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College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?
10

College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

(OP)
We are re-evaluating which package to teach and use with undergraduate mechanical engineering students.  We currenly have ProE/M though we are not heavily vested in it.  I know historically SW has been faster to learn and use, compared to ProE.  But ProE has improved in recent years and I don't know where they stand today.  It would be great to know some rough estimates (e.g., %s, weeks, hours, mouse clicks) of the current differences.

Speed of learning and using is one of our considerations.  I'd value your perspectives on these other factors:
1. Acceptance in industry:  ProE is probably a little better because a ProE user can more easily learn SW than v.v.
2. Integration with a good FEA program:  ProMechanica is probably enough for most undergrads although non-linear capabilities would be desirable.  We're considering Ansys, Abaqus, Marc, __Nastran... to augment ProM.  NEiWorks/Nastran looks like a logical and good choice for SW, since Cosmosworks is probably not enough.  
3. Integration with a good CFD program: still working on this one.
4. Integration with a good CAM program:  ProE has ProNC modules in the education edition, although I haven't heard much about them in industry. We have and would like to keep using SurfCam, so SW is better here.  
5. Academic pricing: getting these quotes now.  

Thanks,
David Malicky
University of San Diego
www.sandiego.edu/engineering

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Kids today are extruding solid models from the get-go, and I, personally, found that 'concept' harder to grasp after working for a few years with AutoCAD, and other 2-D programs.  But if you want 'ease of use,' I'd go with SolidWorks, and SW integration with analysis software (COSMOS) - I found much easier to grasp that.

That said - I believe it's an 'apples to oranges' comparison, b/c of my inexperience to solid modeling.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I have not used Pro-E since 1998, we changed over to SolidWorks and never looked back, because of the cost of Pro-E at the time. I understand the add-in can be costly. Our newly hired Engineers are learning SolidWorks in less than a week at the same time working on and completing projects. SolidWorks is so easy to learn and support. I have friends who use Pro-E and they complain all the time, were as I never hear complaints from SolidWorks users.

Bradley

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Are we talking the original full-blown Pro/E, or the Wildfire version?

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

There was only one actual CAD class taught at my school (graduated in '04).  They used Pro/E 2001i, although were in the process of upgrading to Wildfire (which caused more problems then it solved).  Since landing a job I have only used Solidworks, and got up-to-speed in a few weeks.  SWx is definitely nicer to you, although that may not be the best when you're just learning the basics (unconstrained lines in sketches, etc.)

CosmosWorks is just fine, although you have to actually get Designer, Xpress is a bit of a joke.  

Can't vouch for the CFD or CAM.

That being said, here is the set of my class's projects:
http://www2.mmae.ucf.edu/~eml5025/fa03/


RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I am a recent grad ('04).  In school they gave us a crash course in Catia.  I got a copy of SW one I was done school and picked it up with no training in a couple weeks.  I am now considered a power user of SW.

My neighbours son (18) has been playing with AutoCAD for a few years.  Last weekend I showed him SW.  I gave him 3 simple parts to model and assemble.  He was able to do it (with a little help, but not a lot) in 30 minutes.

In my opinion, SW is REALLY easy to learn.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I would select SolidWorks anyday over any of the others for reasons too long to list.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I taught myself SolidWorks, to become a very proficient user.  In fact, I found it much more intuitive to learn than even AutoCAD (comparitively much more limited application, apples to oranges, too).

I know people who use ProE and who seem to wear the overcoming of the difficulties of that program as a sort of badge of honor.  That alone speaks for itself.

You'll probably want to post this question in the ProE forum if you haven't already, since ProE has morphed--for better or worse--into a quasi-mid-range new-interface sort of thing called WildFire.  My ProE clients won't make the switch and are sticking with their full-version five-year-old software and about to ditch it altogether for SolidWorks since SolidWorks is increasingly picking up industry recognition and user-base.

Also, make sure you fully understand what really comes with each package for the price.  SolidWorks Office will provide an integrated rendering package that is quite competent, as well as lots of other things that are often tacked on as modules in ProE--for an additional price, too.  So be careful what you're really comparing.

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
Reason trumps all.  And awe trumps reason.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

SolidWorks is the easy choice:

1) Uses Windows conventions (cntrl-Z for undo, drag and drop, etc.)
2) Coherent user interface.
3) More modules included or relatively inexpensive to add (sheetmetal, photoworks, animator).
4) Costs less.
5) Gaining in industry use.

I've been using Pro/E from release 13 to Wildfire 2 and SW from SW2000 to SW2006.  Except for some surfacing stuff I'd pick SW over Pro every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

-b

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Since this is a college setting, and you can't be everything to all people (SW is not used everywhere), SW is definitely the way to go.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Hey, EWH, So what surfacing stuff in Wildfire do you think is better than what SW has?  I have done lots of surface lofting in CatiaV5.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Sorry, no experience with Wildfire, mostly UG.  Class A surfacing and control of those sufaces is stronger in UG than SW.  Other than that and the integration with manufacturing operations, SW gives more bang for the buck.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Sorry, I meant to ask bvanhiel about the surfacing, since he mentioned it specifically.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I've used SWx since 98 and Pro/e since release 13.  I would have to recommend you survey local industry since that would serve your students better once they finish school.  I prefer SWx right up until I need to do a variable section sweep then I wish I was using Pro/E 2001.  SWx corp. has positioned the product to work with Gold Partners thus getting the benefits of industry leading 3rd party programs.  For analysis I would the Nastran flavor of your choice.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Catia is probably the way to go if the funding will support it.  I have used Catia, ProE, Solidworks, Rhino, AutoCad, and a variety of other basic drafting programs.  A friend of mine works at a company that just converted from Solidworks to SolidEdge (much to his chagrin).  Solidworks seemed to be too unstable in large assemblies in a network environment.  SolidEdge was more stable but not as intuitive and did not have all the same tools as Solidworks.  Rhino3D is a good basic program for solid modeling but the conversion of models to other software will not be as simple as in Solidworks or Catia.  If the students use Catia they would be able to use Solidworks will little or no additional training.  

I recieved my degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, the best school in the country for their undergraduate program in Aerospace Engineering.  While I was there they switched from Bentley Microstation to Catia 5 V5.  I did an internship at the Milwaukee School of Engineering.  There computer lab utilizes both ProE and Solidworks.  Checking with other schools might be a good way to start also.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Quote:

I recieved my degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University, the best school in the country for their undergraduate program in Aerospace Engineering.
Is your opinion or is it a published fact?

SolidWorks or Pro/E  hammer

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Here is my initial take on this.  Solidworks is the easiest to pick up, IMHO.  I've tried learning Pro/E Wildfire 2 on my own, and I find I have to force myself to work at it.  I picked up SW and was able to do things in a few hours on my own.  I've been studying Catia V5 and find it is similar to Solidworks, and a little easier than what I've done in Pro/E, but still Solidworks is easier.

However, you must allow Pro/E to be available to students because a lot of major companies use it.  In the aerospace and mainly automotive industries Catia is used too.  Solidworks would be the best to use throughout a college curriculum in that you can teach it from day one and expect it to be a tool the student can spend time using rather than spending time learning to use it.

Integration with FEA on a academic basis is in Solidworks favor as it has Cosmosworks academic available.  Pro/Mechanica is more basic in that it doesn't do CFD.  True, you would like to get more options for CFD and structural, but the academic cost of Solidworks with Cosmos is less than textbooks.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Here's a question: what are you trying to teach the children?

Until you can answer that question, then any decision you make will be arbitrary.

As an end user, I would like to see them learn a strong tree based approach, a thorough understanding of constraints and parametric modelling, and the ability to visualise parts from the screen. They also must be able to create usable 2D drawings from the model.

If you teach them a package that encourages that approach, good.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I agree with Greg. Also a good understanding of machining is a plus.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I wa skind of hoping that the drafting class didn't have to teach that!

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

When hiring a drafter or designer and having to opt between one who does not know machining and one that does know machining, all else being equal. I would choose the one who does have at least an understanding of machining. Chris is right, and an instructor should encourage a student to study machining even if it is not taught in school.
 
We hired a designer here and he did not know how large or small .001 of an inch was. It took days to teach him the difference between a tenth and a tenth, meaning .0001 and .1
If an Engineer says he want the hard anodize to be 3 tenths thick, he does not mean .3

Bradley

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

About 10 posts up boffin5 asked about my preference for surfacing in Pro/E vs. Solidworks.  It actually has more to do with the structure of references than the surfacing itself.  Pro/E allows me (via Publish Geoms)to select surfaces off of a master model to reference directly in a slave model.  This ends up much cleaner and more lightweight than the assembly references or base part techniques that are available in SW.

The surfacing in Pro also has more visualization tools, and somewhat more capability (we have ISDX).

-b

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Bradley, that's an excellent demonstration of why such knowledge is important--and of course, there are many other such instances.

I was fortunate enough to have had an internship as a model maker while in college--excellent experience, since I was already good at making things and enjoyed doing so.  There's a sort of "callibration" that occurs when working with materials, dimensions, processes, etc. that is, essentially, experience.

The more experience a person has, the more immediately useful that person will be to me--which is where this discussion seems to be going now.  (Great point, GregLocock!)

Jeff Mowry
www.industrialdesignhaus.com
Reason trumps all.  And awe trumps reason.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

We had to take a machining class when I was in school.  The goal was not necessarily to teach us how to be great machinists.  

The goal was showing what needs to be on the drawing for the machinist to get the part made right.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Heckler,

US News & World Report

Best Colleges and Universities Issue

Not just my opinion.

Thanks for asking

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

While the high-end systems are good as far as use in industry, not all industries use the same package.  That is why I feel that SW would be a very good choice.  It will allow students to become familiar with modeling methods which are common regardless of the cad package used.  Once they get out into the real world, they should be able to more easily pick up whatever their future employers are using.

As an aside, Embry-Riddle is very well regarded in the aerospace industy.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Dave,

I have been teaching Solidworks as a side job at Corporate College in the Cleveland Ohio area and have found that my students get a very good basic understanding of the functionality of Solidworks in the 32 hours of training of the level one class. Most of my students are currently AutoCAD users and the companies they work for have recently purchased Solidworks as a new platform.
  While I have never used Pro-E, I have known people who have, and they tell me that to perform the same function in Pro-E that I show them in Solidworks, the answer is almost always the same. Solidworks is easier to understand, and Pro-E has more steps to achieve the same results.

Good luck with which ever choice you make.
Yanceman.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

aerohap - Thanks for listing the documentation.  Here is the link http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/rankengineering_brief.php number one for universities that only offer masters level degrees.

Yanceman - try doing a varible section sweep in SWx?

David - I think if you teach any of the top 3D MCAD programs you will give your students the skills to learn other programs.  Once they understand the basics of parametric modeling they can cross over to other programs.  So pick the one that makes $$$$$$ sense.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

The last version of Pro i used was 2000i. I now have been using SW for the last 3yrs. SW seems easier to learn than Pro.

Just as Yanceman said "Solidworks is easier to understand, and Pro-E has more steps to achieve the same results."

Soldiworks is Dassult's mid-range product, Catia high-end
Pro/E (Wildfire) is PTC main/only CAD product, considered high-end

correct me if im wrong

Adam
Solidworks 2005 SP01.1
Windows 2000

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I thought Wildfire was the "mid-range" offshoot of the full blown Pro/E.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

CBL - IMO the last real version of Pro/E was 2001.  Wildfire is PTC way of making their product look like SWx and in the process they screwed things up.  All the advanced modules work with WF.  Once SWx came on the market PTC had no choice but to lower the price from the $20K it use to sell for in 1996

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Wildfire is just the latest version of Pro/E. They change the name from Pro/E 19, 20, 21, 2000, 2000i, 2000i².....
Started the new Wildfire 1.0, 2.0, 3.0.

Im not real versed on WF because its so different than the previous versions. Now has more of a SW look, icons, easier navigation.

Adam
Solidworks 2005 SP01.1
Windows 2000

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I agree Heckler. I test drove WF 2.0. I was lost for a while. I missed the old Pro/E. But thats neither here nor there. I run nothing but SW now.

Adam
Solidworks 2005 SP01.1
Windows 2000

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

If you can drive a race car you can drive a honda.

I am a recent graduate who learned on both Pro 2001 and wildfire.  At work we use autocad and SW.  I have had no trouble learning these packages, and although i am a little slower im getting better.  They tried to switch to pro/e two years ago here and only one of seven designers really picked it up.  Pro/e is simply a more advanced package.  

How could you could post a recomendation in the solid works forum.  I think the people hear might have a preference.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

No difference where you post, everyone has their own preference. You will find a lot of people prefer SW, and more every year.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

mjh368,

I made my recommendation for SW, though I seldom use it and am a UG driver.  I agree though that those who read this forum may tend to be somewhat biased.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

preference?

I do not believe preference has any place in this conversation.  Preferences develope from years of doing the same thing.  The question was what package is best for students. Anyone doing serious surface moldling and/or required C2 continuity must use Pro/e.

I know a guy who prefers word perfect. I sure aint teaching anyone that.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

"...must use Pro/e."

Thanks for the laugh!

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

excuse me
must use pro/e if your options are pro/e or solid works.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

That makes more sense.  However, the majority of the CAD positions in industry don't require such surface accuracy.  If your goal is to work in product design or automotive design, then yes, surface continuity is important.  If you want to design working mechanisms, then SW is a good choice.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Heckler,

First I'd have to find out what a variable section sweep is. :)

Yanceman

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

thats funny...its similiar to a loft in SW. I considered that more simple of an operation in SW also.

Adam
Solidworks 2005 SP01.1
Windows 2000

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

ParaCAD - The variable section sweep in Pro/E can be driven by more options then can a loft in SWx.  Although, SWx is getting very close to matching those advanced commands that Pro/e has enjoyed exclusively for many years.  I use both daily.  One other thing I like about Pro/e 2001 is the ability to create reference geometry within the feature thus not cluttering up the feature history tree.  But all this is just my opinion as a user of both programs.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 5.0 & Pro/E 2001
Dell Precision 370
P4 3.6 GHz, 1GB RAM
XP Pro SP2.0
NVIDIA Quadro FX 1400
      o
  _`\(,_
(_)/ (_)

Never argue with an idiot. They'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience every time.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Heckler,

There you have the advantage. I've used SW for 5 years, but my info on Pro-E is all second hand.
Also, by combining features into folders in the feature manager keeps my complex models looking clean. It is not until you open the folders within the feature manager that you see all the steps of the model.

Yanceman

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

I agree Heckler. Thats why i consider it more simple in SW than Pro/E. I've used Variable section sweep plenty when I was a regular Pro/E user. There is more of a learning curve Pro/E atleast pre-wildfire. I've told friends in the same field that if you've learned pro/e well you'll be able to pick up SW very easily. Even not knowing Pro/e, i think any student could learn to model much faster in SW than Pro/e.

:) my $0.02

Adam
Solidworks 2005 SP01.1
Windows 2000

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

(OP)
Thanks everyone for the great replies—very helpful!   I tried posting in the Pro/E forum but no response... I’ll try again.  

For ease of use there doesn’t seem to be much controversy.  For completeness, the academic Pro/E package is actually pretty good—includes ISDX, sheetmetal, machining, animation, for example.  Of course there are about a hundred other factors to the decision.

Local industry is split... small companies prefer SWx, larger ones Pro/E or a higher-end package.  

Yes, our learning objectives include visualization, some hand drafting, parametric modeling, 2D drawings, and more.  I wish I could write the learning objectives and choose directly from those, but the MCAD package affects so many other courses, people, and software that there's a complex list of pros and cons.  Not to mention politics!  We’d like to have both packages available to everyone but we probably won’t have the $ for that.  

Importance of machining experience... I could not agree more.  In fact we have an entire semester of lab devoted to manual machining, sheetmetal, hand tools, and woodworking so that they can make what they design.  In my experience the best design engineers are usually the ones who can make what they design, within reason.  (We also have another lab course on mass production processes—CNC, molding, etc., and another on production systems).  

Thanks again, David

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

If you can only choose one, then I would highly suggest allowing some means of the students to do self study on the other package, or perhaps incorporate it into part of one course.  That way the students could get the software and learn it on their own.  Once you get into the job market you will only be able to use the software the business has and will have difficulty gettings hands-on in the other software.

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

dmalicky ... you are probably aware of the educational programs/packages that SolidWorks & PTC offer, but just in case ...

http://solidworks.com/pages/products/edu/index.html
http://solidworks.com/pages/products/edu/educationeditionsoftware.html?pid=106

http://www.ptc.com/for/education/index.htm
http://www.ptc.com/WCMS/files/33577en_file1.pdf

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Quote (mjh368):

preference?
I do not believe preference has any place in this conversation. Preferences develope from years of doing the same thing.

FYI, You are the one that mentioned "preference".

Quote (mjh368):

How could you could post a recomendation in the solid works forum.  I think the people hear might have a preference.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 06
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Hi,

Wow, what a long thread!

First of all, I have to say that I'm a CATIA user but I used before SW. I saw also how Pro-E is working.

In my opinion, SW is most easily to learn vs any other parametric CAD software.

I wasn't curious of how SW and Pro-E shares the market, but I can see on this site that SW has almost double number of members than CATIA or Pro-E.

That means something, isn't it?

Regards
Fernando

RE: College setting: how much faster to learn & use is SW v. ProE?

Being mostly a UG now, I find that Solidworks must seem to attract the type of people who are on the web. There are tons of sites out there with Solidworks content. You'll find very little regarding Catia and UG. Pro/E, you'll find a bit more.

It's hard to go by the members here....there are many CAD forums on the web, in most cases, the majority of a particular CAD programs users may hang out at one or two places.

Jason

UG NX2.02.2 on Win2000 SP3
SolidWorks 2005 SP5.0 on WinXP SP2
SolidWorks 2006 SP3.3 on WinXP SP2

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