Will Discipline Help?
Will Discipline Help?
(OP)
I'm a manufacturing engin. for a small oil field tools manufacturer. The atmosphere here is VERY relaxed. No records are being kept on anyone’s tardiness or absences. Can anyone share their experience on a similar shop, and if this is a good way to run a plant. The system is not set-up to discipline workers, rather no one is in charge of it. Our company has a very good reputation for quality. Also my boss seems to have an aversion to discipline, but has not convinced me of it.
E.C.
E.C.





RE: Will Discipline Help?
Start hassling people about their presence/absence, and you'll convert a 'we' shop into a 'me/they' shop, and your quality will disappear. So, eventually, will your company.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Will Discipline Help?
I would say that the proof is in the pudding.
Just because you don't understand it, doesn't mean it isn't valid.
Could this be a case of "not invented here" syndrome?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
What do you mean by "not invented here" syndrome?
E.C.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Bigger problem with conducting tours: Visitors will see what you are _not_ doing. Smart people can infer a lot of commercially valuable information from that.
;--
If the operators were paid to clean the machines, _and_ if they were not paid for not cleaning the machines, they would clean the machines.
BUT ... adding negative incentives and thorough recordkeeping will change the culture of your company and cut into its productivity. If you have to double the headcount to get the same production numbers but with documented quality and a squeaky clean shop, the big boss may be disappointed at the cost of the results.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Will Discipline Help?
The way your boss runs his shop is very relaxed, no records are kept, etc.
and
Seems like you would like more discipline, more policies, more strictler policies, enforcement of policies, etc.
Seems like you boss is doing a lot of stuff right. A company usually doesn't get a reputation for "Good Quality" by doing shoddy work.
You are not convinced. Your boss is doing it a different way from the way you want to do it.
This is what I mean by "not invented here" syndrome.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
The boss is always right.
And the number 2 rule:
If the boss is wrong, see rule number 1.
Have you been charged with improving attendance records or improving shop attitudes? If not, then leave it alone and see rule #1.
"Wildfires are dangerous, hard to control, and economically catastrophic."
Ben Loosli
Sr IS Technologist
L-3 Communications
RE: Will Discipline Help?
I'm not trying to paint a dooms day picture, not all operators do this. The ones that act responsible are the ones that complain about the lack of control. We have a total of 20 shop employees, most with 7+ year tenures. Atleast half of all shop personel behave in the manner I'm describing. Keep in mind that I'm new to this company, and I'm going through a culture shock.
Eventually I'll just except the atmosphere and try my best to improve it with these guide lines. I'm just trying to understand it first.
Anyones input is very much appriciated.
Regards,
E.C.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Instead of being so unbelieving and cynical at "How can this be?", try to see all the GOOD stuff that is happening.
People are coming in late, taking 30 minutes more at lunch...what's the big deal? Maybe they aren't busy at that point in time. Do these same guys give up their nights or weekends when the client has an emergency and come in and bust their behinds for the company?
I worked for a boss (who replaced the old one when he retired) who literally watched the clock. If you left 5 minutes early, or was 5 minutes late, you heard it. Guess what everyone started to do...yup, they waited until 3PM EXACTLY (that was shift change), dropped whatever they were doing, and left. If the work wasn't quite done, well, it was 3PM afterall. The extra effort that people used to put in to finish the job, to help out, to work a little extra unofficial OT was gone. The boss wanted us there 7-3, well, he got it. If someone was sick, or went to a meeting somewhere, our crews were left short - no one wanted to come in to help.
Gee...that's got to be good for the company reputation, not to mention work flow, quality, etc, in the long run?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
I'm not a "Quality Guy", but this thread strikes a chord with me. I agree with the tone of what mrmrec is trying to convey.
The perception of quality may be there, but it is nothing more than a thin facade. The perception of quality can be shaped any direction and linger for years by popular opinion regardless of an organization's considerable effort. (How many of you don't use PENNZOIL because of the "high parrafin content"... Do you shop the meat counter at FOOD LION anymore?)
The only way "quality" can be achieved is through a consistent practice of quality processes. This means discipline, adhereing to a standard- in both product and performance, and penalty enforcment when elements of that program that fall short.
I refuse to believe that quality is "good" by accident or through casual effort. It takes determination and discipline to become "quality", it does not happen as a result of carefree attitudes and effort.
The Malcolm Baldridge award sets aside a wonderful criteria for operational and organizational excellence - or "quality" if you prefer.
Sometimes the best event that can happen for a group of people is for someone within to stand up, not be shy of cracking skulls together, and to enforce a set of standards. I believe armies win wars based on that presumption.
I challenge you mrmrec to stand up and be that person. The greatest reward may be yours.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Ultimately, we all should do what WE believe to be correct.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Which ever way we decide (strict or carefree) the difference will be in execution and follow through.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
If policies are not enforced/supported *in the long run* by him in a convincing manner, forget it. The employees will (naturally) find a preferable alternative in your boss at your detriment.
Too often I have seen managers like your boss to make policies and let it go by it laxism... This is a management style that you can't really change.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
-John
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Someone addressed the financial side of this string.
I'm sorry, but "quality" is supplying the best product for the best cost. Downtime, late starts, and cleaning up after others add cost . . . and it is unneccessary cost.
Sometimes a company can plod along merrily on its reputation or its output, but at some point, the wasteful cost will overtake the momentum. It's like a ship on the ocean . . . stopping the ship is not instantaneous, it actually takes miles to occur.
Strict or carefree, lack of structure is deadly.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Wrecking a part because chips piled up on the machine is not an effective use of materials.
Someone getting hurt because they trip or slip in a mess made by someone else adds cost to overhead.
Having customers look at a messy workplace can make them do business else where. A messy shop sometimes means messy work.
Paying someone to clean a mess in a small shop can cost more than having the employees clean up after themselves.
Having the mindset to keep a clean and orderly shop creates a quality atmosphere, and can only permeate into the product.
I own my shop and I vacuumed the office yesterday. I even cleaned the toilette and emptied the garbage cans. I really don't see how taking a little pride in your workplace can be a burden.
As for keeping track of attendance; as long as people understand that they work 40 hours a week, and they get their job done, there shouldn't be an issue. People need to communicate on the task at hand; everyone needs to understand what has to be finished, and who has the responsibility.
After that, you worry about yourself, not what others are doing.
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Will Discipline Help?
This is the OP.
No messy shop. No one getting hurt. Good reputation for quality.
The only concerns are:
a) very relaxed atmosphere
b) some people seem to be tardy
c) system is not set-up to discipline workers
My comments, again:
a) I think this is a good thing
b) This is probably the owner's job to manage. Also, not sure if someone coming in late is tardy - he may be staying late or doing OT some other time.
c) Again, this is the owner's job to manage.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
FYI for 2005 and 523 jobs shipped
On time delivery: 53%
Employee attendance 40hrs M-F: 86% w/4 emp. below 80%
Injuries: 2
NCR: 82
Let me just say that I appreciate everyones input. At the time I posted I hadn't made up my mind. I wasn't pro or against any of the two believes. But the truths is that there is ALOT of opportunity to improve, and I was basically asking if discipline would help. I'm seeing that there is may be a better way, but don't know that way, yet.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
You could get your on-time deliveries rate up by adding a week to what you promise, OR by measuring your actual delivery time and adjusting your promises accordingly, OR by adjusting a salesman's commission to zero when a delivery is late.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Let see, they work 40 hours a week. What was in their employment contract? Probably 40 hours a week. If you are going to ask them to help you out (bad scheduling, bad promisis by the sales guy, stuff happens and you are late), wouldn't it be better to be nice to them so they want to help? Instead of harping on 15 breaks, writing them up and suspending them.
By the way, what are you doing personally to help get that part that is 2 weeks late out the door in 3 days? Are you coming in and woking 16 hours a day?
If you are not, what kind of example are you setting.
If you are, great, you are setting a good example. Anyone else following you?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Getting back to your original question. I have never worked in a shop with the atmosphere as relaxed you describe it, but I have worked for a company that ran a very tight ship and also one that had a somewhat relaxed atmosphere.
The highly organized and disciplined company was in a very competitive industry that required that all costs be kept to an absolute minimum. It was a very difficult atmosphere for most of the employees. This company was very profitable and competitive for many years until other companies took a different approach to achieving the same objectives for the customers and over time the company due to its inability to adapt to the new reality went out of business.
The somewhat relaxed company had products based upon an entirely new design of an ancient product and grew and prospered for many years. Eventually, other companies started making similar products and over time created a very competitive atmosphere. This company still exists, but is now a much smaller operation than it once was. It could not find the disciplines necessary to stay competitive.
My thoughts on your situation lead me to think that either your company has a unique product, or the product quality level is so high that customers keep returning although the promised deliveries are not too great. Based upon my experience, I hope everyone who are enjoying this situation understand that it will not last forever. Assuming that there is a reasonable profit to be made, some day, someone will come along and either buy your company out, or compete and put it out of business.
You personally seem to be in a situation where you cannot abide what you are seeing and yet are helpless to change it. In my opinion you really need to consider moving to another company that has an atmosphere that is more compatible with your notions of how a company should be run. It looks as if you will not be able to change anything there.
Hope this helps.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Yes then, discipline will help, but it is the management that has to disciplie itself...to manage effectively, set schedules, communicate the goals, create the group dynamics and get the job done.
Sloppy management. 52% is very poor
Charlie
www.facsco.com
RE: Will Discipline Help?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
A lot of people are saying that the shop is good, don't mess with it. But until you are 100% on time delivery, you are not good. Sorry. But that too is a reflection of quality
My thoughts,
Joe
RE: Will Discipline Help?
mrmrec,
My advice would be to establish KPI (Key Performance Indicators) that would demonstrate that all of the items that you mentioned as non-discipline related do actually affect quality and productivity.
OTD (on time delivery) mentioned by JoeMoss is one KPI. Quality first time right is another one (saying quality is good does not mean much until you have measured it benchmarked to your competitors). There are plenty of other KPI that you can find - Use the seven form of "muda" created by the Kaizen method (search internet).
Then establish the absolute performance (100% right first time, zero work accident, etc...). Then root cause the gap -
Once you have nicely packaged all that, then you will have a lot of good stuff to show your boss as of how much money is wasted and what exactly does it mean that the current way of doing is the right way ;-/
Good luck!
Max.
PS: You can be in a relaxed environment and world class at the same time. Being 6 sigma does not mean that everybody is stressed out! On the contrary...
RE: Will Discipline Help?
mrmrec,
I just noticed your message about OTD... 53%.
What are the 47% missing due to?
100% is you absolute result -
There are 47% missing...? Use the 80/20 rule and start root cause the big chunk creating the delays. (by the way, this means 47% of customers potentially unhappy with your service!??) -
Run workshop with the people showing the results of your findings, and brainstorm with them what we can do to improve -
Proceed the same way with the other KPI's
Leave discipline aside for now - it is not a critical issue it seems at this point -
Max.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Nick
"Speed costs money boys, how fast do you want to go?"
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Nick,
You will not make me believe that the 47% delays are all due to the customer.... that is why I recommended root cause analysis -)
Max.
RE: Will Discipline Help?
...and I agree that it happens a lot that the customer wanted it yesterday... it happens all the time where I work... and customer's king as we say !
It's in my company less than 10% - which probably matches the industry average from what I have seem in forums and discussion with other folks also in the oil business -
Max.
\
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Keep in mind that I'm new to this company, and this industry, and to the workforce in general. I still developing my own ideas about how an I.E. or engineer involved in mfg. should act and do. So being young I tend to be easily influenced by this man's opinions. Of course I take everything with a grain of salt. And that's why I came to this website seeking advice. I'll try to once more monitor KPIs and hopefully I'll find one that strikes a chord w/my boss.
I want to believe that I have a TREMENDOUS opportunity here. To be the only person at this company concerned with the numerical performance of the company yesterday, today and tomorrow. But this guy's making feel like if I'm not designing on AutoCAD, or purchasing material, or running a machine, I'm of no use to him.
Jeez the longer this thread gets the more details I'm giving of my situation. And believe me there is still more
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Until you give all the details, it will be tough for people to respond intelligently.
"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
1) Quality - You can ship quality parts; it just depends on who has the final say in what goes out the door. If it's a job shop (which it sounds like), your shop foreman and/or final QA guy will retain pretty good control of this. In a way, you're "inspecting quality into" the parts when you do this. It's not financially optimal, but it can work (at least it did for me). Changing the culture of the guys on the floor will be slow and gradual. You start by asking them to record certain sizes, then slowly add in more, etc. If the foreman spot checks, or you spot check, and correct them when it's wrong, you'll usually find them starting to check their own work a little more closely. Note that this can take a long time; and if you're the new guy, you will face a LOT of opposition when trying to implement something like this. That's why you do it in a gradual, subtle manner.
2) License stuff - If you're a job shop, realize that ISO standards for statistics collection (which auditors love) may not be a great measure of what your performance actually is. It's all in how you define the metrics. My shop measured things like OTD accurately; scrap percentages were a different ballgame. When you are a one-of-a-kind facility, that metric can be misleading. That might be the BS your boss is talking about. For those misleading metrics which don't help you effectively run your company, you set up the process to specifically look good to an auditor. Your auditor is happy, and it's painless data collection on your part.
3) OTD - this is your foreman's job, or the boss who schedules the work. Tread lightly here. There are ways to make it better, but if you're not asked, be very careful how you offer suggestions.
4) Changes - you state that you're new to the company, industry, and workforce. I was there a few years back. My advice to you is this: Crusty old toolmakers/machinists have specific ideas about how things are done. They do not like being told by kids fresh out of school with booksmarts and no on-the-job experience what to do. You can only change the situation, and subsequently their attitudes, over time. Small changes which yield small successes will work better than trying to overhaul the system. You have to prove to them that it works before they'll accept it...at least that's the way my shop was.
5) KPIs and monitoring - Hint here: if you're going to monitor them and present the results, throw in a few suggestions on how to change poor performing categories. If the market is tight competitively, and your company is losing money or market share, your boss is probably aware of it. Simply giving him more bad news may tend to exacerbate the situation. If you're going to bring up the bad, then spend a little more time thinking about the process and try to offer some good suggestions which may help.
- Z
RE: Will Discipline Help?
I was in no way implying that 47% was entirely the fault of the customer, or acceptable. We were at about 17%, but all be told it ment alot of long nights for the guys who were up to the challenge.
Nick
"Speed costs money boys, how fast do you want to go?"
RE: Will Discipline Help?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Attend the 8:30 staff, disappear, and return for the 4:00 wrap-up??
RE: Will Discipline Help?
RE: Will Discipline Help?
Don't worry about it; just do as you are asked, get your pay check and go home to your life.
or
Quit :)