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Bedded hospital?

Bedded hospital?

Bedded hospital?

(OP)
I come across announcements in Indian and other Asian papers "350 bedded hospital". Large and prestigious hospitals too announce it this way.Is it right to use the term Bedded. I always thought Bedded was the verb form  for "to bed".

Please advise the right noun to be used in the context "350 bedded hosptal."

RE: Bedded hospital?

What would you call a hotel with 350 rooms? 6 floors?

A car with three wheels? a man with two legs?

It ain't pretty but it is very common.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: Bedded hospital?

But it ain't pretty.  I'd advise against it.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Bedded hospital?

'Nother useful thought the second I hit "sumbit", of course...

I think what I would say about beds and rooms, but not legs and possibly not wheels, is "350-bed hospital", "350-room hotel", "5-story building".

Not sure what the difference is, other than maybe "legged" and "wheeled" have a longer pedigree.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Bedded hospital?

Perhaps legs, wheels, eyes etc. are part of the body. On the other hand I don't wear 4 pocketed-shirt.

I think "hospital with 350 beds" is a better way of saying it.

Ciao.

RE: Bedded hospital?

Sounds like an auctioneer's list but try this anyway:
Hotel, 350 rooms.
Hospital, 350 beds, 75 private rooms, 4 operating theatres.

RE: Bedded hospital?

How about a "carpeted" hospital?  

Carpeted
Stabilized
Windowed
Lighted
Occupied
Dusted
Painted

Some are natural verbs but all can be nouns as well except for occupy (occupant....occupanted)

English - jeesh - you can't live with it, you can't live without it (or was that women?)

RE: Bedded hospital?

(OP)
Bedded is a term more often used in yellow magazines. It certainly becomes akward using it in normal conversations. But I find the word being used rampantly .

RE: Bedded hospital?

350 bed hospital.

RE: Bedded hospital?

stevenal,

If you are using a number for an adjective, you should use a dash.  See HgTX's post above.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Bedded hospital?

Agree, always use a dash. Just in case somebody decides to build 3 350-bedded hospitals at the same time. Or 350 bedded hospitals of which the size is still to be determined.

RE: Bedded hospital?

Generally the process of entitlement to build a new hospital involves applying for a Certificate of Need.  Hospitals are always described by the number of beds, meaning the maximum number of in-patients the hospital can serve.  But you would not say 'bedded', of course.  It's more like "350-bed facility to include emergency room services, on-site nuclear lab, MRI and substance-abuse wing."  The number of beds does not equal the number of rooms.  In fact, the only places where I have designed one bed per room was a CCU (cardiac care unit).  Regular ICU has about 6-8 beds in one large room.  Regular patient rooms have two beds per room, except LDRP (labor, delivery, recovery, post-partum) have just one with a private seating area for family.  The private seating area always includes a sleeper sofa, but it doesn't count as a bed with respect to the permitting process.

Hotels during the design and permitting process are generally described by the number of 'keys'.  One key is one guest room, even if more than one guest can stay in the room.  A hotel description is generally something like, "150-key executive suite hotel, including lobby, business center, 5 meeting/conference rooms, exercise room, on-site laundry, and cafe with vending."  100% occpancy is generally estimated at 2 persons per room, even though you could easily have 4-5.  I have no idea where this started, but it is common language in the hospitality business.

So, to review,

Hopitals:  Beds = in-patient load (no direct relationship to size of building.)

Hotels: Keys = number of guest rooms (no direct relationship to number of guests, even at 100% occupancy)

Now wasn't that easy?

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: Bedded hospital?

Interesting to note that the design basis of very similar facilities is so different.
By the way you drive non-jargon speakers crazy: hospitality business does not equal running a hospital, and subtance abuse is significantly higher in the cafe with vending than in the substance abuse wing... smile

RE: Bedded hospital?

Greg,
What to call a man with two legs?

Normal
Biped

I don't think I would ever say two-legged.  And I would always say 6-stories rather than 6-floored.  But you got me on the 3-wheeled vehicle.

Do they still call it the hospitality sector?  I thought it was refered to as service sector now?

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Bedded hospital?

This is a very good question.  It is not uncommon in English to take a verb, apply the '-ed' suffix and use it as an adjective.

I'm not sure of any guidelines either, other than as HgTx has already said, accustomed usage.

Some things to consider,
Leg is a noun, but not a verb, and the adjective is legged.
Bed is a noun and a verb, and accustomed usage suggest bed is the adjective.
Wheel is a noun and a verb, and accustomed usage suggests wheeled is the adjective.
Head is a noun and a verb, and accustomed usage suggests headed is the adjective.

Any other thoughts?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

I have the impression that the general rule is to add the "-ed" suffix.
"red handed"
"black eyed"
"short tempered"

It gets irregular only when a number is used instead of the adjective "red" or "black":
"5-story building"
"double barrel shotgun"
"3-wheeled vehicle"

Anyway since language rules develop "bottom-up" (except some rare cases like in Holland where the government thinks they can issue new spelling rules every so many years and expect everyone to follow them) we shouldn't be surprised to discover they are not consistent or even logical.

RE: Bedded hospital?

(OP)
"100 pages note book" Is commonly used but
Why not 100 paged note book.

RE: Bedded hospital?

==> "100 pages note book"
I'm not sure that the plural should be used for adjectives.

Whereas there are 100 pages in the notebook, it is a 100-page notebook.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

CajunCenturion--the noun/verb pattern doesn't work, because the verbs don't mean the same thing as the words do in the pattern we're discussing.  A "wheeled" cart in this context is one that has wheels (noun), not one that is being wheeled (verb).  Likewise for all the others.  And I believe it's precisely that difference in meaning that makes some people not like "bedded" in the sense presented in the initial post--we all know what "bedded" means as a verb or participle, and that's not what's intended in the example.

Google, google...Ah.  These are called compound adjectives.  They're not the same as participles, which also end in -ed, because what we're talking about here are formed from nouns, not verbs.  And they have to imply something is part of something else--high-heeled shoe, three-legged stool, six-sided box, red-haired boy, pretty much anything with a body part in that context, and some that don't need anything before them like striped, or threaded (though one could argue for a participial interpretation on those)--rather than mere possession, which is why "three-ringed" is fine when describing the markings on an animal's tail, but not when describing someone who owns three rings.  

Nothing is ever that straightfoward, though.  I could argue that "bedded" doesn't work because the beds aren't an inherent part of the hospital, but that wouldn't explain why I don't like "60-roomed" hospital either.  Plus there's "masked man"--it fits the possession vs. part-of-whole distinction if we say it only works if the man is currently wearing the mask, not holding it in his hand, but then why wouldn't "ringed" work for someone wearing rings?  And yet it doesn't, really.

But it's a start.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Bedded hospital?

I understand that HgTX, which is why I initially stated that I didn't know of any guidelines, and only presented them as things to consider.  It wasn't intended to suggest a cogent pattern.

I'm not sure I follow your rationale about the difference in meaning that makes people not like 'bedded' but accept 'wheeled'.  Why would one be affected by the difference, but the other not?

I'm also not quite sure that we should be too quick to dismiss that we're not talking about participles.  I think that the '-ed' suffix for adjectives can easily be described indicating that the associated noun 'has the quality of, or the attribute of'.  That's why the adjective is often considered as coming from the verb because often, but certainly not always, the noun attains that property, quality, or attribute after the application of the verb.  It's a painted house after it's been painted as one example.  Even moreso, it can be seen as a participle when the adjective is formed from an irregular verb, such as 'a frozen desert', or 'a spent dollar'.

Nevertheless, I think using the 'property of or quality of' meaning may be slightly more encompasing than just being a part of because the attribute exterds to things that are not necessarilly tangible, which cover the striped or threaded difficulties, as well as provide separation between quality of and ownership of.

I do like your position that bedded doesn't work because beds are not an inherent part of a hospital.  Further, to ease your concern, neither are rooms.  You can have a hospital that has only one or two open wards.  Certainly field hospitals may have neither have beds nor rooms, yet still be hospitals.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

We are definitely not talking about participles.  "Painted" is a participle because, as you say, the house becomes painted after someone paints it.  The hospital, on the other hand, does not become bedded after someone beds it, nor does the wagon only become wheeled after someone wheels it, any more than the stool becomes legged once someone "legs" it.  We are talking about adjectives formed from nouns, not from verbs, even if many of those nouns also have verb forms.  Participles are by definition formed from verbs.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Bedded hospital?

I think that it is because we're talking about participles that 'bedded' is wrong.  Bedded is the particple, and it doesn't work because 'to bed' a hospital doesn't change the attributes of a hospital.  That's precisely why bedded doesn't work as an adjective for hospital.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

Are you saying we don't like "bedded" as an adjective because we're used to hearing it as a participle, with a different meaning?

But as you said, "wheel" and "face" can also be verbs, and thus have "-ed" participles, and yet this doesn't interfere with our ability to process their "-ed" adjectives instead.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Bedded hospital?

No, that's not what I'm saying.  What I'm saying (at least what I think I'm saying), is that we can only use the past participle of a verb as an adjective if the verb can be applied to the noun, and that the application of that verb alters some quality or property of the noun.

We can paint a house, and when we paint a house, we change a property of the house, so we can easily use the past particple of paint as an adjective ==> a painted house.
We can freeze a desert, so when we freeze a desert, we change a property of the desert, so we can readily use the past particple as an adjective ==> a frozen desert.

On the other hand, I submit that 'to bed' a hospital doesn't make sense, so it's not changing any property of the hospital.  That disallows the use of the past participle as adjective, so we can't have a bedded hospital.

It may be that some day (hopefully not in my lifetime), 'to bed' a hospital will mean 'to furnish with beds' and if and when that day comes, then, at least by this logic, a bedded hospital would make sense.  Note that it's perfectly ok to furnish a hospital with beds giving us a furnished hospital.

Legged doesn't really apply because there is no verb 'to leg', so by using 'legged', we're not violating the proper use of a participle.

However, that does seem to make 'wheeled' the exception unless you accept that 'to wheel' means 'to put wheels on', and I'm not aware of that being a valid definition, although it does make sense, sort of.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

Of course, freezing a desert is a lot harder than freezing a dessert, and not only that, frozen desserts are far more appealing.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

What about deserted freezes?

There is a difference between an adjective formed from a noun plus "-ed" and a participle formed from a verb plus "-ed".  These compound adjectives are just that--adjectives.  They are NOT participles.

Just as "legged" isn't a participle, neither are "bedded" or "wheeled" in this case.  The only way participles *might* come into it is because there are ALSO participles out there of similar form that take precedence in our minds, which I still think is along the lines of what you're talking about.

But these are not participles.

A red-faced person is not someone who has been faced, even though "face" can be a verb.
A 350-bedded hospital (for those who accept that use) is not a hospital that has been bedded, even though "bed" can be a verb.
A 3-wheeled cart is not a cart that has been wheeled, even though "wheel" can be a verb.
A 6-fingered hard is not a hand that has been fingered, even though "finger" can be a verb.

These are not participles.  They are based on NOUNS, not verbs.  They are exactly parallel to "many-faceted", "red-haired", and other expressions that don't have verbs in them.

But this adjectival construction does require a closer relationship, along the lines of part to whole, than mere legal possession (this requirement is documented in grammar texts; it's not just my personal observation).  I suspect that might be the problem with "bedded" though I don't see why it would be a problem with "floored" (a 5-floored building), even though to me that's not a good construction.  

I think we could probably find that sort of relationship (even if it's a little strained, as in "masked man") every time this construction is used.  Perhaps the cases where it ought to work but doesn't (like "floored") are because this used to be a productive feature in English but then froze, so it's not taking on any new applicants, as it were.

Or maybe it's just random.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Bedded hospital?

We're talking about two different things.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Bedded hospital?

3 legged stool, 3 legged cat, they are both 'normal' descriptions.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

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