ôshallö how do you use it?
ôshallö how do you use it?
(OP)
When I started working in defense companies, I had to read thru mil specs and one of the repetitive words that would be used is “shall”. To my understanding you use shall when you want the person to do something like you shall use this epoxy, or you shall use this screw…etc. Versus if you do not want this person to do something then you use “will not” like you will not use this epoxy, or you will not use this screw…etc. But, every once and awhile I would see “shall not”, which is confusing to me. Is this used correctly in this form?
Any comments would be appreciated?
Thanks guys
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane





RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
Well the other day I was reading thru some specs and it was peppered with “shell not”. When I see “shall” my brains says yes you can do that, then when I see the “not” my brain trips on itself and I have to re-read the sentence to make sure if I can do it or not. I guess the ‘shall” is a flag to indicate what you can do and “will not” is the flag for don’t do this. But when it is combined, is that correct?
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
To complicate it further, if you are in first person and declarative mood, you should use 'will'. However, in first person imperative mood, 'shall' is the better choice. In second and third person it is the opposite; 'shall' should be used in declarative mood, and 'will' in the imperative.
That being said, not many people pay much attention to either of these rules anymore, and so 'will' seems to be gaining momentum in all persons, tenses, and moods.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
A star for you…
So in the second and third person “shall” is to declare and “will” is to express control, but in the same document should “shall” and “shall not” be used?
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
Man after reading that, I did not know that “shall” and “will” were a complicated set of words.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
There is nothing wrong with using 'shall' or 'shall not'.
If you really want to confuse, use 'shan't', the contraction of 'shall' and 'not'.
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
The pattern I like is "shall" or "must" for requirements, and "will" for a prediction. I've seen a number of specs that use "shall" for what the other party is being asked to do, and "will" for what the party writing the spec will do; "will" works there as a predictive statement because the specwriting entity has control over what they will do but not what their contractor will do. So a statement like "The contractor will not cross the big yellow line" is simply rendered false as soon as the contractor crosses the big yellow line.
The pattern Tobalcane mentions about "shall" for positive and "will not" for negative is completely new to me and makes no sense. (Not that language has to follow logic, but the modern "shall/will" distinction usually does for me.)
Tobalcane, do you have a written source giving this rule?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
A wise author will put a paragraph at the beginning of their document explaining what they have done, and how the word "shall" is to be interpreted.
We use "shall" to indicate a condition which is mandated by the specification and "shall not" to indicate a condition which is prohibited. "Will" and "will not" are used to provide information about a condition which, although expected, is not the responsibility of either of the parties to the contract, or will not result in a breach of the specification or contract if it does not turn out to be the case.
In ordinary (as opposed to Mil-Speak) language, I think CajunCenturion is spot-on.
A.
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
thread1010-91279
Ciao.
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
No no no, these are specs we are talking about. You can't use plain language in specs. People might understand your intent...
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?
Nope I have no specific rule to point to on how to use “shall” and “will not”, but now I have a better understanding on how to use these words.
Everybody,
Thanks for your inputs!
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: ôshallö how do you use it?