moonlighting and ethics
moonlighting and ethics
(OP)
First the background....EIT with solid autocad drafting skills.
Btw, I still have to study and take the ethics exam which is why I'm asking the question here.
So be kind, please....
I used to do occasional moonlighting when I was a draftperson/technician. Drafting in other disciplines not related to the job. Out of curiosity, how many people here have moonlighted? Does it cause you any conflicts?
It seems like a common practice even though most places specify that they do not allow moonlighting. I have never seen enforcement of this rule.
So, I been asked to do some drafting for an engineer. He used to work at my current place of employment.
The project is in another jurisdiction, where chicken wire solutions seem to be the order of the day....
sorry I'm being a little glib here.
This involves doing some shop drawings which he will approve as part of one of his projects.
He claims that there is no conflict of interest for him.
Isn't the manufacturer responsible for the design of the piece of work?
Doesn't production and signing of said "shop drawings" represent a conflict of interest or more to the point
a liability problem for the project design engineer?
I was provided with sample drawings of what was expected and the current design drawings.
When we met, I mentioned that I would only be providing him with a preliminary and that he would obviously have to
revise, since I was providing him with drafting work and not doing design work. This type of design work is outside of my expertise.
After a preliminary review of shop drawings samples with the associated project drawings, I cannot feel confident as to certain dimensions and connection details for the work. These would obviously be part of the manufacturer's expertise.
I really feel uncomfortable doing this side contract. I feel obligated, because I said I do it, plus he's an experienced engineer and I would call him a friend and definite possible reference
Now, that I am an EIT, am I exposing myself to any future problems?
Any advice on how to handle the situation? How do I get out of it?
Btw, I still have to study and take the ethics exam which is why I'm asking the question here.
So be kind, please....
I used to do occasional moonlighting when I was a draftperson/technician. Drafting in other disciplines not related to the job. Out of curiosity, how many people here have moonlighted? Does it cause you any conflicts?
It seems like a common practice even though most places specify that they do not allow moonlighting. I have never seen enforcement of this rule.
So, I been asked to do some drafting for an engineer. He used to work at my current place of employment.
The project is in another jurisdiction, where chicken wire solutions seem to be the order of the day....
sorry I'm being a little glib here.
This involves doing some shop drawings which he will approve as part of one of his projects.
He claims that there is no conflict of interest for him.
Isn't the manufacturer responsible for the design of the piece of work?
Doesn't production and signing of said "shop drawings" represent a conflict of interest or more to the point
a liability problem for the project design engineer?
I was provided with sample drawings of what was expected and the current design drawings.
When we met, I mentioned that I would only be providing him with a preliminary and that he would obviously have to
revise, since I was providing him with drafting work and not doing design work. This type of design work is outside of my expertise.
After a preliminary review of shop drawings samples with the associated project drawings, I cannot feel confident as to certain dimensions and connection details for the work. These would obviously be part of the manufacturer's expertise.
I really feel uncomfortable doing this side contract. I feel obligated, because I said I do it, plus he's an experienced engineer and I would call him a friend and definite possible reference
Now, that I am an EIT, am I exposing myself to any future problems?
Any advice on how to handle the situation? How do I get out of it?





RE: moonlighting and ethics
This is a very serious issue for your main employer. I would check with them if possible but I would guess they'd ask you not to do such things.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I’m most likely the most vocal about my belief that moonlighting for an engineer is practically impossible to do in an ethical manner.
Even there is no current conflict what about potential future conflicts? Perhaps someday your employer will be involved in a project where the moonlighting employer would be sitting across the table, perhaps using your work product.
How would you respond if the current employer was arguing against the validity of your work project? Perhaps not even the current employer but someone else on that project team.
Where would your loyalties lie in that case?
What is the moonlighting employer needed a quick answer to a question regarding the work product? Would you take the call on time that you have sold to your current employer? How about a quick modification to the drawing? Would you do that at the current employer’s workplace and e-mail it back on the current employer’s computers?
Where are you doing the work? After hours at the current work location? Whose AutoCAD will you be using? A copy licensed to the current employer?
If you needed a reference to check up on some aspect of the work would you use the current employer’s material or internet connection to look it up?
Would you want the full range of your activities known to your current employer?
It would only be ethical if you were doing this with the full knowledge and permission of the current employer.
As a general rule if you are uncomfortable doing it, it is unethical.
Ethics are what keep us honest when no one is looking.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
If YOU are ethical, then there is no issue. You simply recuse yourself from the decision, citing a conflict of interest. Countless judges, Alito, not withstanding, do this on a regular basis. The work CAN be done ethically. If all the particulars are out in the open and everyone is aware of and accepts your situation then there can't be an issue. These issues only arise because someone lied by omission, i.e., they were unethical to begin with.
We used to have a yearly conflict of interest form to fill out wherein we listed all potential conflicts of interest. Too bad it went away.
TTFN
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Most of us are considered to be exempt from overtime payment. Our existing salaries are intended to cover any additional hours needed. A conflict could arise where the extra pay moonlighting obligation might conflict with a non-extra pay obligation to the principal employer.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I look out for my interests when it comes to employers. They will not look out for you like the old days, its a dog eat dog world and if you hang on to the fallacy that an employer is looking out for you, then you will be disappointed. This is not to say I look for a way to give them the shaft.
There is no liability with you making these drawings. You are a drafter (or designer if you prefer - same thing)in this case so your not liable for anything, the engineer is. Just point out your concerns in the drawings so he knows.
I will get hammered with this post. Let the blows begin.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Personally, I work as a contractor, so I can, do (within limits) what I want, when I want. I make sure that the companies I contract with understand the difference between me (as a contractor) and a direct employee. Legeally, there are differences.
I personally feel, that unless there is a direct conflict of interest, then I may work for whomever I want... and I do. I work for 1 company, as my primary contract for 40+ hrs a week. I also do work for 2 other companies (from my home, with liscensed software) in the evenings and weekends.
I made sure to let these secondary companies know when I am available. If they wish to contact me, then I will gladly take their calls, during these time periods. (example would be while I am at lunch during the day) or evenings (I always give myself 1 hr buffer between my expected day end at my primary and when I can be available to the secondaries).
Try and not see yourself as an employee, but as a vendor providing a service to your company. For example, if you owned your own Surveying Company, no one would expect you to not work on Highway 1 with contractor A, if you were working on Bulding site 2 with contractor B.
If you are honest, and upfront, and are willing to recuse yourself when there IS a conflict of interest, then go for it.
Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Actually, I would vote that you are the most vocal.
I agree with RDK. And actually, oeceana1234, I think you do too.
I am not one to argue ethics (can't win proposition). I am a stickler on legality. If you signed an employment contract, I suggest that you check it. Most employment contracts expressly exclude you doing any work in the field of your employer. This means that Starbucks is okay, drafting, not so much.
If your employment contract does not exclude you working in the same field, then, it is legal. Do as you wish.
By the way, lack of enforcement does not make it legal.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I did go on to say that if the current employer was informed and agreed to the work that there would not be a conflict of interest.
As an independent consultant, working in a small market, I often run into possible conflict situations. When I become aware of them I make sure to inform all parties of the potential conflict and offer to withdraw from the assignment. Only if all parties agree to my continued work will I continue.
If I have to withdrawal I also take pains not to charge anyone for the time spent, usually not a major concern as the conflict is apparent quickly in the process.
If everyone is aware and in agreement then the only ethical concern would be local state rules. I would be surprised if they did not allow moonlighting to continue if all parties were informed and in agreement that the work would be allowable.
When I was working for the government and had many people reporting to me I had simple rules regarding outside work. If for a charity then it was allowable to do so in slack time and have limited use of the supplies, if a favor for a friend type of work not for pay then OK to use the office but not any supplies or work time, if for profit then no way was the individual allowed to use the office, equipment or supplies. They also were not allowed to take any phone calls or ask anyone else any questions regarding the work up to and including using work reference books.
Shortly before I started there there was a major issue where one of the draftsmen had been advertising drafting services and putting the work phone number in the local paper. Needless to say the local draftsman who made his living on this quickly put in a call to his MP and the individual soon left the Canadian Armed Forces on an involuntary basis. (He had a history with doing this sort of thing so it was not the first time he had been disciplined.)
Ashereng
I would agree with you that I am number one but did not want to blow my own horn.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
As an EI, you are not subject to all of the same rules and penalties that a professional engineer would be. They can, however, resurface years later and haunt you. It would be like doing something wrong that you can't be punished for, but everyone knows you did it. That's not a good feeling. Have you discussed how uncomfortable you are with this engineer for whom you are working? If this person were a good engineer and a friend I would think he or she would be more than happy to explain things. Maybe your feeling is the result of a misunderstanding. If not, and you still are as uncomfortable as you are doing the work, then back out and return whatever you have been paid if need be. Again, you have to look out for you because no one else will do it for you.
whyun - Would my actions be unethical if I were too tired due to studying late, or playing or anything else, or is it just if I were too tired because I was working elsewhere to support my family?
That makes it sound as though my employer is #1 in my life, and I cannot agree with that thinking. Perhaps I misunderstood you.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I believe that you indicated that you are doing shop drawings for your friend. You also indicated that you don't feel comfortable with the dimensions indicated on the drawings. In my past experience with shop drawings, the responsibility for the dimensions did not belong to the engineer. You may wish to consider this.
A friend of mine used to moonlight. But he was working in the world of industry (manufactured products), which is a greatly varied and voluminous world, where one could achieve anonymity easily. And the engineering he did while moonlighting was a world apart from what he did on his primary job. His primary employer would merely try to somehow steal his ideas & designs from him if he so informed them of his extracurricular activities.
I don't think that the Civil Engineering community is one where anonymity would be as easily achieved as my friend did out in industry. I would therefore caution you about not informing your employer.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I would like to thank you for a different perspective. Another engineer I spoke with was advising against telling anybody internally that I was taking on any drafting work...
My biggest ethical dilemma wasn't actually that much about the moonlighting....didn't think it was such a big deal for one little DRAFTING project. I didn't intend to be moonlighting as a regular activity....in my mind it was sorta like a one shot deal, help a friend, make a couple of bucks.
My concerns was with the work itself or being associated with a piece of work for which I do not believe the engineer, let alone myself has any expertise in.
So to maintain a good conscious, I will mention to someone in authority that I've taken one project for so and so...
ucfse---- thank you for the personal touch aspect of your response....I will adopt that attitude
I am considering simply providing a line and text drawing with empty annotation spaces to be filled in by the project engineer
not accepting compensation, calling it a favor, and chalking it up to experience
eddyc----"In my past experience with shop drawings, the responsibility for the dimensions did not belong to the engineer"
what if the engineer is making the manufacturer's shop drawings....don't the dimensions then become his responsibility?
or am I just nit picking?
buzz....I must be terribly unethical....cause I am going for a beer tonight
The point I guess always comes back to being able to look and smile at the person in the mirror.
Still wishing, I'd never stepped into this....
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I do live my life in such a manner that I am ready and able to go to work and be productive.
The extension to your reasoning would be that it would be OK to go to work with a hangover that would kill a horse or even keep drinking all night right up to time to go to work.
Sorry but you have an obligation to your employer to show up for work on time and to be ready and able to perform the duties of your position when you get there.
Working another job or playing softball or any other reason is not grounds for showing up unable to work.
Of course in the real world employers realize that their employees are human and often have responsibilities and recreation outside of work that may occasionally make them less productive. But over the long term, if you are coming to work hung over don’t expect to have to worry about you job cutting into your drinking time for very long.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
buzzp - I can certainly understand the concept of companies "not giving a rip about you" and all that. But ocean here may have a conflict in that his terms of employment originally negotiated with his/her employer may directly stipulate no moonlighting. If that is the case then moonlighting would be simply unethical as that was the aggreement that occurred at the point of hiring.
For the quote above, my point (way up above) was that moonlighting, in this litigious society, is always a risk to the company. If the shop drawings deal with a design that fails and hurts someone, either financially or physically, then the attorneys will and do sue everyone involved, including ocean's home company. And ocean would soon find out that the home company really doesn't give a rip about him/her.
Your other quote that caught my eye: There is no liability with you making these drawings.....well, it just caught my eye. Is there such a thing as "no liability" in our engineering work?
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Everyone has a family and that should be the priority in life.
What was getting at is, your primary income source pays you for a reason (your work). If outside work adversely affect your job performance, and you are collecting the same paycheck, you are shortchanging your employer. Sleeping during normal work hours due to fatigue from working 7PM to 2AM on side work at home definitely is unethical.
I wouldn't say being tired from studying, playing or doing personal things is unethical. It will show on your job performance so keeping a good balance is prudent.
Hopefully this clears things a bit.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RDK said, "Is there such a thing as “no liability” in the USA for any business?" Who is talking about a business, we are talking about a drafter.
RDK also said, "Working another job or playing softball or any other reason is not grounds for showing up unable to work." We were talking about being less productive not being unable to work. Ever have a headache? Ever have body aches? Ever get sick and still go to work? Anyone of them cases could cause you to be less productive. Shame on me for dissing my employer by getting a head ache. If your that committed its only because its your company. If your so committed to avoid anything after hours which may hinder your performance the next day (and I sincerely doubt you are), then all I can say is get a life but in your case, as you said, you do have a life. Here is your quote, "I do live my life in such a manner that I am ready and able to go to work and be productive." Keep up the good work. If thats all your life revolves around is work, then your missing out on a lot more. I like my career but I like my family, sports, racing, hiking, fishing, etc equally or more.
If I have to stay up late to participate in a 10:00 softball game then I will make that sacrifice and be tired the next day. Most people try to get a good nights rest but when your living life, there is no way you can hit the sack every night at 10:00 (or whatever time you go to bed to be rested). If you want to, more power to you. To expect your employees to give up their life for your company is simply ridiculous.
JAE, while I understand your concerns over any agreements in place when he was hired, if the company can not justify how this may affect them (assuming he approached them and they said no) then I would do it anyway (of course everything depends on the circumstances around the situation). Also, there is no way a lawyer could ever get a drafter be named in a lawsuit provided the drawing was signed by a licensed engineer. He may get him named, but I can assure you he would never be liable unless he misrepresented himself. It would also be extremely difficult to get his current employeer involved in the lawsuit. The guy said he is acting as a drafter on this project, not a licensed engineer.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
buzzp - I'm not an attorney - but I just don't see how there is "no way" that there is any potential for the danger of getting pulled into a suit no matter who you are...and this guy IS an EIT.
If some major disaster were to happen, you can bet that the attorneys would be all over ANYONE associated with the project. They would blanket the suits out to all and then sift through the details later. In the meantime, ocean here would be sucked into hiring an attorney to get him out of it all....$$$$ There is liability, probably less so (as you state) for drafters of firms (I have to admit I've never heard of a drafter getting sued while working within a firm - but for drafters working on their own, on contract, there is a huge jump in exposure.
Again, lawyers sue anyone closely involved, even if you "know" that there is no direct liability (legally) for the home company. The main reason firms have NO MOONLIGHTING clauses in their personnel handbooks is due to the exposure to litigation.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
The issue, then, is whether you have sufficiently deep pockets to weather such an event. There was recently, a company in California that took advantage of a certain law to simply extort money from companies by threatening to sue. If the other party refused, they'd bring suit and the party would either have to settle or tough it out.
TTFN
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Moonlighting is not inherently unethical. The ethics of the situation depend on the details. A mechanical engineer that works for an aircraft company is not unethical if he or she designs barbecue on weekends. Is a structural engineer that designs furniture unethical? Given the details of the situation it's not hard to determine the ethics in a particular case. Should engineers be limited to moonlighting only in non-engineering jobs (like pumping gas, working at WalMart etc.)? I think they should be limited from injuring their employer, which is the basis of ethics.
Some of the arguments presented here are not valid and have been so found in court.
The argument that moonlighting make for tire employees is valid, however that same employer had best apply the same standards to mothers with sick children, athlete who spend the week in iron man contest, people taking large class loads etc. etc. It the results that they have to respond to not the cause.
What ethics apply to employers that try to control the activities of employees off work?
California law has recently been amended to prevent employers from acting against employees for "lawful conduct occurring during non working hours away from the employer’s premises". The law was originated to prevent employers from discriminating against employees that were involved in highly visible activities like political races, gay pride parades, etc. The law has been applied to moonlighting.
The ethics of employers telling employees what to do and how to act has been tested in courts many times. People are entitled to a life, where you work is not what you are
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Yes, your company has no business telling you what TV shows to watch, what to wear after working hours, or what parades to participate in. But they do have the right to terminate your employment if you take your job-related skills and market them to their own clients, or potential clients, during off hours.
But the situation described for this thread was one of an Engineer Intern doing drafting work on the side for another engineer while working at another engineering firm. The home firm has every right to be concerned that engineering efforts, SOLD to another engineer (a potential client) might expose their company to lawsuits and also provide all sorts of issues related to ethics.
If ocean's services weren't available via moonlighting, would the engineer have to go directly to the engineering firm to get those same drafting services?
What was the essence of ocean's employment? Was moonlighting an allowed activity under the terms of the employment?
These are all very valid questions and there ARE ethical issues to consider.
I agree with BJC that moonlighting is not INHERENTLY unethical, but it many times is.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I developed my job-related skill in engineering school and a couple of employers before the present one. I may be adding to those skills in my moonlighting job.
An employer hires my time and my skills, if they want the exclusive use of those skills it would cost them more than they usually pay people.
I won't steal from them (clients, money time or material), use their name or use thier name in marketing. 40 Hrs a week is all there entitled to.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
"Employees will not engage in any other form of employment, paid or otherwise, during or outside working hours without the written consent of the company"
Needless to say I've refused to sign this as it would mean I can't do anything including weekend charity work without the company agreeing to it which is rediculous. I would suggest this type of stipulation is unethical.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
If the drafter of that detail had been a sub-contractor (not an employee), a graduate engineer and an EIT is there anyone out there that does not believe that they would be named in the lawsuit?
“Your honour, as a graduate of a school of engineering and someone in training for admission to the profession the defendant knew or should have known that this detail would not support the structure that he was assigned responsibility for the drawing of the connection and connection that he drew in such a manner that it lead to the collapse of the structure and the deaths of over 100 people.. We request that you give us all his assets, future earnings and first born male child in compensation.”
Moight not be successful but the cost of defense would be significant.
Remember the lawyer’s motto “Sue them all and let the judge sort it out.”
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
"But over the long term, if you are coming to work hung over don’t expect to have to worry about you job cutting into your drinking time for very long."
Oscar Wilde said
"Work is the curse of the Drinking Class"
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Not the only code around, but most are similar.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Jordanlaw, See they lied to you basically. Where are the ethics in that? Any almightys out there care to comment on his situation?
I hold myself to high ethical standards in my life(believe it or not). When it comes to employers, I give them in return what they give me. They have to practice what they preach.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
First off, you sure spend a lot of time on this forum, is that working time or personal time ;)........I personally call this professional education time.
Oceana,
My logic is that if employer A pays me to work from 8-5 with a lunch in between. I dedicate myself to employer A from 8-5 minus the lunch hour. I also do any overtime as required but I make up for it by taking longer lunches, leaving early etc, so that my time is more or less equal.
Now if it's lunch time or after 5 pm or before 8 am and I'm employed by another employer then my time is fair game, I disagree with using employer A's office supplies, internet etc to benefit employer B, however.
If a conflict of interest developed wherein B has my drawing and A will be using it, my opinion sides with whomeever is paying me during the review.
I tend to think like a mercenary when it comes to work....or a prostitute whatever is more appropriate. I do whatever my contract states for whomever happens to be paying me at the time. ie. If I begin work at B at 5:30 pm and if we are reviewing the drawing from between 4:50pm to 5:31pm I classify my tha time as overtime for A, the extra minute...that's officially still A's overtime, and I should state that I am technically working for both at that time....but I won't...no need to ruin my relationship with either.
As for being tired/hung over etc on the job, well that's a breach of my contract. All things aside I'd be pretty pissed if my boss was too hung over to fill out my pay slip.
Anyway it's lunch time and this is classified as professional education, so I refuse to type anymore as I'm not being paid ;).
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I would still disagree with you on the concept that ocean would be just as exposed to litigation at his home employment verses contracting work outside of his normal job.
When working for a firm/corporation, you are covered by that corporation against claims against your house, car, etc. If a lawsuit was raised against me personally, it would be tossed out as I am "under" the corporate umbrella and I had no personal contractual participation in this. The firm's attorneys would come in and get an immediate judgement (I think the term is summary judgement) removing all references to personal suits and converting them to a suit directed only at the corporation. Attorneys do this all the time.
But for ocean, working on his own, contracting directly with another engineer, he is totally "out there" and exposed. His home and personal assets would be all fair game. There is no corporate umbrella.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
When I say I take a mercenary additude to work, I also mean that generally don't take an active interest in the company's ideals, future goals etc. unless they directly influence, or I am required to do so as part of my job. Personally I don't think they care about my personal goals and ideals as well, unless those goals can benefit the company.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
An employee is an agent of the employer and thus is usually immune from legal action against him as long as he is acting within the scope of his duties and within the law.
Doesn’t stop the employee from being named in the lawsuit, may just protect the employee from judgment. This usually does not apply to officers of the company.
A contractor acting as a sole proprietorship (without any sort of corporate protection) could be on the hook for damages to the extent of any and all personal property.
Thus a drafter who was an employee could claim that he was simply drawing what he was told to draw and since the act of drawing that was within his scope of duties and a legal act the employee would be immune from judgment.
If the employee was named in a lawsuit then the employer would find it to his best advantage to hire the employee’s legal representative for two reasons. First the defense would be consistent. Secondly the employee would have less incentive to make a side agreement wit the opposition to provide evidence against the employer in return for being dropped from the lawsuit.
A firm that I know of was sued and in the lawsuit the firm was named as well as every employee that had contact with the plaintiff. This included the principals of the firm right down to the survey crew. The issue was not technical but contractual in nature.
If this can happen in Canada where our legal system does not go to the same extremes as does the US system, then a drafter could also be named in a US suit.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I do see where your coming from but I don't think the risk is anymore significant than the risk of getting sued for some ridiculous reason. Yes, he is probably out there a little more than if he were under his company. But he is not acting as an engineer when he was moonlighting. He was simply drawing what he was asked to draw, the engineer did or will approve it. He is the one most likely to be named in the suit. The drafter may get named as well but the engineer is the professional and as such takes full responsibility for any drawing he may sign and stamp. This pretty much makes the drafter immune (bad word as not totally immune, obivously) in a suit where fault is found.
I am just saying it is very unlikely he would ever be found at fault and held accountable. He may be named (and therefore have to hire a lawyer) but he could be named for countless other suits as well with the same probability, in my opinion.
On the flip side, if he can get sued working for his employer (even though he is no PE) then what extra risk is there in working for himself? (I don't think there is as much risk with the employer just using some of the material presented by some of the posters against them).
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Most employers don't care to much if you are tired at work every once in awhile. We have all done that before, including me. But it is the attitude that it seems that you have and it frustrates me. Do just enough to get a pay check and not get fired? I may have misread your posts and be wrong about your attitude, but I hate the idea of not wanting to excel. My attitude of wanting to do my best comes with me wherever I go, including work and home. This means that I put in more time at work than the 40 I am paid for, but if I refuse to do my best at work, what am I going to settle for at home.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
It may be that I am more cynical, having worked as a paid by the hour contractor, but I am very conscious that my employer is buying the hours of my life that I can find better things to do with. I'm not talking so much about the work stuff (which I enjoy very much), as meetings, and crunches, and pointless training in acronym ridden systems that have a half life of two years.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Yes you read me totally wrong. My frustration is with the almighty on here who are obviously company men with no life. The comment about NOT going to work tired was not made by me, it was made by one of the almighty. You should reread the threads. You should be arguing with them if you think its okay to goto work once in a while tired.
I to try my hardest at work. However, I am not one to donate my time just because I want to make brownie points. I will work beyond the 40 hrs on occasions where things are in crunch. But when I have to take the kid to the doctor or something, then they better not expect me to deduct this time.
If they do, gone are freebies. If your work is more important then your family, then I feel for you. If you want to donate time to your employer all the time, then have at it, just don't expect everyone too. An employer gets the same treatment from me as I get from them. If treatments is great, then good, they will get more freebies from me, if they blanket their no moonlighting policy and I have a good prospect in a way to make some extra bucks and it don't interfere with them or their clients, then I will do it. I am not going to sacrifice my personal gain, to satisfy their unwarranted concerns with me moonlighting. Notice the term 'unwarranted'.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
TTFN
RE: moonlighting and ethics
"Being too tired to work efficiently at your primary work due to long hours of moonlighting is unethical."
The first reply about this was from UcfSE:
"whyun - Would my actions be unethical if I were too tired due to studying late, or playing or anything else, or is it just if I were too tired because I was working elsewhere to support my family?"
UNLengineer said:
"Although your employer is not #1 in your life, you are being paid to be productive while at work. Whether you are tired from moonlighting or antyhing else, you are stealing time from your employer."
Then I said, "Boy, now I can't go to work tired because I may not be as productive regardless of why I am tired? I want you guys to work for me. I find it hard to believe that anyone would give there employer such consideration. Tell your friends you have leave your softball game early to make sure your productive at work tomorrow. Now thats being dedicated. Fortunately, I have a life outside of work and don't intend to think about work 24hrs a day and the affect my actions may have on my employer (at least not about being tired for work tomorrow). "
Then the heat was on me. So no, the original tiredness post did not mention being occasionally unprodcutive. However, all the posts after that made it sound like at no time should you do anything in the evening to jeopordize your productivity the next day.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I put in my terms of contract at my new employer that I would be doing moonlighting work in certain industries and even with certain companies to allow them to investigate the work in neccessary. In there I also wrote out that it would never be on their time. Nobody blinked an eye.
One time I was at lunch with my boss and he got a phone call. While he was on the phone I got a call and made a couple of more calls and made a month's pay while he was on the phone, in less than 5 minutes. He asked me what the call was about and I explained it to him, he laughed and asked me how often I do that. I told him not near enough to quit my day job. He got the idea.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
You have touched upon a good point. What is productivity for engineers? If and engineer is being paid to produce so many reports per day, so many square feet of drawings, or what ever quanative measurement you can think of is he/she really doing engineering work?
Engineer and Ingenious are variations of the same word. If your setting at your desk with a cup of coffee does that preclude you from having a brainstorm that might pay your salary for a month? Can you have a good ideal if your tired? hungry? If your moonlighting and have a great ideal for you "day" job should you impliment it the next morning or pretend it didn't happen?
Managers that operate like they are running some 19 th centruy coal mine are loosing a lot. They kill a lot of creativity and inititive. Engineering is solving problems most of us can't put them down when we go out the door. Those flashs of insight and inspiration can happen anywhere.
Lots of engineers "work 24/7" insisting that they be setting wide awake in a chair at location X doesn't equate to productivity.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I can really relate to your comment about: "Managers running their office like a 19th century coal mine". I've been in a few companies that are run this way. I find it peculiar that intelligent people choose to count the pennies that they can see rather than the dollars that they can't see, but intellectually know exist. One could certainly expect pennywise/dollar foolish behavior from the less intelligent, but it really surprises me to see it from engineer managers.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
TTFN
RE: moonlighting and ethics
with regards to creativity, I've had friends in architecture, interior design, music and arts who have had 24 hour days (ie. without sleep) and still create something great.
My wife lived off a few hours of sleep a night and still helped to create a movie (the director had even less sleep than her).
I guess it just depends on how motivated you are, a bored engineer on 8 hours sleep will produce lower quality work than a happy and motivated one will on 5 hours sleep, I know b/c I've been in both situations.
As for taking work home with me, that only happens when I actually like the work and when I actually care for the work....once again I've been in both situations (ie. thinking about work at home and not)
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Tired people make mistakes; that's a fact. Doctor's make mistakes when they're tired. The twenty people they do manage to keep alive can be quickly offset by the one person that dies because of a doctor's fatigue.
TTFN
RE: moonlighting and ethics
From the employer's perspective, they can maximize their profits when their employees produce the most in shortest amount of time possible. Being tired on occasion shouldn't be grounds for laying someone off but being tires all the time because you've been working all night on moonlighting work can surely p*ss off your boss.
I totally agree with JAE about litigation resulting from moonlighting work. A company can be totally exposed to the liability from an employee's moonlight job.
We all make a living. If we need more to survive, moonlighting definitely can be a good thing. But before pursuing that, first, find out about the moonlighting policy from your company, discuss whether there are any conflicts of interest between ANY parties involved, sign any legal documents releasing your employer from any litigation resulting from moonlight work, agree on approximate extent of moonlight work (hours per day or week...) When everyone is happy, then go for it.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
First off, a sample size of more than 5 is not necessarily anecdotal.
Secondly, how sure are you about your facts, your doctor story suggests that you are basing it on the media (perhaps) story that covers the single solitary screw up, in 21 people, the doctor made while being tired, is it possible that the doctor could have easily made the same screw up if wide awake, and working on 21 people?
My point, while I agree that in general tired people make more mistakes, generalisations rarely accurately portray the individual due to the complexity of factors involved.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
Enlightened companies recognize this and provide things such as work-out facilities, etc. Others do not.
If my performance is unsatisfactory, they'll toss me. Otherwise, it's none of the company's business what I do when I'm outside of work.
Sometimes I greatly exceed the requirements of my job; other times I fall short. In the aggregate, though, I must be doing OK or I'd be out. Right?
Some of the attitudes put forth here are simply amazing. I hope your loyalty is rewarded...
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RE: moonlighting and ethics
Engineering requires a very linear thinking pattern. We think in terms of IF.. THEN..ELSE thought processes.
Managers have a more organic type of thinking process where a wide variety of influences come to play and the outcome is not always predictable for the same inputs.
Also engineering thinking usually has a very clear goal that is known and understood by all and the limitations on the end result are more physical properties of material and structure than based on human behaviors.. The building shall not fall down.
Managers often have hidden agendas that do not depend on physical properties but on the best financial outcome for themselves (not always their employer) If the building falls down how can I blame someone else and show that if they had only followed my advice (while not really giving any real advice other than to design and build it so that it doesn’t fall down) the building would have stood for many years.
Sometimes the best way to avoid any blame for anything is to put a stop to any productive work. The building did not fall down because I stopped them from building it wrong so I saved the building by not building it.
Also a manager is expected to be fully knowledgeable about all thinks, engineering, contracts, business, finance marketing etc. An engineer is usually not to concerned about admitting ignorance in areas outside their field and deferring to someone who knows. Most civil engineers I know let the electrical engineers design the wiring.
The result can be seen as illogical from an engineering perspective but are logical when analyzed in terms of the managerial constraints and goals.
Of course the best managers make sure that the building gets built, does not fall down and will meet the need of the users for the design life of the structure. This requires not only being able to think like an engineer and to respect the physics of the structure but the managerial concerns of people who failed high school physics and have simply no understanding of design.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: moonlighting and ethics
I can buy everything I need to start an engineering firm this afternoon at office depot. Unlike a lot of businesses the primary asset of an engineering company are people not things or capitol equipment.
A coal mine may have assets of 9 billion tons of unmined coal, it theirfore is managed differently that a service company.
A common problem with "engineering managers" is in their technical training. They deal with science where all things can be known and are predictable. People don't work that way. Some managers manage like they were on a Vulcan star ship and get frustrated when the people don't behave logically like good Vulcans. These managers are frustrating to work for and sometimes fun to watch. Management skills are people skills and some never learn them.
Irstuff. Chronically tired and stressed people have done lots of creative things. History is resplendant with examples. There are lots of examples of well rested, wide awake people who do nothing significant daya after day. Creative people are hard to manage because the first thing you have to do is admit that they may be smarter than you and may do things you can't.
RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
They get a lot out of me anyway--my job used to be done by three other (well-rested) people.
I like to think of it as a "burn and coast" style of productivity.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: moonlighting and ethics
My work would get more out of me if they would provide a cool, quiet room with a cot and permit me a 2-hr siesta in the middle of the day -- they don't.
For that matter, they'd get more out of me by sending my business class rather than cattle class -- they don't.
For as long as they think that I'm worth what I cost, they'll pay me. The moment that they decide that I can be replaced by somebody cheaper, I'm gone.
If they would like to sign (and fund through escrow) a long-term, guaranteed employment contract, I'd be willing to give them say over more of my life -- for now, they get what they pay for, plus another 15% to cover for my preventable inefficiencies.
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RE: moonlighting and ethics
RE: moonlighting and ethics
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