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Best languages??

Best languages??

Best languages??

(OP)
Starting the path towards an ME degree this semester, and I cannot decide which language to take.

I've decided that French, or German would be beneficial, although spanish is usually a good option here in the states...

I currently work for Bombadier, in Total Transit Systems on the Las Vegas Monorail, and I plan to stick with this company.

Thanks in advance,

Tod

RE: Best languages??

is foreign language a requirement for your degree?  I'm assuming it is because of your question, but the reason I ask is because many folks I know with engineering degrees (myself included) were exempt from the FL requirements because they were pursuing an engineering degree.

RE: Best languages??

With Hispanics being the fastest growing ethnic group in the US Spanish would be a good option.

On the other hand Bombardier is a French Canadian company and a lot of the people in the headquarters in Montreal are francophone.

I have had their defense services division as a client; another engineering firm that did a lot of work for them got the contract in large part because the head of that company spoke French. (He was an American as well.)

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Best languages??

How about Japanese? You'd be able to watch Godzilla movies and Ultraman without the dubbing!

What's the language most of your customers speak?

RE: Best languages??


I’d stick to one of the European languages with a lot of common terms and sentence structure simular to English.

You start out with an 800 word French vocabulary since the words are similar between French and English. I imagine that Spanish would also have a similar amount of overlap. German perhaps a little less.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Best languages??

Don't bother with German.  They all speak English.  I have not met a German engineer who was not fluent in English, even in technical matters.  I grew up i a German-speaking household, and the language has been of little benefit professionally.

I am currently learning Mandarin.  Big commitment.  Far more difficult than picking up another Indo-European language.  However, the possibilities are endless with even marginal fluency.  Word has it Japanese is somewhat less difficult to learn.

Currently I am in Suzhou, just west of Shanghai, babysitting molds for a product launch.  A little Mandarin helps to chip away at the language barrier from my side of the wall.

Many Germans here.  They all speak English.  Sometimes if I doubt a Chinese person is comprehending what I am saying in English, I'll toss in a German sentence.  If they keep nodding and saying "OK", it means trouble.

RE: Best languages??

French will serve you well if you want to stick with Bombardier.

French and Spanish are sufficiently similar that once you learn one you will be able to read the other with probably better than 80% comprehension.  Either serves as an excellent base to learn the other.

RE: Best languages??

Hey Tick,

How is the Mandarin coming?

By now I'm sure you've figured out how important the tones are.  Now, think about this.  The Chinese have regional accents just like every other nationality.

Japanese is much easier because it doen't have the tones to deal with.  Just say it like you heard it and you will be understood.

Eventually you will learn to identify a lack of comprehension without having to switch to German,

RE: Best languages??

re: Mandarin

Understanding tones actually was not difficult.  I had some vocal training which helps in learning how to make unfamiliar sounds, plus good relative pitch skills (not nearly perfect pitch, though).

Regional accent are tough.  I've been flustered by the Suzhou accent, "s" for "sh" switch.  Suzhou has its own language, but most under 40 also speak standard Mandarin (with that vexing anti-lisp).

I've never been wrong on the "German switch test".  People I've used it on have always tested positive for non-comprehension, so I'm doing well at detecting.  I also use it as an opportunity to make the point that I do want to be questioned if I am not understood.

RE: Best languages??

I would say French, not only because I am one of them, but because it may be usefull for you if you stay at Bombardier.

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer Consultant
France

RE: Best languages??

Regional accents is not the main issue with Chinese. They do exist, but what most people run into is actually another "language".

For example. The 2 most common "chinese" spoken in the US and Canadian chinese restaurants are Cantonese and Mandarin. They are as different from each other as English and Russian. Some common words, but very few. If you have ever tried to speak Mandarin to a Cantonese only speaker, you will get some confused looks. I once order "clams" and got "crab". Oh well. Maybe it was the engish accent.

The funny part is, if you write what you are trying to say (in chinese), they can all read it the same.

RE: Best languages??

re: mandarin

Definitely incentive to work on the writing.  Can communicate then in multiple languages, including Japanese to a certain extent.  Also generates a whole new lexicon for shorthand notetaking.

Rounding out my 3rd (and final?) week in Suzhou.  Pronunciation improving with practice.  actually getting straight answers to my questions without the "Holy cow, round-eyes trying to speak putonghua!"  Hotel staff has been very helpful.

BTW, when in Suzhou, I recommend Southern Cross for Mexican food.  Truly an international city!

RE: Best languages??

The trend here in the SF Bay area is to teach Mandarin to new engineers.  The problem is the availability of qualitfied instructors, even in an area with a high percentage of Chinese residents.

Spanish is useful in construction and restaurant design, but I've managed so far in both of those fields without being completely fluent.

I speak German and French and have not found a big use for either except perhaps socially in a marketing role.  Same goes for the little tid bit of Russian and Japanese that I know.

I am currently learning Arabic but have not advanced sufficiently to put together a complete sentance, thanks in part to leaning the alphabet first.  I was surprised, however, at how much I comprehend when I hear native speakers.  Again, not much use in a technical sense, but I have found a use for knowing some Arabic when marketing new work.

Bottom line, if this is your first foreign language, pick one that suits you first.  If you have a preference for one language over the other for another reason such as family heritage or an interest in a hobby where one language may be of use, you will be extra motivated to learn.   

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Best languages??

I work with a Japanese gentlement, and with the exception of some "core" words, the Japanese script is not really compatible with Chinese anymore he says. Oh well. At least the major food words are compatible. If that fails, I draw pictures. That and a whole lot of hand waving usually results in a pretty good meal.


RE: Best languages??

My father found much common ground with his Japanese customers due to his being German.  Germany and Japan historically had close ties (long before the dreaded "Axis").  The more senior chemists were either educated in Germany or had German textbooks in college.

A friend of mine lived in Japan for a few years.  His Japanese doctor kept his notes in German.

RE: Best languages??

Quote:

if you write what you are trying to say (in chinese), they can all read it the same.

True perhaps on the mainland.  However the "official" character set of the mainland Chineese is a simplified set of Kanjii characters.

Taiwan, Hong Kong and other Mandarin and Cantonise speaking nations still use the traditional character set (as do the Japanese).  I suspect that in Hong Kong many can now read both.

Occasionally I will get a newspaper in the simplified character set for my wife by mistake instead of one in traditional characters, only to be reminded that she can't read them.

RE: Best languages??

Grindinghalt,

You have said you plan to stick to your current job.  If you don't have any other preferences on learning one languge over the other for personal reasons, then see which language would help you in work.  Do you have a technical collaboration with some foreign company or do you have suppliers/vendors from a foreign company.  It maybe worthwhile to learn a language that can also help you in work, unless you have some other preferences.

HVAC68

RE: Best languages??

There are "Cantonese" speaking nations?  Where?

Closest thing I know about is that my father claims Vietnamese is modified Cantonese.  Sure the sounds are similar, but...

Personally, I think Cantonese and Mandarin are way closer to each other than Russian and English.  Russian and English do not share any recent or semi-recent roots, whereas, Cantonese and Mandarin are relatively similar, both in general and in grammar, at least, for the words and phrases I come across.

Ni hao mah?
Nay ho ma?  

Gung hay fat choy!

TTFN



RE: Best languages??

Mint Julep,

Yes, the written word in mainland China is starting to evolve, as do most languages (differences between english in England and US, such as aluminium and aluminum?). Most readers however can usually figure out one from the other. The divergence is still relatively new.

The Japanese script has undergone the simplified script much earlier. My father's generation is roughly the last generation to learn the old script. The current Japanese script is a simplied script - sort of where China seems to be headed.

Quote (IRStuff):

There are "Cantonese" speaking nations?  Where?

IRstuff, yes, there are Cantonese speaking nations. winky smile

Canton was once a separate country/city state. Actually, China wasn't moving towards being a single nation until the first emporer Qin.

There are many "nations" that consider themselves as a nation different than the current geo-political demarcation. Depending on where you are, think of:
- the Czech and Slovak nations during Czechoslovakia days
- the entire state of Texas it seems and "Red Sox Nation"
- the Geordies in in Tyneside


Quote (IRstuff):

Russian and English do not share any recent or semi-recent roots

How recent is recent? From Wikipedia:

Quote (Wikipedia):

Russian belongs to the family of Indo-European languages, and is therefore related to Sanskrit, Persian, Greek, and Latin, as well as the modern Germanic, Romance, and Celtic languages, including English, French, and Irish, respectively.

Many Cantonese and Mandarine now use the same phrases because they are in much more contact. As I have said earlier, most chinese can read the same written word. What I didn't mention is that the written word is not what they are saying. In Cantonese, there are spoken words for which there is no written words. People say it one way and write it another way.

Quote (IRstuff):

Personally, I think Cantonese and Mandarin are way closer to each other than Russian and English.

Okay. I'll take your word for it.

RE: Best languages??

In any case, Chinese might be a good choice, particularly if you think there might be a possibility of doing manufacturing in China.  

It would seem that most low-cost manufacturing in Asia has shifted from the traditional locations of 20 yrs ago, Korea, Japan and Taiwan and moved further westward and southward.

TTFN



RE: Best languages??

If you are working with French speakers, taking French may be a good idea as you will have an opportunity to speak and use it.

The easiest way to learn a language is to use it - constantly. That is my experience.

RE: Best languages??

I used to be able to speak German, I tried to relearn it, but didn't get very far, it is actually closer to English than French or Spanish, since the latter two are Latin based and the former two are Germanic/Celtic/Saxon based.
I'm studying Spanish now and find it very similar to Italian, French and my own native Polish, since they are all Latin based.

I did study Mandarin for about 5 years, I actually went to Chinese high school for 5 years, I'm rusty now. All I can say about Mandarin is to learn by practice if you want to do well. The tones are hard to get right, but at least the language is logical, not like this crazy English rubbish ;)

Personally I think that at present the best languages to learn are Spanish and Mandarin, however western Asia and eastern Europe are on the rise, so in my opinion good future languages to know are Polish, Romanian, Czech, Thai, Vietnamese or Cambodian, by the time you learn them they should be useful.

RE: Best languages??

It seems you are working or looking to work in a manufacturing/product related field.  I see positions all the time for a candidate that can speak Chinese or some form of it.  I worked in product design for about 5 years and a lot of our engineers were going to China for a month at a time.  Some of our mfg was also outsourced to Mexico so Spanish is also a good one to learn if you want to stick with manufacturing.

RE: Best languages??

Personally in the southern US I would stick to Spanish. A large part of actually learning a language is to have opportunities to hear various native speakers and to interact with them.

Spanish is the only language that you will have this sort of opportunity to practice where you live.

French would be helpful since you work for a French-Canadian company but one thing about Canadian francophones, if your accent is not to their standard they will usually refuse to talk French to you.

This is also true about French people in the mother country. A friend was a military attaché to the Canadian embassy in France and was a Quebecer who had French as his native tongue. The French refused to talk French to him since he had a Canadian accent. They would only speak to him in English.

Every educated Quebecer that I have ever met speaks very passable English so French is not needed to get along with them. You will mostly be dealing with the managers of Bombardier and they all speak much better English than your French will be for a long time.

If you are in manufacturing you will have to speak with the factory workers and floor foremen. In Mexico they may not have much English skills and speaking the local language in a foreign country is a sign of respect.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Best languages??

[someone pushed the linguistics button...]

Ashereng--you take issue with IRStuff's statement of "Russian and English do not share any recent or semi-recent roots," and quote Wikipedia, diagnosing them both as Indo-Euroean languages.  They're about as related as you and an iguana--you're both vertebrates.

Unless you use "recent" to mean "within the last several millennia", then no, they don't share any recent or semi-recent roots.  If there ever was a single proto-Indo-European language, it broke up four thousand years ago.  Slavic (Russian is a Slavic language) turns up about three thousand years ago.  Germanic (English is a Germanic language) turns up about half a millennium later.

Middle Chinese, on the other hand, didn't differentiate into the various Chinese languages till about a thousand years ago.  The various Chinese languages are within the same group within the Sino-Tibetan family.  (If my taxonomy analogy is valid at all, then it's like saying they're both mammals, rather than just both vertebrates.)

For what that's worth.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Best languages??

Choose French because it comes in handy in French speaking countries. They generally prefer that you speak French there. In Paris when seeking directions I was ignored when I tried English.

The one exception was in Geneva, SW where a bank teller rudely asked that I speak in my best language. P...K!

RE: Best languages??

Hahaha crazy swiss bastards, I like Europe, everyone's so grumpy and rude. I like to laugh at those people...mostly b/c it makes them grumpier and ruder, which is funnier.

Speak to the French in German and the Swiss in French to piss them off, or better yet use a completely foreign language to really throw them off.

RE: Best languages??

The quickest way to get a Frenchman to speak English is to inflict your tortured Francais on him.  He'll switch to English just so they don't have to listen to your French.

RE: Best languages??

In Tunisa recently it was explained to us that the schools take languages very seriously.

Starting out they speak Arabic, then French. Then they learn English. The elective language is now mostly Mandarin (our guide explained that the Chinese are about the one country that hasn't occupied them so they are expecting them soon!)

The point being that langauges don't sem to be treated seriously in "western schools" yet the time to learn them is as young as possible when the brain apparently has an apptitude for learning.

Tougher to learn languages late in life.

The serious point behind the Tunisian example is that China is the big growth area and Mandarin could be the most useful language choice for the furture.... except... it may prove to be just as useful as others find German. In the Chinese school system Russian was the preferred foreign langauge until the political parting of the ways after which English took over.

The chances are that in the work environment you will be dealing (more certainly in the future) with fluent english speakers.

But don't let that be an excuse for not learning languages. The value of knowing even a few words of your host nations language cannot be overstated in the social context i.e. when socialising within a business context.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Best languages??

Good point about how seriously languages are taken in the schools.

I went to elementary school in Israel.  We started Arabic and English classes both in grade 4 (age 9).  By the time I left, they were starting English in grade 1 (age 6).  I think Arabic was still grade 4, but they may have pushed that back as well.  But that's at least two foreign languages started by age 9, with I believe optional electives for other languages at the high school level.

Then I came to the States.  Only the very top students got to start foreign language class in grade 7 (age 12).  The rest, if they were eligible at all, couldn't start till grade 9.  And I have a vague memory of some parent complaining that students were too young to be expected to master such things.

Ridiculous.  First of all, the less bright the kid, the earlier a start they need on the language.  Why give the smarter kids a head start?  Second, even 12 is getting pretty late.

It's absolutely critical to get a second language at an early age.  After the second language, the rest come much easier.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Best languages??

The main problem with age is that your brain's ability to learn and distinguish new sounds is mostly done by around age 8.  This makes it difficult, but not impossible, to adequately learn new languages.

This is very evident when you realize that you can usually recognize a foreign speaker's native tongue strictly from his accent when speaking English.  Once your brain is trained in a language, your hearing and speaking is tuned to that language.

TTFN



RE: Best languages??

Two cents up:

I graduated from high school in 2000 and attended FL public schools from 5th grade up.  In grades 6-8, you had to take at least one foreign langauge class, your options were French, Spanish, or English.  Then in high school you needed two additional terms of a foreign language, same choices but with the addition of Latin.  In college as an engineer you didn't need any foreign language credits beyond what I had from high school, although I took some Japanese anyways.  

I think it's pretty well scientific fact that below the age of 10 you have the best chance of learning another language and after that is just gets harder.  I also agree that in the US other languages aren't much of a priority, but I think that may just be because English is the 'ascendent' language in the world (at least for now.)

Finally, to answer the original post - I would go with Spanish, anywhere in the southern US you will have a chance to practice.  Also it will give you a jumpstart with any other 'Romance' language like Italian and French.  Plus they use the English alphabet, without any foolish British spelling!

RE: Best languages??

Hah, please substitute 'German' for English in the second sentence of my above post - all this language talk has my head spinning.  

RE: Best languages??

I remember having to switch from Spanish to German in senior year to keep my GPA up.  

"aus ausser bei mit nach zeit von zu gegenuber" every morning for a whole year winky smile

TTFN



RE: Best languages??

A few years back I went to the Indonesian factory of a Belgian company to witness some testing. The primary market for their product out of this plant was China. I asked if knowledge of the Chinese language was needed. The answer was no, they conduct all business in English. Each party speaks their native language plus English. My high school French is long gone, so I thought it was nice that the international language of commerce resembled my native language. I say resembled because they teach the queen's English rather than my American version.

RE: Best languages??

Perhaps the two best languages to learn are the American and British versions of English then ;)

Actually they do differ significantly, I moved to Canada from a country with British leanings, I could barely understand these crazy Canucks. I do feel fortunate that I can decipher both dialects now, although a thick Northern English or Scottish accent still escapes me, my wife (who has never left Canada) understands it with ease though...hmmm funny that.

RE: Best languages??

guten Tag,

At work during the past two months I have used French, German and Flemish along with English. (Where do I work? in Appalachia.)

Granted, English is the de facto language of business, however being able to speak, read and understand the Clients's/Customer's or Supplier's native language has proven very helpful.

Au revoir

Vita sine litteris mors est.

RE: Best languages??

English is the global business language.  Indeed many Europeans, and most Scandinavians, that I've met seem to speak it better than many of my countryman!

Surely Chinese is the language to learn.  China and India are going to be the economic powers of this century and the Indians already speak English as a legacy of British colonialism.

I can see the reason for Yanks to learn Spanish.  It's already almost a second national language in some parts.

French and Italian are the nice 'romantic' languages, so will probably always be popular.

For mine, Chinese is the way to go.  Even if your Chinese counterpart speaks good English, your ability to speak some Chinese will not go un-noticed and will certainly be appreciated.

RE: Best languages??

Am I the only one wondering what the op has to do with ethics?

RE: Best languages??

My early experience in the RC Church gave me the ability to decipher the Latin conversations in 'Passion of Christ,' even the ones that had no subtitles. It led me to re-study Latin in the home. Now I know why the classical private schools insist on Latin as part of the curriculum.

English, as they say, is German with a good dose of latinizing. Old English recited sounds very much like German, and I understood it. I heard it on the PBS special on English.

RE: Best languages??

Depends where you want to expand yourself further.
As a European, I'd suggest German or French, if the European market is what you're looking at when it comes to your career. Nordic languages are a pain to learn, tho they are useful too (Finland is THE engineering centre of Europe, even if they're keeping it quiet). I'd not be too enthusiastic about Spanish; it's spoken by a small number of people (unless you're looking at South America).
Since you're in the states, tho, I'd also consider Japanese as a VERY good idea.
Basically, think where and what you want to be in 5 years, rouchly choose an industry, and then look at where this industry is the strongest, and start that language.

RE: Best languages??

Well, there are almost twice as many Spanish speakers in Spain only as there are Norvegians + Swedish + Finnish + Danish... and the latter all speak English to a reasonable extent. And about Finnish, it's probably easier to start with Martian smile

RE: Best languages??

I wasn't reffering to a total number of people speaking Spanish. I was reffering to people in the engineering industr/y/ies.
The point of what I was saying is, that if you're interested in working on something that's "big" in USA, Finland and Norway, it's quite redicilous to learn Mandarin... Although in near future, learning Mandarin Chinese MIGHT be a great investment in yourself.
And it's MUCH more difficult than Finnish OR Martian. winky smile

RE: Best languages??

Hello,

My advice, choose a language that you like. It always is easier to learn something that you truely enjoy.

I learned French simply because I like French music and find French culture to be very intersting. Never expected it to help my career, but now it is opening doors here in Canada.

Cheers,

Joseph

RE: Best languages??

I took Fortran 77.
I'd try Visual Basic or maybe a version of C.

Ed

RE: Best languages??

In my country, I started English when I was 9, in school. It went up until I was 16. Then at 11, I started French (also until I was 16). Now, after some discussions, the goverment finally is starting the English lessons right at the primary school (still under test).
I learned Spanish from TV and by going in holidays to Spain in the Summer "hablar con las chicas".
Time to time there are some "nacionalists" coming and complianing that in my country we don't defend our native language and we should translate the foreign TV programs instead of only use subtitles. I found this very useful to improve your accent and to get used to the sound of different languages.
Someone refered that for engineering degrees there is no credit for foreign languages. I think that this is wrong. Engineers should take some foreign languages courses.
My last challenge is Mandarin, but this one is a tough bone.
"Wo shuo yi diar Putonghua"

RE: Best languages??

MedEng,
Your country sounds like it's on the road to prosperity, the best way to thrive is to understand your competition/customers, no better way to do that than to understand the culture.

Typically nationalist/isolationist countries have experienced severe economic trouble, USA in the 1930s, Japan in the early 20th century.
In my opinion it's always valuable to understand your own culture but understanding your neighbours' culture is golden, especially if your neighbour only understands his own culture.

I also agree that language courses should be taught to engineers, English is the predominant engineering and science language (with some Latin) but it always helps to see a problem from the clients perspective ie. from their cultural point of view.

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