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Standard of Care
6

Standard of Care

Standard of Care

(OP)
Here's a topic that almost no one comes up with the same definition or "standard" for... Standard of Care.  Anyone have experience with trying to define this, or seeing it defined in a way that makes sense?

RE: Standard of Care

According to ASFE the definition is:

-The standard of care is the ordinary skill and competence exercised by members of a profession is good standing in the community at the time of the event creating the cause of action.

The standard of care is quite difficult to define for a specific situation because you have to know how "everybody else" in the specific community did the work at the time it was done.

RE: Standard of Care

I've never heard of a "standard of care" concerning engineering. Standard of Care - "medically speaking" refers to standard of care that a trauma/medical emergency patient should receive from a rescuer until more advanced EMS arrives (ambulance).  Once on the ambulance, a new “standard of care” is in order based on training and protocol until the patient arrives at the hospital.  Once at the hospital, a new standard of care is in affect.  Not meeting the “standard of care” for a particular protocol can result in serious lawsuits.  My knowledge is based on my experience as a whitewater rafting guide and ski patroller carrying First Responder and Outdoor Emergency Care certifications.

RE: Standard of Care

"Standard of Care" is a legal term.

In the law of negligence, the degree of care which a reasonable, prudent or careful person should exercise under the same or similar circumstances. If the standard falls below that established by law for the protection of others against unreasonable risk of harm, the person may be liable for damages resulting from such conduct.

Ref: http://www.edgarsnyder.com/resources/terms/s.html

RE: Standard of Care

I guess weakness of that definition would be, what is the standard, established by law, for the protection of others against unreasonable risk of harm? And what is reasonable harm?

Is there a "Standard of Care" in any of the Engineering legislation in any of the states/provinces/jurisdictions that people have seen? Are those definitions written anywhere?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

Ashereng:

As far as I know there is not a "Standard of Care" in any legislation.  In a legal situation, you have to prove that the Standard of Care was or was not met.  It's hard to do when you don't know what it is.

RE: Standard of Care

That is what I mean.

I did a search in my association's web site, and got zero hits for "Standard of Care".

I guess that is why TreesMan posted this.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

In addition to the definition in the above article, a recent seminar I attended further defined the "Standard of Care" to restrict it to the specific geographic region.  That is, what a reasonable and prudent professional in the same region would do under the same circumstances.  Does that mean there could be a different standard of care in Texas vs. that in Wisconsin?  NY vs. CA?

RE: Standard of Care

Do you mean 'Duty of Care'?  This is pretty common term  in my part of the world.

RE: Standard of Care

rholder98:

My interpretation is that the Standard of Care is not only restricted to a specific state, but even goes to the point of being a specific region of a state or even a specific city.

Since I am most familiar with geotechnical engineering and the state of Michigan, I will use that as an example.  I have worked throughout the state.  What is normal practice in Detroit is far different from normal practice in Grand Rapids.  It may be more pronounced for geotechnical engineering since soil conditions can vary significantly from region to region, but I think the same idea could apply to other areas of engineering.

Pavement engineering, for instance, can vary considerably from one state to the next.  What is standard practice in Michigan is not at all used in Indiana.

RE: Standard of Care

dbuzz,

I think of it this way.

If an engineer owes a "duty of care", that duty needs to be discharged by providing, as a minimum, care that meets a "standard of care", as defined by ... and herein lies the problem. What is the "standard of care" and how is it defined/proven.

JAE's link is Part I, what is the definition/concept of standard of care. I would love to see Part II, "... how proof of compliance with the standard of care is presented at trial."

eric, rholder:

It is interesting that the "standard of care" is defined to vary geographically, from California to Texas to Maine. Does this imply that some "people" are worth more than others?

Standard practice has to vary. Standard practice is not the same as "standard of care". For example, -55°C is not a problem in LA, it is in Anchorage. Hence, standard of practice is different.

Doing the job right, this is "standard of care". And I would think that you need to do the job right as much in Anchorage as in LA?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

Folks...we are trying to compare apples and oranges.

"Standard of Care" traditionally refers to the care a person or group of people should recieve during a medical emergency or trauma situation.  Whyun is right...it is simply a legal term.  

There can be no standard of "care" within engineering simply beause there is no hierarchy of "care" to be given or governing authority for the way engineering is performed.  There are mutliple paths to an AHJ or regulating authority, however these paths are not governed, nor parrellel.  Each path is based on a contract between companies.  Of course...engineering standards are developed and implented into design, management, construction, etc...then often times audited accordingly,  but "Care" doesn't fit into the engineering puzzle.  

  

RE: Standard of Care

Standard of care will be established by testimonies of expert witnesses who will "represent" the "reasonable professional".  Of course, the bar that is established by the expert witness can be raised or lowered by the jury in the final verdict.

Legally, engineers have "duty of care" for the public or their client and must exercise "standard of care" when performing their work.  When standard of care has not been met, it constitutes negligence and he is liable to whomever receiving harm from that negligence.

RE: Standard of Care

(OP)
Thank you all for your great inputs!!  Just as I suspected, it's incredibly difficult to define the standard of care... it varies from state to state and within states.  I asked another engineer the same question once and he said... standard of care is what a judge or jury wants it to be on any given day.  So... it varies from day to day as well.  A major problem I see is that... it appear states and jurisdictions can not quantify the term... which for engineers that rely on "measurability"... it goes against our nature and logic.  There will always be someone with higher standards and someone with lower standards.  Thus, to establish a standard of care acceptable to the lay person is very difficult.  The fallout is.. we either "over-engineer" or "under-engineer" our structures... never to make more than one person happy at a time.

Thanx again for your comments, and please keep them coming.

RE: Standard of Care

Write YOUR "Standard of Care" into a company policy, and follow it.  You can then get yourself ISO9001 certified.  You can write that policy into your terms and conditions.

TTFN



RE: Standard of Care

the standard of care that an engineer must meet will be determined by what other reasonalbly prudent engineers with the same amount of education, training, and experience, in that particular field (and yes, possibly that geographic region), acting reasonably would have done in a similar situation...

basically, if another "reasonable engineer" would not have made the same mistake in the situation you may be liable for negligence.

For negligence you need:
1.  To establish you owed a duty of care
(easy to make out that an engineer owes a duty to protect the public)
2.  To establish that the engineer is in dereliction of the duty
3.  To establish that damages (not necessarily physical or pecuniary) have resulted.

beyond this there is causation and other legal issues to be proven - all elements to be proven on a balance of probabilities.

RE: Standard of Care

Nope. If a company employs an inexperienced engineer then it is not judged by what an equivalently inexperienced engineer would have done, but what an APPROPRIATELY experienced engineer would have done. If the inexperienced engineer is out of his depth then he should call for help. That is what an ethical professional does.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Standard of Care

There is a minimum standard that is applicable Greg.  It's the P.Eng standard in Canada or PE in the states.

What I meant was if you are a P.Eng with 20 years of design experience, and a Ph.D in the specific subject you may be held to a higher standard than a brand new P.Eng, even it he is acting within his field or discipline.

What you said is correct though.  It's analogous to a Family Physician knowing when he is out of his depth and must refer.  

A family physician diagnosing a rare disease will not be held to the same standard as an infectious disease specialist.  That is the point I was trying to make.

RE: Standard of Care

I was shocked to see someone state that he had never heard of a standard of care for engineers!  Better learn it before the opposing attorney beats you to death with it.

Here's my working definition of our standard of care:

"that level of service ordinarily provided by other competent members of our profession, providing similar services in the same locale and under the same or
similar circumstances"

If you would like a bit more info on this subject, go to www.pdhonline.org and read the course booklet for "Every Word Counts! Contract Mechanisms and Their Review". You can download the booklet (a pdf file) free.

RE: Standard of Care

Ron,

Nice link. Thanks.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

"Recommended Guidelines for the Practice of Structural Engineering in California" by SEAOC

"National Practice Guidelines for the Structural Engineer of Record" by CASE

Though these are not standard of care, comprehensive list of engineer's roles and responsibilities are in these documents.  Note that these are only guidelines and not regulations.

RE: Standard of Care

Treesman, back to  your question: “ Anyone have experience with trying to define this, or seeing it defined in a way that makes sense?”

From the post above it seems we cannot find a way to define the term objectively (or in a way that makes sense).  So if you can’t define it...........does it really *mean* anything?  Can it really exist?

Quoting Ron’s defintion: “"that level of service ordinarily provided by other competent members of our profession, providing similar services in the same locale and under the same or
similar circumstances"

It seems Ron’s definition could just as well read: “Doing it the same way everyone else does around here”.  Where is the concrete definition of actually “how to do it”?  If someone can point to the concrete definition of “how to do it”.....then you have a standard of care.  I’m not trying to attack Ron’s definition.....I’m just trying to make a point.  

I’ve noticed on my state’s A/E Examiners page under “Our Mission”:  states “...establish a standard of care...”  Seems to me the board has their work cut out for them.  Just another way for government to argue and waste money over literally ”nothing”.  

RE: Standard of Care

Standard of Care - Duty of Care, both seems to be whatever the judge/jury decides after you are in legal proceedings.

Hence, the current situation with product liability in the US, where I have to remove a warning sticker on the over door of my new stove/range that states "Warning: Sitting or standing on the oven door may cause the range to tip over."

Duh.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

(OP)
I agree with you Senseless.... the term carries so much ambiguity with it... does it really exist at all?  Courts would have you believe so.  Having given a lot of thought to the topic... I believe it is up to the states to define a "standard of care" that can be applied to the profession... but at different levels.  And have engineers licensed at those levels to subject them to certain standards of care.  Thus, when a client retains an engineer, with a certain level of experience licensed by the state, then he or she knows what they're buying... to some degree.  This points to the majority of problems anyway... i.e. owners and clients retaining engineering services... expecting a certain level of compentency, which often includes "perfection" from the consultant just because the consultant's name is followed by "P.E.", and then when things go bad... the client gets pissed off because God didn't design the project.  So why do we persist being in such a profession?  Ahhh... another topic for another thread.

And for Ron... were you referring to me when you said you couldn't believe a person hadn't heard of standard of care?  If so... please reread my thread... contains no such verbage. Rather... I understand the ambiguity of the term and was searching for input from others... which I have received.  Thanx to all!!

RE: Standard of Care

I'm a Mech Eng who has made the jump to lawschool.  

What is interesting (and what I initially had a hard time with) is that in law, being held to the standard of another "reasonable engineer" is considered an "objective" test.  (Whereas, to my engineering-trained mind, and to most of yours by the looks of it, this is about as subjective as it gets.)

If it's outside the experience of the layman, whatever your experts testify to, and the judge or jury accepts will become your "standard of care".

TreesMan, as I alluded to earlier, in engineering we really have one level of competency and a grey-area for better qualified individuals.  Whereas in medicine, for example, they have discrete levels of specialty.  Are you suggesting we should have certain "specialist" designations above-and-beyond the professional engineering designation?  Interesting thought...

RE: Standard of Care

UWH,

Yup, like I said, the standard/duty of care is what the judge/jury decides. And, it will vary "objectively" each case.

Different level of engineering designation?

More dues to the associations?

Any employer out there willing to pay more salary to the engineers who get the higher designations?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

Treesman....I wasn't referring to you or anyone specifically, just that there were several posts indicating that they didn't know a Standard of Care existed or didn't believe that one existed or could exist for that matter.

A STANDARD OF CARE DOES EXIST FOR ENGINEERS!!!!It's used daily and the courts know about it.  It is not what the courts, judges, or lawyers decide it should be....it is the summary of performance practices used by your own profession on a daily basis....in short, we define our own standard of care by the similarity of competent practices among and between us and our colleagues.

The "working definition" I gave before is a generic form of the standard of care of engineers, defensible in court, and commonly accepted as a contract term.

Please understand...if you don't know what your standard of care is, you might be routinely violating it which puts you and your firm at risk.  There have been numerous lawsuits where it was determined that the engineer did not meet the standard of care, which leads to the next allegation...negligence.  If it can be proven that you violated the established standard of care, then they have essentially proven negligent practice, which will then get you lots of lost money and licensing problems

Senselessticker....you are somewhat right in your simplification of the definition...[It seems Ron’s definition could just as well read: “Doing it the same way everyone else does around here”.]...except that the standard of care has little to do with "How" you do something, just that you are using the same ordinary care that other competent engineers practicing under the same or similar conditions would use in your area.  While it seems subtle, it is VERY important in the engineering community to meet the standard of care and be very careful not to either exceed it or to undershoot it.

If you've ever taken a professional liability course or seminar, you've probably been cautioned not to hold yourself or your firm out as "the best".  The reason for this is that when you decide you are "the best", you're holding yourself to a higher standard of care than exists for your competitors, and one that is likely not definable or defensible.  If for any reason you fail to exceed the performance of one of those lowly competitors and harm (economic loss, usually) is done to your client or the public, prepare for the lynching.

 

RE: Standard of Care

Quote (Ron):

While it seems subtle, it is VERY important in the engineering community to meet the standard of care and be very careful not to either exceed it or to undershoot it.

So, how do I get my "above average" performance review if the courts want me to neither exceed or undershoot the standard of care (standard of work)?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

Ashereng....performance usually has to do with client satisfaction or satisfaction of your supervisor....not the standard of care.  You can still achieve the standard of care but provide poor performance for your client....such as a great engineering job, but 6 months late in getting it there!

In that case, you would have little liability but you probably wouldn't get a very nice performance review!

RE: Standard of Care

Ron,

I find a lot of times that performance has nothing to do with client satisfaction or satisfaction of your supervisor.

I have done an outstanding job for my client once, he was happy, on budget and on schedule. My supervisor hated the work I did.

I have also done an outstanding job for my company. My supervisor loved the work I did. The client took his business to our direct competitor.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Standard of Care

Ashereng...that's true.  I've seen those conditions as well.  Unfortunate but true.

As for the standard of care though, that is a contractual liability issue and has to do with confining oneself the accepted practices of the profession, given the constraints of locality and similarity of practice/service conditions.  Does that inhibit innovation?  Sometimes.  But knowing when to take on the liability of innovation and when to follow the accepted practices of the profession is a judgment call and you have to be willing to take the consequences if you're wrong.

Further, I see that your practice is in the Petroleum area.  Though I'm not that familiar with your practice, I believe it would be correct to state that your services are probably not offered to the general public and that the general public has no direct access, use, or benefit from your direct services (though it is likely that the public benefits indirectly from your direct services).  I don't know if your are licensed or if your services require licensing, though I know that there is licensing for Petroleum Engineers in some states; however, in areas where one is licensed to practice engineering services that are offered to the general public (whether commercial services or otherwise), the issues of liability, standard of care, and protection of the health, safety, and welfare of the public are paramount.

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