Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
(OP)
If recently read in one source to specify the shank diameter and length of a nail so as to get the Z value you think you are. This is supposed to be due to the fact that "air gun" nails are not the same as "common" nails. Another source, talking about diaphragm shear values, said to go ahead and take a reduction for the smaller value of "air gun" nail instead of the "common" nail assumed in the IBC shear tables.
I am slightly incredulous that the typical air gun is incapable of accepting a "common" nail. Is this true or is this an urban legend?
The IBC nailing schedule is based on "common" or "box" nails. The structural panel shear wall and diaphragm shear tables are based on "common" nails. Simpson hardware is based on "common" nails (or 1-1/2" nails). Why would any air gun or nail manufacturer try to or need to deviate from a "common" nail?
Any input on this issue would be appreciated.
I am slightly incredulous that the typical air gun is incapable of accepting a "common" nail. Is this true or is this an urban legend?
The IBC nailing schedule is based on "common" or "box" nails. The structural panel shear wall and diaphragm shear tables are based on "common" nails. Simpson hardware is based on "common" nails (or 1-1/2" nails). Why would any air gun or nail manufacturer try to or need to deviate from a "common" nail?
Any input on this issue would be appreciated.






RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
Go to similar thread in wood framing section. There is an ICC report for nail gun nails with design values for shear panels.
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
http://ww
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
rmw
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
It is discouraging to think that one must "adjust" all nail values given in either Simpson or the IBC to possibly account for using sinker nails in lieu of common nails. I have also seen many overdriven nails in both sheathing and metal connectors.
Incorrect nail selection and nail installation is something that results from poor framing inspections and a general lack of expertise of many framers/wood butchers. The poor practices are "reinforced" (behaviorly) as these guys do it incorrectly for longer and longer. On the contrary, is specifying a "common" nail incorrect on the engineer's part? When is common uncommon?
It never ceases to amaze me that upon flying in a W27x84 beam on a crane, the contractor justs looks at it as if it were voodoo black magic how to design a steel beam. Show most anything, engineered properly, in wood however, and you get nothing but grief and "expert" opinions about how it is wrong. Any framer with a pickup truck and a dog knows more about structural engineering than I ever will.
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
maybe you all should work in the field before you start to criticize any ones work
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
framermike: it's obvious that many framers have never calculated the required number of nails in a connection or the correct member size. Maybe they should work in an office and accept liability for a design before they criticize the engineers design.
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
I work with some very good structural engineers and they all know how gun nails work and are very familiar with them maybe you all should do some research
http://www
here is a link to a nail manufacturer of gun nails you will see a link to a Simpson chart on allowable nails for there product
and you will also see a chart with all gun nail sizes
nail guns are not going away get with the program
and a 16 common nail is a joke you cant nail two 2x4 together with them they stick out the side 1/2 and split every thing to hell
and don't give me the pree drill line if every house had pree drilled nail holes the cost would double
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
In 1968 when I was 7 years old I would go to work with my Dad, mainly cleaning the job site and carrying material around. In 1979 I was working for my Dad as a carpenter. After 18 years of working as a carpenter for a living (28 years plus total), I feel I have plenty of experience to criticize a framers work. I have been working for an Engineer now for nearly 10 years now. You may be right in saying that an Engineers don't know how they work, I will go further than that and say most Engineers should not go out and get a nail gun a start using one. They are by all means very dangerous tools, but you obviously have no idea on what Engineers have to do to calculate for there use and YES, they do know how to calculate for using nails from a nail gun.
One of the reasons I had to get out of construction was it was not fun any more. I mean when you have some punk ass kids that will help a framer frame a couple of houses, go in to business for them self and all of a sudden in a manner of 3 to 4 months they know everything about framing. I mean there is just nothing more for them to learn. By your comments on this post you are striking me as one of those people. You seam to know more about Engineering than the Engineers do. Those type of framers started doing things wrong 15 years ago and now it has become typical framing procedures and you still doing things wrong. It is no wonder that cities are now requiring Engineering on even the simplest framing jobs. We get calls all the time where builders ask for a fix to a problem and there framer meets us on the job and says that he has a engineer that will sign off on it. Two weeks later the builder is calling us with a new framing crew asking for a fix to the problem. I have to ask were is the framers Engineer? It is that there was never one or his Engineer would not sign off either. It just don't seam that you understand that Engineers are held responsible for there jobs. When framer does poor workman ship. The Engineer will be called to the job for a fix, Not the framer. Every thing they do is regulated by CODES. If something goes wrong the Engineer is held liable not the framer. I have seen this a few time and every time there is a lawyer hiding in the shadows foaming at the mouth just looking for a way to sue an Engineer. Lawyers are not trying to sue the framers.
From my construction experience I do feel that some things are over engineered to a point of being ridicules but as I have said before, the codes make the engineer do it that way and you really do not wont to do if different. I can also say also say that that 10 years ago, before going to work for the Engineer I work for, I use to think that engineers were the most over educated yet ignorant people in construction. Now that I have worked for one and can see why they have to do, I have change my mind, I found a new respect for Engineers. With the responsibility that they carry I some time think that some things need more Engineering than they get.
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
I'm not to good at making my point typing thing out
on an on line forum
what I wanted to say is we use nail guns every framer uses them
and 95% of the engineers I work with calc for them
so if any of you are not calcing for gun nails you should
because thats what your going to get no mater what you have on the plans
OkieDokie
did you had drive common 16 or did you have sinkers or a gun
and the punk kid remark
engineering has the same problems new kids just out of college with no piratical experience sounds to me you all just want to bash framers and not work to get thing right
the engineer is not the only one with liability
so if you think I'm a punk kid with no experience carry on
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
this really is a problem that should have been addressed when nail guns were first being developed.
having worked as a framer for several years, i can also say that there is a generally poor attitude in the field concerning doing things right. too often framers get too comfortable in doing things a certain way because "this is the way i've always done it".
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
I agree that engineers should be accounting for the fact that gun nails are going to be used. It's a little confusing because there's a wide variety in nail length and diameter.
It's not my intent to get into a battle with you, sometimes it is difficult to get a point across in an online forum.
I have the info for Simpson and USP regarding the use of gun nails and their products. Without taking a reduction in capacity (for the most part), they allow gun nails shorter than the "commons" but having the same diameter. For example, gun nail 10dcommon=2 1/2" x0.148, and something similar for 16d nails. Some confusion can happen because the gun nail mfr's make a bunch of different nails that are 2 1/2" long but have different diameters.
It would be nice if all concerned parties could come together and agree on some standard nail sizes, and if this was reflected in the codes. The IBC 2000 has charts for diaphragms and shear walls that are based on common for diaphragms and common or box for shearwalls.
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
if you follow the link to the Halsteel sight they have a chart with color coded nails with all the shank and length on it
airnail has a similar chart you could just copy it in you plans and spec out the proper color or size you need that woul be the best from a framers side
you are all right on the fact that the proper nail needs to be used but some times a improper nail is called for that may be the right one for the calculations but is very impractical on the job sight
and to let you all know the standard nail gun can shoot all common nails except the 16 common it is to long for a standard gun
and the 16 common is probably the only nail you will get an argument about from a good framer
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails
RE: Common Nails Vs Air Gun Nails