000 for gage.
I agree, ScottyUK, now I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: degree C
Chris
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RE: degree C
lose - to misplace, or to be defeated?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: degree C
I haven't seen "guage". That's new for me. Where is "guage" used?
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
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RE: degree C
If you have the Machinery's Handbook, it's covered:
http
Chris
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RE: degree C
Google search
Results 1 - 10 of about 7,170,000 for guage.
Did you mean: gauge
It's comforting to know that I am not the only one who is "Spelling challenged".
Does anyone remember PALL MALL CAN'T SPALL!
It was based on the Pall Mall brand of cigarettes that was pronounced in many areas "Pell Mell"
respectfully
RE: degree C
As an Englishman I wish this were true. However, if you study the evolution of our shared language, you'll be forced to admit that that the American and British versions of English are equally different from the language as it was at the split.
RE: degree C
RE: degree C
At the time of the split (a couple of centuries earlier than 1776), spelling wasn't all *that* standardized anyway.
A number of American spellings, however ("jail" instead of "gaol" comes to mind and I'm too lazy to google for the rest), come from Noah Webster who decided to simplify things when he wrote his dictionary.
Hg
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RE: degree C
I've got to agree that jail is much better than gaol. Aluminum instead of aluminium? Awful. Check instead of cheque? Not sure - just proves that English itself is a mix of languages.
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: degree C
If you really want tho get into a discussion on spelling, take a look at this web site. http://www.barnsdle.demon.co.uk/spell/histsp.html
Have fun.
B.E.
RE: degree C
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RE: degree C
There are many who are waiting to be caught up with. It's the few who hold on to the established convention. :)
RE: degree C
Why not just follow the standards that have been around already? Don't worry about misspellings, just use the standards. If everyone used them, this thread wouldn't be here.
Chris
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RE: degree C
Well said!
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I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...
RE: degree C
Systems Analyst, I.S.
Isn't it standard practice to spell out abbreviations the first time they are used? Why don't you follow the standard?
Also what is that 05 and 06 stuff... a year? (I don't see the apostrohpe)... a program revision number?
These things are a lot less obvious to your diverse audience here on the eng-tips grammar forum than my statements ("During a routine thermography survey, a thermal hotspot was located on panel ABC. The temperature rise above adjacent phase was 12C") which are reported to a very narrow audience of plant customers who expect me to write about temperature rise (not Coulombs).
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RE: degree C
electricpete, I was not trashing you, just asking a question.
Chris
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RE: degree C
Your reason as far as I understand it would be based upon your judgement of the appropriate level of effort and detail to put into your writing, given the circumstances and the audience. My reason is the same. I believe the argument for a reasonable expectation of understanding based on context and audience is far stronger in my case than yours.
As far as standards, there is no ASTM, ISO, ASME or MIL standard that governs the required use of special characters in my reporting to internal plant customers. The important aspects of that communication are efficiency and effectiveness.
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RE: degree C
I may be stupid, but I didn't catch it there...
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France
RE: degree C
[cited on www.shakespeares-globe.org]
RE: degree C
how I wish it were that simple,
I'd like to agree with you but got thoroughly shot down for this ealsewhere, probably with some justification.
Our audience is frequently not our intended audience.
How many times have you discovered something you wrote ended up elsewhere? People are essentially lazy, it is so much easier these days to simply email "stuff" on without editing it. I've been caught this way myself several times explaing something for a sales engineer only to discover he copied the whole thing to the client...
Then again it is easy to misunderstand or be misunderstood by even our intended audience. er, correct em if I'm wrong but isn't yuour boss part of your intended audience?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: degree C
I think this thread has about run its course. Anyone who hopes to convince me to change my opinion will not succeed. Likewise I don’t think that repeating my earlier comments serves any further useful purpose.
Time to play the agree to disagree card?
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RE: degree C
I don't believe this is true across the board. At least, not as far as engineering drawings are concerned, but I digress...
RE: degree C
Spaces before and after the ...
Chris
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RE: degree C
Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France