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Oh the point
2

Oh the point

Oh the point

(OP)
On various occassions I have heard people calling 0.08 as "O point O eight". Is it a popular thing amongst engineers? I wonder how much more effort will be required to "zero" which I prefer over O.

Ciao.

RE: Oh the point

It gets weird when someone verbally provides an alpha numeric sequence and calls 0, O. e.g. ANZ3420O6BHZ400OO.

RE: Oh the point

I use the O-pronunciation all the time, especially when talking about decimals (i.e. "oh-four-eight" is .048 thick sheet or tube).

In a case like rnd2's, I would try to make a bit more of a distinction.. The extreme is "Alpha-November-Zulu-3-4-2-zero-October...."

I've never used "naught" to indicate zero (did I spell that right?)

Similarly, I don't like it when people use fonts or have handwriting that makes it impossible to tell. My math teacher in high school was a comp. sci major and all of his zeros had lines through them. That seems to have rubbed off on me.

RE: Oh the point

Had a lecturer once, who’d loses the head if I said O instead of zero, after enough reprimands for him I no longer it. I now find myself pulling others on it.

RE: Oh the point

I had an instructor that used "naught" all the time.  I picked up the habit while in his class, but have since lost it.  Maybe it's time to start using it again.  I'm guilty of saying oh, but try very hard to say zero when I mean zero.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

RE: Oh the point

Navy training broke me of the "oh-for-zero" habit.  Later reinforced by flight school.

Quote (AynRand):

'A' is 'A'

RE: Oh the point

I use "oh" for zero except in alphanumeric sequences, and only draw a line through it in the same situation.  Hell, I grew up on a typewriter that used a lower-case L for a one; I couldn't sweat that kind of stuff unless context required it.  

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Oh the point

I use 'zero' all the time for the numerical value. I don't remember ever using 'nought' as a numerical value.

I guess I must wind up folks on the phone when I give them a part number and they read it back to me as 'O'. I just tell 'em that I said 'zero', not 'O' and they say 'I know' and I mutter "Then why say 'O', dummy...".

If the zero is contained in a part code, using the wrong character can totally bugger things up, especially when it is being relayed through people to whom it is merely a string of characters. Perhaps I'm just picky.

----------------------------------
  Start each day with a smile. Get it over with.

RE: Oh the point

I used 'O' for vocalizing the zero all of my life and never gave it another thought. Somehow I never had trouble knowing the differnce between the letter O and the number O.

Only in recent years have I started saying zero because the 'O' was confusing to some non-English speakers that I commumicate with.

Now when I slip-up and say '4 zero 2' to my American buddies, they usually reply, "d'ya mean '4-O-2'?

NozzleTwister
Houston, Texas

RE: Oh the point

I use zero not O. One is a number the other a letter. Why would you want to say a number for a letter?

In giving a long string of numbers and letters I would use the phonetic alphabet. Alpha, Bravo, Charlie, Delta etc comes from experience working for the military.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Oh the point

Simply put, oh is a letter, and zero is a digit.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Oh the point

The only real point in using "Oh" instead of "Zero" is that it allows you to describe that insanely early start time in the morning as "Oh No Hundred"

A.

RE: Oh the point

Which is just before Oh Too Early

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Oh the point

I've always liked Oh Dark Thirty.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Oh the point

My most serious gripe is when 9.18, for example, is read out as "Nine point nineteen" usually by TV types.

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Oh the point

especially when it should be nine point eighteen?!

I have to confess to using all 3 forms:
telephone numbers start oh-one or oh-seven or whatever
decimals are nought point nought...
and alpha-numeric strings contain the letter oh and the number zero.

Like nozzletwister, I always know the difference!

RE: Oh the point

(OP)
Good pun kchayfie!

Ciao.

RE: Oh the point

2
Umm.. as a person to whom english is a 2nd languge, I'd just like to point out a few things, when you're talking to your colleague who's mothertongue isn't English, and will hopefully help your irritation with the ignorant bugger on the other side of the line:

1. Avoid Zulu, November and such. African names and months in our numerical expressions can severely shock us!

2. Forget "oh". It's a sigh, not a number. At best, it's a letter "O". Not 0. We'll go for "zero" or "nil". Brits, refrain from "naught". We'll try and apply a logical "NOT" operation at this point and have a severe Illegal Operation and system failiure...

3. oh-twenty-four will in some countries be understood as 0.24, NOT 0.024. I don't have to explain how disastrous THAT mistake can be. Don't be lazy up to the point where you feel pronouncing the word "point" will put you into a state of evere hypoglicemia.

4. "Nine point eighteen" is widespread way of reading decimal numbers with fewer digits in Slavic languages, but best read it to your Slav colleague as "nine point one eitht". And make 0.024 sound "zero point zero two four", even if they'll go for "zero point zero twenty-four".

5. Be VERY careful with Germans, Austrians and Slovenians, and go slow and easy. They say "four-twenty" for 24, not "twenty-four". Give them time to re-process the information. (There might be more nations who speak in this way, I'm aware of only Slovenian and German-based languages being such).

Don't be lazy, please, it's only words! And we'll be grateful for your toruble!

RE: Oh the point

I tend to use zero with the exceptions of time, money and small pen sizes (where I have used "ought", "double ought", etc).
I haven't had to refer to pen sizes though since I was on the board.  As a result, they have all dried up:)

RE: Oh the point

I once recited a telephone number over the telephone to a friend as, "565-seventeen thirty two."  He became quite perturbed and said, "do you mean 565-one seven three two."

I can understand that it would bother him because is he can be a wee bit hyper.

My response when someone recites a number or alpha-numeric in that form is to play it back.  I might say seventeen thirty two or one seven three two depending on my mood and need to clarify but usually now I try to clarify at the outset.

RE: Oh the point

It's amazing, but I seems to have no problems with the number zero.

RE: Oh the point

I personally do not wish to prohibit pronouncing "oh" for zero.  Certain circumstances, it just sounds weird saying zero.

For example:
Beverly Hills Nine Zero Two One Zero
Double "Zero" Seven
Four Zero Five Freeway

RE: Oh the point

==> Certain circumstances, it just sounds weird saying zero.
Those examples clearly show that only in California, would being correct sound weird. smile

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Oh the point

Quote (TurbulentFluid):

Avoid Zulu, November and such. African names and months in our numerical expressions can severely shock us!

Once you get over the shock, begin educating yourself w.r.t. the phonetic alphabet (A= "Alpha", B = "Bravo", etc.)  It's not just a U.S. slang phenomenon, it's used internationally (air traffic control, international time standards, NATO communications).

RE: Oh the point

CajunCenturion, I never thought about that!  So true...

RE: Oh the point

I am, thankfully, educated about Zulu and Mr. Bravo by the ways of Hollywood.
I was merely trying to point out that, if we, non-english speakers, took time to learn the ENTIRE language - which American people hardly ever do and Brits and other English speaking nations are hardly ever any better - you MIGHT consider to make it easier for us to communicate by avoiding things they DON'T teach you in your average language school, which DOES include military slang.

RE: Oh the point

If you are a technical professional, than your English education task is double: everyday English and technical English.

I find I am in the same situation learning Mandarin.  Everyday words for family conversation are easily found in any dictionary.  However, try looking up "draft" (in the sense of mold tooling)!

My father had the reverse situation: most of his professional life he worked in English, but he was a native German.  He never worked as an engineer in Germany (though he did get his undergraduate degree there), and would get lost when trying to discuss technical things in his native language.  Yet he wrote volumes of technical papers in English.

RE: Oh the point

TurbulentFluid - Nobody knows the entire English language.  The language is far too broad.  The language is rife with local dialects, whether you're in the Scottish highlands, London, New York, the American midwest, California, Queensland, or Sydney, and everywhere in between.  Further, English is a living language, constantly changing and evolving based on how it's used.

==> I am, thankfully, educated about Zulu and Mr. Bravo by the ways of Hollywood.

Hollywood?  The phoenetic alphabet was first adopted by the  International Telecommunication Union in 1927.  It has been used for air and sea navigation by international organizations ever since, although it has gone through some revisions.  Adjustment have been made to the words and sounds to increase its international compatibility and usefulness.  It wasn't until World War II that the miliary, through the combined Allied forces, became involved in the standardization effort.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Oh the point

Umm... I wouldn't know, I wasn't around in 1927. I meant to say, I heard it in hollywood movies where they mimic the military language, otherwise I'd have no clue about it's existance...

As for dialects, idioms, blabbety-blab, yeah, every language has that, I meant standard language, of course, which is to be used in business / technical communication. And the word "entire" was a hyperbole, of course, yes I'm aware nobody can know the ENTIRE language specially since when you say "English language" you can only be laughed at, because there ISN'T such a standard language (or, more correctly, there's MANY of them - British, American, Australian, South African...).

THE TICK,
yup, I know what you mean... I have big problems finding technical expressions, and in my country no (useful) dictionaries were issued so I'm doomed to English-English ones... Not to mention slang and absolutely senseless words used for stuff in computer programs. I mean "loft" in Catia?

RE: Oh the point

I wasn't either, but I did learn about it in school.  It's a shame that you had to rely on Hollywood for education.  That's very dangerous because education, and factual accuracy, is not part of Hollywood's agenda.

Yes, English is a mess.  It is easy to see the problem, but it's tough problem nonetheless.  As you say, "I meant standard language, of course, which is to be used in business / technical communication.".  Yet, I'm sure we'd all agree with you when you say, "... because there ISN'T such a standard language (or, ... MANY of them)"

Interestingly enough, the phonetic alphabetic is one of, if not the most, internationally standardized aspect of English.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Oh the point

"thirty ought six" as in "A thirty ought six oughta fix his problem" was a phrase I used to hear in the deep south, usually used when referring to politicians (the peanut man from Rosedale in particular; i.e. a native Georgian I seem to recall), well not really "deep", Appalachia and the Piedmont. Further/deeper south and i needed an interpreter.
In that context, the "ought" is OK, I mean since I got used to hearing its use in the vernacular but it tends to great in any other number context.
Remember the debate about what we would end up calling the years 2000 to 2009? we seem to have had the lot suggested. I wonder what the final concensus on that is? (Don't answer here, if I think about it, I'll dig out the original post and revive it.)

JMW
www.ViscoAnalyser.com

RE: Oh the point

Turbulent:

Oddly enough, the big driver behind setting up a standardised phonetic alphabet was to ease communication between speakers of different languages.

Imagine you're on the phone to someone in Switzerland who's trying to read you a part number.  Somewhere in the middle, you hear a letter pronounced "vay".  Until you've worked out whether you're dealing with a French or German speaking Swiss, you can only guess whether that's "vay" for Victor or "vay" for Whiskee.

The IMO has a standardised series of names for the numerals as well.  If you really wanted to play it by the book, you would turn 0.94 into something like "figures ze-ro day-see-mal nine-er foe-er" (at which point, I guarantee that three listeners out of ten will hear the middle digit as "Nine-Oh")

A.

RE: Oh the point

When corrobarating a verbal message or if the message is urgent or otherwise important, I tend toward the phonetic alphabet and zero.  Otherwise it seems unnecessarily formal.

Today I inherently gave a verbal phone message using 4 oh 2 oh (4020)or some such 'oh' number and the recipient had no problemo understanding me but as I was reciting the oh's, I was thinking, 'I should be saying 4 zero 2 zero because the numbers he is to receive really are important to some people e.g. FAA(Federal Aneronautics Asssociation/Administration?) type folks and the guy who was receiving the number is in the Quality Control Dept. which makes him another likely suspect.

In a combat situation you certainly should be using the phonetic alphabet and zero else you have no clue to the meaning of the term team.  Fortunately engineering reports typically are typed for better clarity than verbal.

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