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how the present a "liner"
2

how the present a "liner"

how the present a "liner"

(OP)
hi,

today, I prepared an assembly drawing in which basicly two pieces will be assembled together, the problem is, there should be a liner material in between. The thickness of the liner will be at most 0.1mm. So, what I did is, in  bill of material on the drawing I gave the three components, i.e the two pieces that will be assembled and the liner material. But on the drawing I only put ballons to the two pieces, and in the notes I wrote, "before assembling part 2 to part 1, the liner will be applied to the part 1 according to the document xyz. " and I did NOT put a ballon to the liner. And this caused a little (!) argument with my project manager.

So is there a problem in what I did?

because of the argument, I was asked to prepare a formal report on this problem. So I need to refer a standart while explaning this. Could you please help me?

thanks in advance...

RE: how the present a "liner"

(OP)
THE TITLE SHOULD BE
HOW TO PRESENT A "LINER"

SORRY...

RE: how the present a "liner"

I don't see a big problem with what you did....

if document xyz clearly identifies things like:

What side of part 1 does the liner go on?

Does the liner go on the entire surface of part 1?  If not, then where?

Does a specific side of the liner have to be against part 1?

How does the assembler determine what thickness of liner to apply?

Is there any surface prepartion of part 1 or part 2 before the liner goes one?

Are then any time, temperature or other process constraints?

After the assembly is complete, how can you tell if the liner is there?

Of course all of these questions apply regardless of the existence or non-existence of a ballon on the drawing.



RE: how the present a "liner"

All parts and materials should be listed on a BOM and balloons called out. Materials such as your Liner would be listed including any epoxies, solders, etc. The quantities for these materials can be drawn to show size, listed in weight or AR (as required). These are just some examples.
Ever do any military dwgs? All materials are listed.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: how the present a "liner"

The guy who buys the liners doesn't read the drawing notes, and doesn't dig out referenced drawings.  Nor should he be expected to do so.

So when your assembly reaches the production stage, there won't be any liners available to assemble.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: how the present a "liner"

(OP)
thanks for your replies...

well, document xyz  clearly identifies the details.

I agree that all the materials should be listed on a BOM  , but does it really necessary to put a balloon for every part/material listed on a BOM??

thanks.

RE: how the present a "liner"

Yes. Have ever assembled something that listed the part but didn't show you where it goes?

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: how the present a "liner"

(OP)
thanks chris,

is there a reference document on this?

here another example, say we are going apply an adhesive before fastening it, in BOM we listed all three parts, i.e the part 1 (the body) part 2 (the bolt) and part 3 (adhesive, loctite 410 etc) and in the notes we said
"Before fastening the bolt apply 1 gram of loctite 410 to the threads, then fasten the bolt using ....., the applied torque should be 5 Nm, wait 6 hours before any futher operation"
should I put a "balloon 3" with the arrow pointing the threads on the drawing?

RE: how the present a "liner"

Information like that can get lost in an assembly drawing.  Your BoM and associated asembly drawing just defines the components and their spatial relation to each other. If something like torque and Loctite application is critical, you may want to create a new document.  They have various names- Process Sheets, Assembly Procedures, etc.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: how the present a "liner"

Mike correctly points out that the purchasing department doesn't read the drawings, they just buy what is listed on the BOM.  You've got your liner listed, so no problem there.

For things like Loctite I've seen either an item number call-out along with the hardware, or a note with the hardware call-out, or both.  The note either needs to spell out the correct process for application, or refer to a document that does.  Since you must have the process info, the item call-out seems redundnt, although I would include it.

One other thing to consider is, do the assemblers work to the drawings, or do they work to a work instruction?

RE: how the present a "liner"

There probably isn't a standard which states that, in your situation, what you did was right. Which also means that their isn't one which says that you were wrong. smile

However, there is the "unwritten" standard that any drawing must contain sufficient "idiot-proof" information to clearly and unambiguously convey its intended message.

I am guessing that the liner was omitted in one or more assemblies & that you are being blamed for underestimating the quality of "idiots" the company employs to assemble its product. Just when you think you have an idiot-proof solution, better idiots appear.

In future drawings, I suggest creating cut-aways so that the liner is clearly visible, even shaded if necessary. If ballooning, either show [u]everything[/i] ballooned or nothing ballooned. No halfway measures. And don't forget you can use Stacked Balloons. (if your CAD program allows).

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: how the present a "liner"

Remember, just call out the parts, where they go, and quantity. Don't call out on a dwg any processes (how it's done). Processes are called out on a separate document. Process specs can be called out on the dwg.
i.e., for epoxies, "Apply epoxy (item 2) between items 1 & 3 as shown". Qty in BOM will be "AR" (as req'd).

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: how the present a "liner"

I have always approached it as Chris posts.  In a cad drawing, to keep the BOM associative, we have files for bulk materials and the like that consist only of a point and any pertinent attributes (which will populate the BOM).  We place the point component in the area the item is applied, and balloon that point.  There is usually a flag note attached to describe the application.  This way, it's pretty much automatic and idiot proof.

RE: how the present a "liner"

(OP)

I'm vere grateful to all your interest and replies on this subject. I think I got the point. :)



 

RE: how the present a "liner"

What is interesting is that most of you are assuming the drawing or CAD model drives purchasing.  I have never worked anywhere where CAD or engineering drawings directly drove purchasing.

In my last 5 jobs, purchasing was driven by an MRP system like MAPICS or BPICS.  CAD systems can populate or even drive the BOM's in the MRP systems, but MRP drives purchasing, not CAD.  PArt of the release process is (usually) for the engineer to cross-check MRP versus drawings.

As for your argument with your boss, you may be right, but you probably won't win.  It doesn't sound like it's a technical matter anymore.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: how the present a "liner"

Tick, most purchasing depts DO think CAD drives purchasing. CAD model don't drive purchasing, but what's on the drawings does, to a degree.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: how the present a "liner"

Yes, and the MRP Planner who transcribes the BOM from the drawing isn't expected to read the notes.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: how the present a "liner"

IMO, everyone that touches drawings and works with them in one way or another, should have at least the basic understanding of how to read them...and take the time to read them.
Drawings are suppose to be for communicating to people on how to create a part or assembly, inspect it, planning, communicate and save history of changes. In addition to a drawing, BOM's are for ordering parts, cross ref parts to location on an assy dwg, inspection, planners, stock room and saving history of changes.
Sorry for rambling.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: how the present a "liner"

Agreed ... and in olden days, my company held blueprint reading classes for buyers, planners, and anyone else who showed the slightest interest.  

After they downsized ... well, I don't know; I don't work there anymore.  I hear they're pretty lean now.  At least the survivors say they're lean, and efficient, and just about perfect, except for that market share thing...



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: how the present a "liner"

I tried holding a drawing reading (no more blueprints) class a few years ago at my last job. Two of the employees were inspectors. One asked "Why do some dim's have .xxx-.xxx and some have .xxx?" The other asked "What do all those symbols mean?" Thye told others how difficult the class was, we never had another class!
It should be mandatory to know this stuff when hired!
Sorry, didn't mean to get off subject. Just trying to show how important everything on a dwg is.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: how the present a "liner"

If you have the part (liner, tape, silicone, etc...) modeled, it should have a part bubble. If you don't how does anyone know what it is? In the case of Loctite, I agree with CBL "If ballooning, either show [u]everything[/i] ballooned or nothing ballooned. No halfway measures. And don't forget you can use Stacked Balloons. (if your CAD program allows)". You can always balloon the fastener and then attach a second balloon (no leader)to the first that labels the loctite.

RE: how the present a "liner"

Quote:

Yes, and the MRP Planner who transcribes the BOM from the drawing isn't expected to read the notes.

But the person who assembles the assembly and the inspector who inspects it before shipping is expected to, and they are who the assy dwg is for. I don't agree that "If ballooning, either show everything ballooned or nothing ballooned. No halfway measures." But all items in the BOM MUST BE called out in a balloon on the face of the drawing or in a note, identified by item. Simply calling out "Loctite 410" in a note isn't sufficient. "Loctite 410, Item 25, ..." is admissable. Of course, this would ne a "flag" note and be on the dwg next to the callout of the fastener. in this case no balloon would be neccessary in the callout, but it wouldn't hurt either.

If I can't hi-lite every BOM item on an assembly, it goes back to the one who generated it.

RE: how the present a "liner"

Wow! my first one!!!
bigglasses

RE: how the present a "liner"

Your boss is full of horsehockey!  It is fine to call out materials (especially bulk materials) in a note with NO BALLOON AT ALL.  For God's sake this business is hard enough without people (especially bosses) coming up with self-spun arbitary no-value-added drafting rules!

Ask your boss to show you a drafting manual or industry standard that says that all materials on an assy drawing must have balloons.  If he can't come up with something then tell him to pound sand.  If he says "just do it" without fair rationale then find a new job or new boss!


Tunalover

RE: how the present a "liner"

   I agree with Tunalover.  We are up against some limitations of CAD software for one thing.

   We insert empty SolidWorks part models in our assemblies to cause adhesives like Loctite to appear on our BOMs.  There is nothing to attach a balloon too.   SolidWorks re-orders and re-numbers its parts lists, so any item numbers we type out manually are likely to become wrong.   Anything I can attach a balloon to is reliable, of course.  

   I make sure my drawing notes conform to my BOM entries.  For example, when I write a note telling people to apply lubricating threadlocker, there is an entry on the BOM, called "THREADLOCKER LUBRICATING".

                             JHG

RE: how the present a "liner"

Can't you add a point to the items such as adhesives?  This gives you something to anchor the balloon, and keeps the BOM associative.

RE: how the present a "liner"

You could also attach the leader to the origin of the dummy part.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: how the present a "liner"

Why are you folks wasting your time on this issue?

Tunalover

RE: how the present a "liner"

Probably for the same reason you are. smile

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: how the present a "liner"

On the other hand I don't see offering a solution to someones problem/question as being a waste of time.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: how the present a "liner"

  I heartily agree with CBL.  It is not so much a matter of standards as it is of leveraging the software.  It takes VERY little effort to balloon items of this type.  That information is then automated for use by varying departments.  If you feel that your job isn't worth putting forth a little more effort (for a reasonable purpose), then more power to you.  I would rather use the software to its full advantage.  

  To answer the OP's question, it depends on which standard you read.  According to the Global DRAWING REQUIREMENTS MANUAL (for departments of defense and commerce)and the Genium MODERN DRAFTING PRACTICES AND STANDARDS MANUAL, the item no. column itself is optional.  Regarding bulk items, the Global manual states "Bulk items are those necessary constituents of an assembly... for which the quantity required is not readily predeterminable or if knowing the quantity, the physical nature of the material is such that it is not adaptable to depiction on a drawing; or which can be cut to finishd size by the use of such hand or bench tools as shears, pliers, knives, etc., without any further machining operations and the configuration is such that it can be fully described in writing without the necessity of pictoral presentation."  The Genium manual has a similar definition.
  If your liner can be classified as a bulk material, then I agree that a balloon is not necesary, as long as it's application is refered to elsewhere on the drawing, such as a flagged note.
  Ask (nicely) your boss what standard requires balloons.  If he doesn't know or can't tell you, or because he "says so", it may be time to start looking around.  When the boss starts making arbitrary rules without being able to back them up, it is time to open your eyes to other possibilities.

RE: how the present a "liner"

A star for ewh!
My daughter says "Everything should have a balloon".tongue

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks Pro 06/PDMWorks 06
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

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