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Should Engineers have access to CAD

Should Engineers have access to CAD

Should Engineers have access to CAD

(OP)
We have an ongoing discussion in my office whether Engineers should have access to AutoCAD.  There are two schools of thought.

No:  As Engineers we should provide sketches to a draftsperson/technician and they should develop the drawing.  The Engineer should then mark up checkprints, so never has any need to a drawing package.  Working with CAD is not part of the Engineers Job

Yes: As Engineers we do drawing as part of the design process, visualisation, checking geometry, conceptualising etc.  A person can do more accurate sketches with CAD, and a lot quicker as well.  The sketch can then be taken an worked up into a full drawing.  The art /skill of the draftsperson is taking the bones and scribbles from an Engineer and turning it in to a professional document.

I personally fall into the Yes category but I would be interested to hear other members opinions.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

YES, Engineers should have access to AutoCAD.

We do electrical controls work and after learning to do CAD I became much more productive and my drawings were better due to increased detail.

Speaking strictly for electrical control drawings, the problem arises when you have to devote too much time adhering to overly complex CAD specs that in the end don't gain you very much.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I once drew a very simple vessel (a piggable line drip) on an engineering pad with straight edges and circle templates.  Took a couple of days to get all the parts and pieces to fit the concept in my mind (and many discarded sketches).  Took another week back and forth with the draftsman--probably 50 hours all in.

We built it and it worked fine.  Then I had the idea that I could expand the concept to allow two lines to come together within the drip.  I drew this one (much more complex) in AutoCAD LT in 3 hours.  Sent it to the draftsman to pretty it up and the result was right the first time.  Total time was about 5 hours.  I can't say that every job I've done had been 1/10 the elapsed time, but it has been pretty close to that kind of productivity improvement.

You just have to be able to identify the point where you stop doing engineering and start doing drafting and hand the work off at that point.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering
www.muleshoe-eng.com
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

The harder I work, the luckier I seem

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I normally don't have a problem with MOST engineers using AutoCad, as long as MOST stay away from solid modeling. I have worked with a lot of various engineering disciplines and most of them can not handle working with solids very well. I get flack for saying this from engineers, but it is my experience.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

You might consider that according to the state engineering laws, much of the CAD work that is done must be done BY an engineer or under the engineer's direct supervision.

You might ask the same question, as to whether it's appropriate for an engineer to type out a letter or whether a secretary should always be involved.

On both questions, I've done it both ways, and the best answer depends on the work involved, and on the people involved.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I think an engineer should be doing engineering work. Type a rough draft and let a secretary do the letter.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

You said it ctopher - the engineer should use the same tool but stop when it becomes someone else's job to finish it up.  Typewriter or CAD system.  Personally, I take offense with your suggestion that engineers can't handle 3D CAD.  I do it all the time.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Thanks. I said most engineers, not all. It is also just from experience.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

My vote is for Cad in the hands of Engineers.  At our firm I use Cad (though I am NOT an Engineer) and so do some (though not all) the Engineers.  We use it to make small/minor changes as convenient for us to make rather than taking them to a CAD drafter, this is also how we do must of our design.  The point at which we take it to a CAD drafter is dependant on timing, complexity, and schedule.
As far as 3D my experience is that it is a step further than our Engineers, and myself have time to work in to any real degree.  At that point is usually all in the hands of the CAD operator

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Engineering in 2006 is insane without using all the tools - which is to say, computers.  I personally will not hire an engineer who doesn't use CADD, I simply have no use for one.  The same with Word and Excel; if all you can do is write a letter with a pen and I have to hire a separate person to type it, I can't justify the expense of having you around.

Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

It helps to have something to scale and
not a sketch.  I am in favor of the Engineer
using ACAD to at least rough sketch the parts
so that sometimes the not obvious mistakes
or errors is graphically illustrated.  He
would not have to trim or fillet the parts
but work with the correct parameters in his
sketch.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

The market has already decided.  It's hard to find a mechanical engineering job that doesn't require five years of experience with SolidWorks or Pro/Engineer, or both.

Many companies that run high- end CAD packages employ engineers, or designers, but not both.  

That's partly how I came to be in the job market.  My team selected Pro/E to replace some aging junk.  Partly because the designers were already sitting in front of the computers with decent graphics cards, the company dumped their engineers in order to pay for Pro.  No, it was never overtly acknowledged, but the math ain't that hard.

Beware unintended consequences.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

The answer in my opinion is "it depends."  Every company (or industry) has its own way of doing things.  The ones that figure out a good balance will probably be successful and the ones that don't, may not.  I work with Autocad and personally think I spend far too much time making drawings and fixing mistakes by the designers and drafting people.

-Mike

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I think engineers should have access to AutoCAD, but should know better than to start editing a designer's drawing. The engineer should know his/her capabilities/limitations with CAD and should leave a designer's drawings alone.

When I was working as a mechanical designer in the North East, I didn't know one single engineer who didn't know how to use AutoCAD VERY well. The mechanical engineer I worked with was a super-user in AutoCAD, Mechanical Desktop & Inventor. I was still in college and could not do some of the things he could do with those programs. I advanced quickly by sharing knowledge about the programs. I had no problems with him adding things to my drawings because it was done flawlessly.

Now I'm working for a company which is based in the south. NONE of the engineers know how to use AutoCAD, but still DEMAND to have the program. I've had drawings which took WEEKS to compose properly, altered by a Civil engineer who doesn't have a clue what he's doing, but tells all of my designers, including myself, he's an expert with AutoCAD and it's so easy.

All of my drawings are password protected now. I'm in charge of the CADD Department and have ordered all of my designers to password protect their drawings as well. We each have the same password so we can work on each other's drawings or critique them.

If you're an engineer and truely don't know how to utilize AutoCAD very well, don't make remarks to designers about how AutoCAD is such an easy program to learn and use, or you used R12 and know everything about AutoCAD and how simple it is. It's very rude and you'll just look like a complete FOOL walking up to a designer and asking him/her how to make a block, make a viewport or freeze layers in a current viewport.

From my past experience, I understand not all engineers are like this, but I have been having a terrible time here so far. Perhaps my opinions are bias.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

(OP)
MechElement

I agree with you about not changing another persons drawing.  If you do make a change without someones knowledge it can become a bit of a mess and no-ones knows what is correct, who has changed what and who is responsible for it.  

However, I have worked in places where the draftsmen are very possesive of their drawings, and will only allow Engineers access to pdf versions.  This causes me problems when I need to get a dimension from a drawing thats not called up.  I have to go up to the drawing office, interrupt the draftsman and stop him working, get him to open up the drawing I want and get him to scale of a dimension.  I then go back to my desk happy.  It would be a lot easier if had done it myself.

On the flip side, to Engineers not understanding AutoCAD, I have worked in an office where the draftsmen did not know how to use viewports and drew everything in paperspace, scaled manually.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Ussuri,

Fortunately, I do not have possessive designers. I understand where you're coming from. As a group, we had decided to password protect our drawings. We also decided we will keep one version of the drawing unprotected for the engineers to use to their likings.

Another thing I do not like, is when an engineer voices he drew something up really quick, but just copies one of our drawings, overrides a few dimensions and submits the drawing. When we see the drawing, the title block reads: Drawn By: (My name or one of the designer's names) and the drawing looks terrible because the engineer didn't use the plot styles or text styles we created, exploded dimensions and scaled arrows and text for some dimensions while leaving others alone, etc. The same goes for copying one of our drawings and putting they drew it after doing the aforementioned modifications.

Regarding your dimensioning statement. Every draftsman should understand that a drawing should be completely dimensioned, but not over dimensioned. In other words, there shouldn't be a part on that drawing an engineer or draftsman cannot establish by simply adding or subtracting a couple of dimensions. Plus dimensions shouldn't appear in different views dimensioning the same part/line. I am a firm believer of this and so it was in the mechanical field. Now that I've been working in the civil field, it does not seem to hold true.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I see a variety of viewpoints up there.   I think one reason for that variety is a wide discrepancy in who the "draftsman" is in the original question.  I'm doing AutoCAD to some extent every day- and I'm a registered engineer.  At a previous employer, we had a couple of AutoCAD workers who were fresh out of junior college and were doing good to lay a line on a page.  There's a vast difference.  And a number in between, with varying degrees of skill in layout-type work.

How exactly are you defining a "designer"?  Is a designer actually designing stuff or doing layout and drafting type stuff?  I ask, because typically, design work constitutes engineering.  So when you make a distinction between engineers and designers, it's not clear who is included in either party, or why they would even be separate and apart in the organization.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Wow...that's a lot of words to say "words are used every which way by different people".

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

While thinking again about the original post I came to the conclusion that I have too much access to Autocad.  Last week it was 14 hours per day thru the weekend.  Next I hear they will be making me have access to Solidworks.  There's not too much engineering in what I'm doing lately.

-Mike

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

With SolidWorks it will be down to 7 hrs per day, with just as much work to do. :)

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

ctopher,

Looks good to me, I can even have an extra long lunch.  

I wonder though, if anyone over fifty can even learn solid modeling?

Thanks,
-Mike

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Yes, I have seen all ages learn it. Depending on teacher and how much you want to learn.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

JStephen,

We get a project from an engineer, sit down and come up with a design. Then that design is put into a drawing by the designer and submitted to the engineer. The engineer will critique it and submit it back for updates. The "Designer" has a mind-set for design and usually will come up with a good idea and compose a drawing in an efficient amount of time.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

(OP)
IMHO, the definitions I come across are:

Draftsmen=Tracer: Copies verbatim an Engineers sketch into AutoCAD, errors and all.

Technician=Designer: Develops the general arrangement, details, scheme, etc and produces a proposal drawing for the Engineer to review, usually educated to college (HND, HNC) level but occasionally university educated. Completes basic calculations for the Engineer to check.

Engineer:  Puts numbers to the Technician arrangement, modifies in line with engineering principles and codes if required.  Takes responsibility for the design. Usually degree educated, but not always, and professionally qualified (P.E, CEng)

But there are always exceptions to any rule.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

In several places I've worked, having a dedicated drafter has been an unaffordable luxury. If you have an engineer, they can typically CAD-draw well enough to get by. A drafter, though, simply cannot do the engineering.

The funny thing that I've found is that in the couple of times when I've worked with a drafter who's supposedly the "AutoCAD guru," I've understood the finer points of its use much better than have they.

I think it's because I'm a "software guy." Whatever the software it is that I use, I always spend time figuring out what all the menu buttons do. It's a tool -- it seems foolish not to use it to its best advantage.

--------------------
Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
--------------------

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

It is very rare to find an engineer that is capable of doing good drawings per drafting standards. I know a lot of sm to med companies that do not care, fllow or know about drafting standards ... so it's not important to them and not a requirement for engineers.
AutoCad has been around a long time and started as a cheap CAD software and easily copied. Everyone copied from friends, loaded it at work, and most sm to med companies started using it. It then became part of their designs and habits. A lot of these conmpanies created their own way of using ACAD and do not send new employees to ACAD training, therefore do not use industry standards. For mechanical engineering, CAD is not usually required unless it's aerospace or automotive related...which is mostly 3D solids.
I beleive in companies using drafters or designers to do the detailed dirty work using solid modeling, then the engineer taking that data and doing their analysists and approving the design.
Having engineers create the work, send it to the drafter or designer, or doing the dwgs him/herself creates more work and errors multiply.
sorry, my 2 cents.
Chris

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Time for my 2 cents -
Of course you would have junior and senior guys at each one of these categories.

Drafter -
Guy/Gal who can fire up AutoCAD get in there, do red to black, maybe rough out some very preliminary overall dimensions.  He will also follow drafting standards, fonts, lineweights, that kind of stuff.  Most may know what they are drawing, but don't really have a clue of why they are drawing it that way or how it fits into the overall philosphy of the project.  Unfortunately too many people fall into this category even though they don't know it.

Designer -
Guy/Gal who can take napkin sketches, water cooler talk, general meeting notes and turn it into a project.  He can develope and track down 90% of the information he needs.  He can take educated guesses at what the engineer would have sized something based on past experiences.  He know whats the customer needs, not what the customer wants.  He takes into consideration mainatance areas, safety issues,etc. general overall project criteria that may or may not be in the project specifications.  He doesn't need an engineer to calculate pipe spans, roof slopes, or a beam size to hold up that one piece of grating out there.  He can do this because he has a chart from one of his previous employers that tells him what guidines to follow.
Good senior designers can spec out equipment in a pinch, usually go to project kick off meetings and can usually offer sound overall project advice.  This guy is the one who worries about all the details.  A good senior desinger stands next to the engineer at some companies.

Engineer -
Guy/Gal The person who can tell exactly if that building is going to blow over in the 140 mph.  If that pipe is going to blow because it over pressurized or if the foundation will fail because of the weight put on it.  This is the guy who is supposed to look at the big picture and ask himself whatif?  Sure he can get into CAD and fiddle around, some can do absolute wonders in today's can systems and follow all proper procedures.  He has programs and formulas for making sure that bridge is going to hold or that battle ship won't sink, and more importantly can prove it and will have to on many occasions.  He is responsible for all of the drafting/designs/engineering on his project when the stuff hits the fan.

Now if any of you are still reading this you will find that 90% of people in a engineering department fall into one of these categories.  
I would say 5% would probably overlap into two of the categories.  
The other 5% well they are just there for there good looks or they are good BS's.

I think I could start a whole new thread about titles, because I have seen many times each of the misused.

I am getting off my soap box now and going get some beer.  Company happy hour tonight.

Cadnutcase.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

This continues to be an interesting discussion that has crossed a fairly wide spectrum relating to the use of CAD by engineers, designers, and drafting people.  While I do have by own view on this topic (due to many years of just being around this) I have to say in all fairness that I have seen examples of many of the situations described above.  There are too many clueless people around and they keep showing up everywhere.  I really do try to minimize the times that I am one of them however.

But it occurred to me after reading through our discussion which started out with the question about CAD and engineers, that if we in the profession have somewhat differing views, what chance does management have of understanding what CAD, engineering, and technology is all about.  It seems to me that fewer companies are being run by people with technical backgrounds and more are being managed by well, just about anyone.  It's no wonder our working environments are so different and the success of many companies is probably due to the efforts of all the technical people (engineers, designers, and drafting people) to get it all to work.

Regards,
-Mike

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I agree. IMO, it is one of the major reasons a lot of work is outsourced. Managers and marketing don't understand technical work, so they give it to someone else. (Different discussion)

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

cadnutcase, your descriptions are very accurate. I have yet to work with a "drafter" as you have defined them. Perhaps there are folks who do not understand what they're drawing, but I have not had the opportunity to meet one. I would hope the draftsman understands what he's drawing.

ctopher, I agree 100% with what you've said. We are currently dealing with this now. The new Director of Engineering will not allow any of my design team to design anything at all. Instead, the engineers are doing their sketches and the drawings MUST represent EXACTLY what they want done. Even if there's a chance of a better idea, we are not to question or challenge the engineers' designs. Projects are taking MUCH longer than anticipated. Redlining drawings has increased exponentially.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Mech,

Down here in Houston they is a huge shortage of GOOD CAD people whether they be drafters/designers/engineers right now.  You have to kind of take what you can get.

The infamous problem here is there are so many CAD schools in the city and the industry is such a wide range that you get a lot of people who know how to use CAD but don't junk about what you are doing.

Mech question about your last post, what do you do if the engineer's design doesn't work?  Say there is no hole for that bolt, do you have to get approval before putting a hole in.  I would think you would put the hole and when giving him the drawings back, you tell him that you had to put a hole in.  Just curious.

Back on topic to the original post though.

I think the ideal situation at least in my field.  Would be this.

You have a good designer assinged to an engineer or maybe two who handle the projects, Then there is a pool of drafters to handle doing the drawings, pick up marks that kind of stuff.  I am the design manager at my company and this procedure seems to work really well.  Of course designers who aren't assigned a lead to a particular project at that time are helping out the others.

There is no reason for our engineers to get into CAD at anytime, they just feel better having it.
I say give the engineer CAD, after he proves he really knows how to use it though.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I thought I posted a response, but don't see it...hmmm.

Ussuri, from your response, I assume you are not in the US.  In which case, the educational system is apparently different, and the qualifications of the people you're dealing with are somewhat different.

I see now that the original post cannot be answered in a general sense because the terms used don't have meanings specific enough to help.  To answer the original question, you'd just about have to work for that company.

MechElement, you make an interesting statement.  It sounds like your company has no provision whatever for training people- they have to be experienced in your specialty before you hire them?  If so, it may work for you, but by definition cannot work for everyone- new hires have to start somewhere.

I may say also in response to the original question, that at one position I supervised draftsmen (of varying abilities) but had no access to CAD.  Unfortunately, the employer (non-engineer) didn't see fit that I should learn CAD.  Now, I have been using it for several years, and am still learning.  If your engineers don't have adequate understanding and knowledge to deal with CAD, or are not familiar with your particular drafting standards, etc, have you perhaps considered that this is a problem that should be corrected, rather than assuming the engineers shouldn't have access to it?

Specifically, Cadnut, your idea to give CAD to engineers "after he proves he really knows how to use it" means "never"- because much of what you learn about using CAD comes from experience, not from a classroom.  I have dealt with two draftsmen who were fresh out of drafting school, and by your standard, they would have never had access to CAD either.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

cadnutcase, I am the principal designer and I'm in charge of the designing/drafting department. Every designer uses CAD and creates the drawings as per standard.

Yes, we actually have to ask the engineer if it's acceptable to put a hole in the part. Otherwise the hole position will be changed ever-so-slightly. My Sr. CAD Designer chose the placement of a lateral support yesterday and today engineer moved it 1/4" away from the 1" offset my designer chose. The engineer said to just do it. I couldn't believe it, but we HAD to adjust all views. This has been ongoing for a month now. I'm really trying to keep up the morale here. It's extremely hard to get a good designer in this region.

On topic... When I was informed by the DOE each engineer wanted AutoCAD, I spoke with each one personally to better understand the level of AutoCAD experience each engineer had. As a conclusion, I proposed AutoCAD LT for the engineers to save some money. This idea was unacceptable because they would have a "lesser CAD" than the "drafters".

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Jstephen,

One of the things I did for the guys who had a little or more cad experience, is I held a training class for how my company does CAD.  We covered everything in a couple of hours.  Basically they were instructed and agreed that the last person who touched a drawing had to put their initials on it.  Also anything that would take them over 10 minutes to do, they would come to me.

The key item also was they were allowed to copy items in a drawing around, but not allowed to modify the blocks or create new ones.  This helps on the whole cad standards.

The guys with no experience, we basically are going to do a 8 hour crash course over a period of long lunches.

Cadnutcase

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

"As a conclusion, I proposed AutoCAD LT for the engineers to save some money."

When I first started using AutoCAD, the previous user at my company had just left, taking his version with him.  So we needed to buy AutoCAD.  The catch was, I was new enough at it, I had a hard time trying to figure exactly what the difference was, and whether we needed the full version or the Lite version- and wound up buying the full version.  It may be that way with your guys- they don't really know what's missing, so can't really say if they need it or not.  Or you get a list of features that are in one but not the other, but you don't know what those features mean, so you don't know if you'll need them at some point.

I have found a few applications where I used the 3-D stuff, but 99.9% of ours is 2D drafting that lite would do fine on.  Some oddball stuff has come up too- the full AutoCAD let you insert raster images, the LT didn't have that particular option (probably some other way to accomplish it, though).

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

JStephen, I was told to review a bunch of resumes and pick the appropriate candidate for a designer position. I submitted my pick. The gentleman is in-processing now. When I spoke with the DOE about the gentleman I chose, he told me the guy might know too much and I should hire someone like a secretary so I'd "be able to keep an edge over them." This guy's a P.E. telling me things like this on a daily basis. IMO, that statement goes against everything I was ever taught about leadership.

I fully explained the difference between AutoCAD LT and the full version. It didn't matter. I suggested teaching a CAD class to the enigneers, but the DOE allowed only 15 minutes a day and it should only take a few days.

When I was in college learning mechanical design, I QUICKLY advanced beyond the professors CAD capabilities. Towards the end I was showing the professor commands in AutoCAD, Mechanical Desktop and Inventor. I would LOVE to get someone right out of college over here. He/she would be willing to work and learn.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

MechElement

At one time I tought alot of AutoCAD classes at night.  I would routinely get students in my night class who had taken the beginner course during the day class.  They would always complain about the day time teachers.  The president of the school would always ask me why his daytime teachers would get such bad reviews from the students on exactly what you were talking about.  Towards the end of the class the students would end up teaching the teachers.

The only conclusion I could come up with was that any half way decent CAD instructor could probably make 50% salary working out in the real world doing real work then he could teaching.

I will probably get flamed for that statement, so let me exclude people who just love to teach out of it.

I have also been told to hire lesser qualified people, but it was mainly because the bean counters working looking at their salaryies.  I had to come up with a formula to justify it.

lesser salary * slower work + more of my time = lesser production

more salary * faster better work + less of my time = more production.

It didn't work.


cadnutcase

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I've worked at a lot of outfits that use AutoCAD.  None of them use it 'right', i.e. like "Inside AutoCAD" taught me, or like Autodesk apparently intended.  Kids fresh out of school are just not prepared for what they'll be expected to generate, or repair.

I just wish someone would teach them how to draw in pencil.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I spent aprox 2.5 years training drafters/designers/machinists/techs how to use CAD and wrote standards. Out of all, everyone learned something and improve their skills with dwgs, file mngmt and design ... except the engineers. They just saw it as another meeting to take up time.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

As an aside to this topic I've noticed an overall degradation of skills in the last to fifteen ten years at the companies I worked at and with the CAD drawings we have received from vendors.  These are all with small companies which I think is part of the problem.  Small companies don't often have a broad experience level that is helpful with running an efficient engineering/manufacturing operation.  In my opinion it takes a balanced systems approach to sales, engineering, design, bills of materials, product structure, document management, and so on, in order to be a successful and profitable business.  And it takes the right people to do this.  We all need to be part of the system.

It seems to me that the problem solving process often is to take a screwed up mess and put it all on a computer, in which case the result many times is a computerized screwed up mess.  If the logic isn't there to do things manually then the computer is seldom a fix by itself, and this is really important with bills of materials, configuration management, and CAD.  

But I see now that I have wondered too far off topic.  Someday, maybe another thread.

Regards,
-Mike


RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Ah, so draughtsmen (and women) still exist!

Where I work they have all been renamed "Design Engineers", are loosely refered to by "management" as "Engineers", but in most cases have a calculating ability that runs out after the basic trig functions!

Such is life....

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Should Engineers have access to CAD? Yes

Should half of the people that call themselves designers or design-engineers have access to CAD?  No, I don’t even know what they are hired for.  Takes longer to tell them what you want than it takes to do it yourself.

There is a world of difference between a CAD jockey and a designer besides the salary that they get paid.  In the consulting engineer firms I worked at, I did not find many qualified designers.  I did note that there were a few designers/drafters that went back to school and became licensed engineers.  These were usually the most qualified designer/drafters.  The problem with designers that have the depth of knowledge to make a good design is that they typically choose to move on to a lead role instead of a support role.  This may be quite different in manufacturing where everyone is given an engineer’s title.   

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

If you search online at jobs for engineers. If there's a requirement to know how to use a CAD program very well, the salary is almost always better.

Zapster, I agree with you regarding electrical. Electrical schematics, single line diagrams and panel board schedules have to be the easiest and most boring drawings I've ever had to do. I am currently working with 2 electrical engineers who don't know how to use AutoCAD enough to create these drawings.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Can an engineer put together a quality drawing package, per standards, and make it understandable for a michinists AND inspector AND Q.A. to read? Most of the time ... no. Designers and drafters are hired for that job. If a company has only engineers doing this work AND can meet these criteria, stars for them. It is rare.
What is the difference between a CAD jockey and a designer?? A drafter, designer, engineer or anyone else can be a CAD jockey.
I asked several mech. engineers from a few different small companies (during a seminar in a room) if their drawings and documentation are configuration controlled. They didn't know what I was talking about. I asked them if they design in 3D, they said yes. I asked them what software, they said AutoCAD (not Inventor or Mech Desktop, etc) just ACAD. SO, it's not 3D, it's 2D. I got blank stares.
I think it's a good idea for engineers to use CAD, if they would be trained correctly on how to create dwgs and how to use effectively. Too many engineers see CAD as just another tool to play on and get them thru the day.

Chris
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

This is fun. I am English and brought up in the Draftperson and Engineer culture as you first 'NO' point describes. Works fine because Engineers cant do CAD. So NO

But

I moved to Norway 4 years ago and they do it different. There are no draftspersons only Engineers and everybody can do CAD. Sounds odd because you'd think so much time would be wasted on drafting but saves a whole world of time not sketching and trying to communicate solutions to others without drawings.  And the bonus is that you rely on youself - took me 2 years to get the hang of CAD but works wonderfully and the whole system is flexible. And the people who are educated as technicians are basicly engineers but used to a lesser degree as enginners and more to drafting.

Just wish they'd all speak English (they can but prefer their own language)

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

(OP)

Quote (seansweeney):

Just wish they'd all speak English (they can but prefer their own language)

I guess we can't hold that against them smile

They do have a totally different way of working than the UK.  Its a lot more effective as well.  I just think they do the whole work-life balance so much better than we do.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

ctopher (Mechanical)
28 Jan 06 20:09
I spent aprox 2.5 years training drafters/designers/machinists/techs how to use CAD and wrote standards. Out of all, everyone learned something and improve their skills with dwgs, file mngmt and design ... except the engineers.

ctopher, you seem to harbor some ill feelings towards the engineering porfession.  Keep in mind the text under the logo at the top left hand corner of you monitor, “INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS.”

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

No ill feelings towards the eng prof at all. I was an engineer once. Just stating as I see it from my experience.
Not trashing anyone or any profession.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

"Can an engineer put together a quality drawing package, per standards, and make it understandable for a michinists AND inspector AND Q.A. to read?"

I'd say that depends on the situation.  In your case, evidently not.  That hardly makes it a blanket rule.  Yes, I can put together a quality drawing package that our welders and QU people can read.

"Most of the time ... no. Designers and drafters are hired for that job."  In fact, in the situations I've been in, the drafters (there weren't any "designers") knew less about what a quality drawing package ought to be than the engineers.  And hiring new drafters meant a sharp learning curve for our particular industry.

"If a company has only engineers doing this work AND can meet these criteria, stars for them. It is rare."  Once again, I think this depends on the company.  No, I'm sure I can't whup up a set of drawings that meets YOUR standards.  But yes, I can meet MY companies standards (and go far beyond them, for that matter).

"I asked several mech. engineers from a few different small companies (during a seminar in a room) if their drawings and documentation are configuration controlled.
 They didn't know what I was talking about."  Well, I don't know what you're talking about, either.  But I am fairly certain that NONE of the draftsmen I've ever worked with has a clue what that is, either.  Perhaps....perhaps it is not a useful concept in a small company?

"I asked them if they design in 3D, they said yes. I asked them what software, they said AutoCAD (not Inventor or Mech Desktop, etc) just ACAD. SO, it's not 3D, it's 2D. I got blank stares."
Not sure what you're getting at here.  Yes, AutoCAD does have 3-D capabilities.  I don't normally use 3D, I HAVE done a few things in it, can't say how useful it is overall, but you seem to assume that nothing in 3D can be done at all without Inventor or Mech Desktop, which is not the case.  Perhaps that explains the blanks stares.  

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

JStephan, Don't know why you are lashing out at me. Like I said, it has been my experience, not everyone's. Also, it is NOT my standards, I'm talking about general drafting/drawing standards. If you knew what they were, you would know what I was talking about.
Also, most ACAD users either don't use the 3D capabilities or don't know they exist. They use strictly 2D. How many ACAD users out there use 3D with just the AutoCAD package? They don't, unless they purchased Inventor or some solid modeling pkg.
Why do you have such ill feelings towards drafters and designers? I never questioned if YOU could create a quality dwg package. I was talking in general and from my experience. I started as a drafter, learned some machining, became a designer, then an engineer, now CAD admin. I've been there/done that.
So, from MY experience ... my responses above were my thought on why engineers should or should not use CAD ... not to trash anyone here. Sorry, but if you take my opinions too seriously, there's other forums for that.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

JStephen, actually AutoCAD does not have true 3D capabilities; ctopher is correct.wink

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I use 3D quite a bit actually.  Mostly mechanical assemblies - to see if it fits, to help me design the thing, etc.  Also some things are just plain eaiser to visualize in 3D.  CAD is nothing more than a means to an end. Communication with sales, regulatory body, customer, fabricator or erector.  Sometines 3D communicates better, then I use it.  Sometimes 3D makes the design go faster, then I use it.  CAD is a great tool, like MathCAD, VB or Excel.  I'm not a world expert nor to I use global standards.  My drawings tell a story, the layer names mean something to the casual user (Roof, Clip, etc) and the use of colors helps visually isolate or highlight sections that need attention and the linetype signifies center, hidden, boundary, etc.  Don't take my CAD away!!  I hate getting drawings from other companies that are all drawn in model space, not 1:1, with no polylines and with exploded dimensions.  It just does not help me do my job.  I get this crap from engineers, drafstpeople, managers, supervisors, etc.  No group is better or worse in my experience.  Learn to use the tools, make everyone else's job easier and stop fighting about ownership or rigid adherance to obscure standards.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Bare AutoCAD has two, mostly disjoint, classes of 3D capability, surfaces and solids.  I have used both, extensively, in 3D.  

Neither is going to win any ease of use awards, and both have limitations that should embarrass Autodesk, but I'd call them true 3D, as much as I'd call any CAD tool using a planar display, true 3D.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Autocad can do 3D wire frames, surfaces, and solid modeling but has limited tools for these functions.  I know someone that has been using Autocad to create models for analysis in Nastran.  Autocad is not parametric like Solidworks or ProE however.

-Mike

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

ctopher, don't believe I lashed out at you at all- re-read the post.  Nor do I have ill will towards drafters and designers- I think if you'll re-read, you'll notice that I have not actually worked with a designer, at least by that title.  And as stated, those are my experiences.  I realize yours are different.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Yes engineers should use any toold which makes their job easier and/or more accurate. Whether the work is 'finished', or 'cleaned up' by a drafting expert is another story.

BTW, This question was asked on a forum intended for use by engineers, on a subforum specifically dealing with CAD.  Don't you think that there may be a BIT of bias in the responses, as you will not likely have a representative sample reading this!

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

As a "non-engineer" I would say that knowledge of CAD is a desirable skill to anyone who "used" to make hand drawn sketches. But the use of CAD has led to the decline in drafting standards and likely the draftperson trade is destined to the same fate as cartwrights...eventually

My 2 cents.. Ralph

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I agree. This is partly why a lot of this work is outsourced, and a lot of the quality in dwgs have gone away.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

The world has been changing forever.  Consider than when they built some of those old cathedrals, they didn't have any way to copy a drawing, other than to copy another one.  I'm sure some people were perturbed when means of reproduction of documents came along.  On the other hand, a good bit of this thread has related to 3-D drawings, which simply weren't done at all prior to CAD of some kind.  I'm confident that there will always be a requirement to communicate ideas that aren't easily put into words.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

My personal experience with CAD says that you can make a usable drawing in about the same time you could do it on paper, but making a pretty drawing will take at least twice as long.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I can make a quality/readable engineering CAD drawing in a fraction of the time I can on paper. Hand drafting is where I started also. Making a pretty drawing will take anyone at least twice as long.
Not attacking you Mike, thanks for your input.
But CAD is much quicker than paper, that's why it exist.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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AutoCAD 05
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

A drafter is not an engineer

An engineer is not an drafter

But in my experience..I am a drafter and an engineer, but I always spent my worktime making design calculations,process simulation check PFD and P&ID,s etc. Although I am able to create and modify drawings comply client standards, we dont have time for that. Depending on project scope there are no manhours for engineers to do dwgs, but can be efficiently done by drafter who are  specialized in cad. Such software program like CAD costs a lot for the company (most lease based). It must be used at any time because we pay for it. An engineer will not be used it frequently or may be not at all unless he or she is a designer and is an authorized user.

So... lets keep in mind to put your best man for the best job he is good and has the skill resulting in a best practising and profitable project.Anyway this is my opinion....

Regards,

wati

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I am an engineer, and I currently use Visio to do my "sketches".

I have CAD experience also, although not recent (AutoCad 9).

If my company have floating licenses (non-dedicated), and one was available, I don't see why an engineer can't use it.

I am not saying that I should be producing finished drawings - there are way too many standards, templates, layers, etc. to get straight.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

CAD is much quicker than paper, when you have a template, e.g. a similar or opposite handed drawing file that's otherwise similar to what you want to end up with, OR, when you can use _your_ CAD station, that you've set up for just the way you do things.

Mostly, I get to sit at other people's computers, and try to make something presentable using a CAD program that someone else has screwed ... er, customized, for just the  way they do things.  And even if I change nothing, as is usually the case, I get blamed the next time the damn thing crashes or the regular user blows a schedule.  Or I get to 'just make a few changes' to a CAD file that came from a different universe.

I'd much rather pass hand sketches to a team of six or so designers, and let them work out the fiddly bits.  Right now, I couldn't find six good designers, even if I had the budget for them.  Those days are gone.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Mike, even without templates, it is quicker... if used correctly and users trained right.

If companies would take the time and make all pc's and users standardized the same, and maintained such way, there would not be no such file corruption or crashes. If all users were taught the same way and management inforced it, there would be more proficiant CAD users. I did it and it works. Too many campanies or managers don't know or don't care and let there employees use CAD how it is and learn to deal with the problems day to day. It's the real world. IMO, those who don't believe it, don't understand the real concept of CAD. (can be a new thread)

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

When you sit doan at someone else's computer, log in as you if you can and you'll not screw up their setup at all.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I wasn't thinking of using someone else's station. I have my own station and software. It's the rotating license that I need to snag to do my sketches.

I also hate it when someone messes around with my settings on my machine, so I don't mess with theirs when I have to use someone else's station.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Being the admin, I have logged numerous times on other pc's, never a problem. It's all in the settings of the user, the network and the pc.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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AutoCAD 05
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Yeah, well, you know what you're doing.  On a good day, I do too.

When I sat down to learn AutoCAD from a book, my boss rented a seat for me in an office in an unrelated business.  In two weeks, they were asking me questions.  Everybody there was self- taught, no book, no class, nothing.  They were doing E size architectural drawings, big development plot plans and such, all in the default color on layer 0.  They weren't even using osnaps.

Later I sat next to a guy who had given up on associative dimensions.  He was real fast, and his drawings looked nice.  I was assigned to take his 2D views and build 3D models out of them.  I couldn't do it without starting over.  He had been using 'near' as a running osnap for years.  Every intersection missed by .003" or so.

More recently, I've come across a large collection of beautiful drawings, each comprising an exploded isometric and at least 3 orthographic views of moderately complex assemblies.  In 2D.  Out of scale.  Every dimension overridden.  Totally friggin useless.

I'd like to believe that some company, somewhere, has well trained users and a well managed network.  I haven't found it yet.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Oh, Mike, you're bringing back nightmares of my last job.

I inherited the work after the original guy had a heart attack. As I started moving through his files I found the same thing.

Overridden dimensions
Non-orthogonal lines
Non-intersecting corners
Non-trimmed corners with overridden dimensions going to the outside

In my view, a lot of the so-called problems with AutoCAD are in fact due to sloppy use.

--------------------
How much do YOU owe?
http://www.brillig.com/debt_clock/
--------------------

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

I would like to point out that poor CAD practices are not limited to just drafters.  Although, I think engineers are less likely to "cheat" and tend to join lines, use associative dimensions, use multiple views in paper space instead of making copies of objects, etc.  I think that because engineers are not on the drafting clock, they take the time to creat the objects correctly the first time.  I know I do because it becomes a double-check on my calculations and assumptions.

In summary: Let Engineers Have CAD !!!

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

As a Hydrologist, I use CAD  occasionally when beginning a Hydrology Project.
Now, I plan to use it throughout the Sub Division Project. It is more complex but produces a complete solution faster.
It is difficult to explain to the very experienced CAD designer what the final product involves.
I just do not know how to convert PDF FILES to CAD files,  DWG versus DXF etc.
I am sure I can figure that out later.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

For a while I worked at a place where I was told that overriding dimensions or disassociating them would result in a warning and then a firing. If I got a drawing to revise that was violated then I was to fix it. "Cool!" thought I, "Finally a place that respects the software!"

Well, every DWG I got was meddled with on some level! I spent a lot of time repairing the drawings. About 2 months after I started the supervisor called me into his office and said I was gone because i was way too slow and several of the engineers had complained that I didn't know Acad (they were, of course, the least respectful of standards and the "klugy-est" Acad users there).

Someone mentioned (disparagingly) "pretty drawings." Honestly, I have never heard the term used by anyone but engineers. This is because they think getting the proper line-weights and other standards of the graphic language isn't important. Often I have heard criticisms that where dimensions are placed doesn't matter as long as they are there on the dwg. Sorry, but this often is the difference between taking several hours to interpret a drawing or taking 20 minutes. The "art" of drafting is in knowing where to place or cluster dimensions for ease of reading and minimum searching, and in knowing how to not crowd the dimensions so they are legible. I have known some engineers who understood this, but most don't care to or can't. There is a school of thought out there that if you know how to use the Cad program, then you know how to draft! That is like saying if you know how to use a calculator you can engineer. Granted, that idea has a greater following on parametric modelers that have the ability to p[lace dimensions on a drawing automatically. /But it still requires a good bit of tweaking to get it to be legible. The best illustration of this was an consulting engineer I worked with who turned in a 6 page drawing of a part. When it was sent to the machine shop, you could hear the screams through two floors! I was asked to clean it up. I reduced the size to 3 pages And in the process found many features that were dimensioned several times and a few features that were not dimensioned at all. I found the same view on four separate pages, with different dimensions for different clusters of features. None of the views were labeled nor was there any logic to why they were on four pages! I asked him why he did this and he said there were too many dimensions to fit on one view, he put them on different pages so they wouldn’t get confusing, and there were no labels because it was obvious they were the same view (apparently not to the machine shop, since this was one of their questions).  I was able to put all the dimensions on the same view and keep it clear and legible. BTW, he was an [excellent] design engineer, but needed to be kept away from the drawing side of SolidWorks.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

You were fired because engineers thought you were too slow, without warning?? Not a company I would work for.

Chris
Systems Analyst, I.S.
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AutoCAD 05
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RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Well, "fired" is a loose term. I was a temp. And the supervisor had a b-movie German accent and the diposition and age to have been in the Hitler Youth. And that was suggested often, by many. I have had offers from them since then, and believe me, I don't give them much of my time.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Engineer, draughter, cad operator, designer. All these terms!

When my dad worked in the 50's-80's, an engineer was also a draughtman/designer/pencil to paper person.

I remember him working over his draughting table in the living room of our house. He produced blue prints (back when they were blue and smelly), including the draughting, design, and engineering. He then also followed everything to the field, from ground breaking to completion. I remember visiting him at site with my mom. I also have the old kodak pictures of the site (it was really new back then, photographs).

An engineer needs to recognise his/hers own limitation when it comes to engineering. It is the same when it comes to cadding. If you have the skills, then go ahead. If you don't, recognise it and let someone qualified do that portion of the work.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Well, so many different items covered, finally thought I'd throw my two cents into the mix.

I work at a place with roughly the same number of engineering guys as there are drafters (technicians, is what they call us here, but it is what it is....)

A couple of the engineers are pretty adept at the Autocad, most overal are passable, able to open a drawing, modify a couple lines, and add a couple dimensions, a couple we wish could only open drawings read only.  For engineers having access to cad, here at least, it depends on who you're talking about.

For the drafters, well, I wasn't involved in the hiring process, or the situation would be different.  Being able to do things in Autocad isn't the same thing as being able to draft.  It's like any other program on the computer, it's a tool, that you have to understand the theory behind it to use effectively.

This applies to the engineers, as well as to the drafters:  When asked recently, I said "Hire people who know how to draft, even if they've never used Autocad.  THEN teach them Autocad."  It's easier to teach the program than the theory.

Ok, back to the engineering side:  One of the engineers here runs autocad better, and drafts better than all but 2 of us.  He does all his calcs and layout drawings in Autocad, correct layers, linetypes, etc.

Boils down to, yes, I think engineers should have access to cad, IF they follow standards, IF they can express what they want well enough that the drafters can clean it up and insert into the set of drawings.  This would make our lives much simpler, and increase our productivity.  It would also allow the engineers to take our drawings, and modify them as necessary to work structurally without needing to draw from scratch, increasing their productivity.

A couple big IF's in that, and I don't hold out a lot of hope, since we haven't yet managed that with the drafting staff.

RE: Should Engineers have access to CAD

Ideally engineers should have access to cadd drawings so long as they are trained to use it well. With the later packages of Land Desktop/Civil Design, and now Civil 3D, if an engineer is able to use them he can enter design and let the drafter work with the cosmetics. Alternatively, if an engineer is not schooled (or refuses to learn) in the software it is best to train the drafters to be designers and then let the engineer qc their work. I think it's most efficient if the engineers are trained to use the software effectively, utilizing all of the design tools available.

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