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How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?
18

How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

(OP)

I am trying something new this year at work.  I've decided to keep track of my productive time at work.  I made a spreadsheet that keeps track of what I do and whether or not it's productive time or non-productive time.  If you haven't tried this, I highly recommend it.  You'd be shocked to see how much time is taken up by doing non-work related things during the day.  I'm not just talking about social and slack off time.  I was suprised to see how much time is spent on bathroom trips, snack and beverage runs, and the like.  I have been aiming to average 70% of my time towards productive work time.  It's actually a bit harder to do than I had expected.  I thought it would be easy to get that number, but a little time talking here, some time on the internet there, it all adds up ... and quick.

So basically I was just curious with everyone else.  Have you tried this?  How much time do you spend working and how much time do you spend doing other ... extracurricular activities?

Brad

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

(OP)

Thanks SlideRuleEra, I read that post.  It was exactly what I was looking for.

Anyone want to post their numbers anyways, go for it.  I'd love to hear it.  It might make for a good thread again even though it's been done before.

Brad

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

6
I think we are missing the point. How much time do you spend in a day doing productive work measures effort. What I think you should be looking for is results.

The question should not be how much time you are spending on doing productive work. Instead, the question should be how much time does it take to produce a result.

Worker A spends 4 hours and produce 10 units of work. Worker B spends 8 hours and produce 10 units of work. Too many managers miss the point and tell worker A to get back to work. The result? Worker A is dissatisfied.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

5
I suspect that they teach the tactic of actually measuring your own work effort|output|whatever in business school, because every new MBA- clad manager I've ever had to break dow... er, in, demanded it within his first week.

The claimed percentages in the referenced thread are obviously eyeball estimates, colored by self- perception.

One time, I did actually meaure the time that I, nominally an engineer, spent doing actual engineering work, recorded meticulously with a resolution of tens of minutes or better, averaged over a number of weeks.  The average time spent doing actual engineering work, in a week?  

Two hours.

The point of the exercise is to induce you to measure precisely that you're not as productive as you think you are.  The MBA will then assert without proof that it's your fault, which is sort of the heart of the trick.

Of course you'e not productive; you're wasting your time in endless meetings with idiot MBAs, and running stupid errands for them, and fighting myriad stupid battles with minor functionaries who are nominally present to help you, but actually only present obstacles.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

And the spreadsheet recorder is considered productive or non-productive time?
I ask this because with that ammount of detail, it should take some time to fill it up.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

As the lead character in the movie "Office space" states to the productivity consultants, "In any given week, I'd say I work about 15 minutes"....nuff said.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

ziggi,

That was also in the orginal thread.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

It applies then :)

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

Well, I did it on a paper spreadsheet, before computer spreadsheets were available, and duly accounted for the time consumed by that pointless activity.  And every other pointless activity to wihch I was involuntarily committed.

Surely the exercise was intended to point out to me how much of my time I myself wasted.  It did.  It also pointed out to me that much more of my time was wasted by others.

So, when the MBA asked if the exercise had been educational, I gave him an education.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

This is an interesting thread. As a permanent employee at an airline, I'm constantly involved managing configurations on systems in a perpetual evolutionary cycle.

I see project work and reaction work. Project work generally adds value.

Some reaction work adds value if it addresses an issue permanently. Some is no value added when it addresses an issue to allow release of a single aircraft without addressing underlying issues. Sometimes you have no choice, but it kills your productivity.

In addition to coffee and courtyard time, I started tracking project vs reaction time.

Sometimes the deadlines and reaction stuff really jam my thinking up too. I just need a break to get productive again.

-A war story-

One day, with a previous employer I was working on the drawing package to upgrade a weather radar system for one of our fleets.

I got a call from line maintenance about another system. They needed authorization to back out a mod and install an older but still legal computer, because of a parts shortage.

The passengers were on the plane having drinks, the computer failed on preflight.

Could I stop what I was doing to cut an authorization with return to service procedures and get it to them.

It’s not really rocket science, and it was airworthy and legal. I gave them the document number and dictated the procedures.

They signed the release with the number. I faxed them the document so they would have a released copy to cover their butts if an inspector called them out on it. The whole thing probably took 30 minutes (including signatures).

It was an MD11, they went out with less than an hour delay. I probably didn’t get another productive thing done that day. I just couldn’t get over the mental picture of those people sitting on the plane while I was working my ass off to write that foolish document.

It was necessary to issue paper to ensure that the ship would be re-modified later. It was a regulatory requirement, but we still had time before the due date.

If the organization has evolved into a huge resource wasting machine, there is almost no point in being 100% efficient. That former employer is in bankruptcy now.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

Nice comments Mike!
Of course, the real answer is that however the time breaks down, I spend to much time at work.
This is, of course, a congenital disorder in most engineers; the actual work is so interesting they don't mind the extra hours it takes to get done.

I didn't note that your spreadhseet calls for you to extend this excercise to your entire day so you could include travel time etc. nor, I suppose, do they really care to know about those extra hours at the office they don't pay you for.

If I am objective (and if I am not, my wife is), I spend altogether too much time "working". Even when driving the car I am thinking about some problem or other and how to solve it.

Fag Breaks, coffee breaks and those "socialising" moments by the coffeee machine or the notice board are also actually a vital part of the work environment. These are often the oil that helps the "machine" run smoothly. Take them out and, assuming there is no strike, see how productive the workers are (if you can illiminate the "bolshy" response from the test)

In fact, in the early days of the cotton mills and before "Working Time Directives" or parliamentary legislation about working hours, a mill owner did his own study of his workers hours. He decided unilaterally (i.e. bfore the governement actually legislated) to cut the working hours down to about 12 a day (can't remember the details, someone will remind me who it was and what the actual details were).
The result?
Productivity went up.

In any excercise like this you need to ask if the right things, all the right things and nothing but the right things are being measured and why. Then ask what do the results tell you?

Do you get to compare to your managers time sheets? Boy, that would be illuminating. You results are meaningless in isolation.

As Ashereng says, it is results that count. How do they measure that?

PS a curious management blind spot, the notice board. You can spend all day there and they can't complain: they put it up and they fill it with dumb notices and charts so hw can they then criticise you for reading them?  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

A senior director that I once had the luck to work with on a very touchy project told me, and I paraphrase:

People measure effort when they can't measure results. When someone complains of the lack of effor on your part (this was a really acrimonious project relationship), you know you've won because they don't know what you are doing, and don't know what you should be doing.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

Ashereng:
Star for you.  I love that quote.
We have been getting reprimanded for leaving after eight hours...or more.  Perception is key here...

Of course, you can spend more time here...but are you being productive?  


RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

(OP)
It's been a half a year since I started this little self improvement project of mine.  I just wanted to share my results thus far.

My half year average work time percentage is ....

Drum roll please .....

53%

This is much lower than I had hoped it would be but like I said, the time you don't spend working can add up ... and quick.

I re-read a lot of everyone's responses in this thread while I was at it and I still stand by my reasons to increase and measure my work time efforts.

I agree that productivity is key and results are the real measure of success.  The big problem here is that you really can't measure results with numbers.

However, if you could use numbers, I think the equation would work out like this:

work efficiency = results / time spent working

rearranging the formula brings ....

results = time spent working x work efficiency

So .....

If you spend more time working then you will get more results.  Yes, I agree that work efficiency is equally (or even MORE) important, but it doesn't mean you should sit around doing nothing if you happen to be good an efficient worker.

To be successful and maximize your results you should concentrate on improving BOTH factors in the equation to maximize your results.

If engineer "A" can finish a task in 4 hours and engineer "B" needs 8 hours to do it, it doesn't necessarily mean that engineer "A" should sit around and scratch his butt for 4 hours.

If you were in a race and you were twice as fast as the competition, would you sit around and wait for everyone to catch up to you at each mile marker?  or would you keep running and blow away the competition?

That's my 2 cents and opinion and I'm sticking to it.


smile

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

I think 53% is a very honest number.

To keep in mind though, individual performance is not too critical in an average engineering office.  You have super-stars and grunts in the office.  In terms of salary, probably not too different.

One can take half the time to do a same task but very likely that he won't be paid double.  At the end of the day, what matters is the overall performance as a team.

I can't say it is fair... but I can say it is real.

Happy Independence Day.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

I agree.

If one person is done one part, but the other parts are not done, no net benefit. Critical path theory thingy.

However, if one person continuously finish ahead of the others, the others may take offense at being "shown up".

The train goes as fast as the slowest wheel.

Might as  well get along with all the wheels.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."   
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

I think it's a good tool that brad points out.  It is not the only relevant parameter as others are quick to point out a useful tool to capture a part of the picture.

It's not too much different than recording how much money you spend on various items when you are trying to get control of your finances.

=====================================
Eng-tips forums: The best place on the web for engineering discussions.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

(OP)

Quote:

However, if one person continuously finish ahead of the others, the others may take offense at being "shown up".

The train goes as fast as the slowest wheel.

Might as  well get along with all the wheels.

I am sometimes the one to be the slower wheel.  It usually inspires me or pressures me to keep up.  I don't get angry that I'm being shown up.  I just work harder to meet the same level of productivity as my peers.  I think being the most productive you can is the best way to speed the whole team up.  I think instead of slowing down to meet the pace of your teamates, you should set the tone and example and hopefully inspire others to work at their maximum capicity.

That would benefit the team much better.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

To comment on Ashereng post,

One thing I learned in the Boy Scouts was when a group was out hiking, you always put the slowest and weakest in the front of the group.  This way the stronger and faster people could be encouraging them the whole way.  It was also to keep the group from being seperated.

I see this alot in my business too.  Usually good leaders will call on the weaker people to answer questions to encourage them and help them learn and make them feel needed.

Critical path theory usually works the opposite of this though.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

2
In answer to the title of this thread:

A lot less since I found this forum!

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

had been on vacation for the last 2 weeks... no phone, no email, it was wonderful... anyway I think that yesterday I spent about 7 minutes of the 11 hours i was here doing actual work.

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

3
I give a 100% at Work!!
 Mo=12%
 Tue=23%
 Wed=40%
 Th=20%
 Fr=5%
           Total = 100%!!

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

hehehe

good point there l3city

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

A great quote from one of the older guys in our workshops.  A senior manager who had just taken over the maintenance department was doing her introductory rounds.  She walked into this guys workshop where he was sat playing Solitaire on his PC.  Not wanting to make a fuss she just introduced herself and asked "So what do you do here?" to which our technician replied "As little as possible".

Can't fault the guys honesty.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

A recent CBS 60 Minutes said it all:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/31/60minutes/main1460246.shtml

"Americans work longer hours than nearly anyone in the developed world, even the Japanese."

and a little later in the broadcast . . .

". . . it may surprise you to learn that when it comes to productivity, the U.S. is not No. 1. In fact, workers in four European countries, including France, are more productive per hour of work than Americans . . . even though the Europeans work less and take more vacation."

Put these facts together, and you can only come to the conclusion that working in America is highly inefficient, and we work longer to make up for the inefficiency. I know that in my own work doing design, the reporting functions are emphasized more than the actual design and technical functions.

Paper over Product!

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

What keeps your job safe is that other businesses are not any more efficient!

Cheers!

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

See the example earlier of the mill owner....
It adds up to the fact that it is not the time spent but the results delivered.
Note that there are hourly paid workers and salaried staff... why the difference? because how they work and what they do are measured differently.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

Never calculated my percentage as such, but I suspect it's reasonably low.

The stats about productivity are interesting, I work with Japanese colleagues regularly and have acquaintances who work in the States. It strikes me that long hours and managerial perceptions of putting hours in are a big problem.

This whole culture ignores fundamental human issues of relationships, personal motivation, etc. Yes a company's primary role is to provide a ROI for the shareholders but as far as personal motivation goes, this is about the least likely reason for an individual to come to work.

The whole economy is therefore based on conflicting motivations. I am lucky enough to be in a reasonably creative role (motorsport sector) where my long terms results are assessed rather than my hourly productivity.

Many companies allow staff a much more free working environment and many of them don't suffer as a result.

How many of you have your best flashes of inspiration on the toilet or walking in spectacular scenery - I know I have. More holiday time needed? We get 25 days per year plus national holidays (about six) per year. What's the average holiday allowance in the US these days?

Ben

Senior Design Analyst
Dunlop Tyres
Motorsport Division

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

Typically companies (engineering or otherwise) provide between 8 to 12 paid holidays.  Vacation days typically start at 10 days a year and as you accumulate seniority, gets up to around 21 days.  Sick leaves can range from one week a year to one day per month.  Some companies combine vacation and sick leaves as a PTO (paid time off).  These are typical, from my observation, in the western United States.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

That is crazy. I knew it was bad - but that's less days than I thought. I accept that it's a cultural thing (as it is in Japan) but if managers honestly think it's the best way to get the best out of people they're mad.

Ben

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

On what planet is madness not a job requirement for managers?  winky smile

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

Having gone from the UK to the US (CA) I've got to say employment conditions in general don't seem as good.

And remember the UK was kind of low for European standards and CA is fairly good by US standards.

They say a lot about the pay being higher but that's difficult to really calculate with the exchange rate, different tax systems, cost of living etc.

I get 10 days 'earned' vacation per year rather than the 25 day bank at my last place in the UK.

Also both here and the UK I have/had to take one week off at a date determined by the employer for factory shut down.

In fairness though I think I now get about 1 extra public holiday woo hoo.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

I had to do this for a job I had in college. We had to bill time we worked on each project.

The old guy I worked with complained about how long it took to track stuff. Certainly it took a bit of time.

Unfortunately for me the axe came because there wasn't enough work for the two of us. I was probably too honest at the time about the number of hours I spent on a project and maybe even estimated low.

During one meeting he told me to pay my salary he had to see about 3.5 hours billable work to a project. Some days I got it, but apparently not enough.

That sucked.

Now I kind of do it to see the areas I work on, but rarely track the time. I'm going to again soon to see how efficient I can be.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

It depends how much work we have laying around.  Right now we are extremely low on work.  So maybe 3-4 hours a day at most.  Anyone in my department who has more work to do than that is one heck of a milker.  When we are busy my boss is all over us and I am so engrossed in my work that I forget I had to go to the bathroom an hour earlier.

I am in the US but work for a Japanese company.  Our couterparts in Japan work 12-16 hour days pretty consistantly.  And when they go home they still get up in the middle of the night to check their email ;)

But is if wasn't for the inefficiencies, of what seems to be every compnay I have worked for, I would only have to work one day a week even if we have plenty of work ;)  Some of the managers here like to have me change stuff just because they can not because it is better.  I get tired of arguing with them.  They want a square tire?  no problem ;)  thats what us engineers do ;)  gives me something to do other than post here :)

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

For reasons outside my control, I was late on producing some of the deliverables on my current project. I have spent so much time over the last 2 weeks explaining to various folks up the management tree the reasons why I haven't been able to deliver that I haven't had time to work on the project and I'm struggling to meet the revised due date.

Does sitting in a meeting room while an ineffective manager tries to deliver an a**-kicking count as time working?!

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

kchayfie, feel your pain.  One of our major projects is way behind schedule.  I'm only involved in the peripherals and my departments work is more or less on schedule.  

None the less we get to spend hours each week tracking our progress, communicating our progress to other departments, creating presentations to show our progress...  Every couple of weeks the the director decides he's not happy with the format we're providing the information in so we get to spend hours re formatting the reports & presentations etc.

If we'd just been allowed to get on with it we'd probably be all but finished with our part of the project by now.

I'm all for keeping track of where you are so you know if there are problems and/or you're on schedule but when it comes at the expense of actually doing the work it misses the point somewhat.

So if I subtract the time I spend supporting the tracking efforts each week I lose between 5 & 10 hours a week.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

KENAT:  sounds like you should make "progress-tracking activities" one of the items you track.  Maybe it'll show them something.

Hg

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RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

We discussed doing that but decided it wouldn't work out well for us to point out what a waste of time the level of progress tracking we were doing was.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

I've never done the stopwatch thing, but I have an observation.  I worked in a design office for 9 years and was "at work" for an average of around 11 hours/day M-T and 8-9 hours on Friday.  More often than not, I was mad or frustrated, but usually not very tired when I left work.

I'm in a different situation now.  The days that I sit and WORK (no BSing, no personal e-mail, no internet, etc.), I am very tired after 7-8 hours.  I can push it to 9-10, but it's very hard and I can't keep it up very long.  

Maybe I'm a wimp, but I really think most people have a REAL WORK limit far below the number of hours that they're "at work."  

Back in my old office, I'd guess that the better employees probably worked 5 real hours/day.  Most folks I know probably worked no more than 4 real hours/day.  The time lost to personal calls, the coffee machine, smoke breaks, personal e-mails, internet, talking to co-workers, etc., is absolutely staggering.

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

I used to work about 6hr/8hr day and be productive.

Then the IT department started blocking everything I do, Including work related items...I told them they were cutting into my work but they didnt belive me. but its annoying that I need to call IT to get every particular web page that i need related to a topic like...example: "Design of Cold-Formed Steel."

so now I am even less productive around 4hr/8hr day...of actual work...

...those silly people with great ideas

Because of them limiting me on what I can do on the internet... I found this web page is one that actually works and started doing even less...

RE: How much time do spend at work ... you know ... working?

i believe it depends on management. I'm currently in school as an undergrad, but last year, i ran the drafting department at a company.

For maybe 80% of my time there, the company had a very screwed up chain of management.  There was the CEO, then the 20 empolyees he has in the company directly under him.  Im shameful to say there were times where i've waisted 90% of the work day... and even got high on a daily basis during lunch with co-workers lol. Good Times.

For a small period, there was a production manager that was hired and he was a hell of a manager. As a 20 year old at the time, i've never liked working so much. I put all my efforts into the finest details and was extremely proud of the products i've designed and the wiring schematics i've come up with.  Everything was so organized, there was always something for me to do next after one task was complete.  Oh, and i was always given a "nice job" after every completed project. That really gave me the drive to want to spend time on improvising on the design and doing something productive.

Being the nutcase boss the owner of the company was, the production manager couldn't stand it and pulled the old goto lunch and not come back process, even though he gave his good byes and good lucks to everyone.

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