Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
(OP)
Though I am not myself a civil engineer I work with civil engineers. I was talking to one this morning who is driving between two offices an hour apart to work on three projects! I know there are those among you who have worked on more than that at one time so please don't regale me with your own tales of tribulation. I see how hard it is on this guy.
According to this civil engineer there is a distinct shortage of civil engineers. My question is, where are the civil engineers? Why aren't college students electing CivE as a profession?
According to this civil engineer there is a distinct shortage of civil engineers. My question is, where are the civil engineers? Why aren't college students electing CivE as a profession?





RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
In the movie there was the famous line "Show me the money". Well, show me the money and I will find you the civil engineers.
It is called Economics 101, but most engineers do not seem to be too familiar with the concept.
htt
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
A lot of the people I used to work with have also changed industries, and though I hate to admit it, money had a lot to do with it. In my neck of the woods most civil engineers figured out that 'typical' civil engineering just doesn't pay as well as some of the counterparts.
The Institution of Civil Engineers reckon there is a massive skills shortage in the UK. Civil engineering doesnt really sell itself very well, especially when compared to law, medicine and accountancy. For that reason there are not many new students starting civil engineering at university. There are quite a few universities in the UK that have closed their civil engineering departments.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
There simply is no way to weed out bad consultants. Civil engineering programs have to accept student's they otherwise wouldn't to keep the school financially viable. The FE/PP exams and licensure don't seem to be working. How many licenses are revoked in your state each year? E&O insurers will insure anyone for the right price, and plenty of consultants go bare. The tort law system has burned as many good engineers as bad ones that get off with nothing. Much of the industry works for private developers who are mostly only concerned with the up-front costs, and figure they can make a claim on the consultant’s insurance if things go badly. I'll stop there, but there is much that needs fixing. For those of you with access to ASCE Journals, check out “How can We Encourage High Quality Engineering?” a commentary by Justin Sweet in the January 2005 Journal of Professional Issues in Engineering Education and Practice.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
My company, and my principal client, (and seemingly the whole UK water industry in general)are short of engineers of all disciplines. Recruitment companies aren't bothering to send any candidates our way because we aren't offering competitive salaries. The hiring managers justification for the low offers: "We can't afford to raise everyone's salary to competitive rates and its not fair to offer the new guy significantly more than the guy already in-post".
Whilst it seems like an admirable sentiment, it leaves the guy in post doing the job of 2 people for below-average wages. No wonder everyone's moving jobs at the moment.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
When I was in my "predicament" my "less noble" company was hiring less qualified engineers for more money and my options were (1) get an offer from someone else and get my company to counter it, and (2) go somewhere else. Since (1) didn't sit well with my moral code, I waited for (2) and got a great job at the DfT. At least the government pays competitive salaries!
Eventually, either the Tories will beat Labour and the work will dry up and the engineer shortage will come to an end, or the industry will eventually drag the pay scale up one employee at a time. Heck, one day maybe the graduate engineer will make as much as the receptionist with only a GCSE.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Money is the key. Forget job satisfaction and all that rot. The money isnt there.
A large steel making facility in Austrlia is losing engineers from thier maintenance division as they can earn more (70%) by being a production operator. Paid overtime, no stress or worries, job security etc etc. They dont have to worry about begging for books, software, computers, standards to do their job. If the product is faulty , blame the machine NOT get blamed for some engineering oversight because you are overworked.
The managers need to wake up to themselves.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
francesca (Civil/Environme): Wow! I can't imagine my secretary making more than me...remind me not move to England.
I agree with stanier (Mechanical), I find a severe shortage of anyone in any position who can think innovatively and spontaneously, then work creatively and efficiently to solve a problem in a novel way...call that person a civil eng., mech. eng., or just a good technician.
Now, to the OP: Why? It certainly IS the case; here in PA, USA, you can't hire and retain a decent site/civil of any level to save your life. I think it is complacency. A good engineer - in any discipline - will make a nice living, eventually. But it is easier and looks better to just take an OK job, with a relatively high entry-level wage, like drafting. So most do, then in their mid-40's, become disgruntled that "life has passed them by", when in fact it is they who have passed life by. Doesn't help us find more civil's, though.
Remember, amateurs built the ark...professionals built the Titanic. -Steve
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Sad, but true.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
When you go into a dentist's office, there may be 5 to 10 dental hygienists assisting a single doctor. Same thing when you visit an attorney; 5 to 10 paralegals supporting 1 lawyer.
When you have a look at a typical civil engineering firm, you've got 18 "Senior Project Managers," 4 civil engineering techs, and 2 draftsmen.
Now it's rather clear that many engineers are able to basically make-up their own job title, but it also seems to me that there might be a bit of an oversupply in civil engineers. With the general decline in required engineering program credit hours dropping for a BS degree, it would appear that it's getting too easy to get a civil engineering degree. The low pay for civil engineers is probably a result of the oversupply and a general ambiguity with the profession about what a "real" engineer is and isn't (there are plenty of threads about that).
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Don't you wonder who actually does the work, since most of the folks are responsible for "business development"?
"With the general decline in required engineering program credit hours dropping for a BS degree, it would appear that it's getting too easy to get a civil engineering degree. The low pay for civil engineers is probably a result of the oversupply and a general ambiguity with the profession about what a "real" engineer is and isn't..."
I don't necessarily agree. You still need the adequate experience to sit for the P.E., even if you skate on the experience, actually being able to pass the test is no mean feat.
The money in engineering isn't in the actual engineering work, it's in bringing in the work.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
DaveVikingPE (Structural)"Don't you wonder who actually does the work, since most of the folks are responsible for "business development"?"
LOL...you both sound like you work for my firm; repeatedly in the top 40% of ENRs 500, over 300 employees around the globe, costs about $2,000 worth of meetings to fill out a General Permit application; no $$ for training ever available, but $x00,000 for BD/year; no entry-level job offerings currently on our webpage, BTW.
MRM (Geotechnical: "...drafters (perhaps 3 to 5 years of experience) billing out at about the same as an EIT..."
I would take a 3-5 yr CADD Drafter, for both capabilities and knowledge, over a new EIT...so that bill ratio is about correct.
DaveVikingPE (Structural)"The money in engineering isn't in the actual engineering work, it's in bringing in the work."
True of any venture, not just engineering, no arguements with that.
Remember, amateurs built the ark...professionals built the Titanic. -Steve
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I graduated in Austrlaia and jumped onto a base salary of around 40 000 AUD (30 000 USD) but within 4 years I was on around 55 000 AUD (40 000 USD) That was with the government and a 36 hour week.....
I then moved to ireland and jumped onto a 50 000 Euro Base salary. (65 000 USD)............
But now in the 2 years I have left in austrlia you can ask for around 80-100 000 AUD (55-75 000 USD) if you have around 5 years exp......
But we all know the best way to get a pay rise is to change companies....
Any one else???
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Wunderjah, I'll play;
With an MS in Civil and and EIT my first job in Salt Lake City, UT (USA) paid ~32,000 USD. My next company in Montana, 1 year experience, paid 35,000 as a "Staff Engineer", 45 hr week. With 3 to 4 yrs. experience my next company in North Carolina paid 45,000 as a "Project Manager", 50-60 hour week.
Now, California PE, "Project Engineer", 5-6 yrs total experience, 68,000 USD in San Francisco Bay Area. This is actually a pay cut due to the cost of living in the Bay Area.
Anyone else?
Jefferys
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I would like to point out that you missed a piece of the comparison.
God designed the ark.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Sorry about the tangent.
I have to cast my lot with the lack of $$$ for the paucity of civils around as the primary cause.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I was designing timber frames for a very hot market and they were billing my work out at $90CDN/hour yet they were only paying me about a 1/4 of that in wage. I decided to break out on my own and start my own design business but soon realized how much extra work was needed as a business that gets worked into that labour rate.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
In PA, USA; Senior Engineer, 10 years experience, PE, USD70-75k with OT & bonuses, about 45 hrs/week.
Ashereng:
I have editted my signature accordingly.
looksatstars & francesca:
Here in PA, USA:
At my current job, the multiplier is 3.33.
At my last job, it was 4.
At my previous job, it was 3.5.
Remember, amateurs designed and built the ark...professionals designed and built the Titanic. - Steve
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
LOL. I see. God is now an amateur. Hmmm....
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
if you follow your line of thought too far then it would seem that God was ultimately responsible for the design of both the Titanic and the Ark. Let's assume that He/She does not take detailed involvement in any shipbuilding decisions, be it large steel cruise liners or wooden two-by-two class animal transporting vessels.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
So if we all agree that our salaries are limited by some multiplier, than the problem must lie in the market value for our services. If we are all as busy as we seem to be because of the shortage, why aren't we raising our fees? Something to ask your firm leaders.
Hasn't produced any results at my firm, better luck to you.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
This thread was somewhat troubling to read as a future EIT in a year. With my degree and qualifications I expect I'll start out somewhere in the 45-60k range (thats where my friends with similar credentials are starting).
I am more concerned about the earning potential in civil engineering. I was hoping some of the more seasoned civil engineers could give me a picture.
I plan on going back and getting my MBA in a few years and going into project management. If I did this, at a large firm in Texas (100+ employees), how much could I expect to be earning in 10-15 years? Can anyone give me a ballpark? I guess, where would the ceiling be?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
If you are worried about making a lot of money, I would suggest something other than engineering.
Having said that, one can make a lot of money doing just about anything. If you are amongst the best in your craft, the money will be there.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
How much money would be enough for us to consider engineers "well-paid"? Is USD80k sufficiently well-paid? USD100k? USD200k? It just doesn't make sense.
When you compare the amount of schooling, licensure and work hours required of teachers, social workers, nurses, soldiers, police officers, engineers, etc., to their respective salaries, I feel we are pretty well-off.
Women and cats will do as they please; men and dogs should just learn to live with that - Steve
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
The store is always packed, from at least 6AM to 6PM. At $4 a pop for a grande something or another, it's a "black gold" mine worthy of taking over that moniker from crude oil!
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
You are underpaid. But at this point, stick around long enough to get your references for the PE next year, take it and pass it. Then you TELL them you what you want (don't ask), or you can go out and get it. That's what I did, it worked like a charm. If you quit now, and those 2 PEs are mad and won't vouch for you, you will have to start your 4 years over.
Women and cats will do as they please; men and dogs should just learn to live with that - Steve
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I don't know what part of Texas you live in, but here in Austin, we are having a bidding war for qualified EITs with firms paying off the Temporary Agencies and offering 3 weeeks pay vaction to start. Experienced Design techs are being paid in the $20 to $25 range! I would have a hard time believing a qualified EIT would work for half price, unless they are working in the family business.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
The UK Institution of civil Engineers (ICE) created an apparent shortage of Engineers in UK when they closed the route to professional membership for technicians. The intention was to level upwards but the opposite of dumping down was achieved. The result in UK is that Engineers spend most of their time working as unqualified (and inapt) secretaries and filing clerks and are paid accordingly. The Labour government, under Tony Blair, have more recently adopted the same policy with an objective of giving 50% of the population worthless university degrees.
When I started in civil engineering in the mid 60s, there was a structured profession with draftsmen, technicians, trainee engineers and chartered engineers (professional engineers) at the pinnacle. Engineers were highly qualified, had responsibility and in turn enjoyed respect and salaries competitive with other professions. Projects were designed and implemented by expert qualified technicians working under the supervision of engineers.
At this moment I am looking around my office: there are 4 senior engineers working for me (age above 40), no technicians no support staff. – I am filling my time on the internet; one is ordering office furniture; one is writing the monthly report; one is preparing a bill of quantities. Forty years ago, as a junior technician, I would have done all of these tasks (except play on the internet)in addition to my technician duties.
In 40 years working in 15 different countries I have never seen a shortage of civil engineers – I see a shortage of technicians, secretaries and support staff. I see engineers replacing technicians and engineers working as incompetent secretaries and typists. I see engineers getting paid salaries that are too low for their professional abilities but far too high for their actual job profiles: I see grossly inefficient organisation structures with engineers operating photocopy machines, binding documents and organising office furniture. The reason being is that engineers are cheap and relatively versitile, albeit ineffecient. In UK the blame rests squarely with the ICE
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
The company I worked for in London had a good mix of engineers, technicians and environmentalists. Technical staff did their own typing because they were proficient at typing and it was easier to type than to write. They were involved in project management, but photocopying and filing tasks were delegated to admin staff and junior engineers, respectively. The engineers where constantly busy with techinical work and the company was highly profitable. Perhaps it's easier to achieve in a large company with dedicated admin staff, but there certainly was no meddling in company structure by the ICE.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I have worked for a large number of leading consultants in UK and the majority of junior and many senior engineers are doing jobs that should be done by technicians and secretaries. Technical staff do their own typing because they have time to do it and they are cheap. Dictaphones, notes and well trained secretaries and support staff will produce far more efficiently. Support staff are much better qualified than they were 30 years ago yet they do far less. Typing is an easy way for enginers to fill in their day.
Few consultants in Europe are profitable, for most companies better returns would be achieved by investing in stocks. The problem is that a large percentage of the civil engineering business is infrastructure work under various forms of public or international donor funding and usually this work has to be bid for under competitive bidding. Although two envelope procedures of technical and financial bidding are common it is amazing how often the lowest priced tender appears to win. Consultant firms in 2006 we are bidding with charge rates that are lower than 10 years ago. If I could reduce costs by providing a structured team of engineers and technicians then I would do so but I can’t find any technicians, even if I could find technicians in the technical evaluation of bids a CV with a Phd will score higher marks than a technician even though the technicians experince is more appropriate. The whole process of bidding is a major overhead, potential markets have to be identified, expressions of interest prepared and submitted, proposals prepared. Typically proposals are invited from 6 companies which means that 80% of the effort is aborted work that is paid for from overheads. With typically 20% to 30% of staff working on business development and Proposals and 80% of their effort aborted, junior engineers doing photocopying and filing, it is easy to see where all the engineers are and why there is no money.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
another factor is the salary and corporate profile. when i first have my job as civil engineer (ports and harbor), i noticed that it would take me decades to step up in the corporate ladder,.. and the promotions and salary increases are moving like snail compared to the magnitude of the work at hand (field survey, data, design, draft sketches, specs., meetings).
i decided to change jobs., i went to oil and gas (offshore projects) which even as a technician, i earn more than being a civil engineer, then i moved back to civil engineering after few years, only to find the same situation. i changed jobs again as structural detailer (better pay) and finally i am working in structural design, detailing and fabrication (mining industry) which is much better than my previous civil engineering jobs.
see, there are civil engineers, qualified civil engineers are not interested with how they are treated in the industry. they cant have the prestige that architects get, or the salaries that a technician can get.
(- from japan)
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Therefore we can be catalogued as elite engineers. This is the french model of engineering in opposition to the anglosaxon model (less years at the university).
Anyway, 20 years ago and more, being Ingeniero de Caminos was a synomim of being well paid and seen as part of the country's elite.
Not anymore today (although you can still find civil engineers at top of our society).
Only those of my colleagues which change to economics (studying and MBA) or the ones who work at site in big construction companies do still continue to have good salaries.
The era of engineers is becoming the era of the economists. At least in my country and this may apply to the rest of the world. Engineers are part of the production chain and are not leading it anymore.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Also, with the introduction of birth control the population has taken a hit. Hence reducing the overall population.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Apart from the money issues that go along with our profession, one question still remains, why do most of us (civils) still do it? I can think of several good answers.
I think the problem also lies with the institutions that produce us engineers. I think that most universities are more worried about their numbers and the quality slides. The academic staff then become bored and fustrated with this state of affairs and this does not encourage the students - the result is that many students change direction and end up in the IT or business sectors.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I expect that very soon India and China will have a shortage of Civil Engineers and that this will help your salary to rise. However I don't think that you should compare your salary against Civil Engineers from different countries (living costs, taxes etc are widely different between the east and west)but you should compare against other professions in your own country such as doctors lawyers etc.
I have worked in many countries - currently Malaysia - and I can assure you that as countries develop there is a high demand for Civil Engineers that often cannot be met from the education establishments within the country.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
The Interstate system is officially 50 years old. That makes most of it in need of improvement or rebuilding.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Don't know where you have been in Malaysia, but you should check out the colleges if you go there again.
You can get more or less the same education in the third world for a tenth of what you paid for yours. Believe me, there are plenty of engineers in the third world.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Hate to burst your ballon, but there is no money in environmental work. Right now, the environmental field is a career dead end.
In addition, have you ever heard the statement made that no matter how much of the interstate highway system is completed, it takes the same amount of funds that was previously spent to complete the remaining sections.
The interstate highway system is an ongoing project and has not ended.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I have heard souther Ontario to be a hot bed of environmental work. I have class mates who are doing very well right now in that area.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I think you misunderstood my comments. I do not doubt the quality of the educational establishments in Malaysia, I am working with very good Malaysian engineers. My point is that as countries economies grow there is often a shortage of engineers not due to the quality, but rather the quantity of educational establishments.
Your comments regarding the Malaysia are incorrect as it is not a third world economy. Malaysia is a rapidly developing country with a strong economy and good infrastructure.
If you read the local papers in Malaysia you will see that Malaysia is expanding overseas and companies have work in India, Dubai, Qatar - to name a few. There is becoming a shortage of engineers. I believe the same will be true in India and China, this has already been experienced in Thailand and Singapore.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
Don't think I misunderstood anything. Who said anything about quality? I just said you can get an equal education in most of these countries for just a tenth of what you paid for yours.
And I don't make up definitions such as "third world". Malaysia, Indonesia, Thailand, except for their big cities, their maquiladora-type production facilities, a small middle class and a much smaller ruling elite should be considered Third World countries as well, since their populations are overwhelmingly rural, agrarian and poor.
For the most part these countries are turning out an excess of college graduates and flooding the market. Many of the workers are forced to go to other countries as "guest workers" if they want to be employed.
It is just Economics 101. Ask yourself what happens to wages when the supply of workers exceeds the demand.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
think we have wandered off-topic on this.
Do you really think Indonesia, Malaysia and Thailand have similar economies? It's like comparing Germany, Hungary and Romania - just because they're close together doesn't automatically mean that the economies are similar.
By the way I didn't know what maquiladora meant. I looked it up on the internet and I think you have chosen the wrong word. The economies you have chosen as your examples are different from each other and the internal demand for goods varies much between say Thailand and Indonesia.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I actually posted "maquiladora-type" as these production facilitys are similiar to maquiladora. A maquiladora (or maquila) is a factory, that imports materials and equipment on a duty-free and tariff-free basis for assembly or manufacturing and then re-exports the assembled product usually back to the originating country.
Economy Indonesia
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$3,700 (2005 est.)
Thailand
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$8,300 (2005 est.)
Malaysia
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$10,400 (2005 est.)
Germany
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$29,800 (2005 est.)
Hungary
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$16,100 (2005 est.)
Romania
GDP - per capita (PPP):
$8,400 (2005 est.)
The bottom line is that there are numerous engineers and other college graduates in these countries. Many of them are underemployed. What is lacking is capital.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I was born, raised, educated and started my career in a third world country. When I started out, the company had just finished laying off half their staff because the boom of an Olympic bid turned to a bust in the aftermath of not getting the project. People were fired on a last in-first out basis, except for the few who had been supported by the company through college and were now repaying their bursaries. Later, bursary students were relieved of their obligations. This situation was not unique to my company. One of my top-performing class-mates was unemployed for three months after graduating, not for lack of trying.
The situation has reversed now, as more and more professionals move to Australia, New Zealand, England and the US, leaving behind the legacy of crime left to us by the poor minority government that chose torture and propaganda over education and services for the majority. Brain drain has caused a shortage of technical professionals, far more so than the growing economy.
When I did work back home, I was given far more responsibility than in the UK and to an extent in the US too. The analogy described to me is this: in a third world country, a 25 mile road construction project will have one resident engineer. In the UK it'll have one resident engineer per mile.
Professionals are underutilized in the UK and also in the US. What third world engineer does his own drafting? The company I'm working for this summer is a small office of a large company. They have two transportation engineers and not a single technician. They're looking to hire a graduate engineer, presumably because they need someone to do their CAD.
I don't know about you, but I didn't do all that calculus to draw pretty lines in CAD. I learned how to solve problems and find answers so that I could sweat the big stuff and pass on the little stuff to others.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
I am sure that it probably feels like there are inspectors every mile on your projects.
However, because labor is so cheap in the rest of the world, you are going to have many more people working on a project in developing countries.
For example, a fertilizer plant located in UK has 600 employees. Same fertilizer plant in Mexico has 2,400 employees.
Another example. I recall seeing armed guards at many facilities and buildings. The armed guards are not there because of high crime rates; the guards are there because you can hire them for almost nothing.
RE: Where Did All the Civil Engineers Go?
But there's still hope. In my country, there are many people that study this. I'm from Dominican Republic.