Pet peeve with contractors
Pet peeve with contractors
(OP)
You know, it always baffels me that contractors always think they know more about engineering than the engineer themselves. Common beliefs are....
A) The engineer always over does the design. If they call out (5) #5 bars then it probably only really needs (2) #4 bars to work.
B) Engineers love to dream up really complex methods to do things. We never consider how the contractor will have to do something.
C) The only reason their are #6 bars and larger is for skyscrapers and monster bridges. There is never a requirement for that size bar other than that.
D) If the contractor has never "seen" it done that way before than it must be wrong, even if the contractor has never installed anything like it before.
I could probably go on and on like this but it just gets on my nerves how people think we are all just idiots. I mean I have even worked in construction pouring concrete and setting steel when I was younger so I have a pretty good feel what they have to deal with. It's just interesting that someone will trust their intuitive judgement without any formal training in basic force transfer and design over what someone with formal training in engineering recommends.
Any thoughts on this?
A) The engineer always over does the design. If they call out (5) #5 bars then it probably only really needs (2) #4 bars to work.
B) Engineers love to dream up really complex methods to do things. We never consider how the contractor will have to do something.
C) The only reason their are #6 bars and larger is for skyscrapers and monster bridges. There is never a requirement for that size bar other than that.
D) If the contractor has never "seen" it done that way before than it must be wrong, even if the contractor has never installed anything like it before.
I could probably go on and on like this but it just gets on my nerves how people think we are all just idiots. I mean I have even worked in construction pouring concrete and setting steel when I was younger so I have a pretty good feel what they have to deal with. It's just interesting that someone will trust their intuitive judgement without any formal training in basic force transfer and design over what someone with formal training in engineering recommends.
Any thoughts on this?






RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I can empathize with you. I've been in engineering for over 25 years now and constantly have to fight this battle with construction contractors. I caught one guy putting in twice as much temperature steel on a one-way slab because he thought it would make it stronger. If you try and explain the engineering principles involved, you get that "deer in the headlights" look and then they go off and do whatever the heck they want anyway. If it doesn't adversely affect the structure and doesn't cost us more money, I'll let them do whatever. Most of my experiences have been with contractors adding more 'cause it just don't "look" strong enough to them. However, I just recently had an incident where we told the contractor he had to wait 28 days before driving his concrete trucks over new airfield pavement. He ignored us and started driving around at 7 days because he thought he knew better.
When I was a young engineer of about 5 years experience, I had a construction guy tell me that he wasn't going to let some college punk tell him what to do. I really don't know how you're suppose to overcome an attitude like that. I guess the old "blue collar vs. white collar" thing is still around. It would make an interesting psychological study.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
Its just interesting to watch everyones personality isn't it?
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
That makes ALL the difference.
I spent >8 yrs in a state DOT. There were a significant number of designers that had little or no field experience. They would often design things that had constructability or traffic control plan problems. This is probably what causes contractors to not trust engineers.
I quickly decided that the best designers had some construction, maintenance or traffic engineering experience.
PS to Vmirat: so, what happened to the airfield?
------------------------------------------
"...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail."
Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
"Never wrestle a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it."
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I agree with you in that each person must be judged on an individual basis. I also look to those guys to help determine what is the best way to do something. They should be consulted with on installation and fabrication aspects because they do know more about that then us. What I don't like is them telling me beam sizes and rebar sizes because they "know" it will work.
Thanks for your input guys. I am just feeling the need to vent today!
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I had one contractor who wanted me to pay for the extra concrete used for spread footings, which he overexcavated. I made a site visit prior to the concrete pour, he asked if I saw anything wrong. I told him no except the footings looked too big. I noted in my field report that the footings exceeded the drawing requirements but would be acceptable and submitted a copy to the architect who forwarded a copy to the owner and contractor. since the footings were larger than what I asked for on the drawings, he poured more concrete than needed and felt I should pay the difference since I failed to point it out. he shut up when reminded about the field report and the owner told him it was his fault for over excavating.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
The military has a similar problem between enlisted and officer (ex-captain here). Brand new second lieutenants have to earn the respect of their troops. Rank can carry you only so far. Interestingly enough, the German military requires that everyone start out as enlisted and work their way up to officer from there. Don't know if that's practical in the construction world, but definitely think engineers of all kinds should spend some time in the field.
ACtrafficengr: At this point in time, we are discussing the airfield pavement issue with the contractor. Another example of not knowing engineering. The contractor claims that the cylinder tests were right on target for strength so they were not concerned. I had to explain that the cylinder tests are laboratory controlled. The concrete in the field has been curing in 45-50 degree temperatures, so its strength is not going to match that in the lab. And, oh by the way, you're suppose to be doing beam breaks for airfield pavements! I suspect the concrete is OK (12 inches), but that's not the issue. The contractor went against my directives.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
Most recent example: I design a rectangular two story building, approximately 7,000 square feet with the second story walls inset from the first story walls on each side. The building is ~100' x ~55'. It is mostly conventional wood framing, but a little complicated. One of the long second story walls doesn't line up with a wall below, and I'm forced to use steel posts and beams under that wall as well as design the 2nd floor shear walls for the additional torsional load. One of the short 2nd floor walls that does line up with a 1st story wall can't have a continuous shear wall from foundation to roof due to windows in the 2nd story and doors / openings in the 1st story wall. I had to have shear walls in that 2nd story wall and so I added a beam in between the 2 stories that could handle the moment created by the 2nd floor shear wall.
To cut a long story short, he came into my office and protested / argued everything from need for shearwalls at all to use to squash blocks at TJI joists. All of my explanations were lost on him, including the lateral wind bracing, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc. After what I thought was convincing him to build it to the drawings, I did an inspection 6 months later to find out that he built it just as he wanted to. No shear walls at all, you name it.
I called a month later after I gave him repairs / fixes for everything (some major changes were needed, mostly shear walls, and the beam in the wall) to see if they were done fixing the building so I could re-inspect, and he says yeah, they're done, but I don't need to come out again do I? I go out again and re-inspect of course, and it looks essentially the same, of course. After his best attempts to convince me of its worthiness (due to his many years of experience and the fact that he has done this before), he says ok, he'll fix it. He calls a week later saying he got another engineer to sign the letter, but that he really enjoyed working with me, and that together, we built a really good building, and that he couldnt wait to work with us again.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I spent my first 8 years after college in construction administration and inspections.
Then the next 30 year as a building contractor with an unlimited license in Florida.
Now I am semi-retired and went back to structural engineering.
I do the calculations and then the design and look at it and say “boy, did I ever under build when I was a contractor.”
I feel torn by what the calculations tell me and what is “standard practice”
I just explain it to the contractor that if my seal is on the design I could care less what he thinks.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
1. Written a letter of complaint to the engineering board - notifying them that this other engineer was plan stamping.
2. Written a letter to the owner/contractor/copy everyone - that what was built was not to plans and that I took exception to (list deviances here).
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
This is an interesting topic. I have two questions.
1. Does some field experience (knowledge of construction techniques, construction machinery, temporary support systems, QA/QC etc) enhance a structural enginers design?
2. Would the relationship between contractors and structural engineers improve if the latter had field experience as outlined in item 1, thereby allowing them (engineers) to communicate in the former's language/lingo?
I have a hunch that if contractor personnel are aware an engineer has some field experience, they tend to accept the engineers design.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
JAE, I've never dealt with the situation before. I can see how plan stamping is unethical, but is it actually illegal?
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
First:
I recently completed the design for one of our clients (a national and international firm). I had to specify pre-engineered pre-cast concrete buildings that will house automatic transfer switches for generators. There are three sites and two of the sites were almost identical except one of them was larger. I have the floor plans with dimensions; I also have the foot print and height of each building called out for each site. However, I only indicated the elevations for one of the site. Under the title I indicated that the other sites are similar.
The contractor came back with a bid sating that only one of the buildings will get pre-cast concrete roof. The other building will not because I did not draw the elevation. He chose to totally disregard my note of the other building similar!
I was so furious with the attitude, audacity of this contractor. He almost had our client’s buyer agree with him.
As I frequent the ancient cities were many magnificent structures were building with out any details. Contractors now a days want engineers to hold their hands and tell them every little detail otherwise it is a change order or they can not build it. They are to blame plus our low bid system that consistently invites them back. I do not like low ball artists in any profession.
Second:
On another recent project, out mechanical engineers specified new roof top equipment to replace old roof top units. We admittedly failed to state the new equipment shall be anchored to the curbs. The contractor provided equipment and he snuggly fit it to the curb with out any fastening! Keep in mind Florida Building Code mandates that all roof top units must be anchored due to hurricane wind force. Go figure!
Third:
The contractor laid out the building corners and one of the corners was about 20 inches off. They discovered this after the footings were placed. The offset would have the tilt-up walls bearing near the edge of the footing. They asked us what to do! We said, we need to increase the width of the footing to ensure suitable soil pressure and since it was the contractor’s mistake we like to see a fix prepared by their engineer for us to review. They belly ached and complained to the owner that we were holding the progress on the project. We finally resolved the matter without our company getting compensated by anyone.
GO CONTRATORS
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK
Regards,
Lutfi
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
From a contracting and engineering standpoint, we see more problems with consultant's plans than we do with the execution. The difference is we can usually catch those in our shop drawing phase. Some of the more problematic items are:
-Plans and specifications that seem to have been written by two different people who failed to compare notes.
-Specifications that require a foundation to be designed by the contractor, while the PE-sealed drawings show a foundation design. I have learned through the years that these cases go about half-and-half as to whether the foundation design is mandatory (and has been thought out) or whether it is a "sample" and meaningless in its details. It boggles my mind to think that engineers can put a detailed foundation on a drawing and seal it without ever having checked a single load or force in it, but that does happen.
On the contracting end, one issue I've seen on occasion is welding rebar which shouldn't be welded. Specifically, tack-welding rebar instead of wire-tying it. The guys figure that's as good or better, and it does support the rebar, but I assume it impairs strength to an indeterminate degree.
On the PE-signing-off case above, it's not clear what was done exactly. It does sound like plan-stamping, and that may be exactly what it is. And yes, that is illegal in most cases, although PE boards vary in their ability to enforce engineering rules and laws. But the contractor may have gotten an opinion or statement from another engineer that the design was okay as built (which, while perhaps incorrect, wouldn't be plan stamping, either). Or it could actually be a forged seal and signature- that happens on occasion. Or he could be lying about having gotten the seal- that happens too.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
On a specific point I would say that contractors generally prefer large bar diameters, they are paid by the tonne so who would want lots of small diameter bars.
Also where does the threadstarter get the idea that only design engineers have formal training. Contractors also employ engineers, and I really do believe that a few years experinece getting the job done does qualify the contractor's site engineers to give an opinion on the best way to construct.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
my complaints are not with/about all contractors. I have a great working relationship with at least four contractors and we act as a team whenever they are constructing buildings on which I am the SER. but I have experiences with several other contractors who are belligerent toward engineers regardless of the engineer's experience. it happens with both small and large construction firms. not all contractors have engineers on staff. of the contractors with whom I have a good relationship, only one employs engineers on their staff but does not use those engineers for all projects.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
We had such a problem with Contractors scaling drawings, instead of reading dimensions (or asking questions), that we added these statements to contract documents:
In the specification, "Drawings are not to be scaled"
And on the drawings themselves, "Not drawn to scale" (even when they were).
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
they seemed ok while they had a relationship, but once it was over - ouch!
i would suggest that both need to keep in mind that the final goal is a safe job, done on time and within budget.
all else is cause for threads like this one.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
No, field experience won't change the calculated loads but it will make it much more likely that the engineer will leave room for forms & falsework, provide access for welding & bolting, etc.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
archeng59, another prescriptive requirement that doesn't work when you run the calcs is the foundation anchor bolt requirement.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
If a contractor tells me that that is not the way it is normally done, I will try to find out how others are doing it and re-evaluate my procedures. It may turn out that my way is better or possibly not. I will continue to learn from this process.
There are good and not so good people in both professions. Hang around the good people and you will learn alot and continue to grow. Try to ignore the people who, perhaps, don't have the complete picture.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
What we all have to understand is that we are all working together to build a product. Each of us has an important role in their own aspects. If the engineers don't design properly then it will not be safe or may not work at all. If the drafters don't draw it properly then the shop can't fabricate it correctly and the installers can't make it fit up. If the shop doesn't fabricate it right then pieces will not fit up in the field. And on and on and on. Each of us has to be trained to do the job correctly and to the best of our abilities and trust that the others involved are willing to do the same.
Now I think what jike said in the last post is very accurate and is what I try to do. I have been exposed lately to a few contractors with 10 gallon ego's and mouths that will not quit. So I guess I have a little bad taste in my mouth right now. In my field I am exposed to a lot of guys with a lot of experience but no formal training in engineering. I mean at the design and field level. I can promise you that at least these people look at a design as if it works the day you put it in then it will work forever. Their is no consideration for other aspects of the design such as environmental loads or changing conditions. Also it is all intuitive from the get go. I can't tell you how many times I have seen designs with panel point eccentricites of 12" or more and a host of other bad practicies. When I question them I get "well that doesn't make any difference, or its always been done like that". I also often hear these contractors with high school educations saying "I know more about engineering than any college trained engineer will ever know!". Sorry if I find that a little hard to believe.
Zambo,
I never said design engineers are the only ones with formal training. I agree that contractors do hire engineers or are engineers and many of them are very good design engineers in there own right. I am probably more exposed to contractors without any formal training, your so called pick-up truck guy with a sign on the door. I have worked with degreed engineers on several projects and to be honest they all went really smooth. We had some issues but we could easily talk through those issues and look at both sides to get a resolution. I also agree with contractors giving input into how things should be constructed. If the contractor buy's into how something is going to be done then we will make a much better product overall and both sides feel like they are not getting screwed on the deal. The rebar deal has to do with several recent design-build projects where the contractors are not really geared up to use bigger bars. So when they got the drawings they are crying to me to change the design because they don't have a rod bender that can handle bars larger than #5. And the weight of the larger bars is harder to deal with. It's not my fault if you underestimate a job or overestimate your capabilities. If I were hired to design something do you think the owner is going to change his requirements for a project because I don't have design software to complete the job or I need to do twenty hours of research on something I wasn't planning to do? I doubt it.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
It's another day - I'd love to see that "Pet Peeves with Engineers" list. As several have said, Contractors often provide incredible insight as to what will make their jobs easier and the whole project better, while still satifying the "engineering." Many of the best things I've ever learned were pointed out by Contractors and by time spent on the site.
I try to never lose sight of the fact that all I'm doing is making lines on paper. Somebody else actually has to build it.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
a) Contractor who changes a design has personal responsibility for it, just like an engineer.
b) Contractor who changes a design must perform calculations to justify it.
Also, think about it from the owners perspective. He/she wants to have a building constructed. So he/she hires design professionals and contractors. When problems occur and things don't go as planned, they begin to blame each other rather than working together to give the owner what he/she hired them for: A properly designed & constructed building.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
The parable of the ogre engineers
Long long ago, when the assembly line was invented there became two kinds of engineers: Those who designed the thing, and those who made the thing. Both hated each other. The ones who designed the thing always new better than the ones who made the thing. The ones who made the thing thought the ones who designed the thing were arrogant idiots with no practical experience. They would take drawings and throw them to each other, over a very high wall... and as with tall walls, it was hard for either side to hear the complaints or explinations from those on the other side.... then one day, a short man from japan (rhyme on purpose here) took a recking ball to the wall. when the dust settled, those who made the thing and those who designed the thing realized that the other was not an ugly ogre. they began to work closely together and found they could make a thing that was easier to make, cheaper to build, with more functionality in less time. And the world was good again...
I understand that the building idustry is different than manufacturing, but compromise and communication make a much more effective and functional design.
That said.. keep up the rant. It is filling my day with joy, as I read each post
Wes C.
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When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
My experience with contractors has been 99% good but I
really can't say that about other engineers.
It always seems to me that the engineers that gripe the most about "bad" contractors on a typical basis usually have created a lot of the problems themselves. When one
starts blaming contractors on a continuing basis it is time
to take a real serious look at the plans/specs that you
are providing. We design a lot of temporary structures
(shoring. reshoring, etc.) and over the years the quality of the drawings have become worse.
I am sure that each and every one of you have had some
bad experiences with contractors but maybe you should spend some of your energy making your own work better; we would
all be better off.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
When I left the field and went into design, lots of times I would spot things on drawings that wouldn't work in the field (like interference in the space needed for pulling a heat exchanger bundle) and would point it out to the designers and/or draftsperson. They often would say I never thought of that. To which I would reply you would if you had ever had to pull a bundle.
I think field experience makes a difference, but it is impossible for everyone to have it.
Now regarding contractors, I worked with some lu-lu's too.
rmw
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I have worked for contractors internationally for 15 years and I have a strong respect for the work carried out by north american and european contractors.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
As this is putatively to be peeves about contractors, the one I have is when they submit materials for source approval to the engineer and the product does not meet the specifications. Example, for a hydrophillic waterstop, the contract specifications clearly say that "bentonite based waterstop is not an equivalent" - so what does the contractor submit for source approval? - a bentonite based waterstop. Or where he has to provide a geotextile to meet certain requirements and he submits a product listing but doesn't say which one he wants to use - it is sort of like - "which one will you accept?".
I'll wait until SRE starts his contractor's peeve for others.
Ciao.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I'm not a belligerent engineer. I try to resolve issues without acting superior to anyone. but sometimes, the contractor is hard to work with.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I am curious though, many of the complaints seem to revolve around residential contractors and commercial building contractors. Both of these fields are usually very light on staff engineers. However, in the heavy civil/structural construction world there generally are a lot more of us PE's on staff. At my company all but one project manager is a PE and the entire executive management staff is licensed. Does anyone notice a difference in dealing with heavy civil/structural contractors? Does the engineering background help a little or a lot?
Also, do you feel that owners in the public works arena are willing to fully compensate for a complete design or do they push the hours down to what they think should be enough?
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
It is often enjoyable working on larger projects with larger contractors that have engineers on staff. Everyone seems to be working toward the same goal.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I have learned more from riggers and old time superintendents than I have from any design seminars. They have seen not only seen what works but what does not work. Most engineers have never witnessed an actual failure. Most assume failure is the inability of a computation to show an allowable strees level. Most do not associate it with something crashing down.
The guys in the field may not be able to develop designs to the extent you can, but most have a good understanding of what works and why. Gentle words are not often found on a construction site. And criticism from these guys can be rough and humbling, however you can truely learn how what you are designing is built and your work will improve tremendously.
Are there know it all contractors who don't know what they are talking about - Of course, just as there are as many designers with the same attitude. These contractors should be held to the terms of thier contracts. It is unfair to the rest of us who did not get the job and bid it correctly. But most of the contractors are trying to do the work the best they can and when suggestions are made it is because what their experience tells them.
As a final note, which ties into the orginal note, most plans do not have good constructibility details and many times costruction loadings will be greater than in service loads. Often only the inservice loads are calculated.
So I will close as I opened, You guys really need to get out of the office more.
RE: Pet peeve with contractors
I'm in consulting and usually form the interface to the contractor. I don't have many experiences of contractors directly questioning my design. The approach is usually more subtle. They question the buildability or raise construction programme constraints. It is usually very clear when a contractor is not happy with my brilliant, economic and simple solutions!
I've learnt from experience that while there are as many idiots in contracting as in any other walk of life, few of them are prepared to waste their own time to battle with me over adequate designs. So if the contractor has a problem, it is either a lack of understanding on their part or a poor design on mine. The solution to both is the same - TALK TO EACH OTHER. This is also best done face to face as telephones create a psychological barrier (never ever use email for dispute resolution).
Most people (including contractors) respond well to having the problem and solution explained. Be prepared to meet the contractor part way. There are very few procedures which con only be done in one way.
Finally, contractors like to do things using tried and tested techniques. This gives cost and programme certainty to the contractor. Know your contractors - know how they usually work and adopt those techniques in your design assumptions.