watching the company rules
watching the company rules
(OP)
I have a person who works in my group that has become a master
at obeying the companies rules.
When given an assignment he will go far enough to find a
conflict with the company rules, like an obscure purchasing
procedure that requires a VP signature or a procedure
that requires many approvals but which has not in recent
history been observed as required. In short he looks for the
loopholes in the company procedures and uses them to
be a pain in the rear.
On the other hand the guy is obeying the rules. But only for
his benefit.
It is of course difficult to discipline this guy for this
kind of behavior since he has does nothing wrong.
My point is that every company has conflicting rules and
an understood way to do things and this guy is not playing
along.
How can we force the issue that he must be a team player???
at obeying the companies rules.
When given an assignment he will go far enough to find a
conflict with the company rules, like an obscure purchasing
procedure that requires a VP signature or a procedure
that requires many approvals but which has not in recent
history been observed as required. In short he looks for the
loopholes in the company procedures and uses them to
be a pain in the rear.
On the other hand the guy is obeying the rules. But only for
his benefit.
It is of course difficult to discipline this guy for this
kind of behavior since he has does nothing wrong.
My point is that every company has conflicting rules and
an understood way to do things and this guy is not playing
along.
How can we force the issue that he must be a team player???





RE: watching the company rules
HVAC68
RE: watching the company rules
Just point out to him that what he is doing is affecting his colleagues respect for him, his advancement within the company & of course his salary.
or ...
Whenever he exposes a conflicting rule/procedure, eliminate or change it. Eventually you will have a "perfect" set of rules he won't be able to "break".
or ...
Beat him at his own game. Create idiotic procedures & make him, & only him, follow them till he gets the message.
Helpful SW websites FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions FAQ559-1091
RE: watching the company rules
In an ISO or FDA or QS controlled environment, there are supposed to be written rules to follow, and you're supposed to be disciplined for _not_ following the rules, or _the_company_ is disciplined by losing its certs or not being allowed to ship product.
If you have "unwritten rules" that everyone is expected to observe, especially if they conflict with the written rules, you need to start writing them down. If you have silly rules, you need to fix them.
Your slacker friend could be the only survivor of the next surprise audit. Not that it will do him any good, with you having put the company out of business with your lax behaviors.
Team players honor the rules of the game, too.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: watching the company rules
If company employees are not going to follow established procedures why not just toss them all out the window? The
"rules" were developed for a reason and if they are not producing the desired outcome then they need to be revised.
I understand your frustration with an employee who uses company policies to be a PITA but to hold him accountable for that sort of behavior is on the same plane as everyone else bypassing or using "unwritten" rules in the name of expediency. Mike Halloran makes an excellent point, imho your company has some management issues to deal with.
Regards,
RLS
RE: watching the company rules
We called this technique the "Cotton-Covered Rock", push anywhere and it gives, push really hard and nothing happens.
The best solution to your problem is to challenge the guy to actually follow the rules. If a VP approval is required, have him write a memo on the project in the standard executive-one-page format and make an appointment with the guy. Don't accept his "I'm shut down because the VP has to sign the document" make him explain why he hasn't already prepared the memo and Fed-Ex'd it to wherever it needs to go. If the rules are dumb or outdated then a few memo's to VP's, Board Members, etc. should get them sorted out.
David
RE: watching the company rules
Eventually one of the senior procedures managers registered a complaint to my manager about me for not following the correct procedures!
I wasn't trying to make a point or work-to-rule or anything, just get my job done. My colleagues couldn't tell me what to do so I consulted the manual.
RE: watching the company rules
When faced with this situation, I have often switched to the "results based" management technique. In this mode, you assign a task and expect it to be completed. It is up to your rules follower to complete the task while following the company rules. You expect him to complete the task, even if it means extra hours, extra work, whatever it takes (in other words, there are no excuses). If he does not complete the task, you reprimand him for it. If he points to the rules as what is holding him up, you say, "everyone else seems to be getting the job done, why are you unable to?" Eventually he will catch on or you can dismiss him for inability to complete assigned tasks. Good luck.
ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com
RE: watching the company rules
RE: watching the company rules
thanks
One thing to add is that I don't want to sit in a
courtroom explaining to a jury about reprimanding or
otherwise disciplining an employee for following company
policy.
The real problem is that my company has lots of rules.
Kind of like the speed limit. Who drives the speed limit??
In the event of becoming unhappy with an employeed there
are allways small infractions that can be documented for
purposes of dismissal.
Many of these revolve around the internet. We should not
download anything from the internet. But every day our
people need to get things from cyberspace to help them
do their work. If you ask a peer they just say go ahead
just don't tell anyone.
Work times for instance. Not allowed to leave the property
until work time is over.
But routinely sent out to get something at Office store
or other local shop. It soon occurs to an employee that
he can go out on his own if he needs something.
Once again everybody does it, but it is technically a
no-no.
I think I will get this guy promoted out of my space.
Thats the new way of solving problems.
thanks
RE: watching the company rules
Most companies have good reasons when they write a new rule or procedure. The trick is to review those rules and procedures periodically and eliminate the ones that no longer apply. It doesn't sound like that has been happening in your company. I agree with those above who said to eliminate rules that are no longer necessary or practical.
RE: watching the company rules
RE: watching the company rules
ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com
RE: watching the company rules
Rules and procedures are a requisite part of your ISO 9002 or whatever.
Company rules are intended to govern the behaviour of employees.
The real problem is how good or how bad are the rules?
I they are bad it means they are not used and that means there is a lack of alignment in the company....
Someone wrote them. It is usually that persons job to stay on top of them and ensure they are appropriate. These rules are as important to the management of the company and its procedures ass standards are to engineering.
So you might say that if management doesn't ensure that rules are enforced, it means something is wrong: to be effective not only do rules have to be appropriate you also need:
- monitoring
- verification
- compliance
- enforcement
- implementation
No metrics? no performance, no compliance and poor enforcement. Poor enforcement doesn't mean that people who break the rules will not be found out, it just means that it is a lottery as to who gets caught and when and what happens... sods law takes over....Incidentally:
Wrong. It has been the way for ever.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: watching the company rules
I was wondering, what does your colleague do after finding the obscure rules?
Does he come back to you and say he can't do anything, and dumps it back on your lap? If so, you may want to suggest to him that it is still his assignment, and he needs to solve the problem, remove the roadblock, and get his job done.
Does he come back to you and says he needs to do x,y,z, because the company rules says he needs to do them? If so, then you may want to help him eliminate the roadblocks together, per the company rules, including changing the company rules to reflect the "better" way to do them.
Ignoring written company policy, rules, etc. is not a good idea.
In some cases, it can lead to legal trouble (both civil and criminal).
In other cases, it can lead to injury/safety infraction.
It seems to me that in this situation, your colleague may be doing you and your company a favour.
RE: watching the company rules
***************
zcp (Mechanical) 2 Dec 05 8:32
2dye4,
When faced with this situation, I have often switched to the "results based" management technique.
***************
This comment typifies what is wrong with MBA's and their management styles.
Overbearing and ridiculous rules are put into place and then you are expected to circumvent them in order to get the project done on time. But lookout if you get caught not following the rules because the bosses won't back you up.
The people who put some of these rules into place need to go back and try to do a job following them (AND make money at the same time)!
RE: watching the company rules
Unlike many laws which are on the books that are ignored because they are commonly understood to be idiotic (i.e. it is illegal for women in Tucson to wear pants), coorporate rules and laws and the rational behind them are not readly aparent.
If the procedures are truley outdated and not necessary tell him to stop following them and no one will care or notice.
If anyone would care or notice then it is time to change the rule or follow it.
RE: watching the company rules
As my friend often said, "Tonight, I go to bed a little bit less stupid."
This is the reason why I joined this forum. I am always learning something new. I did not know women are not allowed to wear pants in Tucson.
You bring up a good point - how do we know what the original rational / intent / purpose of a policy/rule? I guess the way I look at it is from a more current view point. Is this rule still relevant - this way, the history of it is not so important.
We go to school, apprenticeships, gain knowledge and experience, so that we are capable of self-thought. To express our own ideas. To question.
If I think a rule or policy is no longer applicable, I ask. I talk to my peers, my boss, my client, etc. If the policy/rule still doesn't make sense to us, then we to to the policy/rule custodians and ask for an exception to the policy/rule (e.g. many companies allows exceptions to their standards if based on valid reasons). Or, if I feel stronger in my conviction, I can apply to have the policy/rule ammended, nulled, etc. (although since I do not work for an owner/producer, I haven't have much opportunity to do this).
The key thing is to bring it up, examine it, ask questions, and hopefully find a resolution to move on.
RE: watching the company rules
When times are bad, expect to expand to cover more activities and, if it is qualified with a set of coonditions, expect them to tighten up. For example, the limit at which lower beings can spend money without authorisation changes up or down according to company health.
This type of rule is intended to ensure that the management are aware of any serious undertakings by their employees that may affect cash flow, profitability, margins, legal liabilities etc. etc.
When times get tough you may find that even requisitioning more pens or paper needs a management signature.
Big risks or expenditures often require just about everyone senior has had a say and to get some signatures you may need to put in a big effort and write some justifications.
If you have ignored these rules when times were good, you may get away with it but never ever ignore them when times are bad.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: watching the company rules
If your internal systems are so cumbersome that work cannot get done except by ignoring the rules then you have two options, Change the rules to be reasonable and effective or stop doing anything productive and follow the rules.
Your ‘problem’ employee is simply doing his job. You have not done yours as management by streamlining the rules so that an employee to actually accomplishing something while following the rules.
Let me ask one thing. If something went so wrong that a major lawsuit or other disaster occurred, who would take the blame the employee for not following the rules or the management for not having rules that worked?
If management is willing to state publicly in advance that it would take the blame because the rules were not followable then why not change the rules?
If the employee would take the blame (and this will happen in 99.999999999% of all cases) then you cannot fault the employee for following the rules.
Actually you should be thanking this employee for having the courage to demonstrate that your rules are unworkable and useless and in dire need of modification.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: watching the company rules
Beauracracy creation and control is a managerial responsibility as it deals with the inputs and outputs of a department or organization. Your employee is perhaps showing you that there are some large $ out there that could be saved (either real or in liability avoidance) by reviewing official practice vs. current practice. This "problem" may in actuality be an opportunity.
Regards,
RE: watching the company rules
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: watching the company rules
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: watching the company rules
I am not directly in the Military. Just a part supplier.
I am subject to the rules also. But I bend them just the same.
The answear to my problem as outlined by many above posts is
an outdated rule system that is kept in place by a few who
have a vested interest in the confusion.
Many a time I have found a group of managers in one spot and
cornered them on what the correct action would be.
I learned to leave after about 20 min of there discussing
among themselves as I knew I would not get an answear.
It is true I work in a somewhat disfunctional organization
and my rule follower is just doing what RDK suggested by
stoping anything productive and just follow the rules.
He may actually be right about it. Precedent has been to just wing it though.
Thanks all
RE: watching the company rules
Word of the day is martinet.
RE: watching the company rules
Years back, I had the opportunity to write the work procredures for our department while we were qualifying/applying for ISO 9000 certification. I followed the simple rule of writing what we were doing. Of course, we had to fit those within the framework of ISO procedures. Also, once we started writing down the procedures, we realised some of them were not good and we changed those to what was right and yet practical to comply.
HVAC68
RE: watching the company rules
Have you taken the person side and in a non- threatening way elicited the reason why? Try and discover the agenda.
Remember, knowlege IS power.
Talking about winging, was it Icarus who winged it and paid the price?
RE: watching the company rules
Then the answer may be to put the problem and the solution under one ownership.
Unless this happens, nothing changes.
The trick would be to find out how to make bad rules a problem for the pople who create and maintain them and not for the people who follow them.
Any suggestions?
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: watching the company rules
RE: watching the company rules
I guess I'm the same kind of pain in the ass as 2dye4's guy--I actually do have all the receipts and stuff that they want me to submit; I just refuse to submit any receipts that aren't specifically listed as mandatory. Why have the list if they're still going to want everything?
But every time I submit a form, they come up with some other unwritten policy that I apparently should have been following for the last several years and that no one asked about till just now. (The latest was that if I'm claiming personal vehicle mileage, I need to state explicitly on the expense report form that I did in fact use a personal vehicle. I think they're getting desperate.) So I'm a by-the-book pain in the ass in order to fight back. It won't really change anything, but it makes me feel a little bit better.
I bet 2dye4's guy is protesting something as well. rnd2 has the right idea--find out his agenda.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: watching the company rules
You better be nice to him. He will slow things down demanding more headcount for himself under the rules. Soon he will be a manager and his boss a Sr. Manager. As the new Sr. Manager sees the positive in having clumbersome rules by being rewarded with promotions and more bonuses, he will have more rules and more headcount.
Then when business really picks up, he will first hire many more people so he will become a VP until the workforce pool is drained. Then he will get a promotion to President by eliminating the rules to make things run faster when he can't hire any new people.
Its all about headcount.
RE: watching the company rules
Up until 1994 I didn't have a car licence. In common with many Brits, a bike licence was more important to me as a youngster. In '93 I was asked to go on a business trip by myself. Company rules stated that "In the absence of a suitable company vehicle, employees could take their own vehicle at a rate of 24p per mile (for gasoline vehicles less than 1.6L)". We had no bikes in our pool, so I took my personal bike (gasoline, 550cc). When I submitted an expenses claim, all hell broke loose. Within days a new rule said that motorcycle claims were only going to be rated at 12p per mile. As earlier in this thread I researched and followed rules. Again, shafted!
RE: watching the company rules
TTFN
RE: watching the company rules
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: watching the company rules
At one company I worked at, the rule stated that we were not allowed to use personal vehicles, only rental vehicles (since we didn't have a car pool).
I always assumed that this was due to liability wrt to upkeep, maintenance, etc. I guess I now know of at least one more reason why this rule was implemented. Never really thought about using a motorcycle vs. car mileage difference. Hmmm. Interesting.
RE: watching the company rules
Kinda like if they give you a standard per diem for hotel & food rather than reimbursing based on receipts--should they pay less to vegetarians because vegetarian items typically cost less in restaurants? No, there's a standard rate and if the employee is more frugal for whatever reason, good for them.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: watching the company rules
Be very sure that your policy allows you to use your vehicle for business.
Read the small print, you may find in some policies that also includes travel to and from work.
If your company wants you to go some place they need to provide the transport. The mileage rates usually are applied to sales reps and service people who can have the option to pay their own mileage or provide their own vehicle, properly insured, in place of a company vehicle.
JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com
RE: watching the company rules
My company was pretty naive about insurance back then. I just checked our current policy document and it states:
And to answer IRstuff: I wasn't gaming the rules. They simply stated that "If there was no suitable comapany vehicle available..." and there wasn't - my driving license only permitted motorcycles (car licenses are expensive things to acquire in the UK, especially for recent graduates with negative bank balances). I thought it was quite amusing that my claim was worth 20% of the bike's value. But then again I only got 40mpg, so I wasn't going to profit any more than the driver of a diesel car.
RE: watching the company rules
From memory, I think you had to give a reason for not taking a pool car. So I did. Looking at today's wording, it seems that the choice would be mine. But then again, how many people would choose to insure their car for business use?
RE: watching the company rules
The mileage rate should also take care of any increase in insurance rates anyway.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: watching the company rules
RE: watching the company rules
The simplified procedure actually was documented. It wasn't approved by the manufacturer or the FAA. It wasn't submitted for approval. Using a forklift to raise the engine and pylon together >>> "served the same purpose" <<< as the official procedure that used special fixtures and removed the engine load from the pylon before removing the pylon (to replace a spherical bearing with limited life). What wasn't documented was that extreme care was required in positioning and operating the forklft, to avoid structural damage.
May 25, 1979 American Airlines Flight 191 DC-10
273 dead.
One might argue that the death toll also includes the DC-10, McDonnell Douglas, and maybe soon American Airlines.
Now, maybe the procedure for placing a piezometer is not really all that critical to the job at hand. The guys who simplified the engine maintenance procedure no doubt figured that how you lift the engine is not really all that critical to the job at hand.
My point is, if a procedure exists and you choose to ignore or modify it, you may be risking global consequences.
Okay, that was a really extreme example, but ... absent complete information about the origin of a procedure, how can you accurately evaluate its importance?
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: watching the company rules
2) I would strongly suggest you do not promote them out of the way. Your company should have performance reviews on a regular basis. Team work, productivity, and quality should all be metrics that all employees are measured by. These metrics should also be used to encourage desired behavior. Promoting him just continues the drag on the company's bottom line (and morale if others see him getting away with less work) if they are being obstructionists or minimizing their work. It also reinforces in their mind, and perhaps others, that what they are doing is acceptable and even favored behavior by the promotion. You do not do anyone any favors by promoting him.
3) Understand the employee's motivation. I know how difficult some of these conversations can be... seek out advice from other successful managers in your company that have had to deal with this in the past. You will do yourself the most favor by being honest and upfront. At least you will have a clean conscience and your integrity.
4) If it becomes too much of an issue, you may want to talk with your HR manager to discuss how you can encourage more favorable behavior or what other options you have.
Hope that helps.
-myhonda
RE: watching the company rules
To clarify a little. They used the Forklift to mount the Pylon/Eng Combination, which is probably not a good idea, but the reason the Pylon/Eng separated from the wing was: As they were using the forklift for installation they installed the Aft Mounting Bolt and then took a lunch break. During lunch, with the forklift shut off, the hydraulics bled off on the lift actuators which left the Pylon/Eng hanging on the Aft Mount Bolt. After lunch they finished installation of the Pylon/Eng and never thought anything else about it.
When I worked on DC-9s, we used an Engine Lift to mount the Engine. BUT there was a "Caution" in the procedure, that once the Eng installation started, the lift was required to maintain verticle position until the installation was complete. If you couldn't finish without taking a break, you didn't start.
Rerig
RE: watching the company rules
After AA191, inspection of the global fleet revealed something like nine more similar cracks. Perhaps the caution was not worded strongly enough, and the unapproved unofficial procedure was in turn widely modified or ignored or interpreted liberally on an unofficial unofficial basis. So, there wasn't just the one instance of the crew taking a lunch break.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: watching the company rules
download anything from the internet. But every day our
people need to get things from cyberspace to help them
do their work. If you ask a peer they just say go ahead
just don't tell anyone."
Just a thought that you have a security issue here if your'e supplying parts for the military. Is it accurate that a hacker could get into some sensitive information on your companies systems?
If it has to be a "just don't tell anyone" policy to get your work done you need to get off this guys back and fix the policy not him.
RE: watching the company rules
at obeying the companies rules. "
Are you sure he is the one with the problem?
RE: watching the company rules
If they are physically able to download stuff from the Net, just "not supposed to", then it's not a matter of protection from hackers getting into the system but more of things like malware or just badly designed software than can create problems for the individual's computer or the network. We're not supposed to download anything here either--basically because one never knows whether the new software will work and play well with whatever we already have in place (and because people will download stupid non-work-related toys that might be carrying god-knows-what). We do have a legal way around it though--if I find something I want, I ask the IT people and they play with it to see if it hurts anything, and then they let me download it.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: watching the company rules
It is very easy to work around as Hg points out, if there are reasonable people in IT.
RE: watching the company rules
I'm curious if this guy would get backed up by 2dye4 if he did "play along" and got heat for it.
Most company rules are put in place to prevent bad things from happening not to prevent good things from getting done.