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Spin of Architect Post
5

Spin of Architect Post

Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
What are the basic requirements of becoming an architect? Just curious, I thought these were artsy types with no education in engineering.
This question was prompted by the previous post in this forum. Thanks

RE: Spin of Architect Post

Your question is almost too insulting to answer. I can assure you that all accredited architectural programs require math to Calc 2 or Differential Equations, Construction Means and Methods, Statics and occasionally Dynamics, Strength of Materials, Graphic Communication, and Basic Electrical, HVAC and Plumbing design.

After a 5-year professional degree, most States require a 2-3 year appreticeship while requiring experience in a number of design areas including master planning, programming, building design, construction administration and health, safety and welfare (codes).

After your apprenticeship, you must pass a 9-part, 37.5-hour long test given over 4 days.  As I recall, there are about 3 sections that deal with structures, General, Long-span and Lateral Forces.  New York and California have an extra portion to their State exams.

After all of that, you are ready to begin your career as an architect.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Spin of Architect Post

Most of the architects I've worked with are very grounded, reasonable, and knowledgeable people.  There are those "design architects" who think only in terms of forms, lines, and feelings, but they tend largely to be rare--the ones who do the actual work in getting a building built are very down-to-earth and have to know a lot about a lot.

Don't tell anyone I said something nice about architects--I'd hate for that to get out.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

At the university that I went to, the school of architecture was more prestigious, and harder to get into.

I only knew one architecture student while at school, and his work load was certainly as heavy as mine. I am not familiar with the actual courses, but he didn't have any trouble understanding what I was fretting over in my courses.

You are correct in one respect, they do not have an education in engineering - they have one in architecture.

The appreciation of artistic form is important. And, I think it is imporant in architecture since an architect's work is out there to be seen by all. Something that is aesthetically pleasing adds a certain value to the "neighborhood". A downtown of all square cube buildings would look no different than the light industry and warehouse section of town - and no one would be proud to point to that and say "I live here."

RE: Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
Sounds to me like its a civil program with some building planning, plumbing, and electrical throwed in (hence the fifth year?). I am not undermining the architect just trying to understand what their background may be.

Whats the difference between you (structural) and an architect? Is it that you only concern yourself with the integrity of the building? If an architect can do everything a structural engineer can do, then is it fair to say that if you have a decent architect on a project then your not needed? Again, just trying to understand where all you guys fit in on a building project and I hate to be so simplistic. Thanks.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

By and large, architects do not possess the depth of knowledge of structural engineering to render me unnecessary.  They know enough to understand why I do what I do, but usually could not do it themselves.  The same applies to electrical, mechanical, and civil.  They are familiar with the concepts, and could probably do some basic design.  That's why architects can sign drawings for a building in some states, usually up to a certain size.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

Architects often work WITH civil/structural engineers. They each have their specialties.

Architects/civil/structural often work with other disciplines in construction projects, such as electrical (all those lights), mechanicl (HVAC), pipers (all those flushes), interior designers (red walls anyone), etc.

If the other disciplines were not useful, we would soon not have many of them.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

2
Architecture is the study of space and how it relates to the human environment.

They design the space, the engineers design the building to define and separate the space.

It is a rigorous program with a lot of technical content combined with artistic expression. At the university that I attended the program was a 3 year bachelor leading to either a degree in Interior design or environmental studies. This was the individual concentrating on either the exterior or interior aspects of the space.

Then came a 2 year Masters degree. This was a rigorous program with a lot of practical construction aspects to it.

Their workload will make most engineering workloads look like a day off. A lot of it is grunt work, making building models and drawing and sketching in the early years but the time demand is considerable.

Most architects that I know are very dedicated hard working people with a lot of practical knowledge of how the building process works and how buildings are actually constructed.

I have actually found that architects are more knowledgeable about all aspects of engineering as it relates to buildings than are engineers with respect to the other engineering disciplines.

If they are pain in the a$$ prima donnas it is because they have a vision of how the completed project will look and function. They want that vision to be realized and not changed by someone who does not share that vision.

Like most people you get back from them the same treatment that you give them. Talk to them about their vision and how the space relates and you will find them knowledgeable professionals.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Spin of Architect Post

I would argue that the difference between design and engineering in the construction industry is massively different to that in other industries.  Buildings are not disposable mass-market products (except of course in America, where they are replaced every few years!).

RE: Spin of Architect Post

I would put forth:

Good design usually leads to good engineering, and
Good engineering usually results in good design.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

I work in an A/E firm, I'm an E who works with A's.

A few comments in response to RDK:
RDK: Most architects that I know are very dedicated hard working people with a lot of practical knowledge of how the building process works and how buildings are actually constructed.

I have actually found that architects are more knowledgeable about all aspects of engineering as it relates to buildings than are engineers with respect to the other engineering disciplines.

LHA: I agree, with clarification.  They, by and large, do have an excellent handle on Structural and MEP.  But they know almost nothing about site/civil.  Also, they don't care.  They will propose something totally illegal - too tall, to many antennae towers, in floodplain, over a major gas and water line (I am currently bailing ours out of this one), unaccessable parking, etc.  They then leave the Civil to stammer and sweat in front of the Planning Commission/Supervisors/Zoning Hearing Board/DOT.

RDK: If they are pain in the a$$ prima donnas it is because they have a vision of how the completed project will look and function. They want that vision to be realized and not changed by someone who does not share that vision.

LHA:  That is good insight, I never really thought about what makes them "pain in the a$$ prima donnas".  And it will make me try to see things their way better.  BUT (as opposed to a$$;-o) that doesn't excuse the way they tend to act toward us site/civils, without whom they don't build a toolshed, much less "that vision to be realized".

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
Well thanks for the clarification. It sounds like the architects are the ones who could be replaced with other disciplines.
So are architects considered engineers then? Sounds like only 3 years of college is necessary according to RDK. Perhaps the 3 yrs is for interior designer then another two years gets you the education (not experience) you need to be an architect.
Based on the little I know, I would say they are not engineers (three years of college to be an interior designer- can't imagine to much engineering curriculum here but it probably comes in the remaining two years).

I am not down on any architect, don't even know any. At the risk of getting slammed, it sounds as though they are glorified designers (drafters) with knowledge out of school equivalent to a designer with 5-10 years of experience. I am sure this is false but based on what I have heard in here, it sounds true.



RE: Spin of Architect Post

I always thought that architects were something special. That is until I worked with them. In the public works design world that I was involved with, the architects were generally treated "second class" to the civils. This may have been due to the facts that the civils were in control/charge. I was a little dismayed at what the actual design work that did day to day. Bathroom remodels, roofing, flooring, textures, rather mundane grungy work from an electrical point of view. In this environment, the lead architect, craving to express the artistic expression would include a brown horizontal strip on all off his new building and major re-habs. This eventually caught the eye of someone up. He was told to stop this practice. The term glorified draftsman was closer to the truth. And the sad part is these guys are stuck in this rut because architects are not as versitile as engineers.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

buzzp,

An Architect deals with issues that involve how people & buildings interact. Things like building size & configuration, room size & layout, location of doors, elevators, stairs (involving the ability to get in, get out, walk around, evacuate) and a whole lot of other issues that overlap with engineering. Engineers involved in building design deal with the forces of nature (wind, gravity, earthquake, heating & cooling, power & lighting, etc.). The two professions have a great deal of overlap and some states recognize this and view them as equals, legally. Both are Design Professionals and both deserve equal respect. There is also the discipline of Architectural Engineering, which brings together Civil, Structural, Mechanical and Electrical under one umbrella (With respect to building design).

RE: Spin of Architect Post

There are various types of achitects as well.  Cal Pol SLO has (or had) a 4-yr BS Architectural Engineering that would allow you to get a PE.

It's also about POWER; who has it, and when.  Prior to the detailed design, the architect has the power and vision.  Furthermore, the architect's reputation is built on the look and feel of the building.  If that's changed because the engineering messed with the design, the architect is out of his next job.  The Kodak theater's recent annoyance of overly shiny exterior material is a case where the architect had a vision that would have been fine if the theater were located where there were no neighbors to complain about the glare.

TTFN



RE: Spin of Architect Post

I was surprised to see the 3 years for an architecture bachelors. At my school, it is 4 years. Or, it could be a typo by RDK (we've all done that).


Quote (EddyC):

The two professions have a great deal of overlap and some states recognize this and view them as equals, legally. Both are Design Professionals and both deserve equal respect.

There are definitely overlap. I know that within certain sizes (don't know the sizes), either an architect's or civil engineer's stamp may be used to stamp the drawing. One example that I know of is my residential residence.

Quote (buzzp):

So are architects considered engineers then?

buzz, like I said, an architect is not an engineer, hence, he/she will NOT have an engineering education/background.

If an architect was not useful in the market, then they will slowly be phased out.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
Thanks for the replies. I understand better about what they do. Still in the grey on any formal training that may be required but thats ok.

There is a lot to be said for who is charge (discipline) and who is the second class citizen. I have worked under an EE and therefore, EE's were treated better than mechanicals. I worked for a mechanical and EEs were treated differently. Human nature I guess.

Seems the architectural engineering better be a long program if they cover all that material. I suppose they don't go into the detail as other, more refined disciplines like EE, ME, CE. However, it seems somewhat dangerous to teach them how to design all aspects of a building without the more detailed knowledge of the system they are designing (mechanical, electrical, structural, etc). Anyway, its friday and I am going home.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

Buzzp

Not 3 years but 5 years Batchelor(3) plus Masters degree(2).

Some people work as assistants to architects for a while between the two degrees but usually they go on for the master’s and achieve professional status.

That’s more than engineering takes for academic preparation.


They are true professionals in every sense of the word, at least the 50 or 60 that I have worked with over the years.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Spin of Architect Post

At my uni in the UK in the 70s an architecture degree was 4 or 5 years, engineering was 3. They took a lot of our first year courses, so their maths would have had to be pretty good, for non engineers.

I imagine it can be a terrific field to work in.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

According to several lists out there, Cornell University has the best undergraduate architecture program in the US.  

Their program is 5 years just for the bachelor's degree, not a combined bachelor's/master's.

On the other hand, they learn relatively little about structural design and other engineeringy stuff.  They learn a lot about "design" from an aesthetic/human side.  The idea for the rest of it is (a) that's what engineers are for (b) if you really need to know the "hard" (vs. soft, not vs. easy) stuff, you can learn that in your apprenticeship.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Spin of Architect Post

The architects I work with are the "Design Team Leaders." They interpret the client's requirements, generate building geometry, room-by-room requirements, etc. Then the engineers of many disciplines are brought in to a) capture the architect's intent, b) make the architect's intent work, and c) ask questions if the architect's intent needs "refining."

RE: Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
I get it now. My perception was not that far off. Seems a bad idea to let them completely design a building though, with no one other discipline to sign off on (in some states as someone said).

RE: Spin of Architect Post

Just as bad as letting any one engineer discipline sigh off on everything.

Construction is a team event.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
Agreed RDK. Should not happen. But if they the architect is not being taught all the details like a structural would, then how can they let them sign off on it? Afterall, the architect has not been through a proper engineering curriculum (as I understand it) teaching all the fine details. And to let them sign off on electrical is just as bad.
If a civil, mechanical, etc can sign an electrical drawing then this is a bad idea. Same goes for electricals signing civils. I am sure it is legal in some areas but still not a very good idea in my mind.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

When I asked an architect once about his education as far as engineering, he said they had some basic engineering in school, like basic beam design and such, but nothing very in-depth.  That is, of course, why structural engineers have a job.

I think buzzp hit it right on.  It is legal in some areas for architects to sign off on structural drawings, and probably others as well.  While it is legal, it is not a good idea imo.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

My wife is an Architect. And she does not sign off on Structural. A structural engineer does (for anything beyond 2 story wood framed residential)...

Architects are taught structural. Not to the debth that an SE is, but just they same, it is a requirement at most professional architecture schools. This is so they can interact with area specific professionals...

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

RE: Spin of Architect Post

The best book that I ever found that explained mechanical and electrical aspects of construction was in the architectural portion of the university bookstore.

They are usually the lead consultant for a reason, they are good at integrating all aspects of a project into a coherent whole.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Spin of Architect Post

(OP)
RDK, your a civil so I would not expect your perception of a 'good' mechanical or electrical book to be the same as an EE or ME who works in commercial building projects, even though you have years of experience.  

The fact is, they should not sign off on the whole project (at least not all the detailed electrical and mechanical drawings) and neither should any engineer.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

Ultimately somebody has to sign it off. Somebody has to decide on, and accept responsibility for, the final compromise.

I've worked with enough prima-donnas who insist that their system is the one that matters most to know that most, gifted, engineers cannot be relied on to do this.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Spin of Architect Post

My definition of a good book on mechanical and electrical is one that gives an overview of the systems and their interrelationship with the other components of the building. It is definitely not a design book for the systems but one that leads to a better understanding of the basic relationships of the buildings.


This is the role of someone responsible for the integration of the building. They do not have to know precisely how to size a air handling system but need to know the factors to be considered in terms of final outcomes of say one big AHU and 30 smaller zone systems.

They have to be able to see these factors and be able to intelligently discuss them with the mechanical designers and to understand the impact of these on occupant comfort, cost and operation of the facility.

That’s what architects do. While sometimes they are prima donnas who can be a major PITA they do this in general very well and are needed for the construction of any building that is not strictly an industrial facility.

After all often the electrical guys can be as major a PITA as can the architects, at least from a civil viewpoint. I imagine that the electrical guys say much the same about us civils as well.

It comes down to professionalism. A true professional knows his limitations and gets help in those areas where he is incompetent. (in terms of lacking ability not the negative connotations of useless) A true professional also makes an attempt to take into consideration the concerns of the other professionals working alongside them.

Anyone who, despite any legal right to sign off on something, who signs off on something that they do not have adequate knowledge, education and experience is IMHO acting unprofessionally and should be subject to discipline by the authority having jurisdiction over their profession.


Like I said construction is a team activity. No team can function if all positions are played by one person with no assistance from the other needed disciplines.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Spin of Architect Post

I came across this forum while doing a bit of online research and thought I would add a response. I signed in as "Computer" on this forum b/c when I'm not on site, that's what I sit in front of.

As an Architect, I'll let you know the educational requirements. for the most part, the previous responses are valid.  But here is more detailed truth:

Education requirements for becoming a Registered Architect (free to stamp/sign your own drawings) vary from state to state.  check out National Council of Arch. Registration Board
www.ncarb.org.  

1.)  5-year professional degree(undergraduate in Architecture) + 3 year internship after college + 9 part registration exam = Registered Architect with NCARB certification.  this means you can be registered in all U.S. states and U.S. territories.  This is the most current and common degree option.

2.)  4-year pre-professional architecture degree (i.e. Bachelor of Environmental Design) or undergraduate degree in a completely unrelated field (i.e. English) + Masters in Architecture + 3 year internship + exam = Registered Architect with NCARB certification.  Next common option.

3.)  No architectural degree + 8 year internship + registration exam = Registered Architect.  this means you can only be registered in the state you take the exam in.  few states allow this:  TX, AZ, CA, WA.  this option is being phased out because there are way too many potential arch's out there.  

4.)  4-year pre-professional architecture degree + 4 or 5 year internship + exam = Registered Architect.  this is being phased out too, but not yet.  this option was common prior to the 5-year professional degree being offered.

5.)  5.5-year Masters in Arch.  This is fairly new in a few state schools - Texas Tech and WSU to name a couple.  You apply to grad school in your 3rd or 4th year of a pre-professional architecture program.  once accepted, you spend another 3 semesters merging a Master's in.  It's handy now b/c there are a lot of emerging arch interns in the field.  the bar is being raised each year in terms of credentials vs. experience.

In school with a 4-year undergrad. arch. degree I took a semester each of Calc 1, 2, General Structures, Lateral Forces, Concrete/Steel/Wood framing, Mechanical/HVAC Systems, Electrical.  And of course materials and methods thru the Construction Science department.  then there were the design studios.  I have been working for 10 years now.

Real world = small percentage of time is spent designing a project.  Majority of time and budget is spent holding on to that design, then taking those overview engineering/ construction courses from college and using that knowledge in dialogue with the engineers and contractor.  they already think architects have their heads up their butts - in lala design land.  so archs and engineers all have to talk the same language to have an efficient and smart design to begin with, and a good building as a result.

with M. Arch degrees being more common nowadays for architects, engineers pay less in tuition prior to becoming a Professional.  and they are paid a lot more, once in the profession.  starting pay for architects is the same regardless of whatever type of arch degree you have - low.  however, architecture is supposed to be a "sexy" profession in that very fictional Fountainhead way.

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