Synthetic Engine Oil
Synthetic Engine Oil
(OP)
I did a search for this one also with no luck. Sorry if this has been asked before. I put this in another thread rather than combine it with my question on High Mileage Oils.
So, I have a car with 120k miles on it and have always run the standard 10W-30 from one of the local quick change marts: non synthetic I assume.
I've heard stories of going to synthetic after so long on the natural stuff and have heard of gumming and leaks.
Any one out there with the real story?
Plus, my wife will be getting a new car soon. The dealer is giving 3 free oil changes. Is it worth starting from the beginning with synthetic and lengthening the time between oil changes?
Oh. I'm looking for a layman's answer. I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you get into acids and the better weights.
So, I have a car with 120k miles on it and have always run the standard 10W-30 from one of the local quick change marts: non synthetic I assume.
I've heard stories of going to synthetic after so long on the natural stuff and have heard of gumming and leaks.
Any one out there with the real story?
Plus, my wife will be getting a new car soon. The dealer is giving 3 free oil changes. Is it worth starting from the beginning with synthetic and lengthening the time between oil changes?
Oh. I'm looking for a layman's answer. I have no idea what you guys are talking about when you get into acids and the better weights.
This is normally the space where people post something insightful.





RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Well, synthetic lubricants are pretty much the IN thing right now...note I did not say the BEST thing. In your case, you have already 120k with now problems (I have gone over 380k on std lubricants with a 77 360 Dodge and I drive a 75 year old car that, while it is on Mobil 1 now, spent most of it's life on regular 'rot gut' oil of indeterminate quality. The change to syn was uneventful about five years ago...just drained out the old and added the Mobil 1 15W-50 and drove away...no problems yet.
I use synthetic in my race engines because I perceive it to be superior...however, I never lost an engine to lubrication failure using Castrol 30R/40R and later 20W-50 in some 40 plus years of racing prior to changing to synthetic.
Oil change intervals? I use 3000 on my wife's Lincoln and 6000 on my Dodge diesel(13 qts). The current recommendations vary from 3000 to 15000 depending on the OEM. Mobil 1 will now warrent their product for extended, up to 15,000 miles, change intervals. I see no problem with this in MY case and that is not to say EVERY case (I will continue to change at 6000). I spent most of my career changing oil and filter at 3000 mile intervals so this switch to 6000 miles is a milestone for me. The '01 Lincoln has 130k and the'91 Dodge has 200k---all with zero problems.
Bottom line: If you live in the desert southwest and tend to drive at 90 to 100 mph as every one else, change more frequently and use a synthetic. If you live in the snowbelt or a lot of 'stop and go', change every 3000 miles and stick with the recommended viscosity for the time of year---synthetic, if it makes you feel better.
Don't misunderstand me here. Synthetic lubricants are the top of the line and I highly recommend them where they are needed...they are just not needed in every application, IMO.
The analogy to fuel---if your car only needs 'regular' then money spent on 'premium' is wasted.
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Blacksmith
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
There's no harm in running a new vehicle on synthetics from the get-go, but be aware that to get the full benefit from them in normal service (no towing or driving like a taxi-cab) you must have the courage to run at least a 10K mi change interval, which few US-market cars allow for warranty purposes. I think you'd have to be pretty persnickety to walk away from three free oil changes . . .
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I switch all my vehicles to synthetic as soon as possible. I use the Amsoil guidelines for oil change intervals. My 98 Dodge Stratus has been using Amsoil Series 3000 0W-30 since 2000 miles, is now at 125,000 miles, using 1 year change intervals. Amsoil recoommended 35,000 or 1 year intervals. I do not put that many miles on the car. The filter gets changed every 6 months. The oil is clean, and there have been no issues with any wear related items on the engine (had a headgasket go & a water pump).
I run 10W30 in my old Saabs, also with 1 year intervals, and filter change at 6 months. I put approximately 12,000 miles a year on those. Again, no wear issues on those.
Many folks have been brain-washed into 3000 mile oil changes. I call it the "Mobil Myth". If you look in any new car's owners manual, you will be hard-pressed to find one that recommends 3000 mile oil changes. Mobil has finally knuckled under, and started making oils that they claim will go beyond 3000 miles. This is due to pressure from competition. Beleive me, they still want you to change at 3000 miles.
Synthetics keep your engine cleaner and more efficient longer, as it is chemically pure to begin with, rather than refined to an acceptable level. You will find that even if the oil does get dirty, you can clean it up by changing filters. With the currant costs of cars these days, I don't know why there is anyone that does not use synthetic oil. You can link to Amsoil from my website www.lubealt.com
Russell Giuliano
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I appreciate hearing your point of view, even though it is self admittadely biased (as is mine, I suppose). I have a couple of comments...
125,000 miles with "...had a headgasket & a water pump"........only?
My old 77 Dodge went nearly 385,000 miles with "only" one water pump and a timing chain (changed at ~100k as a preventative measure...I don't trust the Al/teflon junk that the OEM were using at the time) on several brands of petroleum based lubricants.
Your advice about synthetics 'cleaning varnish deposits' is well taken, however, it is nowhere near the systemic problem that is commonly attributed to synthetic lubricants...based on my experience of the past ten plus years converting antique cars to Mobil 1...the most recent my original, two owner 1930 Ford, changed in Jan. 2000 at 100,000 miles and, currently at 122,000 miles with no appreciable concerns in the "leaking seal" department. I went through all this in the 1950's when converting to "detergent" oils...Man I wish the oil companies had used "dispersant" instead. Nearly all the problems in this area are from "sludge" deposits...moisture in the oil and lack of proper maintenance...is generally what I have found to cause it. Surprisingly, I don't see this problem very much these days...like I said, just about any oil today is far superior to (almost) ANYTHING I used in the '50's. (on my race engines and motorcycles I used Castrol 30R and 40R in the 50's and 60's... 'bean oil' and not petroleum based).
Changing filters in mid oil change interval...As long as at least one additional qt of oil is added in the process, I think the additive package will not totally disapate. I still don't cotton to the idea, personally. If the filter needs changing, so should the oil, IMO. Actuall it works out that I change all my vehicles, save my wife's Lincoln (free dealer service), once a year as none but the motorhomes 454 bbc gets close to 6000 miles. I don't like extended interval oil changes for ALL applications...with oil analysis at 6000 miles, perhaps. Still not a general, blanket statement I am willing to condone, as I posted previously.
Brain washing?---Well, yes...they are dealing with the 'lowest common denominator' in most cases and that should not include the members of this forum---I so fervantly hope!
"...I don't know why there is anyone..." I do.
Given the quality of virtually ever oil on the market today, my guess is that 90% of all automobiles will make it well beyond 200,000 miles sans lubrication related problems given normal use and adequate (indeed, even marginal) service no matter what brand or type of oil used. Big statement? Probably...I am used to sticking my neck out. As I stated before, I use synthetic because of my 'perception' of ultimate quality for MY vintage and racecar applications. Most all the rest of my stuff is still on Castrol. Engine use in high performance, high heat conditions demand the best...usually a quality synthetic. I don't use Redline (probably the best race specific lubricant generally availabe, IMO) in my racecar because it's a bit out of my 'feel good' budget (I am retired and SSI provides the largest chunk of $$$ for my vintage race efforts) and, I don't use Amsoil because I have fallen victim to their agressive advertising in the past...I appreciate your more moderate approach, however, overt sales efforts is strictly 'verboten' in these forums.
Ultimately it comes down to what you get for your buck! I am all in favor of using the best one can afford. I just don't confuse 'want' with 'need' if I can help it.
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
As far as "only a headgasket & a water pump" please remember you are comparing a 77 Dodge to a 98.
The water pump bearing is most likely inferior quality, made in China, and the original headgasket was not engineered for the differences in thermal expansion between the aluminum cylinder head, and the cast iron block. The replacement headgasket was a mult-layered steel design, which seems to be holding up. Times change, so does production & engineering quality, all in the name of shaving off a few cents here & there. The other problem I had with this Dodge was when they went to "cab-forward" design, they gave no thought of beefing up the front brakes until a design change in 2002. I was getting approximately 15,000 miles per brake change. I actually got more life from the synthetic oil than the front brake pads.
Due to the expense of new vehicles, I now make sure I do not skimp on the sundry items that make these vehicles run. I use the most expensive oil, and I use either Mercedes-Benz anti-freeze, or now I can find Zerex G05. I do not mind the extra cost, as it saves me lots of time & money down the road.
Russell Giuliano
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Rod,
I've always thought that true castor oil is the "best" oil around, at least for film strength. Not too practical for pass. car use, but it's required for many high-perf. 2 stroke model airplane engines.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
When running methanol in my Bultaco, I used 5 gal to one pint of de-gummed castor oil. Never had a problem at that mix. I suppose it would still work today---for someone a lot younger than me...I'm too old for more broken bones.
All this is what I ment when I said "(almost)"---I'll bet that todays reclaimed/recycled oil at Wal*Mart is as good as most any top line motor oil of 1955.
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Crankcase oils make inferior 2-T lubricants, and vice-versa. I think model airplane engines usually employ an otto-cycle as well. It may be that alcohol-fueled model airplane engines don't generate enough heat to activiate conventional AW chemistries, and this also may mitigate castor's serious varnish-forming tendencies as well. In any case, it's hardly considered 'da bomb' these days for crankcase apps.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
One of the outstanding differences between synthetics and natural petroleum distillate base lube oils is precisely their distillation range. Narrow, ~30oC, for the synthetics due to their being almost pure chemicals vs ~ 200oC for regular extracted/hydrofinished base oils.
This characteristic (besides the additive and blending formulations) may help to explain their differing mechanical and thermal behaviour in engines.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Some of them are. They are true diesels that don't make much HP/cu. in. But it "team racing" (F2C) it's amazing how far they can fly with so little fuel.
But the rest of 2 stroke model engines don't run on gasoline-they use methanol/nitro. These fuels can use so much spark advance that it was discovered back around WW2 that a "glow plug" worked fine. The glowing wire ignites the fuel far earlier than what gas would tolerate.
The really high HP model engines REQUIRE castor oil instead of "synthetics".
Interesting that methanol will dissolve large % of castor, but nitromethane won't. But, when running more than ~45-50%NM if ~10% nitrobenzene was added it all mixed fine.
Then it was discovered that NB can cause cancer, so it fell out of favor. They even had to take it out of Hoppe's #9!
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Back on topic---I would find it interesting to poll the members that still don't like synthetics and their reasons.
I personally do not use synthetics in every case, as I have posted, but I do percieve them to be superior and cost effective in certain applications.
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
The new stuff contains ammonia or some kind of ammonia compound. NH3 is just about the worst thing to have around copper alloys. I wonder if it has caused SCC of cartridge cases.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I use the synthetic for that little extra film strength in the race engine...and still change it after a max of two weekends...leave no stone unturned sorta deal, hey?
Bottom line, I have never had a bottom end problem traceable to the failure of the lubricating oil I was using, never in 50 years! Maybe I am too anal about all this?
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
This is the reason I don't "push" the synthetic product. Opinions on motor oil are very strong and varied. It is easier to get someone to change their political party.
Russell Giuliano
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I'd use the 3 free oil changes at the dealer, both to use what you paid for in the purchase price as well as flushing the engine and giving the rings time to seat properly.
Personal preference - I've been using Royal Purple for about 12 years mostly because the synthetic stays put on the bearings better the distilled dinosaurs when vehicles are not driven on a regular basis.
Sidebar: Hey Rod - remember the great debate on that swirl gadget for the air cleaner - turbo something - with all the alleged HP boost? There's another one out that I saw at the PRI show last week that splits the throttle plates to induce swirl. The gear mechanism is huge. They had a patent and some innovation award. Think I'll keep the cash instead.
"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Aside---What happend to that gal that was on your circuit? All I read lately is on Katherene Legg and Donna Patrick from road racing.
To All...I have not been adding my standard tag line but, lest anyone forget...
Believe only half of what you see and none of what you read.
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I found the flyer www.cyclocharger.com
I can just see this on my small block chevy Hilborn injection......
Ol' P.T.'s saying needs to be updated .. more like 10 born every minute today!
Erin Crocker ran with us for a few races. Nice girl, decent driver. Becca Anderson was here a year or 2 ago, just read that she got a World of Outlaw ride for 2006. Thankfully the other female (nicknamed "The Weapon") retired before she killed herself or one of us.
I'm a crash test dummy for the HANS device now - they send you a neat t-shirt (current value $25000 in wrecked parts) if you make the Customer Testimonial page on their website. www.hansdevice.com
Mine's NOT the one going out over the fence - he got on TV while Speed Channel left 5 laps before I set the altitude record!
"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
Merry Christmas and sorry for sorta hijacking the thread.
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
My old engines have become troublesome due to valve guide wear, timing chain and gear wear, and gunk and varnish build up.
The latest SAE spec includes a minimum viscosity at a temp higher than the standard ~ 100 C, which make me think that's important. I'd like to think Synthetics' better VI means higher viscosity in hot spots like valve guides, and lower volatility means more (some) oil remaining there too. I hope it makes my timing chain last forever too.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I have seen all sorts of problems described by mechanics as "rings not seated," ranging from unexplained white vapors from the CCV (occasionally due to a turbo problem) to drivers' reports of high oil consumption to "dusted" rings. It is often the case that replacing the PRL sets is the third thing a mechanic tries when fixing an unexplained problem, that it's done in conjunction with other repairs, and that the description he writes down is "rings not seated." The efficacy of such repairs is (as you might expect) a crapshoot.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I still start up on non synthetic, in reality, to flush out all the 'junk' as much as anything. I did start one engine a while back on Mobil 1 (inadvertantly) and it ran in the same as any other, leaving me to ponder the inherited "wisdom" of the "never use synthetic to start as it will not allow the rings to properly seat" logic.
I have reached a crossroad in my lubricant usage...I have switched to using race specific motor oil--- Red Line synthetic in the race engines...hang the expense. Perhaps you really can teach an old dog...
Rod
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
While the jury is still out on the ring seating issue, I like to clean out all the junk (stray silicone, lint, bugs, the neighbor's cat) that somehow finds its way into the engine during assembly. After a filter change, I typically run one or 2 races on the oil then switch to the Royal Purple synthetic.
"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
I have started new engines on synthetic with no problems.
Also I normally start on mineral oil, and run in the cam and bed the rings, then change oil and filter. Reason for mineral oil is economic only as 30 min fast idle and 1 or 2 minutes of short burst power runs is a very short service interval for the oil, hence it is a waste of good synthetic oil.
Regards
eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil
RE: Synthetic Engine Oil