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Negative and Positive
2

Negative and Positive

Negative and Positive

(OP)
I'm just in the process of writing a Requirement Specification for the next generation of product I am partly responsible for. This Spec is in joint co-operation with a colleague in Germany. I used the expressions "-ve" and "+ve" to state, quite plainly I thought, Negative and Positive values. My colleague asked first what did it mean and after my explanation that a simple "-" could be confused as a hyphen etc and it was shorthand for the full word, his reply was "but why not just use Negative and Positive?".
Does anyone else in the English speaking world use -ve and +ve?

RE: Negative and Positive

I use it for shorthand (note-taking), but if I am writing a spec, I would definitely use the full word.

RE: Negative and Positive

I use Pos and Neg (works for French & English, hehe) but all important documents need the wording to be written entirely

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France

RE: Negative and Positive

(OP)
I know, you're correct gents. In fact, I should know better, as soon as my German colleagues question anything to do with English spelling,Grammar etc proposed from this small island of ours, we know we are wrong and they are right.

RE: Negative and Positive

I usually enclose the symbols in brackets:
(-)ve and (+)ve
(+/-)1.0% etc.
This seesm to me quite unambiguous in whatever language it is written.
Is this what you doing or did you just have "-ve" and "+ve"?

When refering to polarity I would have expected that it should be clear enough to engineers and installers, electricians etc.  

But if in doubt, spell it out as FrenchCad and justkeepgiviner suggest for important documents.
Perhaps it may be best to always spell it out though I can't recall doing that in any manuals I have written.

Symbols don't need translating but words do and here in Europe words are at a premium when writing anything that has to be translated into upmteen languages to satsify European law.

In fact, the downside of this legislation seems to be that manuals are now all too brief.
Accurate, hopefully, but less readable and certainly less informative and with fewer explanations that aid understanding. Once upon a time a manual was a font of useful information, no longer is that so.

So when you've completed it and it goes for translation, what is the betting you get more helpful advise saying to use symbols instead of words?

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Negative and Positive

(OP)
JMW
yes, I did (-)ve and (+)ve. This document is only for our development dept, so words with more than two syllables are generally too much anyway (...only joking guys!).
Your comment about manuals being too brief. Yes, the printed manuals are (pictures and symbols) very brief and basic but the documentation now on CD (in fact we now have to go to DVD to get it all on) are huge, due to the numerous languages.

RE: Negative and Positive

Then how could your colleague see this as a "hyphen"?
Hyphens are not enclosed in parenthesis.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Negative and Positive

I only use +ve and -ve in hand written note taking and calculations. (except for this post.)

If I intend anyone else to see it which means its done on a computer I use the full words.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Negative and Positive

(OP)
every day...

RE: Negative and Positive

English from between english speaking countrys (say Britain,US and Canada) varies. What is common to one area may not be to another. Jargon, colloquilism, etc. adds to the confusion.

In any specification, I spell everything out. I even go as far as to say three (3), and even to put the stroke through the "0" (zero) in case it is mistaken for "O" (letter O).

RE: Negative and Positive

What's the point of "three (3)"?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Negative and Positive

Don't forget to cross your 7's either.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Negative and Positive

For the sake of health and international relations, minimize the negatives values [maybe multiple them together?] and emphasize the positive values.  
 
Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!
...
Oddball: Crazy! I mean like so many positive waves maybe we can't lose!"
-- Kelly's Heroes (1970).

Also, three (3) beat two pair.

RE: Negative and Positive

RDK,

Actually, I cross my "Z" (zeee or zed), to distinguish it from my "2" (twos).

RE: Negative and Positive

While possibly less of a concern in today's world of e-mailed documents, in the past there was the danger of reporduction errors causing a change in meaning.

A "-" with a few specs of dirt above or below can look like a "+", especially on a fourth or fifth generation copy.

Similarly, a few generations of light copies can make it hard to be sure about the vertical line in the "+".

Safer to spell it out.

RE: Negative and Positive

Oh dear, now I already use continental sevens (7's) and zeds/zees (z's) and though I thought it was enough to put parentheses around "+" and "-" (((+)(plus or positive)) & (and) (-)(minus, subtract or negative))), I'm sure I can't put a diagonal line through the division sign (horizontal line with a spot above and below) so people don't confuse it witha worn out plus/positive (+) sign.

But come on now guys, let's be serious, if I have to describe and name each symbol I am left wondering why we have symbols at all.

I thought that their original purpose was to avoid all this writing things out long hand? Just put a key at the end with what each symbol means and if "(-)" isn't listed as a hyphen, it aint a hyphen, we logically assume it to be a negative sign, or am I living on the wrong planet? (or the wrong side of it).

Just how far would Einstein have got if he had to spell it all out. If you are going to write "negative" why bother with (-)? and visa versa....

I mean, come on guys, why do we have a "+" or "(+)" sign if it isn't to avoid writing sumate/add or positive? and now I have to worry about spots of dirt or bits of the print rubbed off?
Why don't we just write a few extra disclaimers at the end saying:
only use approved copies
only use first generation copies
only use copies recently printed
do not use if covered in coffee cup rings
do not wrap your sarnies in it
do not read it if yuou can't read
do not read it if you have an IQ a dead snail would e proud of


Unles, of course, you guys are referring to documents to be read by the general public who are now assumed to be so totally brain dead they have to be told that hot coffee from MacDonalds will scald you if you put it on the dashboard of your car and drive across a storm gulley.

3eyes  

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Negative and Positive

I hereby nominate jmw for QA Manager, Controlled Distribution Copies, Engineering Language/Grammar Skills Forum, and
MintJulep as Number One (1) Proofreader, ibid.

RE: Negative and Positive

I'd use the sign in a math formula but would write out positive/negeative in the text instead of using +ve / -ve.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Negative and Positive

(OP)
I guess it didn't do the Egyptians any harm with symbols. All I can say is, it's a good job the Project Manager for the Pyramids was not an Englishman, otherwise they would have run out of wall space...

RE: Negative and Positive

I'm just teasing, I'll learn from Rick.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

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