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Dealing with Androgenous First Names
4

Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Dealing with Androgenous First Names

(OP)
Lynn, Daryl, Pat, Bob, Flo, Viv, Fran...

Somehow Sean creeped in there, too.

Why don't these people put "Mr." or "Mrs." or "Ms." in front of their names?

It matters!

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

2
Why does it matter?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Would you give different answers to "Mr." or "Mrs." or "Ms."?


Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

It does make it more difficult to start a formal email to someone you haven't met.  I made the mistake of beginning an email to a Lynn Smith with "Ms. Smith," when Lynn was a man.  That was very early in my career.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

(OP)
ivymike hit nail on head.

In professional correspondance, I have the bad habit of addressing people I've never met by "Mr." or "Ms." accordingly, provided I know their first name.

Other than Darryl Hanna (female movie star), I "discovered" another female Darryl via e-mail.

I left out Gail (or Gayle), too.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names


It seem's that the US has no "real" formal writing standard, so formal writing here tends to follow the legal profession. It is most acceptable in the practice of law to begin a formal letter with:

Dear Lastnameonly,


... personally I think this style is slightly antagonistic, but it is acceptable.

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

If a person has emailed you with a signature of "Lynn Smith", that should signify that he/she wants to be referred to that way. There would have been nothing wrong with "Dear Lynn Smith" or even "Dear Lynn".


Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

"Dear M. Smith"
& pretend it was a typo.

Actually in email I never include a salutation.  Email is essentially a memo.  If I'm writing something kind of formal to someone I don't really know, I might start by introducing myself, but as far as I'm concerned, the To: header is all that's needed to address my recipient.

For a letter, if you really want to get the title right, call the person's company and find out.

http://www.lawsociety.sk.ca/Equity/GenderNeutGuide.PDF
recommends the "Dear Lynn Smith" approach.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

(OP)
I guess, but if it's the first time I am contacting the person or the first time I'm replying to the person, I prefer the cautious, respectful, professional approach.

...and that's the right thing to do. It's about manners.

What I find grossly unfair is the potential for embarassment. It is perfectly normal for an American to assume someone named Darryl, who isn't a Hollywood starlet, to be a male. When Darryl (who wasn't bright to begin with, I later discovered) wrote back (cc'd to everyone, too) to me with the "By the way, I am female" I wasn't embarassed, I was angry. It was bad enough I discovered her (at first I thought "his") incompetance regarding processing some funding request, but how in the world was I to know that someone with what's usually a man's first name isn't a man?

The mannerly thing to do is suck up the fact that unless someone's met you personally, they're going to associate your name with a male American human. Even President Clinton made this "mistake" when he presented an award to a WWII vet who was a man named "Gail." Sure, Bill should have been told ahead of time, but then again, it should be obvious to an American what's a typical American man's name vs. typical American woman's name.

The same goes with a man named "Lynn" or or "Sue."

And just for good measure, there is NOTHING sexist about this. In every spoken language I'm aware of (not that I'm fluent), there is a gender distinction that permeates the tongue. Why should American English be expected to be any different?

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Just because a common salutation is part of every spoken language, does not make it non-sexist. The fact that a salutation exists  is proof that it is  sexist/biased by trying to delineate the sexes & marital status.

But thats just my opinion. As I have stated in other threads, I have an intense dislike of titles.


Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

The bank where my wife and I do most of our financial transactions had a general form on which you were to check
Mr. Mrs. Ms. or Miss.

Because I'm ornery I asked what possible reason they would have to require this information (gender, and in the case of my wife marital status).

Their response was that without the title they wouldn't know what gender the client was (...if they had a unisex name). My reponse was - why should it matter? Would my wife have a better chance of getting a loan? Would I?

I think we should scrape the Mr, Ms thing completely. You want to know my gender - ask me.

There was an interesting paper presented (I've lost the link) where sex based language differences were replaced with race based, made for an interesting comparison.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Chris--that's Chapter 8 in Douglas Hofstadter's Metamagical Themas, entitled "A Person Paper on Purity in Language".

Here it is:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html

It's what changed my mind about that standard language is not sexist just because it's standard.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Hg, Star for bringing that to our attention.

It's an excellent example of just how powerful satire can be in exposing flaws in the way we look at issues like this.

LewTam Inc.
Petrophysicist, Leading Hand, Natural Horseman, Prickle Farmer, Crack Shot, Venerable Yogi.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Quote:


HgTX
Why does it matter?

CorBlimeyLimey
Would you give different answers to "Mr." or "Mrs." or "Ms."?

Actually, it shouldn't matter, until you need to refer to them in the 3rd party when corresponding with someone else, i.e. "he", "she", "him" or "her". You have to know this, because you can't use "they" forever, and you can never use "it"!

I recently had an email exchange with an engineer in Italy named Suzzi. I ASS-U-MEd it was a female engineer. When discussing things with Suzzi's boss, I mentioned "her", and was corrected... and embarassed. Suzzi is apparently a male name in Italy.
Who'd 'a thunk it.

Eng-Tips: Help for your job, not for your homework  Read FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Yeah, we were having that third-person problem in a meeting the other day - there was a guy named Chandra who wasn't present, and when someone said that Chandra was going to do something-or-other, people started wondering when it would be done, what would be needed, etc...  I dodged the problem myself when I asked "what does, uh, Chandra need from us to get started?"  The first person to ask when "she" would complete the task got corrected... and the third person to make the same mistake had about half the room jump down his throat.  

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

One can get away with "they" pretty well, actually.  

But if one doesn't know, there's nothing wrong with saying, "Forgive my really dumb question, but I've never met Chandra and I'm not familiar with the name.  Is that a him or a her?"

The more we deal with people from other countries and cultures, the less we can assume about people just from their names.  The original proposition, that it's rude for people whose names don't obviously indicate their gender not to mark themselves with "Mr." or "Ms.", to the extent that it should be taken seriously at all, only makes sense in a culture that has common use of gender-specific titles.  Not all do.  If we were dealing with academics, it would be Professor Chang and Doctor Smith and nary a gender indicator to be had anywhere.  Surely one shouldn't demand that Dr. Consuelo Patel switch to Ms. Consuelo Patel just to spare the sensitive among us from the horror of pronoun error.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

If only calling an individual "they" didn't make my four remaining hairs stand on end.  I suppose one can get away with adding arbitrary apostrophe's too, but you won't catch me doing it (again).

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

I know it seems redundant in places but what is wrong with just using the name in place of the pronoun when in doubt?

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

I must admit that the singular 'they' is growing on me.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

You make a good point HgTx.
I notice that for instance in Mexico, a lot of the engineers I deal with use the title "Ing." (short for Ingeniero) in front of their names just like Doctors and Professors do here in the US. So I have seen correspondences that go something like "... and then Ing. Ramirez expressed his concerns, to which Ing. Covello agreed." Even in a very gender specific Latin based culture like Mexico, that trumps the gender addressing issue. Unfortunately, we have no such convention in American English, so we get stuck with gender specific terms or awkward work-arounds.

But what if they are trades-persons or not professionals of any sort? Do we then say Elec. Jones, Pbr. Smith, Sec. Wilson, or Bum Anderson? That could get really cumbersome. Mr. and Ms. is, IMHO, a decent "common courtesy" compromise to facilitate communication in general across language and cultural platforms. I have experienced several correspondences from Europe where I was asked right up front if I or a co-worker were male or female. I have since started signing my correspondences to people who don't know me as "Mr.".

It also solves another side issue I have noticed in my international dealings, that being the convention of first and last names. Not everyone does it the same way we do, and if they were to identify themselves with a Mr. or Ms. moniker, it would also let us know how they prefer to be addressed.

Signed,
Mr. Jraef.

PS. It still looks funny to me, makes me think my father has signed the letter!

Eng-Tips: Help for your job, not for your homework  Read FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Some of us don't like titles.  I have no reason to sign my name "M. HgTX" if I have no desire to be addressed as such.

I've had college professors that called everyone by their last name.  I kinda dug it.  I'm more used to seeing men called by their last names than women, but there's no reason that should be the case.

And if I'm working in print rather than in live speech, I will often just use last names.  Less ambiguous than first names, but not too formal for email.  

Here's something that I see all too often--men get referred to by last name and women by first name.  I've been guilty of this myself (see my second paragraph above).  And it's an arguably sexist practice--"Western" grammatical culture equates formality with respect (e.g., "tu" vs. "vous"), and calling women by a more familiar form of address than that used for men is at some level a lack of respect.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Quote:

if they were to identify themselves with a Mr. or Ms. moniker, it would also let us know how they prefer to be addressed.
... by not  using the Mr. or Ms. moniker, they are  letting you know their preference!


Helpful SW websites  FAQ559-520
How to get answers to your SW questions  FAQ559-1091

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

2
In any case of gender confusion i would assume that the most common gender associated with the name is the correct one. i.e. I know more girls named Sue than boys named Sue.

This gets a little harder with Chris and Robin as they tend to split a little more equally. In those cases the tie breaker goes to the person being male since the profession is still male dominated.

I would simply play the odds in any case. If it was important then I’d take other steps to determine the gender of the person by either googling their name or asking someone on the side. (A quick phone call to their secretary or receptionist can set the record straight and may if the person finds out that you took the trouble earn you some brownie points.)

I would think that most males named Bev would be used to the error and would correct it in a private manner. i.e. a single precipitant return e-mail politely correcting the error.

I would gain knowledge of a person’s character by the way that they corrected the error. Someone sending me a short return e-mail saying “Although my name is Carol I am male like the actor Carol O’Conner.”  would rate higher that someone sending out a reply to all telling me to “Smarten up because Carol is a man’s name as well.”

It maters because people want to feel that they matter as individuals.

If you don’t take the time to get to know something as basic as a person’s gender then do you really care about them and their problem that you are selling a solution to or are you simply interested in their money?

Personal interactions and considerations are the all important lubricant for the machinery of interpersonal relationships. It is these relationships that are the main mechanism by which work gets done in our profession as in many others.

And besides it is simply polite to take the time to be considerate of someone else’s feelings.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

In a notable case of name/gender confusion, I once had a female secretary (I think we call them administrative assistants now, don't we?) named Louise.

At the time I did business with the owner of a manufacturing firm in Spain named Luis.

Once Luis had tried to pull something over on me, and in expressing my disgust and displeasure at his maneuver, I muttered, obviously louder than I intended to, "Luis, you dirty dog" to which Louise came bursting into my office begging to know what she had done to elicit such a derogatory statement.

I never really knew if she fully accepted my explanation and apologies.

rmw

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

I have to deal with this problem a lot when writing to people in e.g. Finland or in Asia, you just can't tell what's the gender from the name, and quite simply write "Dear Mrs or Mr so-and-so". The alternative is to just give the person a call.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

I was under the impression he, him etc should be used if you don't know whether someone is male or female.  Once you know someone is female you should use she, her etc.  He and him is both male and neutral.

I have often seen letters addressed as;

FAO: Jane Smith.

Dear Sir,

...

Which I believe is gramatically correct, but doesn't half wind up the ladies.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

rcooper--
Neutral masculine still be officially correct in many textbooks, but that view is changing.  Someone brought this up earlier in the thread but I'll repeat the link here:
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/purity.html
for an interesting view on language neutrality or lack thereof.

Either way, "Dear Sir" to someone KNOWN to be female is just plain incorrect.

Hg



Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names


The Aussies have the right idea - call everyone "Mate"

I simply start emails with "Good morning" since the address should get it to the right person. If titles (Mr, Dr etc) are an issue with someone, they just get over it.

"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

epoisses:

I had the problem that I made the mistake after I had talked to the person (I thought he was female)!  I never really got a good handle on how he took that.

Dave

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

Ouch!

OK then here is the definitive answer to the problem:
Just call the general phone number (reception) of the company and ask them very simply if person XYZ is a man or a woman - they'd be glad to assist. They can also give you the correct spelling, any titles, the correct phone and fax number, email address...
Somebody with an androgenous first name or a complicated surname will be glad to see that you did your best to get it right the first time.

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

There's an Epson commercial out now that shows a guy's girlfriend ripping up their photos after she finds a phone number of someone named Kelly. She then hears a message from Kelly (a man) confirming their tickets to the basketball game (or something)... Luckily she can reprint the photos!

On a similar note, a former girlfriend's father's name is Leslie. I thought it was her mom's name on the call display! Luckily I caught on before I met them...

RE: Dealing with Androgenous First Names

rcooper___

FAO: Jane Smith.

Dear Sir,


I was taught, along time ago I admit, that formal business leters to a company where addressed :

FAO Mr, Mrs or Miss ( No Ms then) X

Dear Sirs,

The Dear Sirs refering to the company which was masculine not the individual.

I know this is changing  but I still find myself doing it.

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