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Water as a hot commodity in the future?
2

Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Water as a hot commodity in the future?

(OP)
I've been hearing talk of water scarcity problems developing in the future. Even to the point that water will one day become a very valuable commodity. The fuzz claims that within 10 years, water will be in the same position as oil is now.

Any thoughts on that? Any ideas how it will affect our profession in the coming years?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

We'll just have to drink beer instead! lol

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

I noticed a similar suggestion in a Nat'l Geographic article about Glen Canyon / Lake Powell this month.  What scenario is expected to result in the proposed scarcity?  Urban growth?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

In the western US, water has always been a big deal.  I'm teaching a class next month on dealing with Oil & Gas produced water and the research for it was really fasinating.  

A 200 MW power plant near my house evaporates 15,000 gallons per minute.  Today they're using high-quality river water.  Many large power plants are looking at using lower quality water (like from oil & gas wells) instead because the cost and availibility of clean water is becoming prohibitive.

There is a lot of marginal-to-poor water available in the environment that is "waste" because clean water has always been pleantiful.  In my research I found a lot of places where that paridgm is changing and people are trying to waste less and clean up marginal sources.

You won't see $70/bbl water any time soon, but $0.0025/gallon probably won't last much longer.

David

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

I have heard of massive de-salination plants for the desert nations (middle east?). That is probably more than $0.0025/gallon.

I don't think the US is there yet. Although the major river diversion projects (Colorado River?) in California comes close. Isn't that one of the reasons for the Hoover dam?

However, golf courses in both areas still water the grass. I guess the price of water has a ways to go yet.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Why don't we melt the icebergs on the north pole to address that problem??
blllttt

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

(OP)
I've heard of the mid-east de-sal plants but apparently they cost a fortune to setup, the water quality is not too great and the costs involved in the process are high.
I know that some filtration companies are having success in the water recycling market, Zenon is one example.

epoisses, that's a good idea except I'd rather not have bits of polar bear in my drinking water :)

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

ziggi, that is what I mean. The desal plants are really expensive, yet people still water the grass. Water isn't expensive enough yet over there, and definitely, not expensive over here.

Water as a hot commoditiy won't be a reality for a while yet.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?


Water allready is.  Check the cooler in your grocery store.  Lots of water in there, 10 years ago you had to find the water fountain in a grocery store to get a drink.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

(OP)
BJC,
good point, however that could also be due to the perception people have that bottled water is better than tap water.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

The only time we'll run out of water is when there are so many billions of people on the planet that it's all tied up in their bodies.  Otherwise it will always be around - where can it go?  

The question is potable water - that stuff is already quite valuable in certain parts of the world.  

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Quote (Jabberwocky):

Otherwise it will always be around - where can it go?

It goes into unusable sources; the oceans through increased impermeable area (storm sewers) piped into the rivers into oceans.  Water mining of aquifers (removing water more quickly then they can naturally recharge) is another draw-down of usable sources.  Mexico City is actually sinking because the level of the underlying aquifer has dropped so much.  Sure they could recharge naturally over hundreds/thousands of year, but I don't think the parabolic growth of our population will allow that.  Additionally, human impact has affected natures ability to naturally filter and clean surface waters through destruction of wetlands and and contamination of soils and aquifers.  

Water will indeed become very valuable and IMO belive more than one war will be fought over water.machinegun

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Ashereng-
Thumb through a few of these

I think Mexico City is pretty representative of our impact and usage.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

bioengr82,

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately, there are water shortages around the globe, and not every nation is as lucky as my nation.

That said, how much do you pay for water on your water bill?

For example, residential water prices:
western Canada is $0.003859/US gallon
western US     is $0.0025  /US gallon

Using crude oil at $60/bbl, that is about $1.43 a US gallon. Oil is currently 370 times more expensive than water.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

True enough Ashereng, however, most people don’t use 70 gallons of petrol a day like they do water.  

That aside, oil is a finite resource that will one day be depleted regardless of conservation efforts and an oil crisis is will occur at some point.  It is simply how long it is rationed.

As Jabberwocky pointed out, water isn't going anywhere in our closed system.  Poor management, localized over population, pollution, arrogance, and short-sidedness will be the sole cause of the blossoming water crisis.
 

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

70gal/day per person?  Is that an average?  We only use about 80gal/day total at my new house, and we have two adults, two dogs, and a steady stream of guests.  

$0.0025  /US gallon!?!? Water at my last house was about $90 for 3000-4000gal, or about $0.0225 to $0.03 per gal. / Chicago Suburbs.  That included "disposal" (sewer) charges of about $8/mo.  I currently pay about $0.013/gal for water, and use a septic system / central illinois.  It'd be great if water was 90% cheaper!

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

The average household uses about 60-90 gpd plus your water usage at work another 15 gpd plus everytime you go out to eat another 8 gallons plus the unknown gallons of water used to process, manufacture, and irrigate your food, clothes, gasoline, pop can, electricity, etc.  Your water usage footprint is much larger than just your domestic water bill.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

ivymike, my water rate is just the water rate. Disposal, construction surcharges, etc, is not included. I would think that those charges would vary by city/municipality/etc.

It seems that water is more expensive in Chicago.

However, I don't foresee water getting to $0.25 in the next 10 years. A 10 fold increase in water rates in 10 years would be a lot.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

The thing separating wastewater from useable water is energy.  So ultimately a water shortage is another manifestation of an energy shortage.  And wasting water is simply another waste of energy.

Some nations are rich in solar energy stored in the form of clean water.  Others are not so lucky.  So yes, there will be conflict over access to this resource in future.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

I heard this interview on the radio the other day:  

http://michiganradio.org/ram/20060411PEARCE.ram

"Many of us who are concerned about conserving water tend to focus on the water that’s going down the drain. We might install low flow toilets, front loading washers, and try to shorten our time in the shower, but as Fred Pearce demonstrates in his new book, “When The Rivers Run Dry,” we should be more worried about what we’re putting in our mouths. It’s food production around the world that’s leading us to an almost inevitable global water crisis. "  

He has an interesting viewpoint; I'm sure the beef industry won't like it.  Is water that goes into agriculture really so bad?  

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Beef is pretty bad, but rice and cotton are right up there as well.

(OK, we don't eat cotton)

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

In the UK the average water consumption is 154 litre per person per day (40 US Gallon)

For my water usage, if my water was metered, I would pay 0.8pence per litre (£8 per cubic metre) which if I have done my conversion correctly is $0.053/ US gallon.

It seems we pay more for our water in the UK, as we do for our petrol.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Yes. Petrol, water, beer, food, etc. are all more expensive in the UK than the US. That is why people in the UK vacation in the US seem to spend money more freely - their euros go farther.

I can see why water is more expensive in the UK - the US has more water available per capita.

I don't know why the oil and beer is more expensive though.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

I live in Scotland.  It rains a lot here so we have plenty of water.  I guess this is not so true of Southern England where they have more people and its a lot drier.

On the plus side, we dont have euros yet, still good old fashioned pounds sterling.

I also believe our 'water of life' is cheaper elsewhere in the world even though it's made here.  Water of life being Scotch Whisky.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

ussuri,

My bad. The UK is using pounds sterling, not euros.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Ashereng - I paid 9 dollars US for a pint of Guinness in Detroit - is that unreasonable? That is about twice what it costs in the UK or Australia. I really got the impression that beer was expensive in the USA.

Now, admittedly it was twice that, in Shanghai.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Quote:

I paid 9 dollars US for a pint of Guinness in Detroit - is that unreasonable? That is about twice what it costs in the UK or Australia. I really got the impression that beer was expensive in the USA.

Holy.. I hope it was a British Pint (closer to 20 oz) then! I can't speak for Detroit but most places in Florida aren't going to charge you more than 5 dollars for a (16oz) pint and places where it is actually sold frequently (Irish Pubs mostly) it's usually closer to 4.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

That's a bit steep.

Imports are usually about $7 a pint (16 oz). Domestic about $6 a pint. Taxes included.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

That does sound steep.  I was paying $5/pint in Detroit 5 years ago.  What kind of establishment do you frequent?

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

There are new de-salination plants being built in Florida- potable water is becoming scarce there.

More new power plants are considering the use of air cooled condensers in lieu of water cooled condensers with their associated cooling towers - this saves an enormous evaporation loss of water, but hurts heat rate slightly. Noise levels are high as well.

Some large water users are being retired , to allow alternate use of their water . For example , the Mohave power plant in Nevada had used a coal-water slurry pipeline to ship the coal from mine-mouth to plant- its retirement will free up the water used in the slury plus the evap loss at the condenser .

In the long term, there is going to be a lot of teeth- gnashing related to the pollution of deep ground waters by the ongoing practice of injected toxic wastes in deep wells.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Somewhere near Dearborn, on a big northwards going arterial, up high on the western side. Actually it was prbably $6-7 US, I think I may have remembered the price in oz dollars.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

That sounds more reasonable - still pricey, but not as outrageous.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

(OP)
What's outrageous is that you'd actually buy a Guiness in the US. They're bloody horrible anywhere but Ireland.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Be that as it may, Guiness still beats the pants off of many other nameless choices we have here in the states.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

(OP)
Wow American beer must be worse than I thought. Thankfully Canadian beer is much better.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

The mass market beers are ..., well lets just say that Bud is the only one that publicly shows their horses but purports them to have a use in transporting the stuff rather than in its manufacture.

Microbrew beer on the other hand is a worthy drink.  The Portland, Oregon, area has more beer choice per capita than anywhere else in the world.  One could go out for a different draft beer, brewed within 200 miles, each night around here and probably go on for over a year without having to repeat anything.  You'd periodically have to go back to certain places to get all of their seasonal brews.  You couldn't do it at home with bottles though, many of the brew pubs don't bottle anything, it is only available on draft.  Cheers.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Quote (davidbeach):

The mass market beers are ..., well lets just say that Bud is the only one that publicly shows their horses but purports them to have a use in transporting the stuff rather than in its manufacture.

Are you trying to say there are beer companies that show horses and purport to use them in manufacturing?

*cough*beersnob*cough* cheers

LONG LIVE THE KING OF BEERS! king

(my view is in no way effected by my previous employment with AB)

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

AB employees get in trouble if they are caught in public drinking a brew from any other producer.  They even have to ensure that the label is facing so that the most people can read it!  (Ex worked for AB also)

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?


Although potable water scarcity isn't seen as an immediate casus belli of world magnitude, water suitability for human ingestion may be a present-day predicament in need of imaginative problem-solving by professionals in multiple disciplines.

It certainly is a combination of the chemistry of the solutes and their concentration that determines whether the water is polluted or not.

Even pristine rainwater may contain dissolved gases (on a weight basis): 10 ppm nitrogen, 50 ppm oxygen, 3,400 ppm carbon dioxide picked up from the atmosphere, to name just a few.  

On the other hand, chemicals are supplemented on purpose, for example, sodium benzoate is often added as a preservative to canned fruit drinks in the amount of 1000 ppm.

The concentration (ppm) of minerals on samples taken from several French Alps natural spring water sources showed: Ca→78, Mg→24, Na→5, K→1.

The (US) Water Act of 1974 established the permissible maximum levels of mineral contaminants in community water systems for safe drinking. Among them, (ppm=mg/L):

As→0.05, Ba→1.0, Cd→0.01, Cr→0.05, Pb→0.05, Hg→0.002, Se→0.01, Ag→0.05, Na→160.

Do you know whether these limits have suffered any changes of late ?

I still remember Perrier's withdrawal of ~70 million bottles from store shelves and restaurants in 1990 because it was found they contained 15 ppb benzene, triple FDA's permitted maximum of 5 ppb. Any comment ?

 
 

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Guiness in the US:

First and last time I tried that was in a bar in Chicago's north side, watching a five nations game (only five in those days).  Dreadfull.  Mind you it was about 8 in the morning!

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Quote (bioengr82):

Are you trying to say there are beer companies that show horses and purport to use them in manufacturing?

No, I was suggesting that hidden horses are used as the source of the product....  But only the big mass market stuff; micro brews on the other hand are actually beer.

The rebellious youngsters around here rebel by drinking PBR.  With all the local brews available, Portland is also PBR's best market.
cheers

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

(OP)
PBR?
Those Portland kids must be good kids, all the little b___rds around here smoke dope and drink hard liquor...with the occasional cheap brewsky when mommy and daddy's cash runs out.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

I was recently involved in the design of a wastewater reclamation facility. A large bio-pharma company was having trouble getting all the mains water it needed from the municipal supply, and so was looking for PR kudos for reusing the outfall from a sewage plant in its cooling systems. There is a fair bit of this done in the more arid regions of the world, and as water costs increase in the northern hemisphere look for more of this to be done.
Check out NEWater in singapore....

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Several years ago, I saw a program on water reclamation in the States.

The regulations were written in such a way that it said the water shall be cleaned by x%.  So, even though the water the plant was discharging was cleaner than what they were taking in, they actually had to mix the discharge with 'dirty' water to meet regulations.....

or something to that effect.

______________________________________________________________________________
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.

RE: Water as a hot commodity in the future?

Water as such - it's difficult to predict. Yes, people still water their gardens and lawns in most of western civilisation areas. Let's not generalise, though.

DRINKING water, however, is a problem even now in every major city. By what I see when I travel, I mean. I think a lot of dough will be in that industry VERY soon.

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