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In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
I’m sure this is very basic for most of you, but I need to bounce a simple methodology off of you for a sanity check. Up to now my SolidWorks experience has been with part models & bottom up assemblies with very little if any in-context parts. Below is a methodology that I am experimenting with utilizing layout sketches and skeleton planes, but I have run into a snafu.
1.    I am creating an assembly model of a progressive die with 3 stations. I created a layout sketch in the assembly model containing three sketch blocks (one for each die block station) the sketch blocks are related to each other to keep them in position. The Layout Sketch in constructed on the Top Plane. This is because the sketch blocks are of the top view of the die block plates.
2.    In the assembly I select “Insert Component New Part” to create in-context part when it asks me to select the face or plane I select the Top Plane, this puts me in sketch mode for the new in-context part.
3.    I then select one of the sketch blocks in my assembly layout sketch, convert entities, and Extrude Boss Base to a skeleton plane I created for the plate thickness.

I repeat this process for all three stations in my assembly. So far all looks good in the assembly model. Top view, Front view, and Iso view look correct. Here is my problem: When I open any of the part models they are upside down and when I create a drawing and select one of the part models it comes in upside down. I know that in-context always assigns the Front Plane to the plane that I select when prompted when I create the new part, but I am baffled on how to work with this.

Please offer any suggestions if this methodology is flawed or can be improved upon??

Any help to straighten me out is greatly appreciated.
Sorry for the long post
Tom…

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Thanks for your replies so fast guys. I have read these threads but am still a little confused. I will experiment some more. I just want my in-context part top plane to be the same top plane as my assembly top plane.

CorBlimeyLimey in your ref thread you said you creates a blank part and insert it into the assembly and then all is ok, I don't quite understand this...please elaborate as it relates to my statement above

Scott, I downloaded your example files and they don't solve my lack of understanding. In your assembly, the Top plane is actually attached to the side of the plate not it's top. This makes SW standard views of the assembly unintuitive, especially with ISO views, where the assembly appears to be tipped up on its side. Maybe the actual plates in your example are indeed viewed correctly, the larger surface is the side and the narrow surface is the top. Scott I appreciate all of your help and its obvious that you are an expert, so I am in no way saying that your example is wrong, I just need to find a solution that works for me. I'm sure it’s staring me in the face, but I don't see it yet.
running fast, but miles to go!!
Tom..

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

When you pick the top plane to start your sketch on you, SW makes that the Front plane at the part part level.

You can make a quick test to test that theory.

Start an assembly
add a part
Pick the assembly top plane
make a sketch.
Open the part.

I tested that and that is how it works. if you want the Top plane of the part to be on the top plane of the assembly, you will need to pick the front plane instead of the top.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Scott, I think I got it man..my problem was just as you stated. I was picking the top plane at the prompt when creating incontext parts, I should be picking the Front plane. The reason I was doing that is because after picking the plane it would immediately put me in sketch mode where I selected my previously drawn layout sketch which was on the assembly top plane. It's so obvious to me now because of your help.

What I must do is Select the Front plane when creating in-context parts, but then immediately cancel out of sketch mode and select the top plane and start a new sketch. This way my previously drawn layout sketch will be converted to the top plane and my incontext part is on the front plane where it should be. Problem solved...
you guys are great

tom...

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

Glad that helped you understand the process better.

I don't like the building my top-down assemblies the way you are doing it, but my purpose was to make automated assemblies. Your Design intent may be different so this will work for you. But the way I list it in my FAQ is what I found to work exceptionally well for me.

Good luck!

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

tmalinski,
"What I must do is Select the Front plane when creating in-context parts, but then immediately cancel out of sketch mode and select the top plane and start a new sketch."

Make sure when you select the top plane, you are selecting the top plane of the active part, and not the top plane of the overall assembly.  It isn't a real big deal, but that is just another incontext reference that could cause issue down the road.

-Shaggy

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

And all this stuff could have been avoided if the creators of SolidWorks understood that the Z-axis convention is gravity and always is perpendicular to the top view.

I was on SolidWorks for a year before it was forcefully brought to the attention of the design group that we were all starting our parts with a sketch on the Top plane, but when it went to the CNC cutting program it took the Z-axis orientation as the top and the parts were coming in sideways. Tghe programmers had to revolve the part and it was a complicated process thet often ended in a crash and had to be redone. So we got used to designing parts "sideways" so they could be machined in the correct orientation.

I love the software, but that has always been a sore point with me.

End of rant. Sorry for the hijack.

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

wgchere, Good point.
I have always created assy's btm-up. All parts are created in the orientation they are machined. This makes life easier for the end user...CAM, etc. It also has less problems and headaches, the problem in this thread for example.

Chris
Systems Analyst
SolidWorks/PDMWorks 05
AutoCAD 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Shaggy, I tested your tip, but found that I can't do that because the top plane of the active part is not parallel with the top plane of my assembly layout sketch, preventing me from being able to convert it active part sketch. I can select the front plane of the active part but then I'm right back where I started with mixed up views. I guess I must select the top plane from my assembly for the active part sketch.

Do you agree?

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Shaggy, I'm sorry you are right. When selecting the active parts top plane everything is as it shoud be. My mistake man thanks for the tip...
tom..

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

tmalinski ... The reason I create the part outside of the assy, is to ensure the parts origin & main reference planes are located at a sensible place (centre, corner, end) within the parts geometry. Once created, the part is inserted & mated into the assy using the main ref planes. Any geometry is then created or in-contexted where needed.

With the above mentioned Top Down methods, the parts geometry may end up nowhere near the origin or main reference planes.

To paraphrase, basically what I am doing is a combination Bottom Up/Top Down design. After inserting & mating the part into an assy, I in-context any geometry which needs it. This eliminates the "In-place" mate & ensures logical part orientation when viewed separately. The In-place mate is very limited in how it can be edited, whereas normal mates can be edited to other types of mate if required. (Coincident to Tangent or Concentric for example).

This is purely a personal preference. The first SW project I worked on involved assembling & mating parts which had been created in another system, then imported & run through the Feature Recognition module. It was a nightmare! Some parts were so far away from the origin, that when the "Zoom to fit" view was used, all that could be seen was the origin in one corner & the part as a tiny dot in another corner. Also when zoomed in on the part, it was at some weird angle which bore no relationship to anything. Since then, I tend to be a bit anal about origin & plane placement.


Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

I follow a similar method to CorBlimeyLimey.  The "in-place" mate is nothing but a headache.

-Shaggy

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

CBL reply is alot like my FAQ and how I describe it there.

Regards

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

Scott ... It's not suprising it's similar in some ways to your FAQ. It was you who got me sold on using planes in feature creation & assy mating. After the 'first-job-nightmare' (in SW2000) I mentioned above, I was looking for better ways of creating models. In late 2003 I happened across this forum & read your posts regarding planes, & have been using that method ever since. thumbsup2


Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Thanks for everyones help on this it sure is educational. As far as using a combination of "Bottom up and Top down" to keep the parts Origin behaved I like this Idea. However, earlier in my thread I explained that I am using an assembly Layout Sketch containing blocks for each plate in a progressive die design, and then selecting the blocks for my in-context parts. The reason I'm doing this is because 8 other designers in my dept are using 2D AutoCad and creating similar Top Views in their assembly layouts which are then broken out and detailed as required. I find that using a SW assembly layout sketch is very similar to our AutoCad methodology and goes a long way when trying to expand SW usage in an AutoCad environment. This approach also lets me bring in old 2d Autocad layout drawings and with very little editing I can use the geometry for my SW assembly Sketch and in-contect parts.
Maybe somebody has yet a different approach for Prog die design barring purchasing an add-on package.

tom..

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

IS that geometry that you are talking about (Not the assembly layout sketch) is that used to make the component? If so, then why don't you make the part using that geometry place it in the assembly and follow the FAQ? That would be the same thing and you can use the assembly layout sketch to assembly and in-context the component.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Scott, I don't quite understand your suggestion! yes I could easily use the autocad geometry to make individual parts and then insert the parts into the assembly using skeleton planes for positioning using bottom up assembly. But then how does an assembly layout sketch come in to play? The reason I like the assembly layout sketch is the entire prog die 2d geometry is in one sketch in one place. If I simply make individual parts from portions of the autocad geometry don't I loose the "all in one sketch" mentality? Maybe I'm putting too much emphasis on "all in one sketch" because of old autocad habbits. I'm sorry if I dont understand this yet but I feel like I'm getting closer.
tom..

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

So you are building the entire assembly and the components with just sketches?

If you make the parts then place them in the assembly you can place both mates and in-contexted relationships to each of the components.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
I'm only using the assembly sketch for the basic part creations, which include all the plate’s lengths, widths, and most cavities. Some of the holes that can be extruded from the top view sketch also, although using feature patterns for holes is probably better than sketch patterns. Remember also, that in AutoCad we use blocks extensively to "protect" the geometry from accidental changes. I thought using blocks in a SW assembly layout sketch gives me a similar level of protection for the basic structure of each plate. From that point forward I use conventional SW features to finish each in-contexted part, and then create a drawing of each.
I think from all of this it simply sounds like in-context parts are somewhat problematic and I should avoid locking into this if not necessary. If that is true then my only challenge is one of perception with the other AutoCad designers. If I forgo the complete layout sketch it’s tough to see the big picture quickly. Also, my boss likes to review the entire layout prior to modeling anything. I personally do not have an issue with bottom up assembly and is what I have been using for the last year for small modeling projects. Assembly layout sketches just seemed like a good idea because it is similar to our 2d AutoCad methodology. It all boils down to time. If I can submit a basic modeled assembly for review as fast as the AutoCad guys do, then my boss will be happy. I suppose I could draw the complete assembly sketch just for review, and then I could make individual parts from it as I start the modeling process. The only problem with that is I’ll have many copies of the same sketch, one for each part model. Any thoughts???

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

Why model an assembly in 2D with a 3D tool?

Those that are running AutoCAD are profeicent in the software. Those that are new to SW and trying to perform the same process is naturally going to be slower.  But once you get your technique down then you will be surprised how much faster it will go. Not to mention the look of the product while you are building. You will see things you never seen in AutoCAD and those things could be benifical to all of you.

In-contexting or top-down design is great for automation and those that need to use geometry to make other Geometry. You can break those relationships with a single icon in the assembly toolbar. "No sketch relations". This away you can use other geometry, but it will not be in-contexted to the geometry you picked.

It sounds like you are making it twice in SW and once in AutoCAD... that just seems wrong to me.

Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

(OP)
Thanks for your input Scott.
You asked “Why model an assembly in 2D with a 3D tool”
Well isn’t that what a Layout Sketch is? It may seem from these threads that I am duplicating 2d processes or hung up on AutoCad, but that’s not really the case. Nothing is cast in stone yet. When I inquire about a process or say that I’m doing this or that it just means that I’m currently testing the waters to understand the upside and downside of doing something a particular way. In the mean time I am slowly developing a methodology that wont sink when the time comes.  I have been given the responsibility to pave the way for our company to transition into SW for major tooling projects. Also mixed into this is the reality of dealing with major medical and automotive companies that want to give us a mix of solid model and Autocad geometry of their product for us to tool up in progressive dies. Also our design staff of 10 design engineers has its fare share of doubting Thomas’s as to SW capabilities for what we do. So a new SW methodology needs to be somewhat bullet proof. Most of our tooling designs are complex including reconstruction of our customer’s parts in SW and development of a ribbon layout for a prog die that will have 300 to 400 components. Plus secondary tooling, inspection fixtures, and other related stuff. We are always on a tight timeframe to complete the project. Almost all of our projects are one of a kind. Only design concepts are copied from one project to another. During this learning phase I we want to keep design methodologies similar wherever possible as long as it makes sense. This is why I thought assembly layout sketches was a step in the right direction, because this is how we start most of our AutoCad designs. We are also going to select a job or two that is completely finished and try to replicate it in SW to see what pitfalls we encounter.
Again, Scott I appreciate yours and others help. I personally love SW, 3d is very cool.

Tom..

RE: In-Context Parts in drawing upside down

You are not the only one that has timelines and are working on unique files and assemblies. Your process sounds a lot like Molding, except it's Die design. I took one year of Die Design and Injection Molding before I changed majors to Industrial Drafting\Product Designer. So I understand what you are doing and I understand the process of making them. Since I went to Industrial Drafting\Product Designer I was required to design both Dies and Molds.

Layout sketching and the way you are setting it up sounds a lot like ACAD. With that in mind you could set it up in ACAD and import into a part file in SW. Would be just as fast probably. smile But making SW the leader in your company will come down to you trying new things and you working with your VAR to make happen. If there are more possiblities of Seat sales in your company your VAR will work with you to help achieve this with you... or if they just care they will help.

Layout sketches will work, but I don't like to make things twice. You could take those blocks you get and import them into individual parts (don't make into bodies yet) Take each of those parts into an assembly and assembly the part sketches in the Assy sketch. The ease of you making those part sketches into a 3D will cut the size down tremendously versus redrawing or coping and pasting them.

Maybe I have missed your procedure on this, but that's the way I understand your process so far and the above would be the way I would attack that.

Best Regards,

Scott Baugh, CSWP
www.scottjbaugh.com
FAQ731-376

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