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How to attract good engineers
8

How to attract good engineers

How to attract good engineers

(OP)
   My company has less than 90 employees, 15 of who are in engineers or engineering support.  Products consist of both standard and custom machinery.   Our HR person has been inquiring about what makes a company appealing to work for as an engineer and how best to attract good talent.   My answer to the first one is lots of interesting problems to work on, the tools and resources to work on them, and reasonable compensation, e.g. pay, benefits and a family friendly work week.   What answer would you give her?

RE: How to attract good engineers

I would find another HR person who knows how to do their job.

TTFN



RE: How to attract good engineers

I think management can be quite key to a happy workplace.  Personally, I can make just - just about any work subject matter interesting enough to challenge my mind, but if my boss is a micro-manager or just a real horse's patoot, it's real hard for me to like my job.

RE: How to attract good engineers



Call me a cynic, but it sounds like your HR person is updating her cv (resume?)and getting ready for the interview at another engineering company!

RE: How to attract good engineers

Pay and benefits is number one by a factor of 10.  Anyone who tells you pay and benefits are not important is already making a lot of money.

Maybe you should check out the edition of machine design where the year end job satisfaction survey is published.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Management has always been a big issue for me.
 
Micro-managers, lack of professional respect, and poor descion makers drive me NUTS... It's really hard to feel good about doing a job when you feel management is driving the company into the ground with poor decisions. UNFORTUNATELY the HR person won't be able to change this situation.

I finally got a job working for a small company run by engineers 5 minutes from home...couldn't be happier (unless I won the lottery)

RE: How to attract good engineers

Interesting work, good pay / benefits, reasonable work schedule, and managers that can adapt this to the requirements of each individual......similar to what you said.

But more on point to the HR people, I have always found that recruiting engineers is easier if you have

1) cutting edge tools and equipment (software, computers, workspaces)
2) cutting edge work (highly techinical or challenging)
3) engineers in key positions in the company (president, managers, etc.)

People will go for less pay / benefits / time off if you have one of all three of these.

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: How to attract good engineers

Is the HR person putting your job
out on the market or do you really
need another Engineer?

RE: How to attract good engineers

Hi I think job satisfaction is the best answer to this. It includes good salary, benefits, flexible working hours challanging problems, good atmosphere amongst collegues and respect for what you are doing for the company. Where I work Project Management and Procurment are the only disciplines that get the credits from the managemnt here.

See you around folks !!

Kind Regard,

Chris

RE: How to attract good engineers

RESPECT ...

chris introduces a good point ... engineers in senior management positions, it doesn't ensure that the company respects and values engineering as a function (rather than as a cost center) particularly if they've gone over to the dark side after only a year or two working as engineers; but at least it gives you a chance.

maybe if engineering is set up as a profit center, rather than a cost center, it shows the bean counters the discrete, short term value of engineering ('cause i don't think anyone can measure the long term value of good engineering ... maybe it used to be called "quality").  a company i worked for did this with one engineering services group, charging for their services (instead of giving them away for free) ... which brings to mind "customer service", but that's another thread !  it worked well for them, they could see a whole bunch of dollars coming in (where before there were none, only the perception of dollars going out).

btw, i liked the comments about maybe the HR person is brushing up their cv

RE: How to attract good engineers

Good points raised about what makes us happy (it isn't just a computer and occasional watering?)

However I must (gasp!) defend this HR person.  Call me naive, but it sounds like she was looking for a way to promote the company to other technical types - and in an apparently wise move - decided to ask the techies themselves what they liked.  I don't see how an HR person at an engineering company knowing what engineers like equates to job-hopping.  

I'd much prefer being asked what I like than being told.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Retaining an engineer and sustaining his interests in work at high energy levels is a challenge, especially for small companies,where career goals,promotions,etc have limited influence.

It is an art that I have developed in my company with my employees staying with me for the past 15 years. (India). I have withstood the BPO onslaught successfully.

It is easy to make them identify the goals of the company and make them have a feeling of oneness. Be transparent with them in all matters and involve them in matters related to management . Let them know the value of every dollar that comes in .

I do it on a weekly basis ,so that the workmen plan their work. After sometime it becomes fun and is not stressful. I am enjoying that phase of bliss!

RE: How to attract good engineers

(OP)
Thanks to all for the input.   

I can vouch for our HR person, she is a part owner and this was a sincere request as we have been looking for someone for the past several months.

Maybe all the good candidates already have a good computer and a good boss!

RE: How to attract good engineers

Maybe a minor point, but a company should have a performance review system that can be structured to the engineering job function. Too many companies use a generic MBO type of system that may be fine for managers or marketing types, but is a poor fit to engineers.

RE: How to attract good engineers

I think I agree with HemiBuell - people who say that money isn't important are usually already financially independent.

My market is currently one of the hottest, not just in the country, but probably in the history of the country.

Most of my friends/colleagues who leave are being bribed to leave with .......$$$$. That's right. Money.

From my perspective, even if you are happy where you are at now - it may change tomorrow. People come and go, retire, etc. Money in the bank is there for you. You can always make new friends and etc. but, money lost, like time, can't be re-couped.

Like they say, you better make hay while the making is good.

If you want to hire good engineers in a tight market, there is a good chance you will have to hire them away from somebody else. To do that, you need to get their attention. People usually notice money.

I'm anticipating the responses  to this one. smile

RE: How to attract good engineers

You know I've always had issues with the owners of small companies.  The smaller the company is the more micro-manager the owner seems to be...all due respect it is his/her business to flow up on things but haveing this person questioning every little thing I do and ask a billion question also slows down my production level.  Give your engineers some room to breath.  Do not have any engineers report to you directly.  Have there supervisors report to you.

RE: How to attract good engineers

To attract them: post accurate job descriptions to get their attention.  During the interview don't limit yourself to a sit-down interview only, take a walk round the plant.

Retaining them is the real challenge.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: How to attract good engineers

It sounds as if it has been covered well, completely and candidly but I will add this.

The ability and opportunity to attend an occasional conference, receive professional training when appropriate, and publish if within the bounds of confidentiality.

Paul Ostand
www.ostand.com

RE: How to attract good engineers

Don't lie to me.

Tell me what you want.

Tell me what you can afford.

Get out of my way.

Pay me enough so I can worry about other things.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How to attract good engineers

Thought I'd answered this, but don't see it, so here goes again...

Looking at the employment situation from the other side, it seemed to me that employers wanted people to have extensive experience in EXACTLY whatever field it was they were doing.  Of course, the only people who could fulfill this were already working for the competitor companies on the other side of the country, so you have to pay big bucks to lure someone away from a good job, plus get them to move across the country.  I didn't quite understand the logic in paying top dollar for the brightest person, while at the same time, assuming he/she was too stupid to learn anything any different from their prior experience.

Room for professional development is good.  Variety is good.  Vacation is good.  Location that you don't have to commute an hour to get to is good.  Company that will still be around in 25 years should you decide to stay is good.  Good place to live is good (ie, low crime, scenic, good weather).  Owner or boss that is not overbearing is good.  Actual office as opposed to cubicalville or the 20-guys-in-a-big-room is good.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Whilst I agree with most of the above, pay, conditions, management, interesting work etc, I feel there is an X factor as well.

I am sure over the years we have all had a favourite bar, golf club, theatre or whatever. Was it the cheapest did it have the best facilities or was it the nearest, probably none of those, but it just felt right, is the workplace any different?

Of course what feels right to one may not to another, but certainly in the sector I work in I know how “happy” many people are at my competitors and where I would look for a job. However that is in England and a fairly specialised field so may not apply elsewhere.

I have still to meet the person who thinks their boss is perfect, doesn’t want more money, better equipment, less work but more challenging work or would not be happier in a larger office.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Unfortunately, your HR representative can't just make up an appealing work environment based on what you might think is attractive to good talent.

Your company culture and benefits are what they are; all you can really do is take a survey of the existing 15 engineers, and ask them about their likes, dislikes and desires. The truth is the only recruiting tool you have.

Attracting good talent needs to be leveled against the resource and the need. If you have a high caliber engineer that wants to lead the way in technological advances, that engineer might not be happy designing 1/4-20 screws....if you know what I mean.
Charlie

Charlie
www.facsco.com

RE: How to attract good engineers

Look under "Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs"
The closer your work environment is to the top, the closer you are to "engineering paradise"
[then a mega-corp buys you out sad & ruins every thing]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs

RE: How to attract good engineers

Where is your company?  Maybe I'd be interested!

RE: How to attract good engineers

Perhaps you should ask what shouldnt your company do in order to retain their engineering staff.

You should NOT:-

1) Treat engineers as a resource that can be tapped into when required but treat them as an integhral part of the team
2) Give them all the responsibility but no authority
3) Quibble about the purchase of books/standards/software/computers/subscriptions to learned societies and any other tools they can justify to do their job
4) Pay the chief engineer less than other executives
5) Give them the title "manager" in order to give them the pay they need to retain them rather than just acknowledging that an engineer is worth the money.
6) Dont allow them to buy into the company and share the wealth generated by their efforts or ingenuity
7) Take your brightest engineers and push them into management losing the ingenuity that creates wealth just because management is seen to be superior to engineering
8) Lastly allow managers to make contrary decisions in engineering matters, without consultation, ignoring the expert advice they have been given when they are not an engineer.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Arto, the needs triangle is so important.  I have it hanging up at my desk.

Star for you.

RE: How to attract good engineers

The following should be attractive to graduate engineers:
- the engineering dept is managed by graduate engineers and not part of the sales dept; it reports to top mgt;
- the company is certified by ISO9000 or QS9000, but that is no absolute guarantee of good operations;
- the department has an active patent release system and reward system for patents assigned by the USPO;
- there are draftspersons as well as engineers, and the burden of producing drawings is not fully on the shoulders of graduate engineers;
- advanced engineering studies are supported by the company;
- engineering is a valued operation in the company as expressed by top management.

RE: How to attract good engineers

plasgears, I don't necessarily disagree with your points, but would like to point out that some of those items would be pretty uncommon in certain sectors of industry.

RE: How to attract good engineers

plasgears,

Just to add to JStephen's comments. In my industry, points 2,3,and 5 are very rare.

ISO9000, QS9000, etc. are not valued - as you said, they are no guarantee of good operations.

Patents? Nope, they are the property of the employer as per employment contract.

Advanced studies? On your own time and dime.

RE: How to attract good engineers

2
In my opinion, a lot of what makes a good company is how the engineering department is managed.  If the eng. dept. reports to some middle management who is not an engineer who then reports to the owner(s), there will be problems.  In my company, we have a good balance of interests where each department reports directly to the owner.  We end up having to go a few rounds every once in a while; but I believe it is better this way.  If an engineering decision can be overridden by someone who does not understand what is in question, then I know I'm not interested.

On a side note, if your company can reduce the frequency of long useless meetings, they would get a flood of interested applicants.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Don't reject an applicant becauuse he/she doesn,t have "10+ years of experience in "uvw" systems using an "xyz" program that you use in your company. A good engineer can pick it up in a matter of months or probably less. It is more important that you evaluate on the basis of strong disciplines and commitment. I see far too many ads that require very specific programs and too many years of specific experience which probably discourages the truly competent engineer from even applying. And my biggest peeve is that HR is doing the screening based on the above principles, thus rejecting applicants on the narrow grounds mentioned.
In a small engineering company, only engineers should be looking at the resumes, not HR unless they are good engineers themselves.
If I looked at a resume (and I have in many of the small engineering companies I have worked for) I would look at achievement, education, and commitment and would like to hear things that "I made the major contribution to the xyz problem" or published "abc paper" as the senior author etc.
not that " I directed xyz program" or "contributed" to uvw
program. Contributed?, in what way ? Directed, in what way?

RE: How to attract good engineers

"I see far too many ads that require very specific programs and too many years of specific experience"

I don't know how common it is- but I understand that in some cases, you'll have a foreign engineer working under a visa, and it is up to employer to show there are no qualifying applicants from the US.  Hence, the ultra-restrictive ad, which is not intended to attract applicants, but to prevent anyone from applying.  The ads that come to mind also had sub-par wages, considering the expertise required.

I remember also reading where large corporations complained to Congress about the lack of qualified workers, but then apparently made zero effort to get anyone qualified- a strange attitude, in my mind.

RE: How to attract good engineers

2
Free beer.

Barry1961

RE: How to attract good engineers

Had that once.

When you mumbled "I could use a beer", the boss would bring you a cold one.  Not cheap stuff, either.  He threw great parties.

I still miss that job.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How to attract good engineers

I had a wonderful boss early in my career.  He thought I was worth developing and said that his goals for managing me were (in this order):
1.  Pay me enough that I never thought about money (because when I was thinking about my pay I wasn't thinking about his projects)
2.  Delegate enough authority that I seldom had to ask permission.
3.  Keep me informed of what the company was doing while not wasting my time in pointless meetings
4.  Keep my work queue full of things that challenged me

That was the best three years of my life.  Then the SOB up and died on me.  His replacement was terrible, he took active steps to bring my salary into line with "my peers", moved me to a smaller office, made sure that I didn't miss any more weekly staff meetings.  It sure made me appreciate my old boss.

I think anyone with the sense to pound sand would work their tail off for an organization that believed in the four points above.  I did a post appraisal on those three years and my salary differential "above the norm" was less than 0.01% of the contribution of my work (in net present value at the company's hurdle rate).  The next two years weren't as pretty.

David

RE: How to attract good engineers

Bad bosses _never_ die on you.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How to attract good engineers


Everyone already stated some of my most important issues.

Here's one I don't think anyone covered.

Paid overtime - we have it here.  It is one of the BIGGEST reasons I wouldn't want to leave.  I never get asked to do overtime and if I do, it's paid for.  They are less likely to ask you to work overtime because it costs the company more money.  It ensures that its only used when completely necessary.  I hear so many horror stories of engineers who work extended shifts on a daily basis and don't get paid a penny extra for it.

RE: How to attract good engineers

I've never gotten actual pay for voluntary overtime, but at one job I greatly enjoyed, the GM's wife would personally deliver a small honorarium each week.  It was just enough to cover dinner at McDonald's, but her really big smile and hearty "Thank You!" greatly enhanced its value.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: How to attract good engineers

How many companyies ask you to put the regulation 7.5 or 8 hours ofr the day on a timesheet and then expect you to work 10-12 hours? If you work the hours then put them on the time sheet. The day you want compassionate leave for a sick kid is the day they dock you for the time. With the time sheet evidence you can argue for payment. On top of that if you are unfairly dismissed you can claim all the back pay.

RE: How to attract good engineers

There are some nice points and wish lists mentioned above. However, as I see the problem is that the technical world is becoming increasingly political and not surprisingly, I have seen a significant decline in manufacturing in my part of the world.

RE: How to attract good engineers

"How to attract good engineers"

1. Pay a lot of money.
2. Job security.
3. #2 is more important than #1.
4. Challenging young engineers with smart, honest managers with enough experience and success who can teach them.
5. #2 is more important than #1.
6. Offer promotions based on achievement.
7. Pay for advanced education.
8. Pay me 150% of what I make now and I will leave.
9. #2 is more important than #8.
10. If you're hiring engineers, don't make them budget analysts. If you do that, I will leave. And don't think I won't ask how long the other folks have been around and what it is they really do for a living.

RE: How to attract good engineers

Engineering company run by an engineer = GOOD

Engineering company run by an accountant / lawyer / salesman = BAD

RE: How to attract good engineers

harrisj,
        Even worse is a Company that has Design run by un-qualified Project "Managers" who were "failed draughtsmen" and migrated to the Project Dept.

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