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Educational standards ??? What standards ??
10

Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)

Quote:



http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=11300002RKP5

Nearing a diploma, most college students cannot handle many complex but common tasks, from understanding credit card offers to comparing the cost per ounce of food. Those are the sobering findings of a study of literacy on college campuses, the first to target the skills of students as they approach the start of their careers.

More than 50 percent of students at four-year schools and more than 75 percent at two-year colleges lacked the skills to perform complex literacy tasks.

That means they could not interpret a table about exercise and blood pressure, understand the arguments of newspaper editorials, compare credit card offers with different interest rates and annual fees or summarize results of a survey about parental involvement in school.

How did these illiterates ever get out of high school?

Presumably some of them are graduating with engineering degrees.


It doesn’t say much for the future of a knowledge based society does it?


Quote:


Almost 20 percent of students pursuing four-year degrees had only basic quantitative skills. For example, the students could not estimate if their car had enough gas to get to the service station. About 30 percent of two-year students had only basic math skills.


Anyone want to explain a complex technical idea to a group made up of these people?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Scary isn't it!  I would hope that there aren't any engineering grads in that motely group.  Since the article said "most", I am hoping that the balance of the students could do the math.  Maybe job interviews for entry level engineers should include a physics and math quiz?

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I read a similar artical this weekend.  In that one, they stated that engineering students did score better than the general student population.  It's still a scarey situation, though.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
I did some research and the situation doers not appear to be too different in Canada as it is portrayed in the study as in the US. (No hard data but some comments from Canadian university educators.)

You have to assume that some of these illiterates are in business or political science.

They will be the managers and political leaders guiding the economy and our countries into the period of our retirement.

Sleep well knowing that your future is in their hands!

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I’m sorry, but these students sound like spoiled kids that go to these high priced colleges.  Their parents do everything for them and the students don’t have to worry about money or how to manage their life.  Basically their parents will take care of them just like if they (the students) were still in jr high school.  

But in the student’s defense, you should not judge their ability to take care of them selves to their technical knowledge (which is what they went to school for).  I know some scientists and engineers who have difficulty balancing their check books, but can do some great analysis work.

I wonder how the kids that goes to the public colleges far in this study.  I went to a public college were most of the kids were struggling to put them selves thru college (me included), so money, food, books, a place to live, just trying to figure things out so that they can continue with their education does any better.  

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I don't think we should be surprised by this report.  I suspect we would get similar results from testing government employees, elected officials, sports and media people.

Education focused on test standards gets this kind of result.

The people who write the policies and standards seem to think that factoring polynomials is a critical skill for the general high school student.  Mensuration, basic probability, compound interest, data plotting, and other usefull concepts suffer.

Why is it that the high school football coach is the algebra teacher?

Doug

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

2
None of this should surprise anyone. Colleges in the USA are businesses first and educators second, if at all. Their goal is to maximize the number of students because this is how they make money. They do this by dumbing down the entry requirements and the curriculum. As a society, we've decided to go for a quantity of superficially educated people over a quality small group.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
The report included private and public schools.  Sorry twoballcane but it appears that you misread the report.

Education used to be about teaching people to think. There was a strong emphasis on putting the material into a context that required a person to take a little from course A a little from course B and a lot from course C to come up with an answer.

Now the trend appears to be to simply teach the material as if it existed in a vacuum and did not relate to any other facet of what was learned in other courses. You can solve the quadric equation but can you recognize when it is the appropriate equation to be used to solve a problem and then find the correct coefficients then solve the problem?

A truly educated person would not only have the tools necessary for problem solving but the ability to recognize which tool is the correct one for a specific problem and then apply it correctly so that the answer was meaningful.

Combine that with social promotion in the grade and high school system and a lack of true performance based criteria for passing and we get the mess we have now.

Perhaps the British system where you had to take exams at various stages of your education to get slotted into a stream that invariably lead to a trade or a profession is the answer.

I wouldn’t like to see a system where a person was marked for life based on a test taken at age 16 but something has to be done to ensure that only those with the adequate skills and educational background gets the benefit of an expensive university education and the rights and responsibilities that goes with such an education like entry to a profession.

While engineering students would be better than the average there must be something wrong with a system that produces graduates who cannot pass the FE exam. From what I’ve seen of this exam any student with adequate knowledge and ability to be an engineering graduate and candidate for the profession should be able to pass the exam easily on the first try with proper review and study. Yet about one in four fail it.

You have to also remember that the FE exam is by its nature not a comprehensive exam requiring a student to integrate knowledge from a wide variety of sources to get the correct answer but is a series of questions from a variety of subject areas.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

My opinion about these of reports of high school students not meeting the minimum to graduate is this lies on the parents lack of involvement and discipline.  public schools are tooled to deal with two types of students....those that excel and those that fail to meet the minimum.  Anything in between just falls through the cracks.

Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
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"Coming together is a beginning, staying together is progress, and working together is success." - Henry Ford



 

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

2
Maybe the survey is flawed?

There is insufficient information to determine what the questions were (if you ask a leading question, you get a leading answer), who the test subjects are (random and through out all the universities in the US?), what the sample pool size is (how many institutions were sampled), what the accuracy claim of the results are, etc.

I am a bit suspicious that should this be true (taken at face value), then what is happening to the rest of the non first world nations with even less access to education?

This article certainly makes for attention grabbing.

After using some of my "complex literacy" skills to understand the arguments of this newspaper's editorials/publication's article, comparing it to some general observations, adding in some pesonal critical thinking, I have come to the conclusion I am skeptical of the claims of this survey, as it applies to the general population of the US (and/or Canada).

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I saw a clip on the evening news, one of the questions was, "What is a better credit card rate, 3.9% or 21.5%?"  It didn't sound like a leading question to me...

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Here are some interesting juxtapositions of comments from within the article.

Quote:

But overall, the average literacy of college students is significantly higher than that of adults across the nation.

Quote:

"But do they do well enough for a highly educated population? For a knowledge-based economy? The answer is no," said Joni Finney, vice president of the National Center for Public Policy and Higher Education, an independent and non-partisan group.
If college student literacy is significanly higher than that of adults across the nation, then where is the highly educated population against which the college students fall short?
----

Quote:

Also, compared with all adults with similar levels of education, college students had superior skills in searching and using information from texts and documents.
I'm having a little difficulty dealing with "adults with similar levels of education" and "college students had superior skills".  Perhaps it would make more sense if we knew what "similar levels of education" actually means in this context.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

MadMango,

I didn't see the clip, so I will defer to your judgement.

Oh, by the way, is the 3.9% and 21.5% interest on the same basis? All else being equal, I am surprised that only 20%-30% of a 4-year degree candidate would not pick 3.9% as being better for them (21.5% being better for the card issuer).

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Sorry RDK, I was writing off the cuff to respond to your blurp of the report.  Now that I have read it…are you concerned that if the engineering student can not balance their check book that they can not be an effective engineer in the future?  

Just an interesting thought, can people who can balance check books or figure out how much a pound of meat cost learn how to do heat, fluid, or vibration analysis on rocket equipment?

I think this assessment is unfair.  The American Institutes for Research are targeting young adults that have been pampered by the college and parents.  The colleges are built so that the college students do not have to think about such things so that they can focus on their studies.  The parents already set up the finances for the school and any other supplies that the student will need.  The student just has to show up and do well.  

Like many young adults, once they graduate and finally earning a sizable income, they realize that it is important to know how to balance their check book and know how to shop for their groceries to stretch that dollar that they have just earned

“I wouldn’t like to see a system where a person was marked for life based on a test taken at age 16 but something has to be done to ensure that only those with the adequate skills and educational background gets the benefit of an expensive university education and the rights and responsibilities that goes with such an education like entry to a profession.”

I’m sorry RDK, did we go from…book smarts does not equate street smarts… to …only book smart people should be able to advance to higher education?  

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Well, the really smart folks in the US don't need school to make a lot of cash. Rock stars, movies stars, self-made men (and women) abound!

They don't choose engineering as a field because it's too hard and the payoff ain't there.

How come the "stupidist" people end up being the managers? Is it because they're too dangerous to be given the real work or are they actually too smart to have to do the real work?

These kinds of surveys or studies don't mean a thing.  If you are "smart" you will find a way to make money, by hook or by crook. And let us please not forget that crime pays. It pays extremely well. High risk, sure, but while you were learning differential equations and hoping that the hard work would pay off, that kid who dropped out is making a mint selling crack.

This is why a free society is scarey. Unless we (I am speaking for those Americans who I think I represent...) execute criminals on a regular basis, it will always pay better to steal a dime than work for a dollar. Unless a genuine, life-stiffling stigma is attached to poor performance in school, those who squeak by will end up in the workforce.

While I'll take the former, the latter might mean that late bloomers don't get a chance...

I, for one, would rather live in a society that offers infinite chances at academic achievement than one that locks you into a career path because of a grade you got when you were twelve.

All that aside, the market will weed out the bad apples: stop going to stores that hire imbiciles, etc.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
The report stated sample size and the methodology used.

It was not a poll type of study where there could be leading questions but one using accepted literacy methodology to determine levels of literacy.

And yes I would expect an engineer to be able to balance q checkbook, know that 3.9% is a better interest rate to pay than 21% and be able to read and discriminate on the information provided.

Just like I expect one to be able to read the report and know that it encompassed both public and private schools, was conducted in accordance with the test used by the National Assessment of Adult Literacy and included 1,827 respondents.

Anyone else see the irony that engineers, supposedly educated and literate people are having a hard time reading the article on literacy and commenting on it?

We do all know what irony is, don’t we?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

DaveViking,

I've been inside maximum security prisons several times while engaged in engineering work on behalf of my employer. After you've been inside for just a few hours, you won't think that crime pays. You'll probably cry on the way home like I did. And I'm not a liberal.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I was thinking about this article and it struck me that there is something wrong.  I looked up the definition of literacy and it means “a person who can read and write” (a simple definition), for the article to say that these college students are not literate is completely false, the students can read and write. It seems the person that did this article or study is using the term wrong.  It is not literacy that the kids are having problems, but comprehension of matters outside college life.  

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

My son is just starting his second semester in college and he sent an instant message last night that was too funny not to share here, when asked how his first week went he said:

Quote:

My calculus teacher is nice, but I'm sure he's speaking Greek.  I like my language teacher, but I think she's speaking German.  My Chem teacher knows way too much Chemestry, but I'm pretty sure he's speaking Latin.  My English teacher is kind of strange, but it looks like she's speaking ... Oh yeah.
  I find it hard not to look hopefully on the future.
David

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Rick,

I didn't get a chance to read the article. I went by what was on your OP.

Now that I read your link, it does seem that the survey was conducted using standard methods, and with a test that at least has been used by other agencies.

I am still skeptical of the results. I still do not see the level of illiteracy that is claimed.

Oh! Ok. So what is irony?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Well, this sort of explains how other things can happen in society. Re-election of certain political canditates; top TV show "skating with the stars"; continuing habits regarding over-eating, driving 4 mpg SUV's,spending binges with  over-extended credit,  and zero physical exercise notwithstanding continual reminders that  each of these practices lead down the short road to being fat , dumb and happy. Which kind of explains the need for most persons to be on medications that were unneccesary and unheard-of 20 yrs ago.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
Exactly.

If university graduates cannot function at a high level of problem solving and literacy then how can they be expected to put together the fact of massive trade deficits, massive government deficits and accumulated debt into a long term unsustainable economy?

The general US population is swayed by short term economic gains with no real idea that they will have to pay for this later.

Canada is not much better. We just elected (yesterday) a government that has promised massive tax cuts and spending increases which will wipe out the only G8 government fiscal surplus to re-instate the same party that ran up our debt in the first place.

It’s ironic that they call themselves Conservative while the Liberal party is the one that got our financial house in order.

Simply one example of a population that cannot function at a high rate of problem solving and literacy being able to see through the issues and look at the best long term solution. (Not that the Liberal party was squeaky clean, they had more than their share of incompetence and scandal, just that the solutions that were bought by the voters are not sustainable and the decision was swayed more by stile than substance.)

BTW literacy is not a binomial state. There are many degrees of literacy and what the study was talking about was that collage and university students nearing the end of their studies could not function at the top level of literacy.

We all know of many other examples where the public perception of an issue was swayed more by style than substance. PCB is a highly stable chemical. The population thinks that they are the most hazardous chemical around when it is only the by products of low temperature combustion that are the problem not the PCB’s themselves. (PCB is however usually contaminated by these byproducts and they are produced at normal fire temperatures.)

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Sorry about the late posting.Time difference perhaps!!. I too was amazed reading the article. But a clarification was also there that students with science and maths background fared better and possessed good quantitative abilities,while those from humanities and fine arts etc displayed these low skills.

I went to sleep peacefully thereafter.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

A couple of "coincidences" for you:

1.  My daughter's junior year (high school) math homework is graded on whether it is complete and turned in, not whether the answers are correct.

2.  Last Sunday's newspaper said that the USA has fallen from 3rd to 17th in rankings of number of students that are going into engineering, since the math and science are too difficult for them.

Coincidence?  I think not!

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

MrMojito - I've been in jails before, too... Why would you cry? Because you got caught? Seriously, crime pays, it's got a high risk, that's all. Most normal people (like myself) do not commit crimes. Yet there are criminals. Repeat offenders, hardened members of the convicted class. Why don't they stop? Boggles the mind.

davefitz "Well, this sort of explains how other things can happen in society. Re-election of certain political canditates; top TV show "skating with the stars";"

What's wrong with "Skating with the Stars"? Don't be such a snob. You can always turn off the TV (personally, I don't watch TV, except for Ultraman reruns). An engineer designed the skating rink, an engineer designed all the video equipment. You got a problem with that?

Let's keep this in mind: the kids referenced in the article in question are not the future, not by a long shot. Why? Simple: a 30-year old engineer, possibly somone on this board, has what, arguably 40 more years in the workforce as an engineer? That's 40 years, enough for two generations. And plenty of time to "fix" the mess.

How many of us would/could refuse to work on a big shopping mall project? Do you know how awful to the culture shopping malls are? How about movie theaters, or worse, TV and electronics stores, that flush our homes with the sewer of lowest common denominator "entertainment"?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

2
Excellent!! We like our customers to be rich and stupid! smile

But honestly... without having much actual knowledge about the situation across the Atlanctic, I think this survey has been set up, carried out and presented with only one objective in mind: come up with something shocking.

So college student are unable to tell if they have enough gas left or have to fill up, to tell how much they are supposed to tip or to analyse news storied... Is this an ACTUAL problem? How many of all car drivers run out of gas routinely on the US road network every day? 30%? 1%? 0.01%? How many people give a 0.10$ or a 100$ tip because they can't do the math? How many newspapers are sold even if they're incomprehensible? And who designs cars, who makes credit card offers and who writes articles in the newspaper - did those people go anywhere else than to college?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Quote (Ashereng):

This article certainly makes for attention grabbing.

Quote (SteveBraune):

Scary isn't it!

Quote (epoisses):

How many newspapers are sold even if they're incomprehensible? And who designs cars, who makes credit card offers and who writes articles in the newspaper - did those people go anywhere else than to college?

Looks to me like someone is getting their bonus - if their intent was to "stir" up some discussion and grab our attention, they certainly got it.

I wonder if there was a similar survey done 10 years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years ago? This sounds a lot like when I was a teenager and my parent's friends were bemoaning the lack of education/moral/taste (bell bottoms anyone) of my generation, and the prediction that my generation is going to h-e-double hockey sticks in a handbasket.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I seem to recall reading  that there were similar prognostications about the shortcomings of the younger generation published  back in roman times and also in ancient Greece. The more things change ,the more they remain the same.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I'm way too young to be referencing the past, but from what I've heard from my elders, the oldsters have always complained about the youngins, I'm 25 and recently took in a 16 yr old foster kid as well as my 18yr old brother in law. When I see the way they act or dress I worry about the future of society, but then I remember that my dad thought the same thing about me when I was a teen and that my grandfather thought the same thing about my dad when my dad was a teen.

It's the same crap over and over again. I already know that a young adult doesn't know much about budgeting or quick calcs, but when I was young neither did I, you live and learn, and I'm still learning. However what really annoys me are those old farts who keep telling the youngins about how life was in their day and how they respected this and worshipped that....whatever gramps, society changes as do its inhabitants, get over it.

Finally as for the dumbing down of society...good let it happen, the really smart ones don't let the dummies get them down and eventually rise to the top, by takign advantage of their stupidity. Meanwhile the moderately smart (read: mediocre) whine and complain about the dummies and eventually give up.
I won't watch 'Skating with the stars' b/c I think it's retarded, and while I like 'Stella Artios' beer alot, I generally refuse to buy it b/c I know that the brewer has artificially inflated the price to bring it into the premium beer category (b/c all the dummies think that if a beer is expensive it's better....the same applies to wine)

 

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

There are many ideas circling around that propose that
you can model a society or group of people with concepts
that apply to single biological entities.

Such as the phrase
"Use it or loose it"
Refering to an aspect of a living thing declining and
eventually disappearing because of little use. Maybe
evolution or another cause.

So what happens to a society without survival stress.
Smarts do not gain people appreciable survival skill
in times of plentiful supplies. Is it not expected then
that intellegence would slowly be diminished ??

Does this go on until a correction ??

Is it possible the human race will split into two paths
thinkers and workers ??



 

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
I think that the dumbing down of society will continue until there is a survival need for a correction.

However I fear that the magnitude of the correction might be too much for the species or our society as we know it or can imagine it to survive.

I’m thinking about the correction being a nuclear war.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

2dye4,
That was the premise of The Time Machine by H.G. Wells.  The hero goes forward from the 1800's for many thousands of years and finds that there was a race of lotus-eaters on the surface and a race of workers in underground caverns--each terrified of the other.  An interesting story about what happens when you "lose it" from lack of use.

David

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

zdas04,
You didn't understand the proper meaning behind "The Time Machine".
First off the underground dwellers were not frightened of the above ground dwellers.
The above ground dweller's society seemed like a utopia, but they were essentially food for the below ground dwellers, who came out at night and kidnapped a few above grounders at a time. HG Wells was attempting to reflect the fragility of a "perfect" society among other things.

As an aside, Roman culture/art/entertainment was at it's most tasteless right before it collapsed. That doesn't mean it will happen now.
It's human nature to be lazy, we try to find the simplest solution to a problem, it's what all creatures do. The majority of people will be sedentary if given the chance.

I also don't think that a nuke war will EVER happen. As long as there's money to be made, nobody from the ruling class will destroy land, people, resources willingly, at least not in large amounts ie. via nuke. Basically greed and a fear of the unknown keeps us all alive. It's like playing chess, no player in his right mind will sacrifice his own queen to MAYBE take his opponent's queen.
As long as the market exists crap will be put on TV.

However I do agree that humanity does need a goal, something to test us all. I don't think that a war is the answer, maybe a discovery of extraterrestrial life and or habitable space outside of earth. I don't really know.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Not everyone is as dumb as the news media suggests.  Just because it is in print doesn't mean it is true or that it isn't skewed.  People are not getting dumber.  We still have some smart people and a whole bunch of dumb ones, as usual.  100 years ago they had stupid people too.  The media reports on what they want you to think.  If they take the normal lazy students and sensationalize their story and don't have anything to balance it, then of course you're going to think we're all just going down the tubes.  

You need to do your best to raise your kids not to be lazy and dumb and then you've helped.  You and your children need to have a good sense of personal responsibility and not a good sense of how to pass the buck for substandard achievement and substandard drive.  It does more to help a child learn to think and help him or her learn how to learn than it does to arm wave and profess and post.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
Anyone think that a direct result of the dumbing down of the population is spam, telemarketers and instant loan places?

I don’t know about the media being smart enough to lead people to what they want to think. Every reporter that I have ever met was as dumb as a post. (and when I was involved in a national issue I met some of the so called best reporters in the country.) They come to a story with a preconceived notion; usually the most outrageous angle and they don’t let the facts stand in the way of reporting that story.

If it could not be told in a sound bite they were not interested in the facts behind the issue.

Politicians were even worse. The only one of many nationally prominent politicians that I met with on this issue who actually listened to the background facts and then asked intelligent facts and appeared to understand the issue was the then premier of Manitoba (equal to a US governor) Garry Filman P.Eng

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

RDK

You bring to light the saying,

"Don't cloud the issue with the facts".

Regards,

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Originally posted by RDK: "Anyone think that a direct result of the dumbing down of the population is spam, telemarketers and instant loan places?"

No, I don't think that.  Spam is just junk mail, which has been around for as long as I can remember, in a new form.  While I hate spam, I'd almost say it shows the creativity and inventiveness of society that people were able to so quickly learn how to use this new technology to flood our inboxes with idiotic offers for cheap drugs from Canada and Mexico.

Telemarketers are nothing new, and could be compared to door to door salesman of pre-telephone (and supposedly less dumbed-down) times.  They're just employees trying to get the word out about a product or service for their company.

Instant loan places are fairly new, as far as I know (unless you count loan sharks), but I seem to think of them more as responding to the irresponsibilty and greed of people more than stupidity.  I suppose you could argue that irresponsibility is a trait of the stupid, but I know of quite a few people who seem to be pretty smart who do some pretty irresponsible things (Richard Feynman for example).  If you had said "interest-only mortgages" as being a sign of the dumbing down of society, then I would agree with you, but even then some people have made some really good money in markets with rapidly rising home prices (or so the rumour goes).

Bob

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

What irresponsible thing did Richard Feynman do?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Quote:

A person's ability to balance a checkbook and accomplish other tasks isn't based on their education, said Seattle Central student Jennifer Chapton, 22.

"It's not about your book smarts," she said. "It's about your street smarts."

What was learned in college does not reflect what the real world is.  

I was once told by a CEO of a company (the guy was really old and ran a pretty small but successful company) I was interviewing with (being just out of college myself) that I will only get to use 10% of my knowledge from college...

I have to admit there a lot of things I didn't know how to do when i graduated.  And guess what?  I learned what real world really is about the 6 months I was out of school not DURING school.

I agree there are also the spoiled kids that really have no idea what is going on in the world but these are also the same people that after they got out of college they STILL refuse to learn anything to become independent.   

What is learned in school is all theory.  Graduating with an engineering degree, I think only one course allowed me to see how engineering is being used in the real world and that's my senior design project.  All of my other courses expect the students to believe in "the ideal world" such as a place where gravity does not act on anything...how does that help students understand the real world where gravity does in fact do something?  

I always joke with my friends that college has made me dumb because I do not know common sense and common knowledge.

So which is better?  Knowing how to calculate a differential equation or how much my groceries will cost me in a month?

There are also a lot of students that have to work for their own tuition.  They have more common knowledge than me as they have to deal with those things while I didn't have to.  There are also a lot of people that never had any college education but know more things than I can count with my own fingers.

Perhaps the US higher education institutions (or any higher education institution in any country for that matter) should incorporate common knowledge into the curriculum...?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

qcme-
The ability to solve differential equations and estimate food cost are mutually exclusive?...I don't get it. ponder

I find myself agreeing with most of what has be posted here to some degree and can perhaps add one more thing.  While I believe that the relative number of stupid, average, and smart people hasn't changed; and that different people have different talents (I can't spell worth a crap, so despite my engr. degree, a 8th grade grammar teacher could still consider me below average); I think the number of average and below average people being admitted the Universities HAS greatly increased.  Whereas before a degree was a standard or tool with which could be used to evaulate a person's credintials, now one must question.  

As a result, many classes have been dumbed down to the lowest common denominator with absurd grade distributions.  While taking my required humanities (I'm class 04) many classes had over 80% getting and 'A'...how can everyone be superior?  what happened to the gentlemen's 'C'.  The old bell curve grading distribution seems to have been replaced with a polynomial in which only the absolute dumbest and laziest can not achieve at least a 'C' or 'B'.  

I credit our emerging culture of 'feelings' where a person's self-esteem is more important than the correct anwser.  RE: denoid's daughter's homework assignments.  Politially correct 'everyone's a winner and special' attitude in public schools where competiveness is being weeded out is slowly destroying America's ability to compete with the rest of the world that emphasizes being right and the the best.  

I'll end my rant by summing a survey I recently read:  American and their foreign exchange counterparts in the same college class were given the same test and replied to a series of questions regarding how they felt they did.  The American students responded much more confidently than the exchange.  When the results came back, the exchange students, on average, performed far better than the American.  When given a second round of questions about how they felt about their score, the American students were far more satisfied with theirs than the exchange.  So to summarize, we are raising people who feel far prouder for performing far less.  In contrast, other countries are raising students who are less satisifed with better performance.  
   


RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Quote (bioengr82):

Politially correct 'everyone's a winner and special' attitude in public schools where competiveness is being weeded out is slowly destroying America's ability to compete with the rest of the world that emphasizes being right and the the best.

At least the UK and the US will be able to compete on equal terms. Nowadays it seems impossible to fail an exam unless you don't turn up to take it. The grades get better and the standard continues to decline year by year.

We are only fooling ourselves: the upcoming economies in the East must be laughing themselves to sleep knowing that they won't need to worry about there being any competition from the West within a couple of generations.

----------------------------------
  I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy it...

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
http://nces.ed.gov/programs/quarterly/vol_5/5_2/q6_2.asp


Quote:



Participation in higher education. The enrollment rate in higher education was higher in the United States than in the five other countries presented in 1999. While the net enrollment rate in higher education was relatively stable in the United States, France, and Germany between 1994 and 1999, the rate increased in the United Kingdom.


….


First university degrees in science, including mathematics. In 1999, the United States awarded a smaller percentage of first university degrees in science than Canada, France, Germany, and the United Kingdom. About 10 percent of all first university degrees awarded in science in the United States were in mathematics and statistics—the lowest percentage of the five countries presented.


….


Expenditures per student for higher education. In 1998, expenditures per student for higher education were higher in the United States than in all other countries presented—more than twice as high as in Germany, Japan, and the United Kingdom, and more than two and one-half times as high as in France. Between 1995 and 1998, all countries presented showed increases in average expenditures per student for higher education. During this period, the gap widened in average expenditures per student for higher education between the United States and the other countries presented.
Expenditures for higher education as a percent of GDP. In 1998, public expenditures for higher education as a percent of GDP were higher in the United States than in the six other countries presented, except Canada. With the addition of private expenditures, the United States replaced Canada as the country with the highest expenditures for higher education as a percent of GDP. This contrasts with the position of the United States (in the middle of the six countries) for expenditures on primary and secondary education as a percent of GDP.





The US spends more as percent of GDP (and since it has the highest GDP per capita the most in absolute terms as well) than the other countries surveyed and has a higher percentage of the population at university than the other countries but graduates a lower percentage of math and science (presumably including engineering) than the other countries.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I'm not sure what university you went to bioengr82 but I found univ to be bloody difficult, as did most of the people I went to univ with (I'm class of '03). Even our electives were difficult, mostly b/c the average engineer didn't have the necessary essay writing and writing analysis skills to accurately describe what Nietsche was trying to say with his.......well whatever he was talking about. I stuck to history and politics mostly, they make sense to me.

I do disagree with this shift away from meritocracy to 'feelings' as the hippy freaks call it, bloody hippies and their love and emotions :) and especially their politically correct nonsense :)


 

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Mr Kitson,
Thought you would interested to know that PE Magazine just published an article about the number of engineers graduating in the US, China and India.  A recent article, frequently cited in these forums, appears to be incorrect about the numbers of graduates.  PE magazine cites stats that show that the US still leads the way in engineering grads on a per capita basis.  The Indian and Chinese stats previously published, include a lot of two and three year technical and science diploma/degrees.  So maybe we're not as far back as some have opined.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
Steve

Any link to that article?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Mr Kitson,
It's in a hard copy magazine.  I couldn't find it on www.NSPE.org.  

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

(OP)
Did they make any reference to the underlying data and source of information?

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Mr Kitson,
I can't post my email address here, so please go to our website and post a message.  It will be routed to me.  Let me know how I can get some info back to you.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Mr Kitson,
I just found a reference... Duke University School of Engineering.

Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I think part of the reason is the importance (or lack of) hiring managers place on where people received their education.  Many today could care less as long as "they have a degree in such and such".  I have even heard some very well respected business owners say where one received the degree from made no difference.  From experience, (I attended one highly ranked U and one not so highly ranked) that the quality of the student varies drastically from place to place.  The best of the lower ranked school could have held their own at the higher ranked institution.  The rest....I'm not so sure they would have fared well at all.  If nobody is rewarded for going through the more rigorous education then what is the incentive?

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

bioengr82 - about the dumbing down - a case history - my daughter.  Age 14.  Was in Grade 8 in India (small town convent school).  Average student.  Had to leave before completing the grade.  Spent 3 months doing nothing at new assignment.  Has since been sent to USA for schooling.  Took the placement test.  She now has 4 grade 10 subjects and 4 grade 9 subjects.  Hmmmmmm.
   As for what China and India calls engineers, be careful.  In the latter, there are some fine institutions (Indian Institute of Technology, National Insitute of Technology) - where students use MIT, Cornell, Harvard as fall backs if they don't get accepted (to IITs).  But, the overall bulk of engineers - perhaps technicians at best.  As for China, I remember reading a factoid that some 54% of the Chinese Rural doctors never completed grade 6.  Hmmmm.
cheers to all - a pretty good discussion.  Thanks Rick!

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I think a lot of the problem lies with quality of teachers in middle school and high school.  If you get turned off by a subject early in life, if given the chance, you will most likely avoid that subject in higher education.  I speak from experience. I had a horrible teacher in the 8th grade which completely ruined history for me.  Also poor foundations laid by high schools force colleges to waste time catching the children up to speed.

The American school systems tends to attract mediocre science and math teachers.  I myself have looked into becoming a math teacher, and have all the required coursework.  But I am unwilling to live off 1/3 of my current salary, with no hope of ever reaching my current standard.  And as a young engineer, with only 4 years experience, my engineering salary will only increase with time.

No, I do not think teachers will ever be paid what engineers are paid.  I would be willing to take a reasonable pay cut if the work were rewarding.  But with the current standardized testing requirements and the large class room sizes I do not think even that is possible.  I read somewhere that there is a most teachers quit after their first year due to their dissatisfaction.  Teachers are overworked and underpaid and before that is a remedied there is no way our children can excel.  Our children aren't getting dumber it's the system that's failing them.  

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

biglinda-
On the other extreme, you could never have a teacher (or a class for that matter): unschooling

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

2
Three comments

1)  I think that standards for excellence are to low in many schools.  

My wife's grammer school isn't allowed to fail anyone unless they submit paperwork at Christmas.  Basically that means you have to be ready to fail them after the first quarter, so you can get all the paper work together by Christmas.  (It rarely happens even though it often should.)  At my college (grad 03) there was a drastic difference between an engineering class and anthing else.  I can't write/spell/read well and I worked 1/2 as hard, skipped classes and still was at the top of the class in each of my non-engineering classes.  In one class I wrote papers about two hours before they were due, didn't proof read them and turned them in.  I got an A-.  I didn't deserve it, if I don't proof read my writing is best used as toilet paper.  I had many friends who couldn't complete the engineering courses (too many C's and D's) and went on to get straight A's in other subjects.  

2)  We need higher standards for teachers.  

My wife also just graduated from the same school as an elementary school teacher.  She is very smart, valedictorian at every school (including college) she ever attended.  She had to take math classes where they spent two weeks covering the number line.  (Negitive integers can be tricky.)  Some of her classmates struggled with this.  Now as a 4th grade teacher she works with people who have trouble explaining what an expository paper is or how to do long division.  She is constantly attending meetings where they make her feel like she is back in the first grade.  She loves to teach and doesn't mind being poorly compensated but continually feels like the administration is insulting her intellegence.  Both of us are bothered by the fact that people who seem so dumb are allowed to teach.  How are kids supposed to learn something the teacher doesn't know.  Perhaps the place that standards need to be raised is with our teachers.  The smart teachers (of which there are many) would have no trouble.  And if the smart ones had a little trouble that might be good so they would touch up on their weak areas.  (On the down side, you'd have to pay more to get smarter teachers and then taxes would increase.)  

3)  Need more separation in junior/high school as in other contries.

I wish my high school would have challenged me more.  I only studied for one class in high school.  It was the first and only C I ever got in high school.  I had to work really hard and had a B average over the whole.  Because of the difficulty I was able to do very well on the A.P. test without having to study much.   The rest of my classes I showed up for and did homework.  Sometimes I forgot that we had a test until the test was in hand.  I had friends w/ a similar experience.  

My school had "honors and regular" classes.  The regular classes were made so easy that unmotivated or really dumb people could pass them.   The motivated but not gifted people ended up in the honors classes with the gifted people.  That is fine, but that limits the degree of difficultly possible in those classes.

When I got to college my friends and I were hit very hard with the reality that we had to study.  We didn't "party" to much but we had never studied in our lives so all of us got grades lower than what we were capable of.  It took me until my junior year of college to really learn how to hit the books.  My junior and senior year I often set the curve in my classes.   It would have helped me greatly to have some really challenging classes in high school.  I think the best way to do that is to have more levels of classes in high school.  Students who plan on doing science related subjects for their careers should have to take harder science classes than people who plan to do humanities related careers for the rest of their life.  Or those gifted in science should be pushed in their science classes.  On that note, I did not belong in the highest english or forgiegn language class.  All I did is slow the really gifted language people down.  I should have been in the middle level for people who were motivated, but not gifted.  Not to mention, those who are going to be trades people should have opportunites to take trades classes.  My high school basically dropped all of its trades classes.  I don't think this all needs to be decided by a single test.  You should be allowed to move if your grades indicate that would be best for you.  You should also be able to test a mix of the classes to help you narrow down what you like and what you are good at.  However, just because you like something doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it.  

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Quote (bushel3):

However, just because you like something doesn't mean you should be allowed to do it.

Amen!  Nice post.  I had almost the exact same experience with the studying, having been in several AP and dual-enrollment classes in high school and gifted since first grade.  I didn't need to study until late in college and grad school and then it was tough to get into the habit. It is unfortunate that the mindset of those deciding the governing of schools is to allow the slower students to act as speed bumps or brick walls for those who can excel much farther than they are being permitted.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

I actually noticed the same thing whilst at high school, I only really studied hard for my final exams in my final year. I always found it peculiar that other kids were having trouble, but I guess we're not all equal, and I was lucky enough to go to a good high school, nearly everybody from my class went on to univ, most are actuaries, geologists, engineers etc.
My experience with univ was slightly different, I found the first two years bloody difficult just like more other people, but that was primarily due to the sudden influx of studying that was required. I found it easy going in my last two years, but that's probably b/c I got into the swing of things by then.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Good article.  In India in almost all towns with what one would call lower middle class or better, kids have private tutors starting in kindergarten.  When they prepare for the Grade 10 and Grade 12 exams, they sometimes have as many as 7 tutors - one for each subject.  There are whole businesses founded on the principal of tutoring the Indian students.  Of course, these students don't have interschool sports, or school dances, or proms, or . . .  but they are kicking our kid's butts in the sciences and maths - and even English (proper English).

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

BigH,
My experience with Indians, those straight out of India is that they value bureaucracy and covering their heinies more than anything else. That's not to say they're not exceptionally well educated, however from what I've seen if it's not in a book or from a book it's unacceptable.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

Remember when the Japanese was going to take over USA and the world because they are:
- smarter
- harder working
- save more money
- better school
- their kids were kicking our kids in schoolastic tests
- etc.

I even remember at one point, the Japanese owned 3 out of the 10 largest banks in the world (don't know how they measure largest, but I think it was in Fortune).

Well, guess what? Japan isn't doing much more than we are right now. Yeah, Toyota, Honda, and a couple of others are doing great, but the rest are doing about the same as US companies.

Why? They are affluent like we are. Their kids now watch as much TV (all those Japanese cartoon animine anyone?) and eat as much junk food as ours. They also text message and IM as much, or more, than our kids.

I call this the Coke Cola MTV effect. When a nation gets prosperous, the next generatin kids get used to the good life, and, some become as lazy as ours.

Wait a generation and all those Indian engineers who busted their heinie to get a good lifestyle will lament the fact that their kids are lazy blah blah and they are losing to the next emerging nation.

RE: Educational standards ??? What standards ??

This is also how the Roman empire went down. There's nothing really new in all this and nothing much do be done about it, except work hard, learn everyday and especially don't forget to enjoy it!

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