Recruiting from Previous Employer
Recruiting from Previous Employer
(OP)
When I resigned from my previous position the big boss asked me not to recruit any of their employees. This request came after several days of negotiations to try to get me to stay and I was pretty much tired of arguing so I mumbled "Yeah, sure."
Now I'm kicking myself for not getting into it with him. Would he apprecitate it if he had an employee that wouldn't turn him on to a potential good engineer or designer because of loyalty to a previous company? I think not.
So what are people's opinions? Was it right for him to ask that of me? Is it right to raid previous employers?
Let me start with my two cents. The more I think about it, the more I think it's absolute BS that he even asked. Mainly for the reason I already gave.
As for the second question, it depends. If you're just being malicious and trying to wreck a company by stealing people, then, of course, I would say that's wrong. But if you have a legitimate need for someone, why risk the whole resume review, interview gambit and not just ask someone that you already know if they're interested. Last time I checked that was called free market econonomy.
Now I'm kicking myself for not getting into it with him. Would he apprecitate it if he had an employee that wouldn't turn him on to a potential good engineer or designer because of loyalty to a previous company? I think not.
So what are people's opinions? Was it right for him to ask that of me? Is it right to raid previous employers?
Let me start with my two cents. The more I think about it, the more I think it's absolute BS that he even asked. Mainly for the reason I already gave.
As for the second question, it depends. If you're just being malicious and trying to wreck a company by stealing people, then, of course, I would say that's wrong. But if you have a legitimate need for someone, why risk the whole resume review, interview gambit and not just ask someone that you already know if they're interested. Last time I checked that was called free market econonomy.





RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
In general, I think that if the potential recruit initiates the conversation (someone from your old company contacting you about a switch) then it's free game. If it's you actively soliciting people, then it's not ok particularly since you said you wouldn't do that.
Now in reality, it's much more gray that what I portray. Maybe you're just going to lunch with business associates from your old company to keep the network up. Maybe the conversation over happy hours beers turns to work (since all engineers do that) and just maybe someone expresses interest in what your new job entails...
One other option might be to subcontract work to your old firm (as much as that probably chaps your hide) which would allow you to expose the potential recruit to your new company. Makes it much tougher for the old boss since now he's turning down revenue to try and keep you away from his employees.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
"Do you want to come work for me?" = recruiting.
"I'm looking for a few people." = a statement, not recruiting.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I am NOT a lawyer.
Are you asking if this is legal or ethical issue when you ask "Was it right for him to ask that of me?" It is perfectly legal for him to ask you to not poach. If you are asking whether this is ethical of him to ask, well I leave that to your ethics and morals, since I am sure, we each have a slightly different ethic and moral compass.
Are you asking whether there will be a legal issue if you do "poach" becuase you had said "Yeah, sure." If you did not sign this into your exit negotiation papers, then IMHO (I am NOT a lawyer), it is legal. If you did sign, then it is probably illegal wrt your negotiated settlement and somebody will probably contact a lawyer. If you are asking whether it is ethical for you to poach after you said you wouldn't, I will also leave it to your ethics and morals, since I am sure, we each have a slightly different ethic and moral compass.
My suggestion is to follow your own internal compass, since it is you who have to live with your decision.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Dozer, it is called a free market. That means anyone is free to work for, or to offer a job to, anyone else. It is the employer's burden to make it unattractive to the employee to leave.
I agree with Ashereng's assessment though. Do what you think is right, unless you signed that "Yeah, sure" bit. Then don't, because you agreed not to.
Remember: The Chinese ideogram for “crisis” is comprised of the characters for “danger” and “opportunity.”
-Steve
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
There are lots of ways a company has to retain employees. One way that does not work is to try to coerce former employees to not communicate opportunities to existing employees.
Having said all that, if I had shrugged my shoulders and hesitantly agreed to not talk to employees of my former company about opportunities that I knew were out there, I'd comply with that verbal agreement. That's just part of having integrity.
But, I'd learn from the situation and never repeat it.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Your comment, I think, didn't commit you for a life of non-recruiting. A waiting period of, say, 6 months to a year, would be appropriate. No legal issue here...simply an ethical response to your "Ya, sure" comment.
The request was based on a concept where you would go to the new job, and then communicate back to your previous employees and draw them away due to the immediacy of your situation. After a year or so you are no different than any other employee of your new firm.
And I would say that there's nothing wrong with an employer asking you not to recruit. Its just a request. Nothing more, nothing less. You can (could) still say no. How would they enforce such a request? Simply relying on your word.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Here's the part of the story that I didn't tell you that really gets my goat. About a year ago they hired a middle manager type. Since then, he has hired three people from the his former company. Now, I don't know for a fact that this guy actively recruited, but if he did, the duplicity would just irk the snot out of me.
Bottom line is I said I wouldn't so I won't. But if any good folks come asking, I'm not going to turn them away.
Oh, and I didn't sign anything. I had been confrontational for a couple of days of negotiation and was ready to move on. When I gave them my final "no", he threw that request out. I was caught off guard that he would even ask, plus I didn't want to rub salt in his wounds so I just caved. As Zoomzoo suggest, I should at least learn a lesson from this. You too can, boys and girls.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I can recall a few times where that rule was bent and the bad feeling it created.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
1. Does your former employer never poach ?
2. Does he not poach from your present employer ?
Why would somebody leave one job and take up another ? Obviously because, he/she gets something better - not necessarily only monetary. At least in his/her perception, he/she is getting something better. How can anybody stop that ? unless there's a written agreement at the time of joining.
HVAC68
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Now follow through on your promise.
All I have seen here so far is rationalizing about ways to break your word. The promise was extracted under duress, it its not written so is not binding, it was never intended to be for life etc etc etc
You agreed to it now live up to your agreement.
If it is inconvenient then too bad for you, you should never have made a promise that you never intended to keep if you want to also keep your honour and integrity.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
The boss spends a bit of time negotiating with dozer to stay. Dozer eventually decides not to stay and out of the blue, at the climax of the discussion, the boss requests dozer not to recruit others within the firm. Dozer replies that he won't.
What happened there? Was there a contract (legally or ethically)? No, because there was no distinct meeting of the minds. There was no "consideration", to use a legal term, between the two parties. The boss didn't give dozer a stipend or going away bonus not to recruit. He was simply asking dozer to "be nice", to not use dozer's relationships and knowledge of the firm's personnel to recruit.
Dozer, on the other hand, was simply being polite, getting out of an awkward and difficult conversation. He was in a position of discomfort and he admits that the promise not to recruit was not thought through.
But when you give your word to something, normally it applies to a mutual agreement where one party offers their "word" and the other party depends on it and acts on it differently had the word not been given. It was a unilateral promise on the part of dozer. The boss didn't say, "hey dozer, we're thinking about cutting back on some of our benefits to save some money but we can't do this if you actively recruit our employees. So could we count on you to not recruit our people away?"
In this case, the boss didn't depend on the word, didn't act on it, but rather, simply used a form of social coercion to get the promise out of dover due to the difficult social position that dover was in...he was leaving, and the boss used their long term relationship and the heat of the moment to benefit the firm.
I suggested that after a waiting period, dozer's promise not to recruit would be satisfied. The boss was distinctly worried that dozer's move would stimulate other moves in the immediate time period of the move.
So in a sense, the promise not to recruit could be paraphrased as "I won't respond to my move and my immediate reasons for moving and attempt to convince others in the firm to do the same."
Once the time period is over, dover's status is not one of a fresh ex-employee stirring up trouble, but rather simply an employee of another firm.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Everyone has their own take on ethics, what is right/wrong, etc.
My suggestion is still "to follow your own internal compass, since it is you who have to live with your decision."
Everyone has their own take on ethics, what is right/wrong, etc.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I agree that there is no contract since the elements of a contract are missing (offer, acceptance, consideration, intent and capacity). It is a gratuitous promise in legal speak.
The situation is that dozer gave his word and now wants us to help him rationalize breaking it.
I really doubt of any legal implications will happen if he does break his word. What may happen is that the former employer will consider this agreement part and parcel of the overall employment contract and therefore the agreement is legally binding but again I doubt if the case would get beyond the lawyers posturing and writing letter stage.
What may happen is that the former employer can state that he has no trust in dozer and that he went back on his word. Dozer would have no recourse since the truth is an absolute defense against slander and the claim would be truthful.
Bottom line if you do not intend to keep your word then keep your mouth shut.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
If I knew one of my former colleagues was unhappy at my former company and didn't have the freedom/confidence to seek out a new job and there was a position for them at my new company, I would actively encourage that colleague to make the move. This would be for the benefit of the individual involved and as much a favour to them as not recruiting is a favour to my old boss.
If my former colleagues were seemingly content to stay at my former company, I wouldn't go out of my way to communicate the possibility of work at my new company but if we were still in contact and they asked how things were going in the new job, I would answer honestly about being short-staffed or needing a person who can xxxx or whatever (assuming that is the honest answer). If they choose to take the hint and apply and their CV crosses my desk, I won't not hire them because of my promise to my former boss - they might be looking to make a move and we might both lose out.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
However, I'd vote with RDK here. Your word is YOUR BOND and your professional image is at stake. Having said that, you can wait a reasonable duration, either 6 mths or 1 yr and the poach to your heart's content.
TTFN
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
The waiting is my main point....His word is still kept, the circumstances surrounding that promise change completely over time and after a period, the promise doesn't really have any basis anymore.
I guess I fully believe that given his description, dozer was promising not to recruit under the current circumstances, not for the rest of his dang life.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Rick, you say, "The situation is that dozer gave his word and now wants us to help him rationalize breaking it." If you care to read my second post, I said, "Bottom line is I said I wouldn't so I won't." I'm not looking for anyone to give me an excuse to break my word. I was miffed that my former boss would even ask and I was wondering what other people's opinions and experiences are. Trying to gauge if my indignation was justified, if you will.
If you view someone from my old company coming to me and me getting them an interview as rationalizing and breaking my word, then so be it. I do not.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
The timing was poor and if this is a condition of employment, it should have been so stated.
TTFN
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
A) Read hundreds of resume's, invite them to an interview
B) Contact employees at other firms that are recommended by their former employees
C) ...
D) All of the above.
What ethics?
John
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
On my way out the door, my old boss says I can't hire any of his employees. I shrugged and said sure, there was only one I&E designer that I would want to take anyways. I think nothing of it.
So I get to my new company and I have all the power to hire anybody I want/need to. After being here for a couple of months I realize that our I&E department is in shambles and this one guy at my last company could probably have the whole department fixed in a month. It would be a great oppurtunity for him with lots of hands on experience which he isn't getting now, plus about an $8,000 year pay raise. Plus at the old company this guy gets the shaft everyday now that I am gone.
So what do I do?
What I am thinking about doing is going visit my old boss and explain to him the situation. Say look it would be better experience and more money for him, I would at least like to make him an offer. He is a pretty understanding guy.
I still expect my old boss to throw me out of his office though. And probably lose the 5 year working relationship I have built up with him. I say screw him, this is Texas and it's a right to work state. I have the right to hire the best guys I can get my hands on.
cadnutcase.
Hope this all made sense I didn't reread it.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
One question, if your boss is so understanding, why is he shafting your buddy on a daily basis?
I guess one thing we can all glean from this thread is not to take that stupid ass request lightly. What we both should have done when our exbosses said not to hire from them was say, "Excuse me? Do we have some contract I'm not aware of? What are you going to give me in return for this consideration?" etc. etc. Oh, well, live and learn.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I don't think my old boss would be so understanding. Overall he is a good guy, but he has to protect his own interest as well. That is why I basically haven't done anything yet.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Its just disturbing that some believe we need to be held on some pedestal of higher ethics or morality over and above our employer. Sure, there are cases where my beliefs would over ride my decision, but this is not one of them.
If the employer practiced what they preached, I would more likely be inclined to not recruit his people. In addition, if they were paying competitive wages and/or it was a great place to work, then companies stealing away their employees would not be of such a concern.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
There is no legal or contractual requirement to keep the promise. It would be in legal terms a gratuitous promise and would not be enforceable in court. The issue of a contract is writing is irrelevant. If there was a contract (remember offer, acceptance, intent, capacity and consideration?) then it is writing or verbal is not the issue. However this case there is is obviously no contract since there is no consideration or the exchange of items of value.
However the original poster gave his word. While that may or may not matter in some circles it does matter to me. (Actually I as also a Boy Scout leader for several years, again why do you ask?)
If you do not intend to keep your word then keep your mouth shut and refuse to agree to anything that you do not intend to follow. It is always better to not be in a position to have to rationalize breaking one’s word.
The discussion has revolved around the definition of recruiting. Is it recruiting to passively solicit people to leave the form or would only passive recruiting be OK? (Let them come to you rather that going after them.) To me that is all a matter of schematics designed to rationalize breaking the promise. A person’s word was given not to do something and they should not do that in any way shape or form without time limit.
However as was said, the original poster is the one that has to live with himself after taking whatever action he decides and the results of that action.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
"Well I know I told you I would not steal your employees but its a business decision".
Business and personal are two different things, nowadays. In the golden years, they were one in the same but now all gloves are off (not my decision, in fact I would prefer if they were still one in the same).
The company has no qualms about recruiting others from competitors so why should you? This obviously exposes their high and mighty 'business ethics", LOL.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
http
I hope the link works.
RDK,
I agree with you, but there are a couple of points I would like to make.
I just hate to see a good employee, who bust his butt all day, alot of the time off the clock, be in a dead end position. I want to take this guy away from what I think is a bad situation for him and bring him into at least a better situation. He and I have talked several times off the record, and I get a good feeling he is ready to move on to.
It aggravtes me to see a guy sitting in the same chair for 6 years straight.
Most of my life I have tried to live by my word, but when you think about it, how many times I have you promised something to somebody not knowing all the facts, and then when you get all the information, you can't keep your word.
This happens to me all the time, sales guy comes in says we are about to close on one of our standard products, how much time do you need. I say, standard great, I could get the whole project done in 100 hours. Project closes and there are many changes from the standard and I requote him 400 hours and he blows his lid.
So now the question is to you RDK, on your exist when you boss tells you not to hire any of his people, do you say?
1) No problem and walk out the door. (Keep the bridge)
2) Sorry, I will need to be compensated to not hire your
people (Slightly damage the bridge)
3) Say screw you, I don't work here anymore.
(Blow up the bridge)
I know when I left my old company they would hire me back in a second if I wanted to go back to work for them. When I left I was 2 weeks away from having my first child. Needless to say if something happened at my new company, I had something to fall back on.
cadnutcase
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Being wrong in an estimate is a different thing. If you estimated 100 hours for a standard task and you soon discovered that the task was not standard then you should have been telling the client as soon as you knew that the assumption that was the basis of the estimate was wrong and that there would be an adjustment. To wait until the work was 400 % over budget is significant error of omission. The client deserves to be told the status. What may have been a worthwhile project at 100 hours may not be worthwhile at 400 hours. That is the client’s decision to make and not yours.
If on exiting a former employer made the request that I not recruit any of his people, I would most likely state that once I am no longer employed by him he cannot control my actions. I might agree not to specifically target his firm for employees but should I have a position that would be best filled by one of his people I would want to be free to hire the best people. I’d go further to state that while I worked for him and took a salary from him I put his best interests first and could not in good conscience bind myself to an agreement that required me not to put the best interests of my new employer first.
If that burnt the bridge then that’s just the way it would be. As an employee you have a duty to put the best interests of your current employer first. By making the agreement you have made your new employers interests subordinate to those of the former employer.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
The only similarity was the former employee violated his word. It was a contractually binding agreement and not only did he break his word he also broke a contract and that is the basis of the lawsuit.
I have always maintained that the no recruit promise is a gratuitous promise and would not be binding at law. The issue is honour.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Further, if you told him you would not recruit, then don't do it. Eventually your colleagues will call and that will open the door.
This is pretty close to SlideRuleEra's approach.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Maui
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I was in a similar position back in 2001. When I resigned from my old company my manager and even the engineering VP spent a week trying to talk me out of resigning. Didn't work.
When I got to my new company and experienced a completely different attitude towards the employees I contaced several coworkers from my old company. A couple were interested and came over, a couple weren't interested and stayed there.
Of interest, my manager who spent a week trying to talk me out of resigning, quit his job and was working for the same company as I am now about 8 months after I left.
I would not worry about letting former coworkers know about your new company.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Steve Braune
Tank Industry Consultants
www.tankindustry.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Someone's word being their bond in a business situation means you're skipping that silly little step of a written contract. If it's really important, get it in writing--or put it in writing, if you're the one making the promises. Anything else is fantasy.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
If you cannot believe the word of those around you then you are apparently hanging around with the wrong crowd.
Also is you look at the thread on written contracts you will see that I will back up a verbal agreement with a written statement of our understanding. I previously stated that working for one of my oldest friends I had a written understanding of our agreement.
However the promise is not to recruit is not a binding contract. It is once again I state a gratuitous contract. Putting it is writing and having notarized seals all over it still will not change a gratuitous contract into one that any court will enforce.
Besides a written contract by itself has no real meaning. It is only an easy way to determine what the terms of the contact are.
Anyone who would lie about a verbal contract would also cheat on a written contract. If you do not have the money to take them to court or the value is not worth the bother then you are just as screwed by someone breaking a written contract as by someone breaking a verbal contract.
Like I said, its all about honour.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I guess there still are a few 'company men' still out there who are incredibly naive when it comes to the companies word. Some might get lucky and find the rare company who shows loyalty to their employees but this is certainly the exception.
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
It's about personal integrity.
Maui
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
I know this is a little late, but I have a question for RDK on his stance.
Non-compete clauses are unenforceable if the duration stated in the contract is too restrictive to the former employee. Therefore they must have a reasonable duration limit. So my question to you is, do you believe there would be a reasonable limitation before dozer (or anyone for that matter) could "reneg" on their word, especially when their word was given on such a broad spectrumed question?
Thanks,
jetmaker
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Courts in both Canada and the US have ruled on the scope and applicability of non-compete agreements and these are generally well understood. (They vary somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and over time.)
This is not about a legally enforceable contract agreement. The promise to not recruit was a gratuitous promise and would never be enforced by any court in any civil law jurisdiction because it fails the test of being an enforceable contract (no exchange of consideration.)
It is about personal integrity. The promise was made and maker of the promise should live up to his word, since there is no limit on the promise then it should apply forever.
However since no harm can befall for breaking his word, I would put it up to the promiser as to how long he would keep his agreement in place. That may be 5 minutes or 50 years, up to the person and his own moral conscience.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: Recruiting from Previous Employer
Not a former employer, my current one. One paragraph of my employment contract says that I will not recruit from within the company for 1 year.
Dittoes on the "keep your word" front.
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