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Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

(OP)
This year marks the 200th anniversary of the birth of Isambard Kingdom Brunel.  During the course of his career he designed railways, bridges, tunnels, cruise liners and a whole host more. His skills traversed boundaries such as civil, mechanical, structural, architectural.  For a single engineer he was remarkbly prolific with a large number of his structures still in daily use.  In addition to this he was a superstar of the day.

But, do we still have the ability to create engineering masterpieces today, or has all the legislation, standardisation and code development taken that away from us?  Will we ever see the likes of IKB again?

Any thoughts?





http://www.brunel200.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pimp

"The world keeps turning, it keeps me in my place; where I stand is only three miles from space"
Spiritualized

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Was it Brunel or Gooch who said "Brakes? I design my engines to go, not to stop" or words to that effect...

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

(OP)
Pass, I haven't heard that one before.  I like this one though:

"I am opposed to the laying down of rules or conditions to be observed in the construction of bridges lest the progress of improvement tomorrow might be embarrassed or shackled by recording or registering as law the prejudices or errors of today"
I K brunel

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

on the victorian theme ...
there was a very nice program on Discovery some weeks (months?) back about the London sewers ...

ask yourself this, if we were building a civil project today would it essentially still do the job 100 years later ?

i think we'd design to today's needs (just maybe a little cushion for some growth) 'cause it'd get penny pinched to death.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Quote:

But, do we still have the ability to create engineering masterpieces today, or has all the legislation, standardisation and code development taken that away from us?  Will we ever see the likes of IKB again?

How about:

"Does Brunel have the ability to create engineering masterpieces today, or has all the legislation, standardisation and code development taken that away from him?"

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

(OP)
Ashereng, Good answer.  I often use that approach of rearranging a question and passing it back to the originator.

I think that there is no doubt IKB could not have operated his projects in todays climate because while they were brilliant, they were also very expensive in terms of human lives.  Which a lot of the legislation has helped to improve, but unfortunately the industry does still kill people.

But, when he was working there were a handful of people who could do the work he was doing, so much so that each of these exponents became famous and the public flocked to see the construction undertaken.  Nowadays there are a lot more professional engineers working on high profile projects but it is often the company not the individual which takes the credit.  We dont really have 'engineering frontmen' anymore.  Although the same cannot be said for Architects.

This perhaps raises another question about the PR aspects of engineering work.  Have we lost the skill to make ourselves look good in the eyes of the public.  I think this is a resounding yes based on a number of previous threads.

That said, I still think IKB would have been a remakable engineer in todays climate (even if I cant prove it) smile

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Ussuri,

Lots of good points there.

When did the age of "engineering frontmen" end?  I can think of names like Mitchell and Wallis from the thirties and forties, and von Braun and Koroliev from the fifties and sixties - but who after that?

A.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

It looks like the "engineering frontman" end came with the demise of the slide rule and the advent of the computer.  The computer let the bean counters generate the pretty graphs and charts that management could understand and all of a sudden they ruled the roost as every engineer had to justify and account for everything he did.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

maybe the space shuttle designers ...

seriously, i think they did a good (great?) job with the tools they were given.

how about rutan ?

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

zeusfaber,

Gordon Moore - Intel. "Moore's Law"

Moore earned a B.S. in Chemistry from the University of California at Berkeley and a Ph.D. in Chemistry and Physics from the California Institute of Technology. He was born in San Francisco, Calif., on Jan. 3, 1929.
He is a director of Gilead Sciences Inc., a member of the National Academy of Engineering, and a Fellow of the IEEE. Moore also serves on the Board of Trustees of the California Institute of Technology. He received the National
Medal of Technology from President George Bush in 1990.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

zuesfaber- how about Colin Chapman, the founder of Lotus, who brought aerodymanics and the monocoque chassis to motor sport: basically all F1 and Indy cars today look the way they do because of him?

But you could argue that when IKB was in his pomp, engineering was still a young science.  So the place to look for modern equivalents of IKB at al would be a young science like computing, where as well as Moore, you have famous names like Bill Gates and so on.



RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

What was special back then is more common place today.  Look what we do today with less time and less money and less man-power.  We're doing all right as far as holding our own though we aren't all producing masterpieces.  What could we accomplish today if we were also given plenty of time and money to build structures with a design life of 200 years, or a safety factor of 20?  There's a reason we don't still do that: because no one wants to pay for it.  I don't think that means we can't however.  We have bridges that span miles, machines that go into space and other machines that do billions or maybe trillions of calculations per second.  We did ok.   

Noting that he was a superstar of his day, look what our superstars are: actors and ball-players, not exactly the people you think of when you think of intellect.  Society doesn't like us for our brains anymore!

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Its no longer Victorian Engineering Brilliance, its the 21st century and the world is more complicated. IKB was brilliant at a wide base of subjects and pushed back a lot of boundaries - yes for sure. Today, however, how would he get on? The depth of knowledge required for a single subject is now much deeper than in IKB's day so now there is less chance of being able to shine over a broad range.

Compare this with a caveman in neolithic (?) times - if he invented the stone axe, killed a beast for food with the axe and also found a cave for his tribe to live in he would have been regarded as a god who knew everything there was to know.

Having said that, sure there are brilliant engineers with ability and vision but in a much smaller sphere of activity, perhaps thats why they don't always get the broad recognition they deserve.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

"Brakes? I design my cars to go, not to stop" was attributed to Ettore Bugatti in answer to criticism of his cars' brakes.

"Guesswork is best ... if it's right" Was the maxim of an old guy I knew years ago who learned his art in the early 20th Century. I think there was a lot of inspired guesswork in Victorian engineering which probably encouraged innovation.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Almost everything mechanical, worth having, on cars was done by 1925. Usually by Lanchester.

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Really? Lanchester invented air bags, anti lock brakes and coffee mug holders right next to your seat?

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

With emphasis on the word "Almost" I agree with GregLocock.
I guess we can agree to disagree.
respectfully

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

OK prost. I will admit there were mechanical anti lock brakes, and Lanchester didn't invent them, and he didn't invent the inertia reel seat belt either.

As for bloody cup holders...

Cheers

Greg Locock

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RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Greg,

How about the "real imitation metal wood grain" on the side of my Chrysler minivan? Or would that not be mechanical? Hee Hee auto

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
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RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

That was invented long before Lanchester was a baby. I used to know someone who's 1780 house had fake woodgrain painted on the real wood panelling!

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Many of Brunel's projects were over-budget and delivered late. I think you could say we have retained (even improved upon) that skill in the 21st century.

M

--
Dr Michael F Platten

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Following the theme of Victorian brialliance, I visited a few weeks ago the "Falkirk Wheel" (http://www.thefalkirkwheel.co.uk/index.asp?cat=HISTORY%20::%20DESIGN). It is, I would say, following the great traditions of 'large scale engineering, simple design and it works.'

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

(OP)
Sed2

I have also visited the Falkirk Wheel and I think its a good example of unique engineering to suit a specific purpose.  And it will probably be talked about for many years to come.  I though the boat ride was a bit of a waste of time though.

But I dont know the name of the person in charge of the engineering.  But that could just be my ignorance. smile

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

I was trying to sift through the blurb I had to find out who actually put their name to it but it appears no one person can claim overall credit, other than Archimedes. I like the part where it says " a design life of at least 120 years...". Not many structures/designs can say that these days

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Coffee mug holder?  That's what my two legs are for.
:-\

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

THEReifleman,

Isn't that why Macdonalds warn people that the contents of their coffee cup may be hot?

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

RB1957,
 
The Victorian sewers were exceptionally well engineered by Bazalgette who was also responsible for the thames Embankment.
Not just an engineering excercise but a boundary pushing project where particulalr attention was paid to the cement used ... portland ... and the daily testing of the cement.

But if you want "deisgned for durability" in York there are still Roman sewers in perfectly ggod working order....1700 years or more old.

The pyramids are still there and bits of the Acropolis (we can hardly blame the designers for not anticipating that the Turks would use it to store gunpowder which then blew up).
However, what is most remarkable about Victorian engineering is the love of adornment .... fomr function and esthetics. Aesthetics is given far less priority today because it costs money..... it always did but ostentation was part of the game then, not now.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

The biggest difference is that IKB could actually manage the design and analysis of a design by himself.  Most newer systems are too complex for one person to manage, so the credit gets diluted.  

One could certainly argue that the latest Norwegian Cruise ship or the latest ViiV processor from Intel is a masterpiece, of sorts, but there are literally hundreds of engineers involved in these designs.  In the case of Intel, whoever designed their various math processor architectures were probably extraordinarily good engineers, their contribution is buried as a subtext to the overall processor.

As a more concrete, albeit obscure, example, consider the Wallis tree encoder that was the mainstay of computer multiplication processing for nearly 4 decades.  Clearly, a classic, clearly elegant, but, since it was rarely designed as a standalone product, almost no one has ever heard of it.

TTFN



RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Hadrian's wall still stands in norther England. It is known as Hadrian's wall. The engineer, designer, architect, whoever, is lost to most people today.

It happened before, during and since the Victorian age - lots of engineers are not recognised for their brilliance and contribution because the owner/boss took the credit.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Hadrian built the second and most eduring of the Roman defenses; further north is the line of the shorter Antonine wall (between Edinburgh and Glasgow) which was more simply constructed of forts and a connecting earthwork embankment.
(http://www.roman-britain.org/frontiers/antonine.htm)
The Romans were very excellent engineers and many of the leading engineers are indetified from the recorded history.
So Haadrian had the wall constructed but yes, his engineers were in fatc responsible for the design and construction... of course we could ask which engineer is the most important, the one who was responsible for the wall's construction of the engineers who laid down the guidelines for the construction... hadrians wall was an application of existing engineering skills.

I would aks if it is absolutely true that IKB really did everything himself?
In fact, with the Great eastern what he did was create the concept and promote it but he then was very careful to shoose a marine architect to draft it out and build it.
So in his day it was already a multi-disciplinary engineering environment.

By the way, Citroen were also a very oinnovative company in the pre-war years.... I don't remember which car company it was that announced it had "invented" headlights that folloewed the steering only to be told to go look at the DS 21'S.

I think the interesting question would be if Brunel were born into todays engineering environment, and had all the advantages of modern engineering education, computers and software, would he still emerge as one of the most brilliant engineers of the day? Be noice to think so or even that any engineers  could reach such heights.

As for being overtime and over budget, i think we will find that with some of the msot worthwhile projects, not all of which could be ever said to be commercially viable but are socially desirable... for example, the underground railways, the Channel Tunnel and so on...

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

Seems like the great ship that the guy built was pretty much a dud as I recall- ended it's days laying cable because it was too unstable for passenger use.

Perhaps the question should be turned around, to ask, why didn't they put more time and effort into optimizing designs back then?  Sure, some things were overbuilt and still are with us.  But how about the failures?  We have the capability of building every structure ten times stronger than it needs to be now as well, just we choose not to do things that way.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

As in the bridge over the silvery Tay...

Immortalised in very bad poetry...

Interesting that some of the girders of the original failed Tay bridge were reused in the replacement bridge and presumably are still there to this day.

RE: Victorian Engineering Brilliance - Do We Still Have It Today?

JMW is right about IKB. A great engineer indeed, but he did not do it all himself.

In fact, since he was the client's engineer, he left behind a long string of engineering contractors who took on his projects and lost heavily.

This applied to the Great Eastern. John Scott Russell was the man who took the contractual responsibility to execute the detailed design and construction of Brunel's concept. He went bankrupt in part due to Brunel's interference in a scope for which he had handed over commercial responsibility (same happens today in many cases).

The Great Eastern might have been a dud as a passenger ship, but had no stability issues I am aware of and was a success as a pioneering Atlantic cable layer.

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