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ôshallö how do you use it?
5

ôshallö how do you use it?

ôshallö how do you use it?

(OP)


When I started working in defense companies, I had to read thru mil specs and one of the repetitive words that would be used is “shall”.  To my understanding you use shall when you want the person to do something like you shall use this epoxy, or you shall use this screw…etc.  Versus if you do not want this person to do something then you use “will not” like you will not use this epoxy, or you will not use this screw…etc.  But, every once and awhile I would see “shall not”, which is confusing to me.  Is this used correctly in this form?

Any comments would be appreciated?

Thanks guys

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

My understanding is that "shall" means "you will do a,b,c,etc." Apparently, it's the strongest language one can use, akin to putting a gun to someone's head in order to make them do your bidding.

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

(OP)
Hi vooter

Well the other day I was reading thru some specs and it was peppered with “shell not”.  When I see “shall” my brains says yes you can do that, then when I see the “not” my brain trips on itself and I have to re-read the sentence to make sure if I can do it or not.  I guess the ‘shall” is a flag to indicate what you can do and “will not” is the flag for don’t do this.  But when it is combined, is that correct?

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

The long standing rules are that in any of the future tenses, 'shall' should be used in first person, and 'will' in second and third person.

To complicate it further, if you are in first person and declarative mood, you should use 'will'.  However, in first person imperative mood, 'shall' is the better choice.  In second and third person it is the opposite; 'shall' should be used in declarative mood, and 'will' in the imperative.

That being said, not many people pay much attention to either of these rules anymore, and so 'will' seems to be gaining momentum in all persons, tenses, and moods.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

(OP)
Hi CajunCenturion,

A star for you…

So in the second and third person “shall” is to declare and “will” is to express control, but in the same document should “shall” and “shall not” be used?

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

(OP)
Hi whyun,

Man after reading that, I did not know that “shall” and “will” were a complicated set of words.

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

I think the most important aspect within the same document is not about which rules you choose to adopt, but to be consistent in the application of your chosen rule(s).

There is nothing wrong with using 'shall' or 'shall not'.
If you really want to confuse, use 'shan't', the contraction of 'shall' and 'not'.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

CC is right, but "shall" (in the US anyway) has taken on an almost exlusively imperative sense and these days means pretty much the same as "must".  (Just about every "shall" can be replaced with a "must", but not every "must" can become a "shall".)  "Will" is typically used simply as a future tense indicator.

The pattern I like is "shall" or "must" for requirements, and "will" for a prediction.  I've seen a number of specs that use "shall" for what the other party is being asked to do, and "will" for what the party writing the spec will do; "will" works there as a predictive statement because the specwriting entity has control over what they will do but not what their contractor will do.  So a statement like "The contractor will not cross the big yellow line" is simply rendered false as soon as the contractor crosses the big yellow line.

The pattern Tobalcane mentions about "shall" for positive and "will not" for negative is completely new to me and makes no sense.  (Not that language has to follow logic, but the modern "shall/will" distinction usually does for me.)

Tobalcane, do you have a written source giving this rule?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

And if you are in the Omnipotent mood, you use 'Thou Shalt'.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

2
I think the people who write Mil Specs (and we do the same with contracts, technical specs and Defence Standards in the UK) have recognised that they need to draw a distinction between two different things, and have imbued two traditional words with new meanings to allow them to make that distinction.

A wise author will put a paragraph at the beginning of their document explaining what they have done, and how the word "shall" is to be interpreted.

We use "shall" to indicate a condition which is mandated by the specification and "shall not" to indicate a condition which is prohibited.  "Will" and "will not" are used to provide information about a condition which, although expected, is not the responsibility of either of the parties to the contract, or will not result in a breach of the specification or contract if it does not turn out to be the case.

In ordinary (as opposed to Mil-Speak) language, I think CajunCenturion is spot-on.

A.

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

zeus:  What you describe is exactly what I'm most familiar with.  I wish I'd put it that well.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

I also agree with zeusfaber.   In recent years, I have avoided using the obligatory shall by using is + the infinitive of the verb.  For example, instead of saying “The contractor shall provide all materials to do the job” you might say ”The contractor is to provide all the materials to do the job.”  This conveys the contractors obligation and avoids the need to interpret the meaning of shall.

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

What I can't figure out is why no one wants to use "must" in their specs.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

"What I can't figure out is why no one wants to use "must" in their specs."

No no no, these are specs we are talking about. You can't use plain language in specs. People might understand your intent...

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

(OP)
HgTX,
Nope I have no specific rule to point to on how to use “shall” and “will not”, but now I have a better understanding on how to use these words.

Everybody,
Thanks for your inputs!

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: ôshallö how do you use it?

Looks like the lawyers would have a litigatious time with this one

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