Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
(OP)
Has anyone ever heard of a reaction that uses Acetic acid, or Sodium Acetate using Sondium Hydroxide to produce Methane gas? I am talking on a production scale, not lab scale.
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Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
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RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
I don't mean to sound negative...I am curious more than anything else.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
What would the benefits be to doing this?
Patricia Lougheed
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
I am not sure of birkATO's situation, and this is pure speculation but I am guessing:
1) doesn't have methane gas available, but does have access to acetic acid and caustic?
2) can't handle gas (no pipe), but can handle liquids (has rail)?
3) just curious?
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
That is exactly what I'm saying. Methane is used to make petrochemicals. Petrochemicals are not used to make methane.....think of it like taking some ashphalt, diesel, kerosene, and gasoline mxing them up to make crude oil. What purpose would this serve.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
I believe your comments are in line with my questions as well.
I was going to write a bit more but deleted it....I was starting to rant a bit.
Oh just one...you need between $3 and $4 dollars worth of acetic acid to make $1 worth of methane (I am not familiar with the reaction so I am assuming that you get 2 mols of methane for each one of AA. If you get only one then double the number). Then add in caustic and all the other operating costs.
Maybe if get a response from birkATO we can satisfy our curiousity.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
I think we are all thinking the same thing.
The one other thought I had is that should methane be a key ingredient to a high margin product, then cost of the acetic acid and caustic would be justified.
I too am waiting for birkATO's response.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
The cost would be 'partially' justified. There are cheaper ways of making methane from liquids or solids.....just get some cows or pigs ;).
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
I agree.
To add to the cows or pigs option, another common source of methan is garbage dumps. They have to put methan vents in them anyways, so some entrepreneur can pipe it to a plant. Oh, that and beans! Tee Hee Hee
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
My wife thinks that I am a pretty good source of methane too. During my peak production rates I'm sure she would love to send me off to wherever this plant is.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
Laughing Out Loud!!!
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
Just a thought, maybe your client should consider diluting and bottling up the waste acetic acid, maybe with a bit of perfume? Those are the main ingredients in nail polish remover, something I buy frequently!
In a more serious vein, it would be a better solution to find ways to use the acetic acid or to sell to another company than to try to turn it back into methane.
Patricia Lougheed
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of the Eng-Tips Forums.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
I presume you have never heard of any such reaction either. If you consider your first year chemistry course (if you are a degreed Chem Engg), then the only thing that makes sense is that you will neutralize the acid. I presume the AA is in an aqueous solution. If you add caustic you get sodium acetate. As far as I know, adding more caustic will only raise the pH further. If high pH will destroy the acetate anion then that would be a very interesting piece of information.
Is there a reference for this suggested reaction? Or is this someone's wild idea?
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
David
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
NaH + CH3COOH --> CH4 + NaCOOH
ΔGRxn = -184.7 kJ/mol per my CRC Handbook values.
It's been investigated for methane generation for fuel cell vehicles, but I think not feasible due to NaH cost & NaCOOH byproduct.
Also, the reaction is rapid & requires anhydrous acetic; NaH reacts with water & you end up with sodium acetate as mentioned by Zoobie.
But NaH may be worth considering as a good storage means for H-fueled vehicles.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
Yup. Guilty.
Actually, I don't have the capability to tell if your reaction would work either... so... I'll leave it to my more learned colleagues to comment.
RE: Acetic acid +NaOH = Methane?
birkATO, what is the waste stream composed of? If it is an aqueous solution then you will be faced with azeotropic distillation to get to anyhydrous AA.
Well it is almost supper time and I tend to get cynical before dinner so I better sign off.