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What to do about George...
15

What to do about George...

What to do about George...

(OP)
The name has been changed to protect the... well, I don't know if "innocent" is really the right... well, anyway, the name has been changed...

George is the manager of a newly established department in the building services group of a multi-disciplined engineering consulting and land-surveying company, in the upper Midwest.   George has been in charge of this new department for about two (2) years.

George is a very nice guy.   George is very likeable.   George has been adjudged competent to practice professional engineering.   George is not a very good leadership choice for establishing and growing a department.   Examples of this…

George can’t seem to judge project time.   When a new project comes in that might reasonably occupy only a third of an engineer’s or drafter’s time, he consistently over-estimates its complexity.   It is not uncommon at all to hear George remark, “Oh, are you already done with that?”   Part of this is that George may not be used to working on too much of anything larger than strip malls or multi-family structures, himself.   (that last remark was culled from conversations with colleagues of George from other offices.)

George can’t judge talent.   George has at least one drafter too many on his staff; but in managing with his heart instead of his head cannot bring himself to trim the resources down to what’s necessary.   This is a situation that has existed for almost a year, and shows no signs of changing soon; just like our workload.   More importantly, George consistently passes the more important work over the brighter, better qualified and more experienced of the two, only to assign it to the dullard.   George should recognize that, with one of the drafters still at the earliest stages of development (and not moving forward quickly) and the other drafter at about a decade of experience (and heck-on-wheels fast, accurate and meticulous about self-checking), the one should be working UNDER the other; assuming there were enough work for two drafters in the first place.   Instead, George has taken to sending the best drafting talent we could ask for in this region off to other offices to do THEIR drafting work.   George is really working hard to validate the existence of the second position, and in the process is on his way to running off the real talent.

George doesn’t seem to know his own role.   As a department manager, one might reasonably expect that George would be slightly less billable to projects than his staff engineers; what with all of the marketing that a department manager should be doing.   And, even assuming times are slow, George’s first responsibility as department manager is to keep his people busy with whatever work he CAN secure; not keep said work to make himself more billable.    Instead, George’s staff engineers have to literally approach him and beg off work from George that he would otherwise squirrel away and keep for himself.

George’s best “clients” are other departments within the company.   George’s main marketing strategy is hyper-focused around building and maintaining relationships with THESE people, almost exclusively.   George should look around outside the company, and recognize that there are people working for OTHER companies that might actually hire us.   These people are called architects.   They are usually listed in the Yellow Pages.   It’s alright to call them.   They might reject you, initially, for some amount of time.   It’s still alright to call them.    It’s even alright to call them more than once.

George is licensed in a neighboring state in which the company has no department assets of our type.   This means that George has the WHOLE state open to him to market.    Of course, inexplicably, George chooses to spend virtually NO time marketing in that state.   Even our FIRE PROTECTION folks (in other words, PEOPLE WHO DESIGN SPRINKLERS…!) are making money down there, for goodness’ sake…

George is slowly, and very certainly losing the confidence of the people under him.   Even a subordinate who has traveled a fairly long road with George thus far has remarked that he has no idea what logic George is employing in even the most routine circumstances; that he has no idea “…what the heck [George] is thinking, at all…”   Some of George’s staff are agitated and even upset.   It is a fact that there are other department managers who are aware of this discontent and who understand how it is affecting the growth potential for the department and for the building services group in general.    However, it seems not to have excited anyone further up the chain of command, to any extent whatsoever.   In fact, it even seems that George received something of a pep-talk from some of his higher-ups not too long ago, wherein they voiced their apparent confidence in his ability to lead and develop the department.   It is truly an unusual situation; that a department manager should earn such confidence as George has from HIS managers, without first securing and maintaining the confidence of his OWN subordinates.    One would suppose that the latter would be far easier to establish than the prior.   Strange… very strange, indeed.

George blew a HUGE opportunity to rectify the above-stated confidence issues with ALL of his subordinates, at the recent end-of-year reviews …

George is a very nice guy.   George is very likeable.   George has been adjudged competent to practice professional engineering.   George is not a very good leadership choice for establishing and growing a department.

What can be done about George?   Can anything be done about George…?   SHOULDN’T something be done about George…?!!

RE: What to do about George...

4
I think your spending too much of your time evaluating George. It seems to me that George's managers are the ones who should praise Goerge or correct him. If your unhappy then maybe you should find other employment opportunities where your management skills will be appreciated. :>)

RE: What to do about George...

Suddenly, I find myself hating the name George.

cheers
Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: What to do about George...

3
George seems to be doing what HIS manager expects/wants of George.

Maybe they know something ...?

RE: What to do about George...

(OP)
Actually, imok2, I am currently talking to an outfit right across town; and to tell you the truth it looks pretty promising. I just hate to bail on something that otherwise has sooooo much potential. I really like the folks here, and the work is very satisfactory, when we have it. With our company’s commitment to continued education, I’m staying sharp and even making very good strides, technically. The pay is better than average, and the benefits are second to none around here.

Also, our company is a real player in this region; with five offices in three states, and every consulting engineering and land-surveying discipline under the sun. The potential for our own discipline, in a company like this, should be very high; which is why I’m so frustrated with George. In two years, we should have grown; instead we’re barely scraping by...

And, the fact is I’ve already gotten the “green light” to market that neighboring state that I whined about earlier, myself. Our upper management gave me their blessing, noting that, “…that’s definitely a market we should be exploring…” My question is (and, since I actually enjoy HAVING a job, I didn’t bother to ask this out loud to my bosses), why should I have to chase down work that way in the first place, when George is pulling down about twenty-five grand more a year than me to have that little chore listed in HIS job description...?!!

If I gotta do MY job (which is, ostensibly, engineering, mentoring of junior staff, and client retention through contact incidental to my work) and I also have to do HIS job (active, on-the-road-again type, first contact marketing), then what the heck is HE supposed to be doing for that fatty of a paycheck...?

That’s all I’m wondering...

RE: What to do about George...

"If I gotta do MY job (which is, ostensibly, engineering, mentoring of junior staff, and client retention through contact incidental to my work) and I also have to do HIS job (active, on-the-road-again type, first contact marketing), then what the heck is HE supposed to be doing for that fatty of a paycheck"
But again I say "isn't that for his manager to determine"? If you have the right stuff and it sounds like you do, then I say you will be rewarded for it and not concern yourself with what you consider others short comings and for heaven sakes keep these feelings to yourself...What goes around comes around.

RE: What to do about George...

tipsteronline,

Since you have been given the "green light" to market in a neighboring state, it seems you have been granted an opportunity to prove yourself capable of being promoted to a department/office manager (possibly in that state assuming you are licensed as well).  For that you may end up thanking "George" for having the time to do such exploration.  One of George's responsibilities (should) be the development of people under him.  How he chooses to do so is up to him.  An inexperienced drafter needs work and feedback to become experienced (you mention mentoring junior staff as one of your responsibilities as well).  So by sending more work to a junior drafter is a way of providing needed exposure.  His retention of work load has allowed (inadvertently or intentionally) you explore other areas of growth (personally and possibly for the corporation).

As a manager, George operation on a different information horizon than those working for him.  As imok2 indicates, it is George's superiors that determine whether or not he is doing the job he is expected to do.  Do not think that his superiors are unaware of how the department is performing.  I have seen managers given good reviews and pep talks right up until the day they are asked to leave the building.  If upper management overtly shows loss of faith in your boss, what would that do to productivity within your department (food for thought)?  The one area that perhaps is lacking is communication from George to the department staff as to what is coming up and what the expectations are.  Communication needs to flow both ways.  If you are upset with your situation, have you spoken to him about it?

Regards,

RE: What to do about George...

(OP)
I can tell that you have achieved the virtue of patience, imok2... I'm just not sure how you managed that in the consulting world; if, indeed that's where you're writing from.

I appreciate your thoughts on this matter; especially yours, CorBlimeyLimey.  I only hope I haven't put you off George's forever...

RE: What to do about George...

(OP)
PSE,

I have spoken with him, to the extent that I feel I can without alienating him.   I think I’m juuuuuust on the verge of making him feel threatened; probably by my (rather overt) attempts to market AROUND him; instead of through him…   I can’t help it; he won’t DO any real marketing, himself.    And when I offer to do it myself, he just hems and haws…

We cannot simply sit around staring at the sky waiting for work to FALL out of the clear blue, in this business.   We have to make some effort at getting out there; at connecting with potential clients.   As most of you know, in consulting the relationship with the client is almost as important as the technical competence of the expert.   Marketing and client retention is a people thing, most of all.   You can’t just offer it these days; you have to SELL it.   George REALLY feels like he’s bothering the heck of a potential client if he calls them more than about annually… no sarcasm in that statement… really.   The guy’s just not interested in marketing.

As far as talking to him about staff issues, well, that’s a tough one… I find that they come to me daily, almost in turn, to bitch and complain about George; as though there were ANYTHING that I could do about it besides offer an ear.   I cannot bring myself to advance other employee’s agendas; they need to use their own voice, if they really want to be heard.

I do appreciate your insights, PSE.   I’ve also seen that play from corporate; wherein they make blatant demonstrations of confidence in an employee (or manager) right up until they show him (or her) the door.   Ours being a brand-new department in an office full of established and successful departments, my concern is not that they might eventually consider that George has failed; but that they might consider the whole concept of our fledgling department a failure.   I’ve already seen entire disciplines depart from other offices in this company, and I don’t want to find myself out there on the curb next to George.

Makes me think that much harder about that other job, across town…

RE: What to do about George...

2
Tipster,

I find it hard to give advise based on your information which does not sound like it is 100% objective. Spend less time thinking/writing about George. You have to work with him, not around him. No boss is perfect. Spend time on your job (this one or the other one if you prefer).

RE: What to do about George...

(OP)
epoisses,

All very valid points...

RE: What to do about George...

Tipsteronline, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume your appraisal of George is right on. That being the case, I see two possibilities. As has already been suggested, upper management has got George's number but they're putting on a good face for the troops.  We had a "George" and it took 'em four years to get rid of him. They sang his praises right up until the day they kicked him out the door. The funny thing is, they think they are preserving team spirit or whatever, but people are really thinking, "How stupid can you be?"  Anyway, if it's this case (how would you know?), you may want to hang in there, do your job and don't worry about George.

Of course, there is always case two. Upper management is as clueless as George and they won't realize the ship is sinking (OK, I'm given to exaggerate) until they're breathing water.  In which case (again, how would you know) I'd be looking real hard at that job across town.

RE: What to do about George...

tipsteronline,

Sounds like you are very close to your "I have had enough of this B.S" limit.  If you are no longer happy in your position and have an exit opportunity like you indicate, you may indeed want to take it.  Providing you do not burn bridges, you may be able to return to this firm at a later date if/when conditions improve.  One red flag for upper management to act is when a middle manager's staff starts having a high rate of attrition.

Regards,

RE: What to do about George...

(OP)


PSE,

I have actually seen that happen, around here... folks returning, I mean.   I know it's possible to pull that off.   It would definitely linger in the back of my mind, if I do decide to move across town; and I would certainly continue to cultivate the better relationships I've been able to establish with higher-ups, here, even after leaving.   It's a small market, and I think I could manage to stay in front of them, occasionally; at social and professional type functions, and so on.

dozer,

I appreciate the benefit of the doubt.   I think it’s just GOT to be case one.   There are just TOO many bright folks in upper management… a little greedy, and plenty of agendas… but just all around too damned bright to NOT recognize what’s really going on.

I just wish like heck I knew what their ultimate plan was, before I scooted outa here.   Without even considering myself a possible for that position, there are just SO many qualified old-timers around here that we could easily snatch up, clientele and all, to establish and grow a viable group in this company.   I can’t help but wonder if they’ve even considered THAT…

RE: What to do about George...

Maybe I'm young and naive, but is there no way you could find out what the mgmt views as your future role?  Go to George's boss and say "I really like the work, the people here but I want my career to progress and I am wondering if you see me leading a department in the future or should I consider outside offers".

There has to be someway to break that out, all these people in this forum...someone has to have done that.

Just make sure you can get that other job first...hehe

RE: What to do about George...

Why would you put your own career at stake by saying, basically, "take it or leave it", just because you don't like George?

RE: What to do about George...

(OP)
Well, I've actually GONE to upper management already, 49078; in the hopes that somebody... anybody... else is seeing the way things are going in our young department. They didn't really tip their hand about whether or not they're leaning toward some sort of change; but they did seem to indicate that they're listening. And, some of the department managers from other areas of the company have (separately) told me to "... hang in there, for now...", and to "... be patient; discussions are being had...", and so forth. Most of them have worked with each other quite a while, and I don't really much know any of them from Adam; so I hope I'm not being played. The way things are going, it doesn't feel so much like a "career" as only just a "job"...

Our better drafter (the decade-plus one) has become almost despondent; languishing on what amounts to clean-up work while watching the other drafter (two-year nitwit) being given new job after new job, lately. I finally decided it was worth just going to George and laying it out. I told him, hey, I think the way you're managing the drafting is going to cause our most experienced person to walk. He seemed to have no idea what I was talking about. I supposed from his surprise that the drafter had only been lobbying me up to that point. But now it was MY turn to be surprised; when he suggested that (1) if we didn't get busier, we might have to let one of the drafters go, and (2) in his mind, it would be a REAL toss-up...!!! In case you haven't been following the game, let me just tally up the score once more: drafter A, decade-plus of experience, reliable, diligent, hardworking, great attention to detail, back-checks own work, etc., etc... drafter B, reject from another department, saved by George from being fired by previous manager for incompetence (George generously offered to take them on as our new department's first drafter), almost two years of structural drafting experience (not really all that good at it, to date, and not improving real fast...). Wouldn't you know it, though, George is REEEAAALLY leaning toward drafter B... I've never had a boss that managed so much with his heart, rather than using his head. I mean, of course you HATE to let anyone go, for lack of work; but from a business standpoint, this decision ain't even a horse race...

Just to give you a BIT more perspective on George's (mis-)management style, if you will, please note the following: my most recent project (which is still only in schematic) has a $50K structural fee, it is our first bite at the proverbial apple with a very important local owner, and it is our first project with a very prominent, nationally recognized architectural client. You might think that, with all of that riding on the line, you would want to put your best foot forward; you know, send out your "A-team". According to George, the best choice in assigning drafting to the project is... you guessed it... drafter B. When the overall discipline project manager found out, he literally said, "I don't want them on this project. Tell George to give us [drafter A], instead..." Of course I had to remind him that, although I would talk to George about it, it wasn't really up to me or him (the overall project manager), that it was a structural department thing, and blah, blah, blah... It was embarrassing... This project manager, (a manager, himself, of another department) could plainly recognize the flaw in George's logic; but clearly there seemed to be NO second thought about it, by George. Of course he stood right by his choice of drafter for the structural work on the project. (When suggesting the change to George, I mentioned every good reason I could think of, EXCEPT that the overall project manager had requested that I suggest the change... at the time I felt that this questioning of his logic by another department manager might only make him defensive... in retrospect, I probably should have mentioned it; although that manager DID send me to do his dirty-work, rather than going straight to George, himself with his concerns.)

Anyone who has EVER done any amount of marketing (one of George's main marketing strategies is to look up at the sky, longingly, and wait for the projects to drop into his outstretched arms...) knows that there's no second chance to make a first impression. If we want to show an important, brand-new client that we're the best game in town... if we want to convince an owner who provides substantial quantities of lucrative design and construction projects to this region that we can take the best care of them... well, as a person who actually MARKETS to clients and prospective clients, in my opinion this is quite simply not the way to go about it.

Well, as I mentioned, we’re still sitting in schematic… I haven’t given up ALL hope yet that something will happen to save this project, structurally. Besides all of the other implications, we also need to make some money on this job; and drafter B is NOT likely to help make that happen, easily; if at all… while drafter A and I have proven on several jobs that, together, we are more than capable of that.

An old military adage from back in my infantry days comes to mind: piss-poor planning leads to piss-poor performance…

RE: What to do about George...

tipsteronline,

I have been EXACTLY where you are. You have two options: 1) Check your ego, become a company man, and "hang in there" without saying another word about this unless asked by upper management

2) Continue on the same path you are on, letting it gnaw at you, thinking you could do a better job of managing, and start looking for another job while hoping upper management bails you out.

I went with #2 and they let me go 1 month before I had planned on quitting. You will not win the battle with George. If he is managing with his heart instead of his head, you will NOT sway his opinion. Your efforts and talk on this subject will be seen as disruptive and you will be out.

Having been there, I recommend #1 so that you can leave on your own terms.

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: What to do about George...

When you put your head above the parapet, expect to be shot at.
Management and, to be fair, normal people too, tend to remember all the wrong things when making decisions.
In another thread somewhere it was stated that most deciisions are based on emotion, not logic.... everyone except engineers who tend to be the other way round, apparently.
This means that when it comes time to "Rationalise" "Downsize" etc decisions will be made on all the "wrong things" e.g. "Tipsteronline always seemed to be a bit of a rebel and a chauvenist. Not a team player."
They won't be looking at who does what and how well, but at who gives them the most grief.....
.... and remember that when there is a mutiny they always round up a few "ringleaders" (the ones who did the talking, not necessarily the agent provaocateurs who put them up to it) and hang them "as a message to the rest.

Whatever the merits of the case as you see it, management always has a different view and when it comes to eye candy (my chauvensit deducion) or the guy who is always challenging the managers leadership style, you know who the manager will put out of the boat and into the water.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: What to do about George...

zcp,

I appreciate your experience in this area.  Frankly, I'm starting to feel that you're absolutely right on, here; and I think I've made about as much noise as I possibly can at this point, anyway...   As far as being a company man, well, I've always tried to pitch my views as, "I'm only looking out for the company...", even to George.   Maybe I'll just shut the hell up, for a while and see what develops.

jmw... your "Cain Mutiny" scenario now scares the HELL out of me; from the standpoint that I have, indeed been lobbied to assume the role of mouthpiece for the rest of the department.   It's just hard, when other people are looking to you to do something that they (apparently) just cannot muster the backbone to do themselves... I really AM a team player; I have been my whole life.   That's why I feel compelled to speak out; on behalf of a group that, if properly utilized could BE a great team.

As you point out, I probably have already branded myself a troublemaker, just by my actions to date.   Do I now just shift gears into looking out only for number one; or should I try to CONVINCE some of the others to step up and join the fray…?   Could there BE strength in numbers, in a situation like this…?

RE: What to do about George...

Sorry for the Handle change, right there in the middle of the thread, folks... I had started out using a secondary (tipsteronline), because one of our other structural folks was an avid eng-tips.com user, himself; and new my original handle (walterbrennan).   However, I've lately brought him up to speed on my (anonymous) broadcast of our predicament, via this thread; so there’s no reason to go on using the alias…

Again, sorry for any confusion…

RE: What to do about George...

This reminds me of a posting by unclesyd in another thread where he said:

"If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin."

RE: What to do about George...

Oh, you folks are a riot, you are...

Well, thanks all, for the bucketload of advice. My job hunt recently expanded from (just) the outfit across town all the way back to my home state. Depending on what I find, George may just have to go it without my sorry company.

Ironically, our other, junior engineer has joked that if I don't take that job across town (he only knows about that one), then maybe I should at least introduce HIM to them. If he knew I was looking OUTSIDE of town also, that probably wouldn't come off so much as a joke...! And, the guy across town has already got his eye on drafer A; point-blank asking if I could convince them to defect with me... the funniest part is, they probably would.

I wonder if upper management will take a different view when their structural "department" shrinks back to just George and drafter B... or, maybe they'll just sit around blamin' ol' walterbrennan...?

Not that I'd ever need to sabotage things, that way; George has (unwittingly) done a jim-dandy job of that already, himself. Nope, I won't bother interfering. For these poor, dumb bastards it's not WHETHER they're going to go; it's just WHEN and to WHERE...

I'll sign back onto this thread, one last time, when my end of things is all said and done; just for anyone who is morbidly curious. After that you may conduct your own post-mortem. I hope to get my licks in going out the door, but to not burn the really important bridges. But whatever else, I do plan to go. There HAVE to be better situations, somewhere; and I've gained all the gray I'm going to over George...

RE: What to do about George...

walterbrennan,

Frustration leads us all to do things. I am glad that you have decided on a path forward.

WRT getting "your licks in going out the door", I would advise to let it go. Think about what you are going to do, and what the likelyhood of the results are going to be.

Chances are, it would only make you feel better for an hour.

Chances are, it could make your life more difficult down the road, in ways you can not foresee now.

You have a path, take it. Leave the damaged baggage behind.

Just my 2 cents worth. Good Luck.

RE: What to do about George...

I have been following this with interest and wish you good luck on your decision.  Please keep us updated.

RE: What to do about George...

I’d have to vote with ashereng on this one.

NEVER BURN BRIDGES IF YOU CAN HELP IT.

There is never any benefit to it other than feeling better for an hour or so and always a downside that will arise in ways that you cannot foresee now. It may even hurt you without your knowing it. (What is 10 years from now, George is working for another company and throws your resume in the garbage?)

Walk out the door with your head held high and your professionalism intact, because after all living well is the best revenge.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: What to do about George...

Quote (RDK):

I’d have to vote with ashereng on this one.

Almost fell off of my chair. bigsmile

RE: What to do about George...

Well, the deed is done.   I just thought I’d update everyone on how things ended up; probably the last of my postings to this thread.

It was Tuesday Morning.   I dropped the letter on George’s desk, as I settled into the chair across from him.  It was short; just three paragraphs long.   It stated rather simply my intention to voluntarily terminate my employment, my offer to stay on as necessary through a certain date (in order to transition my concern in ongoing projects), and so on and so forth.

I tell ya, the guy had hardly begun to read it when he almost wiped his brow and exhaled in relief.   Then, almost as quickly his expression changed, and he launched into the obligatory, “…well, I didn’t expect this…” and “… you know, I wasn’t trying to run you off, or anything…” and the like.   I’ve never been through such an anticlimactic affair in my entire professional career.   It was like talking about the weather…!   He never even ventured to ask why; just accepted it without much comment.

I also copied my department cohorts; although all but one of them saw it coming, based on previous conversations.   Finally, I stopped in and dropped a copy on the office manager’s chair.   As I was actively engaged in projects with some of the other departments, I sent around a brief email to the same effect to the department heads in our office.   And that, as they say, was that.

Throughout the course of the day no fewer than four department heads (my own not among them, of course) sat down across my desk from me; each wanting to know why; why was I (seemingly) suddenly up and leaving…?   Their genuine concern, coupled with the fact that I wasn’t even IN any of their departments, made it all that much more baffling: the fact that by the close of business that day the office manager hadn’t even said a word to me.   Maybe I’m just WAY too low on the pole to understand it, but if I were the office manager, and the guy immediately below the manager of one of my departments just dropped a letter on my chair tendering his notice, I might pick up the telephone; or even just toddle on over, and try to find out why…?!

A couple of the department managers that came by to visit posed the radical hypothetical that, what if I was just handed the reins in structural; would that have kept me on…?   It was surreal to even hear it spoken out loud.   And, coming from people at their level, it was kind of a kick in the ass.   And, it certainly explained George’s state of mind; or, at least his reaction, upon my resignation.   If two of his fellow department managers were willing to throw that out there, even fancifully, out loud… well, it’s not hard to imagine that it had run through George’s mind a time or two, lately.   

The other structural feller in our department (Junior) lamented, and probably rightly so, that George’s “relief” wouldn’t last much more than a couple of weeks.   For the first time in about eight months, we’ve finally got a couple of decent sized projects coming in.   They’re not anything that I’d personally get too excited about, size- and type-wise; I’ve been there too many times before.   But they’ll be breakout projects, for Junior; assuming they give him the good drafter and just turn him loose on one.   Watching him develop, being a sounding board for him, I think he’s ready to turn that corner.   George, though… well, given his strip mall and multi-family background, George AIN’T gonna be up to these types of jobs, himself… at least not for the size budgets he’s gonna have at his disposal.   I’ve seen it over and over, since I’ve been here; too much wheel-reinventing going on, in his office.   He just doesn’t have the background to make money on the kind of jobs we’ve been getting.

Anyway, over the next few days, I began to let some others know, and of course by the end of the week there was no need to announce it further.   I got some very positive feedback from a couple of clients; which is always encouraging.   With others, I just hadn’t been around town long enough to get to know them, much better than tangentially, through some brief project interaction. But, nearly all of them were at least courteous enough to reply; if only as a matter of decorum.

And, so, in a few short weeks, I will close this chapter on my professional career; even as I begin anew.   Having in hand an offer from a nearby (former) colleague to come join his outfit, I felt it best to consider all viable options; rather than just jump ship to the OTHER outfit.   So, with the wife’s consent, I decided to have a look at options closer to where we had called home, years ago before coming to the upper Midwest.    I was surprised to learn that there was remarkable demand back in my old home state.   Before all was said and done, I had a salary offer that was more than fifty percent higher than my current wages; a substantial amount of money, considering that I am currently paid well above average for this region.   Of course the responsibilities are also a step up; but only on paper.   The only real change is that I’ll be getting PAID to do all of the things that I’ve been doing here, for George; mentoring juniors, writing proposals, setting budgets, managing projects, and marketing new and existing clients.   And of course, you guessed it, there will be NO George.   In fact, there will be literally NOBODY between me and the owner, managerially.   He just needs somebody to come on up and run the structural side of his company.   He’s offered to just move us up; lock, stock and barrel.   So, off we go.

I have appreciated all of your input on this matter.   I have elected to go along with the overwhelming sentiment that I should just take the high road, and leave without a big fuss.   Just like I told those department managers that came asking, it’s George’s shot at the big-time; let him give it his best go, without me sabotaging it on my way out.   (I don’t consider that my leaving, in itself, is an effort at sabotage.   Just looking out for me and mine…)   One of them suggested that, during my exit interview, I should, “…remain my candid ol’ self, when talking to H.R.”   I think I’m just going to resist that urge; however tempting it might be.   That suggestion coming from a department manager, combined with our office manager’s most recent behavior (and his past, which has been every bit leadership by BAD example) only goes to bolster my belief that everyone already KNOWS what’s wrong in that place, management-wise; it’s just that nobody is willing to call “B.S.” around here.   And sadly, as some of you have rightly pointed out, my doing so on my way out won’t change that attitude.   So, in like a lion, out like a lamb; I suppose.

Anyway, thanks for you input.   You’ve all been generous with your time.   I will post to this thread again only if anything remarkable occurs between now and the day I leave.   I do not expect that anything shall.   Feel free, as is the purpose of this contraption, to speak amongst yourselves.   Your (collective) analysis is always appreciated.

Good luck, and God Bless.

walterbrennan

RE: What to do about George...

Congratulations.
You now start fresh at a new company with a clean sheet and I would suggest that you keep number one at the top of the list in the survival stakes.
You can never avoid office politics but play the game for no.1, keep it purely defensive and minimal.

The message for us all is: Don't be drawn into someone else's office politics.

That's exactly what seems to have been going on here; George isn't the real problem, he is a symptom of a problem higher up the tree and you've been exploited quite cynically by the others for their own ends no matter how genuine your own concerns were. That makes it impossible that your concerns would ever have been objectively considered. If it all blew up do you think these guys would be there rooting for you? No way, they'd look after number one.

Quote:

"what if I was just handed the reins in structural; would that have kept me on…?
is too late and, coupled with this other comment:

Quote:

One of them suggested that, during my exit interview, I should, “…remain my candid ol’ self, when talking to H.R.”
suggests that this is a palce revolt and you were a stalking horse, an expendable asset in their tool box.

They tried to use you for their own ends, they did'nt really care about you except as a means to leverage George out and you were a win/win solution for them whether you stayed or you left.

Leaving a job it is vital to go cleanly and without burning bridges, without rancour and without, however tempting, "letting them exactly why" it does no good, that's why you're going.

Who knows what the future will bring?

You now have zero concern with this company and anyone who works there. Let them get on with their problems. It doesn't matter if George gets to be MD or goes out on his ear. Not now.

If that HR meeting is still pending, resist playing their game, if anything, downplay the George problem entirely and put it all down to a need for pastures new. Don't leave ammunition around for anyone to use, not in writing or emails and keep it ultra-professional.

Good luck at your new job.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: What to do about George...

PS purely out of curiosity, why is George so difficult a target for the management assasins?
Did he marry the Boss's daughter?
If not, there'll be blood soon and maybe not all George's.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: What to do about George...

walterbrennan,

Good luck at your next career stop.

It takes a lot of will power to stay professional in the exit interview. You need to answer the questions honestly, while staying professional and neutral (especially with the non-verbal part of the conversation). Good on ya!



RE: What to do about George...

3
There is no upside to answering exit interview questions _at_all_.  

If you can't avoid the interview entirely, limit your answers to extremely brief statements of irrefutable fact.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: What to do about George...

Actually, more likely than not, George was not the problem - but a symptom of a deep problem.  I had a George once (but his name was Bill).

Congrats on leaving - that's what I did, and I never looked back (and I gave the most nebulous glossy answers to the HR during the exit interview).

Zoom

RE: What to do about George...

I'm question the benefit of keeping constructive criticism to yourself during your exit interview with HR.  It is the job of HR to address certain issues within a company (typically more behavior based and less technical) and with no feedback to use there is no ammunition for them to justify a necessary change.

I may be a bit opinionated though because I handed a stack of very factual emails to a persons department manager on my way out the door.  The emails detailed how she was not only incompetent but intentionally whited out my signature on the application for my loan to purchase my first home.  Let it surfice to say that after wrote the email & the situation became public the company was very accomodating to my situation and very helpful to make sure that everything worked out well for me.  

Will those emails make any bit of difference?  I know that it makes me feel better that if she tries to pull a stunt like this again she will not get the benefit of the doubt.

Is my behavior unprofessional?  In my opinion no.  The voice of the customer is important to ensure customer satisfaction.  I was very dissatisfied with the service I recieved and made it know.  Without this feedback everyone just assumes that everything is OK and no adjustment is necessary.

But back to the thread...

After reading this thread George's decisions may have been financially based.  Replace high paid (though very skilled) employees with lower paid (and less skilled) employees.  I can also see how drafter B would be fanatically loyal to George since George did save his job (insecure leaders like very loyal people).

The most important part however is that the poster found an excellent position where he can bring his competence to the forefront.  I wish you the best of luck in your new position and am sure you will be a great guy to work for.

-John

RE: What to do about George...

HR weasels just love factual emails, that give them lots of phrases to quote out of context in order to defame you.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

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