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Jerkholes at the office
14

Jerkholes at the office

Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
This has happened more than once and is happening one again- running into total jerks at the office. At my previous job, it was the boss. He was very disrespectful and crude. I couldn't deal with or even believe someone would be that way.

Now I am working for a controls contractor. There are two "pseudo-engineers" (no engineering degree or education, but in the role as "engineers") who, although they are not my bosses, are fairly well-anchored and influential in the company (small company). They are both pretty negative towards me. I am a mechanical engineering graduate and will be testing for my PE license in 3 weeks, although a license is not required in this position.

Just curious if others have expereinced total jerks in the office- those who, you know you can't smart off to because they can either fire you or get you fired.

How do you deal with it?

Am I possibly being too submissive to start off so that they sense this and take advantage of my good nature?

Thanks for any ideas.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

“This has happened more than once and is happening once again”  

Seem like a pattern for you.  Perhaps you should consider yourself unlucky for running into these types so often or take the time for some reflection.

Do you feel superior to those crude people?
Your question, “Am I possibly being too submissive?”  At first glance, I think you are too critical and lack the ability to accept people that are different than you.  

To answer your question, “How do you deal with it?”  I don’t have the problem, so I might be one of those types of people you are talking about.

Then again, maybe you are just unlucky.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

3
Your style and tone belie your subject matter.  

People who say "in my humble opinion," generally aren't.

Your desire to "smart off" to "jerkholes" speaks more about you than them.

Frankly, your attitude towards others is appalling.

TTFN



RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
I figured that some might think that I could be partially to blame because it isn't the first time. That could be correct, which is what I am trying to explore.

No, I don't at all feel or act superior. In fact, I show nothing but respect for their experience and knowledge.

I have no problem with accepting people unlike myself. In fact, I often hear these two individuals calling people idiots (behind their backs) and any other name in the book. I think that they may be more the unaccepting types. I don't understand how asking if I was too submissive indicates that I'm not able to accept people different than myself.

My asking if I am too submissive was an effort to uncover something  I could be doing wrong. Again, since this is not the first time this scenario has happened (2nd time in a year), maybe I am sending some type of signal that says I will accept it- I don't know.

One of the biggest faults of mine is that I can be overly sensitive. Maybe I should just let their negativity roll off my back and cintinue on with my job. The only problems there is that often I have to interact with them and, frankly, I am not very motivated to do so after seeing the way they are.


Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.

I am trying.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
IRStuff,
I appreciate your response.

I don't really think I have a bad attitude towards these guys. I actually wrote the original thread when I was a little angry, so perhaps it showed through.

When I said "smart off", I think I just meant to reply to them in the same manner in which they address me. I never literally meant that I would smart off to them like an immature kid would.

Did someone mention "in their humble opinion"? I don't understand why that comment is there.

If you don't mind, please explain what is appalling about my attitude towards others? Is it because I called them jerks? Again, this part was just me releasing a little steam. I apologize if it thwarted the tone of the thread.

Thanks for your comments.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

HVAC, judging by what you have written here, it seems that you could be sending off vibes to these folks.  Consider your work environment a jungle and you are a little lower on the food chain than these guys.  They can probably sense some fear and maybe some lack of self confidence?  The guys who have worked their way up the ladder tend to respect the attitude that you know what youre doing before looking at whether you can do the work or not.  If you don't come in like you know what is what, they will never look past it to see if you can actually achieve anything.  Just 'my humble opinion.'

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Thanks Livingston, for the constructive advice.

I think you might be right on. In all honesty, I am a little nervous in this role and I don't exude the most self-confidence. I just don't see why this should be an indication for them to move in for the kill when they see a little blood.

However, I have been on the other side of the fence. I have hired less experienced engineers and others. In these instances, I try to boost their confidence, congratulate them for doing well,etc.... Its not about how high you go on the corporate ladder, but how many people you bring with you. I honestly belive that this is what a good leader does. This is not what I am receiving. I guess I'm just different.


Thanks for the encouragement!

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Quote:

How do you deal with it?

I'd bite my tongue, and act professional.  My ears would probably turn red and my face might flush, but I'll still be courteous.  A friend told me once, "You wouldn't punch a mentally retarded person for drooling on you, would you?"

And it depends on your work environment.  I know who I can banter with (and to what degree) and who I can't.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Jerkholes at the office

You'll probably have to ignore it as best you can, or get in their faces and let them know about it in no uncertain terms.  If you get fired, so be it. Sometimes a night in jail is worth it for sticking up for yourself.  Of course, if you have a wife and kids, then you probably can't go that route.  At any rate, it should be like "water off a duck's back".  All you can do is deal with it and be quiet, let them know about it, or just move on somewhere else.  Some personal reflection to see how much of it is you would probably help some.    

RE: Jerkholes at the office

As the saying goes "It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile"...or was that a song....

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Always take the high-road.  When they say something rude, reply with a laugh and remind them how funny you think they are.  Don't get sucked into their BS.

According to your note, you are SUPPOSED to be smarter than they, right?  Well, start acting like it.  

Good luck.

H.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Quote:

I'd bite my tongue, and act professional.
Thou wunn't thound bewwy pwofwesshunal thow. smile

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Thanks for all the replies.

Someone mentioned that I was supposed to smarter than them. I don't know about that. I am just shocked at how people act.

I didn't mention that others seem to either have the same problem or had the same problem with these two.

I do try to laugh when they get ridiculous, not of of disrespect, but just to lighten things up a bit.

Maybe I'm not as resilient as I could be. Its just so frustrating and saddening to have to deal with the negativity and gruff attitudes when I cannot tell what I might have done wrong.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Maybe you are too resilient, try being malleable.

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."
Steven K. Roberts, Technomad
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
I like that MadMango! smile

Good point.

Thanks for making me laugh-I needed that.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

IRStuff--how is being upset that someone else is disrespectful and crude an "appalling" attitude toward others?

I'm appalled.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Hg,
Thanks for asking that. I was curious as well. IT had me feeling badly.

Maybe it was because in my original post (when I was still pretty hot), I mentioned that they were "pseudo engineers" and called them "jerkholes". I guess I did sound a little childish, although it was more of a rant than my true feelings.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

exactly.  

It's all about inappropriate behavior.  "Smarting off" to your superior in a public setting is ALWAYS inappropriate.  Under the right private or limited situations and right audience, a little ribbing does no damage.

TTFN



RE: Jerkholes at the office

Quote:

My sister with her PhD. in Psychology has always advised me that the person at the top of the organization will imprint his/her personality on the organization.  If they're nice honest demanding people, then the org will be on a fairly even keel.  If they're a whacko psycho backstabbing evil SOB, then the whole place will be neurotic and dysfunctional.

I have one question.  Do these "engineers" act this way around the owners of the company?

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Heckler,
They are a little brash towards them at times. They talk heavy trash about them behind their backs. As a matter of fact, they talk badly about EVERYONE behind their backs. Its actually very disgusting. I know, because I am usually within earshot. Maybe I just can't handle it was well as others can. I would like to resolve the issue so that neither I nor anyone else has to go through it any longer. At the very least, I would like to learn how to deal with and/or ignore it.

IRStuff,
I thought I explained myself well enough, but I guess not.
Three things that I may not have expressed very well:
1) They are not my superiors, but do have more years experience.
2) I wouldn't "smart off", as mentioned. I was blowing a little steam on this site. I assumed this was a community in which I could share my feelings and gain some insite.
3) I never disrespect anyone, particularly a boss, even after the rude treatment I have been getting.

I am sorry if the tone of my original post misled you a bit.

Thanks IR and everyone else for the insight.

Ed

I wouldn't

RE: Jerkholes at the office

No problem... I was basing this all on your initial posting.

TTFN



RE: Jerkholes at the office

Thinking from a different angle.  

This could be due to a job security issue for the so-called "jerks".  Here's a new guy coming in, who is more qualified (definitely academically) and probably has the potential to be their boss and start creating trouble for them.  May be this is what they must be thinking ???

I've been into similar situations in the past and continue to have problems, whenver I join a new organisation.  I have got over these issues, primarily by having a one-to-one talk (depends on the other person as well) as well as having a clear-cut job role/responsibility matrix drawn so that some amount of ambiguity gets resolved.

Good luck.

HVAC68

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Thanks HVAC68,
One of our subcontractors mentioned to me that this could be the case. It could be true, especially based on several comments I have heard them make as well as other factors.

Even so, they are pretty-well established at the small company where I work- one for about 12 years, one for about 8. I think it silly for them to be threatened, but I guess it happens.

Even if this is the cause, I am still not sure how to remedy the situation. Do I overly express my admiration and awe at their capabilities? This would be hard for me to do as it would be kind of fake. I have, however, shown them respect regarding their experience and capabilities.

Just the other day, one of them made a comment on a panel I was building. I thanked him for the advice. Then, later, when it appeared there could be a glich, he said "I told you, but you said you had it all under control". This was just the opposite, I had heeded his original advice. But, yet, he was more than willing to bask in the glory of my possible failure, blame it on me AND interject that he had advised otherwise. Maybe that could be a little insecurity on his part.

Determining how to handle things of this nature is the hard part.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

HVACctrl you say:

There are two "pseudo-engineers" (no engineering degree or education, but in the role as "engineers")

No, I don't at all feel or act superior. In fact, I show nothing but respect for their experience and knowledge.

If you don't mind, please explain what is appalling about my attitude towards others?


Look at your own statements above and decide for yourself what might be wrong with your attitude.  Then you proceed to talk about these guys behind their back to a subcontractor:
 
One of our subcontractors mentioned to me that this could be the case.

You are no better than the “pseudo-engineers,” only slightly less obvious about it.  You may consider looking for a new job if the people you have discussed negative issues regarding the two “pseudo-engineers” discuss your conversation behind your back with the “pseudo-engineers.”  Talking behind people’s backs seems to be commonplace around you.  Do you think that the subcontractor will find an alliance with an EIT of greater value than skilled engineers with 20 years combined experience?  HVACctrl, after rereading your comments I believe, you feel superior to what you call the “pseudo-engineers.”  When called on it, you offer up excuses to justify your behavior.  Some of the name calling you made in your first post could be applied to you just as easily the two “pseudo-engineers.”  

It looks like it is not just bad luck that you keep running into total jerks.  I suspect that you bring them out of the woodwork.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

I believe that we have here the classical fight "experience vs. formal education" and that's it.
They will continue to make your life miserable until you put them in their place.
I will tell you a past experience that I had:
One previous job that I had was in a company where I was the Enginnering director's assessor. Later the department was split in two and I was promoted to head of one of hte parts being my former boss the head of the other. By that time he was in the company 16 or 17 years and I was at 2 years.
After that he started having some strange atitudes towards me. I had been already warned that he was quite blunt and sometimes even a jerk but up to that moment he had been quite polite to me. Our relationship saw some degradation after my promotion until one day that we had a very nasty talk over the phone.
In the same day, I went to my office, wrote him an email saying that I was feeling that relationship degradation since my promotion, naming the wrong attitudes that he had had towards me and tell him very clearly that I would not accept that kind of behaviour anymore and in case of repetition I would go directly to the CEO. In the following day in the morning when he read the email, he came to me, apologized and this never happened again.
Sometimes you have to show your teeth for them to know that you can also bite.

Good luck

RE: Jerkholes at the office

My advice is not to comment about them infront of your subcontractors or any other colleagues (who are friendly with you at the moment). Times may swing and you may have to regret it.

Sometime back I was playing with my crude boss (just like yours) by taking help from one of the jerks. When the boss left, the jerk became my boss and I had to renew my tactics immediately, but there was a time lag. I could pressurize that fellow only with my resignation. It worked on him heavily but I had to walk out as I wanted to stick to it.

Be calm, try to grab as much knowledge as possible, admire their capability of holding places though they don't seem to be capable(?), glue a smile to your face and be humble.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Zapster,
I see your point. It looks like I feel superioir.

I can assure you that I don't feel or act that way. As mentioned, I would never disrespect them regarding their education. In reality, they brought up the fact, not me.

I was not talking behind their back by writing this.

I was not coming up with excuses as you mention.

I did nothing to bring this out in them. In fact, several people have mentioned that they deal with the same problems with these two.

Perhaps I just can't handle it as well. Perhaps I see a problem and I feel it needs fixing, not sweeping under the rug.

They began mentioning my education, etc... I said nothing of it except here on this forum.

Yes, that was childish, and I regret it because it really has diverted from the real scenario I amfacing.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

I have to agree with HVAC68's approach.

I recall when I transferred to a new position, as the so-called "educated" engineer working alongside two other metallurgists who did not possess degrees but had about ten years more experience. One of them clearly resented my presence, especially when he got nosy and found out my salary. The other was not as agressive but he considered himself qualifed to be our boss even though he was passed over for the position.

The comments were not just behind my back, they were in my face too. I suppose one reaction would have been a swift punch to the jaw but that joy wouldn't last for long. I toughed it out for nine years, simply letting my work speak for me. I did not come there to make friends, only make a living. I learned to ignore.

Anyway, I became their boss! Again the resentment was open and fiery. Yet I was able to gain their respect with a simple gesture. I got them business cards, the first ones they ever had in 20+ years of working there. It worked to raise the morale and it allowed me to trust them. To add to that we were into a major quality issue and I did not have any time for any BS. I wasn't so naive as to think they didn't talk about me anymore but it wasn't in my face either (everything they said came back to me anyway as their buddies were mine too!).

I don't see anything wrong with feeling superior to others, it's a lot better than feeling inferior. You just don't broadcast it to make it obvious - that is really being a jerk.

Be strong and try not to unload on them - I know it's tempting.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

I worked for over three years in such an environment. My advice is:

GET OUT!

Then give the top boss a message why you left. He may appreciate it. After I left, the clowns were terminated.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
THanks, everyone.

Again, not coming up with excuses, I want to re-itereate some things.

I didn't talk negatively behind these guys backs to our subcontractor. He (the sub contractor) is an extremely nice guy who merely asked how I was doing. I didn't put a negative spin on these guys (and haven't to anyone), but I did mention that I didn't think I was fitting in with them. He then casually suggested that they might have security issues.

I never treated them badly, never disrespected them, nothing. In fact, everytime I approach them, I am respectful and mindful of their time, etc....

Zapster says I am no better for talking about them. I want to stress that my talking about them was a constructive effort to help determine a path to resolution- no mud slinging, etc.... It was all positive.

Again, I am not coming up with excuses. I wrote the original post the way I did because I was upset at the time. I have never expressed this attitude towards them. In fact, I respect their achievements and capabilities.... its their attitudes towards me AND OTHERS that I cannot stomach. It throws all the other good stuff out the window.

I laid out their backgrounds and mine to help give you guys some of the background. It seems to have lead some people into thinking its an experience vs education struggle (which, maybe it is) while it seems to have led some into believing I have a superior attitude towards them. But I really don't. I just presented it in an inappropriate manner.

But I do see your point and how you might interpret things.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Quote:

Again, not coming up with excuses, I want to re-itereate some things.....But I do see your point and how you might interpret things.

Best advice anyone has ever given me... when you point a finger at someone, remember that there are three pointing back at you

I work in a company with a mix of people... some with lots of experince and no education, some with none, but plenty of degrees... and a range in the middle...

I don't think anyone here knows that I have a masters degree in engineering... I also don't think anyone cares... just my personal impression... The best mentor I have had as an engineer, had no degree. He couldn't stand me at first, because I did... and honestly, I (completely unintentionally) treated him as if he were inferior... Then my boss had a conversation with me... either get along with *bob* or go away!... lo and behold, I eventually came to understand the error of my way, befriended bob (more - he befriended me)! and if I had to choose, I'd have taken 4 years with bob, in lieu of four years at U.

just my **humble** opinion!

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Thanks Wes.

I agree wholeheartedly. I don't really think I mistreated them or acted superior. But who knows? Perhaps my personality comes across that way- totally inadvertantly if so.

I did mention their backgrounds (but only in this thread) because they have gone out their way to point out mine. I think it could be a sticking point for them in a way.

It looks like I'll try harder to take the high road (when I say "high road", I don't mean superior in any way) and see what I can do to emphasize that I am not a threat and that I don't feel superior.

If that doesn't work and these guys can't lighten up, I may talk to one or both of them.

Still not working, I may talk to my boss- one of the owners.

If that doesn't doesn't work, I think its really not worth having to deal with the totally unnecessary stress and mental angusih to continue to work here.

A little more background: Someone mentioned that they had combined 20 years experience. That is not the case. One has about 21 years (with 12 at this company) and one has about 24 (with 8 at this company). They are well expereinced guys. They are extremlely knowledgeable and intellectual. I have 9 total years of experience plus 2 co-op years while in school. Most of my years of experience were not in this exact type of setting, but in this general field. ALL of theirs was in this EXACT setting.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Frankly, HVACctrl, I can’t believe some of the responses your getting from posters I’ve come to respect on other topics.  Clearly, they have not had to work under this exact type of circumstances before.  I have and I know what you’re probably going through.
My first job out of school was in a manufacturing company with an engineering dept. of eight “engineers” and drafters.  Myself and one other engineer was degreed.  We were both experienced in manufacturing environments and knew how show respect and get help from the experienced shop floor workers and machinists as well as the “engineering” staff who had been there for a while.  The engineering manager had only a high school education but years of experience in the industry, so fair enough.
The problem was primarily with one of the “engineers”.  He didn’t like us even though we NEVER acted superior nor treated him with complete respect.  Two incidents describe daily activities there.  We were in a staff meeting discussing scheduling.  I can’t remember what brought this subject about but without any provocation, after I had just made some comment about out topic, this person turns to me and states, “Well, if you were such a fat slob, you wouldn’t have issues like that!”  I was stunned at such an unprofessional comment completely uncalled for.  Additionally, half those present (the people who had been there a while) laughed along with him.  I caught myself just before I told him I now understood why his wife just left him.  No sense lowering myself to his level.  (he was fooling around on her, inviting girlfriends over while hiss home babysitting his two young children.  He should have paid attention to how quickly his kids were learning to talk.)
Second, I was under my desk one day reinstalling my computer (was double duty as the network administrator).  He comes into my office, sees me on the floor, grabs one of my legs and drags me out into the hallway proclaiming to the whole office he’s landed a whale.  This was typical behavior for many there including the general manager.
This company had lost five of their previous engineers (degreed) within the last 2 years.  The other engineer soon quit (sadly, we became friends and he kept encouraging me to hang in there until I had enough engineering experience to find a better position).  Then, after 17 months, they laid me off due to “inadequate job performance”.  I asked regularly for a performance review, performance evaluation, anything to let me know if I was meeting their expectations.  I told my manager several times that I was not looking for a pay increase, just some sort of sign of what I needed to improve or if everything was okay.  He said I was doing fine, every time.  Then, out of the blue, lay off.  The manager (who had never held an actual engineering position) told me I might consider going into another profession.  I had to laugh!  I’ve had stellar performance reviews in every position I’ve held since then, obtained my PE, and one of the points that continually comes up is I am respected by and work well with my peers.  I get along well with the trades people as well, mainly because I show a great deal of respect for their expertise and let them know I value what they teach me.
Back to the story, the state initially denied my unemployment claim until I shared this bit of information, then my benefits were awarded within a week.  By the way, the company folded <12 months after my layoff.

So, HVACctrl, my advice is dust off the resume and get to looking.  There are great jobs with great people out there, lots of them.  Too many to mire your career in a bad environment.  You just have to look at the people in this forum to see that there are some rich working relationships to be had.

IMHO, for IRstuff's benefit.  winky smile

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Thanks Reifleman,
Similar deal with me- unprovoked, negative, unprofessional aggressive actions.

I'm sorry to hear what you had to deal with. Good leaders bring people up with them. I had two VERY good examples for whom I have worked. In retrospect, it seemed that they were also dogged (behind their backs) by others who either didn't get them or didn't like them (for some unexplained reason).

I have gotten along VERY well with others in different atmospheres as well.

I guess its just one of those things. Some people take advantage of the good nature of others. They see it as a weekness or an opportunity to put others down in a vain attempt to raise themselves up. Crazy, I think.

I'll keep my eye open. Right now my focus is the PE- 3 weeks until test time.

Hopefully, if things go well with that, I will have more/ better options.

Thanks again for sharing.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

He didn’t like us even though we NEVER acted superior nor treated him with ANYTHING BUT complete respect.

sorry

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Since you spend at least a third or more of your awake life at work, find a place to work that is at least pleasant, if not rewarding.  Life is too short to spend it working w/ jerkholes.  Get your PE test out of the way and find a new job.

Good luck.

I'm sorry, but I guess I'm a jerkhole too, but I had to laugh out loud at the "landed a whale" story. LOL

Brian

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Wow Reifleman, the people you had to deal with sound like utter tools.

I'm not saying your methods are incorrect, nor your way of dealing with things, I assume they work for you.
I personally refuse to back down and I never just walk away from an issue. It gets solved one way....or another.
I used to ignore certain issues and they either fester or follow me to my next place.

Now I can take my fair share of ribbing, alot of ribbing, and I always enjoy a good laugh at my expense or that of others, but the person doing the ribbing better be ready for thrice the amount back from me.

However if the person shows aggression I never, ever, back down, mind you I'm 6ft5 and used to kickbox competitively so aggression usually doesn't surface when people deal with me, but I've had a tradesmen threaten to beat the snot out of me with a wrench before.....needless to say I'm still full of snot, he wears a tensor bandage around his knee and we get along great. Sometimes violence solves all your problems.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

Quote:

However if the person shows aggression I never, ever, back down, mind you I'm 6ft5 and used to kickbox competitively so aggression usually doesn't surface when people deal with me, but I've had a tradesmen threaten to beat the snot out of me with a wrench before.....needless to say I'm still full of snot, he wears a tensor bandage around his knee and we get along great. Sometimes violence solves all your problems.

Sometimes people need a good flogging to bring them back to reality. hammer

RE: Jerkholes at the office

......
.................Jerkhole?.................

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
FACS,
Don't know where that came from.... Pure inspiration I guess! :D

RE: Jerkholes at the office

3
"Second, I was under my desk one day reinstalling my computer (was double duty as the network administrator).  He comes into my office, sees me on the floor, grabs one of my legs and drags me out into the hallway proclaiming to the whole office he’s landed a whale."

In this whole sad thread (which should be called When will I grow up?) at least that made me laugh.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Greg,

Was that directed at me?

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I can see that the tone of my original post (calling them names, etc) may have sounded a little sophamoric.

But cheap shots like that and laughing at someone's misfortunate treatment isn't really very mature or constructive.

Yes, my post was childish. I've said it over and over agin. It was a mistake, I see now, to air my frustration in that manner.

But, are you suggesting that I am acting immature for taking offense to the unsolicited verbal attacks? Am I being immature for not letting it role off my back? I take my career seriously and I have a difficult time understanding or dealing with ill-intended attempts to undermine my success and self-confidence from two arrogant, cinical, sef-serving indiciduals who treat newcomers who aren't like themselves poorly.

If that is an indication of immaturity, then I guess I just don't get it. I'm willing to admit that.

What do you consider the instigators?

I don't get it.

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

There have been a couple of occassions when I've been very surprised at the tone of the responses to my posts (And to some others, so much so i wonder what they have read that i didn't) but that's life. We are all volutarily here so we can take it or leave it.

Some days we catch our colleagues here before they've had their coffee, I've done that a few times, and some days we just don't see the world from the same perspective and some days we are wrong and others will tell us so; if enough people tell me I'm wrong I'll give it some thought, but it doesn't mean I'll agree.
Fair enough.

Not so easy with our jobs.
Unfortunately, there are some very strange people we have to work with or for.

In all my jobs I found at least one "Jerkoff", and sometimes more.
If I changed jobs everytime, I'd probably have changed jobs year after year.
Did I find some way to deal with these people?
No.
I just shaped my work around them.

They don't learn, they don't change, nobody changes them and most often they are the ones who survive layoffs and redundancies; they must have some survival gene I don't know about.
Some of them became managers (or were that way inclined when I encountered them).

At my first job fresh from college, I had a less qualified colleague, but capable and severely ambitious, and not above some very unprofessional behaviour. (actually, he was far more honest in his approach than some I met subsequently).
As we both progressed it was management's sense of humour to give us adjacent desks.
We never came to blows, we both got our work done. I often wondered if it was just me?
When I left that job he had already gone. We both went for the right reasons, though in his case his gift of the gab landed him a partnership with an entrepeneurial type equally as aggressive, ambitious, self-opinionated and abrasive - it didn't last long and he now works for himself and pretty successfully.
Ironically, once we no longer worked for the same company we began to get on quite well and of course, it was after we both left I discovered that I hadn't been imagining what a jerk he was, everyone else had been quite happy that I was his target and not them.

I could describe many others but why bother, a jerkoff is a jerkoff however you describe him/her. Some are a nuisance and some are actively trying to destroy your career. Go figure.

However, I never worked with anyone so extreme I just had to get out and I am never surprised that not everyone loves me.
It is rare to get the satisfaction of seeing them meet an appropriate doom (congratulations to THEReifleman for that).

Just don't take it personally, don't let it wreck your day. If you dont respond, as often as not they don't get any satsifaction and you can survive just fine.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Jerkholes at the office

"Jerkholes (I assume a cross between jerk-offs & @$$holes?) aren't limited to offices. They can be found in all walks of life, and often turn up where you least expect them.

cheers
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RE: Jerkholes at the office

"No, I don't at all feel or act superior. In fact, I show nothing but respect for their experience and knowledge"  

Based on what?  People are not as dumb as we think.  Behavior cues are numerous.  That's how professional poker players make their money, by obvserving otherwise insignificant behavioral traits.

Additionally, people are quite adept at seeing what you DON'T do.  Both overt behavior AND unperformed behavior are clues to your attitude.

You say you "show nothing but respect,"  but you never say that YOU "respect them and their experience."  

There are plenty of bigots who don't think they're bigots, because they're always polite to their inferiors.

TTFN



RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
IR,
I'll take thst into consideration. I'll scrutinize myself a little more closely.

Perhaps my not going out of my way to talk to them lately because of their attitudes has added fuel to the fire as they may have construed that as being snobish.

Maybe my forgoing lunch with them (on the rarfe occaision that we are together during the day) because I am choosing to use that time to study for my PE test coming up has been misinterpreted as being uppity. I don't know.

But I'll look at these things.

Two more facts:
1) They take issue with people with and without college educations
2) My best boss ever had no degree in engineering, was our director of engineering and I never felt nor did I show any level of superiority towards him
3) A different boss I had who had an identical position to these guys (who, again, are not my bosses) really knew how to bring newcomers up and create an environment of teamwork. They have no idea.

I do know that they both suffered the first half of their careers working for an extremely cut-throat local branch office of a worldwide conglomerate. There people were cut like grass, layoffs came if a project didn't make the percentage, firings came on a call for a 10% reduction even if your department was making all the money, but another department was pulling down the ship.

Maybe some of this has carried over to a unique survival rsponse- fight or flight?

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

It boils down to the fact that you and them are two completely different personalties.  From my own experiences it doesn't really work, they have a different outlook to you and vice versa.

Me and my university housemate had problems very similar to what you have described and we tried to resolve issues but we parted ways and that was that.

Positive point to take, is that we both found people that did have the same types of personality- so don't lose heart.

RE: Jerkholes at the office


Your situation blows.  Sorry to hear about it.  People can, in fact, be jerks no matter where you go.  Hang in there.  Just remember these facts:

1.)  You can't control how anyone treats you
2.)  The only thing in your control is how you react to other people's attitudes, judgements, comments, etc.

You will never completely get rid of jerks in the workplace.  They are everywhere.  So consider these guys a good way to practice how to deal with them.  The best way to deal with problem people is to change YOUR attitude and approach to them.  It's tough to do and it will sometimes require you to swallow your pride and change for their sakes, but its the only thing you can control in the situation.

I once listened to some tapes that really helped me get along with all different types of people.  It's called "How to deal with Difficult People" by Brinkman and Kirschner.  The guys on the tapes are so happy and upbeat it made me want to bang my head on the wall, but there is some really good methods in there that have helped me tremendously.

Good luck.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

It really annoys me that we have to be nice and accomodating to dillholes at work and in life. While I recognise that some people just seem to attract animosity via their attitudes, other people genuinely want to do well and are set upon by the less able.

I do not believe in accomodating the whims of the envious or inept, people who shout discrimination at the first sign that someone else is being treated better, or has had an easier life etc etc really annoy me.
It's been my experience that the person who is most loudly against the stink is the one whom reeks of it.

In the case of subordinates an occasional strong response, solves the problem at hand and places fear into the hearts of all the others (refer to my earlier post in this thread).
Unfortunately not all people can get away with such reprisals, although I'll bet most would love the chance.

Usually the dillhole has the ear of your superior, hence his attitude. In this case, covertly undermining his position works, ignoring the problem just causes it to get worse since the reason the person does these things is to get attention or to annoy you.
What's that you say? You're worried that you'll get fired for trying to undermine the dillhole???
What does it matter?
If you don't undermine him, he'll eventually force you to leave anyway.

Maybe I'm just weird, but it's my belief that the real world is much like the animal kingdom, a lion will only take so much nonsense from another lion before he solves his problem with a quick sharp growl/snarl/bite, then all is well again, until the next tosser tries his luck with the alpha.

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
bradpa77,
Thank you for the info on the tapes. I will certainly look into them. This is on the lines of what I was looking for.

ziggi,
Good points. They do have the owners' ears. But I suspect the owners know how they are. I do try to accomodate them to a point without playing the part of the pushover. Its a pencil-thin fine line. I agree that if I get fired for lashing out, it should be no big loss. However, I want that time to come when I am ready for it. If I get to a point that I have something else lined up OR that being unemployed for an extended period is OK, but I still want to give this place a chance, I could go that route. THEN if I get shown the door for returning the favor to these two, it won't matter.

For now, I will think of some of the replies I have gotten so far and figure out the best political and professional ways to deal with the situation. IF that doesn't work, I'll get my ducks in a row and then set them straight.

Thanks y'all,

Ed

RE: Jerkholes at the office

In thread732-123729 I had some potentially useful reading material for this situation.

Hg

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RE: Jerkholes at the office

I have also worked with "pseudo-engineers" (people who are placing in engineering positions that do not have an analytical thought process).  They are generally difficult to deal with as they tend to be defensive, critical, and political more often than analytical.  My other observation is that they tend to enjoy solving familair problems over and over.  Read "they are EXPERTS" but rarely share the process knowledge with anyone else.

My advice would be as others have recommended let your work speak for you, stay focused on what you need to do in order to succeed, and keep excellent records (CYA).  

Also may also wish to remember this little bit of wisdom I saw on a church sign "THAT WHICH ANGERS YOU CONTROLS YOU"
If you find your interaction with them is effecting your homelife or your health find out from your insurance provider if you are covered for mental health services.  A good therapist will be able help you identify what buttons they are pushing to get you EXCITED.

I would offer one other observation, if the company that you work for starts hiring primarily "pseudo-engineers" you may want to consider a new job.  Companies that employ large numbers of "EXPERTS" & have stagnant processes tend to get beaten by companies that employ innovators.

I wish you luck with this difficult situation.

-John    

RE: Jerkholes at the office

(OP)
Thanks John,
I have learned a lot from the replies.

As for the innovation, it doesn't seem to be a high priority here. As I get more accepted and I see areas in need of improvement, I will definitely do my best to innitiate these things- without stepping on toes if possible.

Your first statement "They are generally difficult to deal with as they tend to be defensive, critical, and political more often than analytical" hit the nail on the head. I didn't want to stereotype and classify them like this, but it seems more and more true.

One of the guys is a little easier to deal with, particularly since I went and had a few beers with him after work last Friday. The other one seems as though he will always be the same.

I will try to think of the various advice given here and just do my best to make this a positive, productive work environment for everyone.

Thanks again,

Ed

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