Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
(OP)
Other than the obligatory "people had a bad experience with GM", is there a technical reason we do not have a single manufacturer that builds a typical 1/2 ton pickup with a decent diesel? If they can get them to pass automotive emissions ( Volkswagen, Mercedes, and now Jeep ), why not a decent 1/2 ton PU? I know GM's association with Isuzu would let them use the beautiful little diesel they make, and Dodge's contracts with Cummins would make the ISB 3.9/3.3 a natural. It would appear to me as if both of these tough as nails diesels would offer at least 35 MPG, with more than acceptable performance. Couple that with 300,000 mile plus durability and I would think fleets, contractors, etc. would buy them in great numbers.
Comments?
Comments?





RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
If a decent diesel half ton, Dodge, Ford, Toyota...whatever (I have reached the point where I realize "buy American" is meaningless) ever comes on the market, I'll buy it. I have nearly 200k on my Dodge Cummins with "ZERO" problems but, I am getting on in age and that duelly is beating me to death.
My neighbor has a new VW Passat wagon, diesel...has good power and gets 45mpg driving back and forth between the Inland Empire and Irvine over the 29 miles of the twisting canyon road of the Ortega Hwy.
I don't need a wagon...that size pickup would be okay, though.
All it will take is a concerted effort (read that "lots of telly") by the mfgrs. You know Americans only buy what they see on TV...what they are 'told' is "good for them"!
Buy the endorsement of sports 'personality',put Nike swoosh on a diesel 1/2 ton Toyota...winner!!!
Not likely to happen unless we see regular fuel prices a LOT greater than five bucks a gallon...
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I only became enamored with this concept after purchasing a converted 3/4 ton 4WD full size GMC with an ancient 4BT Cummins. Sans OD, and with 4.11 gears, this thing gets 26 MPG with enough torque to start in 4th gear if necessary. I am pretty doggone certain that with a decent OD, and the lower stance and weight of a 1/2 ton, this could be quite a star in reducing fuel usage.
Rod, Im with you. Perhaps you could pick yourself up a Cummins 3/4 ton and lighten up the spring package. Frito Lay vans with 4BTs are laying around, and it would be a direct drop in for the 6BT. If Dodge wont build it, then we might have to.
Swall, I forgot about the Navistar V-6, thanks for reminding me. I still cannot for the life of me figure out why they wont do an inline as opposed to a V.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
For our purposes, I believe the break point between light and medium duty is at 8600 GVW.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
tell that to the Thai's and the Phillipines etc etc.
Where are all your Rangers made?
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Safetydan: you are completely and utterly wrong about there not being a market for light trucks outside the US, the entire pickup buying world buys light pickup trucks and no other country in the world outside the US and possibly canada has a real market for heavy pickups, just look at every video of 3rd world country traffic, light trucks abound. As was said somewhere, toyota could be a virtual sponsor for jihad, every time you see terrorists or guerillas riding somewhere in a third world country, including iraq right now, they're doing it in a toyota half-ton.
I'm from chile originally, and if you ever go there you'll probably notice that the single most common vehicle on the road is the Chevy luv half ton truck, the government doesn't charge you the 18% sales tax if you buy a pickup for work reasons, and therefore anyone with a legitimate business will buy one, couple to that the fact that diesel is a full dollar less per gallon and you just can't lose
I don't know why but the US has a hate relationship with vehicles with diesel engines, blame the smell of old diesel fuel, the loud engine, lack of acceleration and not least of all the ridiculous fact that diesel is more expensive than gas by around 30 cents a gallon in some places. All the old problems no longer exist, just the higher fuel price.
In the US the half ton pickup is apparently seen as a toy and useless for real work, with virtually the entire fleet of working trucks consisting of the 3/4 or 1 ton full sized pickups. In the US the towing of trailers with pickups is much much more common than in the rest of the world, and for that you would preffer a full sized truck, of course you always can get the optional V10 gasoline engine instead of a diesel.
Europe goes with the diesel powered Combi-vans for fleet work purposes (I dare you to find more than 10 pickups driving around a large german city), the rest of the world with asian or european made true utility trucks.
For the rest of the population in the US, who could use a pickup for non-work reasons, the half tonner is seen as a toy again and the open bed as a liability, so they go instead for an SUV for the occasional hauling of gear. The rest of those who actually WANT a pickup will go with a short bed F150 with a V8 engine or a ram with the 5.7 Hemi.
So where does that leave us? customers in the US want either a big powerful work truck, or a big powerful leisure truck, both of which get horrible gas mileage.
The ranger is one real american light truck, competing with the Toyota, Nissan and Mazda offerings, but having owned one, I wouldn't see why anyone would want a ranger in the first place, they're an awful drive. The Chevy S10 and it's relatives are better trucks, but you don't see many of either in a work role.
with biodiesel becoming more common (I know a guy that runs a diesel truck for 3 bucks a month on it) and cars like the toyota aygo that can get EIGHTY miles a gallon on diesel, I think that cost-concious customers in the US will eventually turn towards diesel powered cars.
So, I'd say the reason no US manufacturer makes a diesel version is because the ppl here won't buy them, either on principle for not being like monster trucks or the percieved higher price of the fuel. In much of the rest of the world it makes sense because diesel is a whole lot cheaper than gas (argentina has a large internal vehicle production capacity and a vast majority of it's cars and trucks are diesel powered). If the government were to reduce taxes on diesel so that it was cheaper than gas, then I predict the pitch would change sharply, and the costs of transportation would also be reduced.
I remember hearing at some point that diesel is actually cheaper to produce than gasoline because it's less refined, is this true? and if it is then doesn't it make a whole lot more sense to produce more diesel than gasoline?
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Blacksmith
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
we can make the adapters to fit it in any truck, I have not found a source to buy them in small quantities.
and yes I agree, the big 4 should offer a 1/2 ton pickup and suv with a small diesel. for those of us who drive them forever!
SBI
Central Ne.,USA
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Going back to the original question, there still is not a market for a "half-ton" or smaller truck with a diesel in the US. Sure it does make sense to everyone on these boards as to the logic and reasoning behind why they would be a good fit, but not everyone thinks with logic and reason. Most people are very illogical and irrational, and will follow a defined path laid out by people in a position of influence. Unfortunately, most of the people who read these messages are not in those positions of influence (don't attack me saying you are, unless you work for an ad agency, marketing firm, or are the CEO of a major automaker, you aren't).
Businesses are always going to do what is best for their buisness, and will offer their products to people who want to buy them. Will the market shift and begin demanding diesel engined "half-ton" trucks? Quite possibly. Diesel VW's and others are flying off the lots right now, even though diesel is more expensive at this moment. 50 mpg in the city with a family sedan is very appealing many feeling the pinch of high fuel charges. Hopefully people will realize the same can be done in the truck market.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I think that the root of the matter is that the appeal of mid-sized trucks has become a freudian affair instead of a practical one over the years, people buy them for the same reason they buy SUVs, because they're large, with a big engine, and someday they might actually want to use it for moving something, just as the SUV buyer buys it "just in case" he has to go offroad someday. And don't think that it's limited to the US only, they're bought outside the US mostly for the same exact reason.
But relating what I just said to the original question, you can't really put a 4 cyl diesel in a mid-sized truck and expect it to perform in a way that will make anyone want to buy one, especially in the US, only a light truck (like the tacoma) will do.
Dodge already puts the cummins V6 in it's full sized ram, I don't see why they couldn't put it in the scaled down version since it's basically the same, market pressure I guess. but it's not a light truck and it's not a 4 cylinder.
I do think though, that there IS a market for light trucks (not mid-sized, small-sized) in a fleet application, for example the parts delivery trucks that NAPA uses in my town, they usually have chevy S10s and rangers, those could use diesels getting 35 mpg instead of the 20-25 they get on gas now (if you're really lucky). The trucks exist so what is needed most is to create that market thru government sponsored plans and tax breaks, it'd be nice to see tax breaks that are really good for small businesses instead of just the big corporations.
I can see the big 3 lobbying heavily against any such action, just because they don't have a product that could compete with such a good deal.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
We visited dozens of dealers to find something just the right size, that actually had clearance to swing a person's foot between the seatbase and the B-pillar. Bigger SUVs are more cramped in that area, even LWB Suburbans. The salespeople were of course baffled when we sat in the backseat first.
If memory serves, the seating area has roughly the proportions of a 55 Chevy wagon. Except for the extra ground clearance, which necessitates an exterior step.
The ground clearance is in some senses a safety feature, given the rabid determination of modern town fathers to line every road with substantial curbstones. Curbstones inhibit natural drainage, increasing the likelihood of hydroplaning, and inhibit egress from the right of way for accident avoidance and for passage of emergency vehicles.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
My only interest in the whole thing was that there was quite an availability of 6.9L engines that had no more mileage on them than what it took to drive them from the dealership to the converter's location.
To all: Hang on to your hats. If Europe is any example diesel is sneaking up on us. I read somewhere the other day that 55% of the new vehicles sold in Europe last year were diesel.
rmw
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
2.5 turbodiesel. 175BHP. 400Nm.
30mpg.
Roll on March 1st.
"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Many different methods of masking them have been devised, some very expensive and some very novel.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
A place I once work at used the 4BT and they would fatigue bolts to failure, one actuall split the sides open on a hydraulic oil tank. Not a good thing when the machine is on an eviromental clean-up site.
Yes the force can be countered but the cost and added manitance of things like counter rotating shafts or spring arm dampeners is money I'd rather spend on something else to improve the performance of say a 6 cylinder or even a 3 cylinder.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
They say it wont sell, but if it is not available, how do I buy one? I wonder how many Cummins Dodges were sold before 1989?
If the secondary imbalance is so bad, how do 4BT's run several hundred thousand miles before being rebuilt? Certainly my ancient 4BT is never going to be mistaken for a V-16, but for a truck, it is certainly acceptable.
Oh, and yea, I wouldnt be against a small 3 Cylinder diesel, it would just mean better mileage.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Or am I dreaming?
rmw
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
You just have to move away from the US to have access to this sort of thing :)
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Perhaps I am just way ahead of the curve here in the US, poohy96, hows the weather in NZ, and do they have idiotic regulations regarding ME's?
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
tractors use 3-cylinder diesels, I work with one occasionaly, it's naturaly aspirated and sucks for acceleration but with the right gearbox it might work in a car (it's huge tho)
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Thanks,
Mike
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Will this be EPA certified for light truck use? If so, do you need beta testers? LOL, I can be persuaded to offer my K2500 entended cab 4X4 with a NV4500 for trials. If it will help, I also have a full shop at my disposal.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I'd interested to know YOUR reasons for working with a 3 cyclinder instead of a 4 cyclinder.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I have a Nissan Vanette with a 2 litre diesel that does all my dirty work,my daily drive is a well equiped Pajero LWB with a 2.5 turbo intercooled 4 cyl diesel with balance shafts,I also have a Nissan Lauel - this uses Skyline running gear with a 2.8 6cyl diesel developed from the Skyline RB motor,a classy drive for a diesel.
We see the odd US pick up,like F250s and Rams etc,but they are not very practical,having a very long wheelbase and not much load space for their size,you mainly see them on the open road pulling a huge trailer...they are good for that,but not in cities.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I am talking about GM's Colorado/S-10 size trucks with a small turbo 4-cylinder. Even the 1/2-ton trucks like the 1500 Silverado would be great.
Also, all the international diesel trucks/utilities are great applications if we (I am in the U.S.) could only have access to them.
I need a bullet-proof truck that can work on weekends and carry 4-passengers to lunch during the week.
My apologies to the international members for the model names, as I don't know if/what they are sold as internationally.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
After searching for the past year and seeing the price of gas climb 10% in Ontario, Canada. I found another diesel to replace my '85 Volvo 740 Turbo-Diesel Wagon. It's a 1984 Ford Ranger with a [2.2L Perkins Diesel]. Should make a great bio-diesel conversion.
I have found a used propane cylinder to mount in the bed and convert to two fuel systems for the climate changes that mother nature has for my driving.
Regards,
BioAl
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I think a good share of the lure of diesel trucks is the lack of desire to own and operate the cars ???? of today.
No market for diesel trucks??? more than just a few families have no cars..3 trucks, all diesels. Try to find a VW TDI. Incredible mileage and durability.
Oh yes the Cummins 5.9 is an I-block six not a v-8. Make that clear. There are good reasons for in-line six over the v-8.
The funny thing is that now the real need for a truck is limited and I still like the truck over the cars.
Ultimately the energy issue will force alternate fuels including bio-diesel. With the advent of bio-diesel the smell will turn to french fries and the smoke will be a thing of the past. Diesels will begin to prevale. Outside of the USA diesel make up a very significant percentage of the vehicles as noted by Aussie.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
my question for now is the tranny... what to use?? i've been looking through alot of sights and am finding nothing about what to use. seems like folks that are converting are using a gm tranny a gm/chevy rig. any ford trannys that are getting used are adapted to the tranny that goes with the f250/350. so any help or insight would be helpful. not alot about the ranger tranny....
thanks in advance
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Naturally aspirated with indirect-injection, it wouldn't pull the hat off your head, but got great fuel economy.
And cruise-control was simple: you just put a brick on the fuel pedal, and if you encountered any traffic, you could slow it WAY down by just turning on the air-conditioning...
Sales were essentially zero, so when the initial contract for engines expired, that option disappeared.
That's probably what was originally in the Ranger that d22 reports now has a Perkins.
At the same time, much development work was done on putting a turbocharged variant of this engine in Ford's Aerostar compact van, but this program too was cancelled when we realized just how effectively GM's terrible diesels had poisoned the market in North America.
And speaking of Perkins: we put a Perkins 4-cylinder in a full-size pickup at Ford back in the mid-'70s, but my boss outran it in a 100-yard footrace, so the program was literally laughed out of existence.
Since nobody else seems to have answered your question, Greg, as to where our Rangers are made, I will:
right here in the U.S., buddy.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
So it can't be reasonably argued that these so-called duties have been any kind of barrier to competing in this market.
Unlike the situation with cars, where almost anyone (except of course the French) made better cars than we did in the '70s and early '80s, the majority of truck imports varied from marginally to wildly unsuitable for the American *truck* market. Where they shown was in the market for cheap cars, but the import trucks were ALWAYS substantially out-sold by the American-made trucks.
To get back to the original topic: none of the Japanese makers even tried to bring us a Diesel-powered truck.
Ford brought them to market and served only to prove that the consumer didn't want them.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
The truck bed deal is for real...Worked on the new automated paint line at the Toyota facility in Paramount in the 80's...beds came in unpainted and left ready to mount without any human hands touching them! Pretty slick.
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Stepping into the next century now, take the VW TDI diesel and stick it in the Colorado. Still think it would not sell?
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
All of the regulars in the forum have heard me say for several years that $5 gas will be the turning point---Well, lads...I'm not so sure any longer. I just bought 85 gallons last weekend for the motorhome at $3.299 per gallon and twenty gallons of Sunoco 110 at $4.89 per (wow, race fuel is looking pretty cheap)...watched every station along the way PACKED with SUV's, pickups, sports cars, etc.---I just marveled at the "normalcy" of the entire weekend (Moss Mtrs. British Extravaganza at Buttonwillow Raceway Park with ~300 entries). I am not at all sure that five bucks will do it. At least not in California. I have been retired for many years and I am much more concerned with the overall increase in cost of "goods" as it relates to transportation cost---read that 'fuel surcharge'---now becoming common around here. I guess it won't be $5 but closer to $10 that will do it. Amazing--- I could not have conceived of five dollar fuel ten years ago and, now I am actually budgeting for it (might as well be prepared, hey?).
Bottom line? Would I buy a mid sized pickup with a small diesel engine? You bet! We are just, perhaps, a little ahead of the curve...we won't be alone...
Well, sorry for the vent...Feel better now. Gotta go fill up Nash Metropolitan 'cause it still gets 40 mpg...Hey, gotta economize where ever I can!!! (as I hear cackling laughter from over my shoulder as I post this...as said by another Rodney, "I just don't get no respect"!
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
http://www.stallioncustoms.com
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Ten bucks a gallon? Yeah, sounds about right. We will all make the guy that drives the Hummer or Rolls rich enough that, at least, HE can afford it.
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I've been casually polling the UPS/FEDEX etc drivers who are all running the Dodge/Freightliner Sprinter vans. They all say they are getting over 20mpg, and can run 75 on the freeway. Both are extremely good attributes for a 9-foot-tall box.
The engine in there is a 2.3 liter mercedes turbo diesel.
Anyone done any work with that engine? Seems like it would be ideal in a 1/2 or 3/4-ton pickup. Might even be a natural in the mid-size Dodge Dakota.
If I might prophesy: Dodge will offer this in 2008.
Most people I know are addicted to their 250hp + pickups, and whine endlessly if they have to shift down more than twice on a trip through Colorado pulling a 10,000 pound trailer. I'm in the minority--I'd be happy with a 25mpg truck even if the dumb thing wouldn't go over about 75mph. I've got motorcycles to satisfy my horsepower addiction.
BTW, out here in cattle country, the dividing line between "pickup" and "toy pickup" is where you can install a flatbed and a hay-bale spike that will handle a 1700 lb round bale.
Jess
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
You keep an ear to the ground for this stuff, Pat. What do you hear?
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I was kind of toying with the idea of hunting down an engine and swapping it into a fairly recent dodge pickup. Unfortunately, it's pretty far down the project list, particularly if I can't figure out a way to make money with it. I'm thinking engine swap kits are never big sellers--anyone that's up for doing engine swaps can usually just make their own parts.
Sure would be fun, though.
Jess
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
As for any other Mfgs, I keep preaching to my GM buddy, and sound advice keeps getting ignored.
Jess, look at the Cummins 4BT 3.9, it will drop in directly with 5.9 diesel parts, short of the motor mounts, which I believe are in a different place, so the frame mounts would have to be moved aft. The 4BT is a whale of an engine, and they stuffed it about anywhere and everywhere. They ( Cummins ) makes Dodge, GM, and small Ford adapters for both manual and automatic applications.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
The continuous rating on the BTA3.9 is 125 hp, I think. Any idea how that would drive in a 1/2 ton pickup?
Jess
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I doubt you want to consider changing a 4B to turbo, as I believe everything is turbo specific from the crank up. They are still available in the boneyard for a reasonable price, delivery companies changed out tons of their trucks from gas to diesel, and many are coming on the market now. If you are serious, look at dovebid.com and look for the transportation sale, I believe they are up to the 11th one for Frito-Lay. They usually have hundreds of 4BT delivery vans, some are junk and go for 200 bucks, but even the nice ones usually dont bring 2 grand. There is usually 7-8 hundred bucks worth of scrap aluminum, so your cost is very minimal.
Finally, though they may be rated at 125 Hp in DOT configuration, check out the Marine config, 250 Hp is nothing for these babies to make in continuous use....
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
When you say it hauls your 4x4 without fuss, do you mean it goes 75mph or 55 mph?
As I remember it, the 125 hp was the setup we looked at for a loader design--usually pretty close to the continuous rating. By comparison, I think the 6BTA was 175, and I've heard that they are reliable in pickups at over 275hp.
The box van donor would be way better than what I have been looking at since it would be set up for a proper GM transmission instead of a pump drive. What do you think is in most of those vans? Surely not the 700R4?
Thanks
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
As for transmissions, the Autos were specially modified TH400's which were still problematic with the low end torque these things produce, and the SM465 4 speed, which the Queen Mary's engines couldn't grenade.
I don't want this thread red-flagged, so we probably need to take this one off list. If you want to get more specific about this deal, contact me at pat.daly@ {diespam}anchorglass.com
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Apparently, some are beginning to see the light (HA).
http:
Maybe one day soon we will be offered a light duty pickup in the US with a turbo diesel option.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Not a lot of info here, just the power/torque figures for the engine used in the Transit van sold across Europe.
'Why not a 4 cyl diesel in a light truck?'
http://w
And it can turn in very good economy. Over 40 mpg if you don't let yourself enjoy the torque figures too often.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
It has already been announced.
Ford had plans but don't know where they are with it.
It's going to happen.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Perhaps there is a new Dodge in my future after all!
http://www
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
My cousin owns a wiring harness company that does much work for Cummins, but his parts would be used much later, so he will not know anything yet.
Tell your friend you know where there is a Beta tester who could give the new engine quite a workout, heck, I'd do it for free.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Thanks Swall, hard to believe Cummins fell for the hype after all the years of making the dominant truck engine.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Publication: Washington Post, October 09, 2006
Abstract: Germany's carmakers are looking to join forces to push clean diesels in the U.S. market with the Bluetec technology developed by Mercedes-Benz and diesel injection system specialist Bosch.
Article:
Germany's carmakers are looking to join forces to push clean diesels in the U.S. market with the Bluetec technology developed by Mercedes-Benz and diesel injection system specialist Bosch.
Starting in 2008, Volkswagen (VOWG.DE), its premium unit Audi, BMW (BMWG.DE) and Mercedes aim to launch and market Bluetec in the world's largest car market, where diesel has a market share of just 5 percent versus 50 percent in western Europe.
Spokespersons for Volkswagen and Mercedes parent DaimlerChrysler confirmed a report in German industry newspaper Automobilwoche to be published on Monday.
Aside from a quicker market penetration, the alliance is hoping to gain cost savings in purchasing the specific modules that mainly stem from Bosch, the world's largest automotive parts supplier.
Bluetec diesels fulfil the stringent U.S. emission norm Bin 5 that goes into effect in 2009.
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Publication: The Detroit News, October 10, 2006
With cleaner diesel fuel now available in the United States, DaimlerChrysler AG's luxury carmaker Mercedes-Benz is preparing to roll out the first of four models in North America featuring its newest diesel technology.
Full Text (with padding edited out by me):
With cleaner diesel fuel now available in the United States, Mercedes-Benz is preparing to roll out the first of four models in North America featuring its newest diesel technology.
The E320 Bluetec sedan, which goes on sale next week in most states and in Canada, is equipped with a system that drastically lowers emissions of soot and other pollutants associated with diesel.
By the end of October, similar diesel versions of the ML sport utility vehicle and R-Class touring wagon will hit U.S. showrooms.
"The three are in the SUV market, where it makes more sense to have diesel in America," said Mercedes spokesman Geoff Day.
"To coincide with the conversion of up to 76,000 U.S. filling stations to clean diesel fuel, Mercedes-Benz is commencing sales of the E320 Bluetec in the United States and Canada in one week's time," the Stuttgart-based automaker said Monday in a statement.
The car will be available in 45 states, but not in California and other states that have adopted California's strict norms.
The automaker is refining the Bluetec system, which it developed with its supplier Robert Bosch GmbH, with the objective of selling diesel-powered vehicles in all 50 states starting in 2008.
The German publication Automobilwoche reported that BMW and Volkswagen are in talks with DaimlerChrysler about sharing Bluetec technology in an effort to increase the acceptance of diesel in North America.
DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group also will use the technology and has shown it in a diesel Grand Cherokee SUV.
Diesel engines are common in medium-duty and larger trucks, but U.S. sales of diesel-powered cars trail sales of hybrids.
Compared with equivalent gas engines, diesel motors are a third more fuel efficient and emit less carbon dioxide. The E320 Bluetec can ride more than 700 miles on a tank of gas -- 200 miles more than an E-Class running on gas.
But diesel suffers from an image problem with many American consumers who recall the noisy and smelly diesels of the past.
Mercedes' Bluetec technology uses a particulate filter as well as a variant of the catalytic converter to cut those emissions. The second-generation Bluetec system will use a urea-injection system to further reduce emissions.
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
It still puzzles me why reporters keep bringing up the perception problem of diesels.
Perhaps that stems from my rural background.
Bluetec looks promising, and lets not wrote Honda out of the equation, if they get theirs to work, it could render Bluetec old technology overnight.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I can't help thinking that, once someone that (say) commutes 60 miles a day in a 20 mpg vehicle samples the same journey in a 40mpg diesel with the same creature comforts, the money-in-the-pocket sensibilities would start to kick in and an attitude could change.
I don't understand how the old "Buick tried it and..." philosophy can still be trotted out to denigrate the latest common-rail engines. It's like comparing the latest gasoline engines with a Ford Pinto and expecting them not to have advanced since then.
Ford sell a 2.2 four cyl in the Mondeo and Jaguar X-type here in Europe that is undergoing development to meet the US "Bin 5", I believe. Performance:
155 PS (153 hp/114 kW) and 262 ft·lbf (355 N·m)
...and there's the V6 diesel that is supplied to Jaguar, Peugeot and Land Rover. Performance:
204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 ft·lbf (440 N·m)
....and the V8 used by Jag and LR. Performance:
270 PS (266 hp/199 kW) and 640 N·m (472 ft·lbf).
Some dedicated gas people might sneer at the HP figures, but 472 lb.ft. of torque at about 2700 rpm can bring a smile on.
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
providing of course that you buy the new Diesel fuel...
which around here is selling at a very stiff premium to gasoline.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
However, the capability of meeting 49 States is around the corner with the less exotic engines (i.e. other than Merc) and VW, Ford, PSA, Opel, Audi and Vovlo will be introducing vehicles in 2007/2008 (I'll try and check that).
On the fuel front - we had the introduction of low sulphur fuels a few years ago now and I can't comment on what the cost of ULS diesel is with respect to gasoline as we get taxed so highly on all fuels.
Diesel costs about 5% more at the pump than 95 octane but my vehicles get 20 to 50% better mileage than their gasoline engined versions.
That extends the range of my Toyota bus from about 270 miles to about 400 miles for 5% more money. And that's an 'old' engine, not a common-rail type. A similar vehicle from Ford of Europe (7-seat MPV) with CR will do well over 40mpg at 'interstate' speeds.
I was working on a light truck programme several years ago which got transferred to the USA, and then back to us (!) and, while development work carried on in the US, there was a lot of trouble with the relatively poor quality of diesel in the USA compared to Europe and, indeed, much of the rest of the word.
The US standards of fuel available from filling stations were attuned to the wants of the big rigs (understandably) and things like cetane numbers, viscosities, cold filter plugging temps, etc., were all inferior relative to almost everywhere else.
I'm sure that, given the right direction from government (are they allowed to do that?) the huge petrochem industry in the USA could meet the challenge and give you ULS diesel at gas prices or better.
I vaguely recall something about parafins being several times more abundant in the refining process than the spirits blended to make gasoline, so the price should ultimately reflect the abundance.
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
The big three dont seem to listen to buyers but rather beleive in the power of marketing to manipulate buyers into buying their planned obsolescenced junk.
So, I have to build what I really need .
I just bought a VW TDI diesel engine to transplant in my 1988 Mazda RX7.
I might have to buy a second engine to transplant into a Ford Ranger of other small japaneese pick up.
So, I am looking for an adaptor to drop the VW TDI into the rear wheel drive RX 7.
Can anybody help me find an adaptor supplier ?
SPEED+++++
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Riktoo,
www.acmeadapters.com makes adapters for the vw 1.6 and 1.9 for suzuki samurai's contact them for use with thr mazda trans or you might use suzuki trans in your rx7.
Where are you located ? I would be interested in kibitzing and watching for my own intended subie diesel.
For huge amounts of info everyone should check out
SamuraiDiesel@yahoogroups
Cheers,ed
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I live in Hawkesbury Ontario Canada K6A 2R2 and if you are close it would be a pleasure to have a visit when I start this project in the spring.
This may seem an odd project to some people but the rotary guzzler only has 139 ft. pounds of torque while the VW TDI has 180 ft/lbs. and propels the VW car which is about 200 pounds heavier than the RX-7.
There have been efforts to dieselize the rotary engine but so far if I am correct,it has not been commercialized.
That`s another story though .
SPEED+++++
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
2.3 liter turbo diesel performance
Ranger’s new 2.3 liter turbo diesel engine, available in the Regular Cab model with standard trim, delivers the high fuel economy the diesel is noted for, plus turbocharged power when you need it. This husky diesel has state-of the-art features such as electronically controlled glow plugs which eliminate the “wait-to start” light and time delay before start-up. It also has an in-line fuel heater, engine block heater. Extra sound insulation and a tachometer are included.
That was 21 years ago! That Ranger was a blast to drive; it idled about 800 and cruised 55mph at about 1800 and if you didn’t watch if you were doing 80mph with hardly a hum. The turbo kicked in, I’d say about 1400 although you couldn’t hear anything, it just seemed to have a power jump about there. The rated mpg was about 27-33 and I got a very consistent 35-42 mpg from the day I drove out of the dealer’s garage to the day it met its demise.
I am half tempted to try a conversion on an up-to-date Ranger, if I can locate one with a bad engine. I understand that same Mitsubishi 2.3L turbo diesel is still used on generator sets and other industrial applications. I’d rather wish Ford would wake up and pull the files on the 1986 Ranger and just give it to us again.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
They wont have a 4 cylinder, and they wont get 30 plus MPG.
At this point it appears Dodge will have a 5.8L V-8 and offer 22-24 MPG, not sure of the specs on the Ford.
If we want it, we will still have to homebrew it boys.
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Rod
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Not a 4-cyl I know, but a press release about a new GM diesel engine for Europe:
http:/
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I just bought a 1/2 ton Chev, that I plan to put a small camper on. I didn't want the heavier truck, poor MPG and poor ride empty.
Being a "big" guy, I wanted the full size truck, not the smaller versions, and I also want(dream) MPG close to 20 on the road unloaded. It seems that maybe the 07's might do this now, but that's way to much money.
I used to work for Cummins in engine development, and like diesels, but I probably wouldn't buy one in a light truck. If I upgrade to a heavier rig maybe, but the extra $$ for the diesel probably would make me stick with gas.
As for diesel in 1/2 tons, the cost of the engine would have to come way down before they would sell, and the noise/vibraton/power would have to match the gas engines.
Dan
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
Have you ever heard the expression, "only in America".
Regards
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RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
My own employer, Frod Munter Co. Europe, has apparently been asked by FMC USA to look into providing some of the vehicles made in Europe and marketed in the rest of the world (i.e. not the USA) into the US market. This will include diesel options. As mentioned elsewhere, 49-state emissions compatibility is effectively available.
The Ford PUMA diesel engine will probably be the one that enters the US market in the Transit van. The current range is up to 3½ tonne GVW / 2 tonne payload.
Possibly the Peugeot DW10/DW12 engines in the saloon.cars.
The current Mondeo is advertised at up to 43mpg(US) with a six-speed box.
PUMA/Transit http://w
Mondeo
Bill
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck
I would love to drive it back to Canada but regulations would stop me at the border. The 4 door is banned by Canadian seat belt regulations and the diesel engine probably won't be acceptable on the cruddy North American fuel.
Consider the change in infrastructure (In dollars) required to upgrade both the quality and distribution systems to supply diesel to the light vehicle market. (Light as in less than a semi-trailer). The next issue would be a drastic shift in the proportions of gasoline and diesel to be extracted from the crude oil. Am I being a conspiracy theorist if I suspect that the oil companies like things the way they are and are quietly resisting any expensive changes?
Are you a conspiracy theorist if there really is a conspiracy?
respectfully
RE: Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck