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Pet peeve with contractors
8

Pet peeve with contractors

Pet peeve with contractors

(OP)
You know, it always baffels me that contractors always think they know more about engineering than the engineer themselves.  Common beliefs are....

A) The engineer always over does the design.  If they call out (5) #5 bars then it probably only really needs (2) #4 bars to work.

B) Engineers love to dream up really complex methods to do things.  We never consider how the contractor will have to do something.

C) The only reason their are #6 bars and larger is for skyscrapers and monster bridges.  There is never a requirement for that size bar other than that.

D) If the contractor has never "seen" it done that way before than it must be wrong, even if the contractor has never installed anything like it before.

I could probably go on and on like this but it just gets on my nerves how people think we are all just idiots.  I mean I have even worked in construction pouring concrete and setting steel when I was younger so I have a pretty good feel what they have to deal with.  It's just interesting that someone will trust their intuitive judgement without any formal training in basic force transfer and design over what someone with formal training in engineering recommends.

Any thoughts on this?

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I totally agree with you. I got three As-Built Plans to do, which will take longer and more work to do than the original design did. I got a hugh 4 pump septic field screw up, a 350 foot long tightrope slope paving mess and a property line 10 foot high retaining wall dug out along the property line with no survey ever done to actually locate the line. All three of these jobs had Stop Work Orders issued by the Boro Officials in the past 2 weeks, and now they require As-Builts for the jobs to continue.I think it mainly all comes down to 1)saving money and 2)cutting a corner if possible. As far as engineering the job by themselves, its a distant 3rd in my book.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

aggman,

I can empathize with you.  I've been in engineering for over 25 years now and constantly have to fight this battle with construction contractors.  I caught one guy putting in twice as much temperature steel on a one-way slab because he thought it would make it stronger.  If you try and explain the engineering principles involved, you get that "deer in the headlights" look and then they go off and do whatever the heck they want anyway.  If it doesn't adversely affect the structure and doesn't cost us more money, I'll let them do whatever.  Most of my experiences have been with contractors adding more 'cause it just don't "look" strong enough to them.  However, I just recently had an incident where we told the contractor he had to wait 28 days before driving his concrete trucks over new airfield pavement.  He ignored us and started driving around at 7 days because he thought he knew better.

When I was a young engineer of about 5 years experience, I had a construction guy tell me that he wasn't going to let some college punk tell him what to do.  I really don't know how you're suppose to overcome an attitude like that.  I guess the old "blue collar vs. white collar" thing is still around.  It would make an interesting psychological study.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

(OP)
I run into the too light thing a lot too.  It just seems that no matter what I come up with it's not what they think it should be.  I once designed this big crusher support that was 26' up in the air.  I designed a post tensioned foundation into rock and a steel support structure with X-braced frames to support this 150,000# crusher.  I sized everything up adequatly and used like W8x24 x bracing and W10x49 columns.  (Six columns with all panels fully x-braced).  The erector comes snorting into the office one morning and tells me there is no way it will work because my columns were too light.  He expected that it would take W12x96 columns to do the job.  I asked him how he came about that number and he says, "Lots of experience fixing ones that didn't work!"  He said it would sway back and forth because the columns were so small.  I said well if your concern is sway then to fix that we should beef up the bracing, not the columns.  (I didn't want to change anything because it was already fabricated.)  He said the bracing looked fine but the columns were too light.  After more bantering he storms out saying that when it failed I could call him to show me how to do it.  A few months later the thing starts up and runs really well, just like my calcs predicted and still is 4 years later.  Never once did the guy say anything to me about it.

Its just interesting to watch everyones personality isn't it?

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Quote: "I mean I have even worked in construction pouring concrete and setting steel when I was younger so I have a pretty good feel what they have to deal with."

That makes ALL the difference.

I spent >8 yrs in a state DOT. There were a significant number of designers that had little or no field experience. They would often design things that had constructability or traffic control plan problems. This is probably what causes contractors to not trust engineers.

I quickly decided that the best designers had some construction, maintenance or traffic engineering experience.

PS to Vmirat: so, what happened to the airfield?

------------------------------------------
     "...students of traffic are beginning to realize the false economy of mechanically controlled traffic, and hand work by trained officers will again prevail."

              Wm. Phelps Eno, ca. 1928

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Construction types have a mind of their own.  I kind of like the "deer in the headlights" analogy.  Sometimes people's egos' exceed their intelligence.  On the other side I've worked with Construction types that came up with excellent ideas or were very good at implementing projects as designed the best they could.  Like anything else people should be judged on an individual basis.  Best we can do as Engineers is to cover our tail and make sure whatever is done under our cognizance is done properly.



"Never wrestle a pig.  You both get dirty and the pig likes it."

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

(OP)
Bagman2524,
I agree with you in that each person must be judged on an individual basis.  I also look to those guys to help determine what is the best way to do something.  They should be consulted with on installation and fabrication aspects because they do know more about that then us.  What I don't like is them telling me beam sizes and rebar sizes because they "know" it will work.

Thanks for your input guys.  I am just feeling the need to vent today!

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

aggman, I've been there many times.  when the contractor argues with me and is belligerent about it, I've learned to ask them to show me their calcs so we can compare notes.  when they refuse to go by the drawings, I tell them I can't make them follow the drawings.  but they need to check with their boss before making an unapproved change because if they are wrong, it's their fault if it fails.  I really don't like it that owners and building officials expect me to check the contractor's work, either.  

I had one contractor who wanted me to pay for the extra concrete used for spread footings, which he overexcavated.  I made a site visit prior to the concrete pour, he asked if I saw anything wrong.  I told him no except the footings looked too big.  I noted in my field report that the footings exceeded the drawing requirements but would be acceptable and submitted a copy to the architect who forwarded a copy to the owner and contractor.  since the footings were larger than what I asked for on the drawings, he poured more concrete than needed and felt I should pay the difference since I failed to point it out.  he shut up when reminded about the field report and the owner told him it was his fault for over excavating.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I totally agree about engineers getting practical experience in constructability.  Not sure what the venue should be for that:  college or on-the-job.  I've done a fair share of construction work and visited enough job sites to see how things work...or don't work.  I also try to give the construction guy the benefit of the doubt because, as Bagman2424 said, we should judge on an individual basis.  Unfortuntely, my experience has been predominately negative.

The military has a similar problem between enlisted and officer (ex-captain here).  Brand new second lieutenants have to earn the respect of their troops.  Rank can carry you only so far.  Interestingly enough, the German military requires that everyone start out as enlisted and work their way up to officer from there.  Don't know if that's practical in the construction world, but definitely think engineers of all kinds should spend some time in the field.

ACtrafficengr:  At this point in time, we are discussing the airfield pavement issue with the contractor.  Another example of not knowing engineering.  The contractor claims that the cylinder tests were right on target for strength so they were not concerned.  I had to explain that the cylinder tests are laboratory controlled.  The concrete in the field has been curing in 45-50 degree temperatures, so its strength is not going to match that in the lab.  And, oh by the way, you're suppose to be doing beam breaks for airfield pavements!  I suspect the concrete is OK (12 inches), but that's not the issue.  The contractor went against my directives.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

My #1 pet peeve is contractors who think they know just about everything there is to know about just about everything.

Most recent example:  I design a rectangular two story building, approximately 7,000 square feet with the second story walls inset from the first story walls on each side.  The building is ~100' x ~55'.  It is mostly conventional wood framing, but a little complicated.  One of the long second story walls doesn't line up with a wall below, and I'm forced to use steel posts and beams under that wall as well as design the 2nd floor shear walls for the additional torsional load.  One of the short 2nd floor walls that does line up with a 1st story wall can't have a continuous shear wall from foundation to roof due to windows in the 2nd story and doors / openings in the 1st story wall.  I had to have shear walls in that 2nd story wall and so I added a beam in between the 2 stories that could handle the moment created by the 2nd floor shear wall.

To cut a long story short, he came into my office and protested / argued everything from need for shearwalls at all to use to squash blocks at TJI joists.  All of my explanations were lost on him, including the lateral wind bracing, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.  After what I thought was convincing him to build it to the drawings, I did an inspection 6 months later to find out that he built it just as he wanted to.  No shear walls at all, you name it.

I called a month later after I gave him repairs / fixes for everything (some major changes were needed, mostly shear walls, and the beam in the wall) to see if they were done fixing the building so I could re-inspect, and he says yeah, they're done, but I don't need to come out again do I?  I go out again and re-inspect of course, and it looks essentially the same, of course.  After his best attempts to convince me of its worthiness (due to his many years of experience and the fact that he has done this before), he says ok, he'll fix it.  He calls a week later saying he got another engineer to sign the letter, but that he really enjoyed working with me, and that together, we built a really good building, and that he couldnt wait to work with us again.  

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

AggieYank, if contractors were held to the same liabilities we are as engineers, they would not be so willing to change from what is shown on the CD's.  I hear repeatedly, "I'm not responsible for anything after the first year of occupancy."  they just want to build it and move on, leaving us with the liability.  nuts.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

archeng59, I agree.  Some contractors cut as many corners as they can, as long as they can still get that letter, so they aren't liable.  To be fair, most that I work with want to build the best building they can.  Mistakes are honest, and they'll fix them.  A few though, and the one I mentioned in particular are awful to work with.  This guy also shafted his framer.  He took the building plan, cut the dimensions by 20%, had the guy bid the job, then wouldn't pay him the extra when the framer realized the building was ~20% bigger than he though.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

2
There is another side that no one has touched on.
I spent my first 8 years after college in construction administration and inspections.
Then the next 30 year as a building contractor with an unlimited license in Florida.
Now I am semi-retired and went back to structural engineering.
I do the calculations and then the design and look at it and say “boy, did I ever under build when I was a contractor.”
I feel torn by what the calculations tell me and what is “standard practice”
I just explain it to the contractor that if my seal is on the design I could care less what he thinks.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

when I was in college taking a wood design class, our professor asked us to verify that the prescriptive wood framing and shear wall requirements in the residential code would meet the BOCA code requirements.  after going thru the calcs, I was shocked that the shear walls, load bearing studs, rafters and joists did not meet the BOCA code.  the explanation was that the prescriptive codes are based on historical performance instead of engineering calcs.  anyone else go thru a similar exercise?

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

AggieYank - in your case of the contractor getting another engineer to sign off - I would have done two things:

1.  Written a letter of complaint to the engineering board - notifying them that this other engineer was plan stamping.

2.  Written a letter to the owner/contractor/copy everyone - that what was built was not to plans and that I took exception to (list deviances here).

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Aggman et al,

This is an interesting topic. I have two questions.

1. Does some field experience (knowledge of construction techniques, construction machinery, temporary support systems, QA/QC etc) enhance a structural enginers design?

2. Would the relationship between contractors and structural engineers improve if the latter had field experience as outlined in item 1, thereby allowing them (engineers) to communicate in the former's language/lingo?

I have a hunch that if contractor personnel are aware an engineer has some field experience, they tend to accept the engineers design.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

henri2, having some basic construction experience wouldn't change the size of members used, lateral bracing, or anything fundamental.  It may allow the engineer to come up with a detail which he knows is more buildable, or where to put allowable construction joints in a complicated concrete connection based on how they'll shore it, things like that.

JAE, I've never dealt with the situation before.  I can see how plan stamping is unethical, but is it actually illegal?

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I must share three stories with you since we are on the subject of contractors:

First:
I recently completed the design for one of our clients (a national and international firm). I had to specify pre-engineered pre-cast concrete buildings that will house automatic transfer switches for generators. There are three sites and two of the sites were almost identical except one of them was larger. I have the floor plans with dimensions; I also have the foot print and height of each building called out for each site. However, I only indicated the elevations for one of the site. Under the title I indicated that the other sites are similar.

The contractor came back with a bid sating that only one of the buildings will get pre-cast concrete roof. The other building will not because I did not draw the elevation. He chose to totally disregard my note of the other building similar!

I was so furious with the attitude, audacity of this contractor. He almost had our client’s buyer agree with him.

As I frequent the ancient cities were many magnificent structures were building with out any details. Contractors now a days want engineers to hold their hands and tell them every little detail otherwise it is a change order or they can not build it. They are to blame plus our low bid system that consistently invites them back. I do not like low ball artists in any profession.


Second:
On another recent project, out mechanical engineers specified new roof top equipment to replace old roof top units. We admittedly failed to state the new equipment shall be anchored to the curbs. The contractor provided equipment and he snuggly fit it to the curb with out any fastening! Keep in mind Florida Building Code mandates that all roof top units must be anchored due to hurricane wind force. Go figure!

Third:
The contractor laid out the building corners and one of the corners was about 20 inches off. They discovered this after the footings were placed. The offset would have the tilt-up walls bearing near the edge of the footing. They asked us what to do! We said, we need to increase the width of the footing to ensure suitable soil pressure and since it was the contractor’s mistake we like to see a fix prepared by their engineer for us to review. They belly ached and complained to the owner that we were holding the progress on the project. We finally resolved the matter without our company getting compensated by anyone.

GO CONTRATORS
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

Regards,
Lutfi

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I think the posts above are rather interesting in their variation.  The contractor who thinks the design needs more rebar or larger beams is faulted for thinking so, while the other contractor is faulted for NOT putting in anchor bolts that were not shown.  I can imagine the next guy writing "We drew the plans without anchor bolts but the doofus contractor put them in anyway because he thought they were needed."

From a contracting and engineering standpoint, we see more problems with consultant's plans than we do with the execution.  The difference is we can usually catch those in our shop drawing phase.  Some of the more problematic items are:
-Plans and specifications that seem to have been written by two different people who failed to compare notes.
-Specifications that require a foundation to be designed by the contractor, while the PE-sealed drawings show a foundation design.  I have learned through the years that these cases go about half-and-half as to whether the foundation design is mandatory (and has been thought out) or whether it is a "sample" and meaningless in its details.  It boggles my mind to think that engineers can put a detailed foundation on a drawing and seal it without ever having checked a single load or force in it, but that does happen.

On the contracting end, one issue I've seen on occasion is welding rebar which shouldn't be welded.  Specifically, tack-welding rebar instead of wire-tying it.  The guys figure that's as good or better, and it does support the rebar, but I assume it impairs strength to an indeterminate degree.

On the PE-signing-off case above, it's not clear what was done exactly.  It does sound like plan-stamping, and that may be exactly what it is.  And yes, that is illegal in most cases, although PE boards vary in their ability to enforce engineering rules and laws.  But the contractor may have gotten an opinion or statement from another engineer that the design was okay as built (which, while perhaps incorrect, wouldn't be plan stamping, either).  Or it could actually be a forged seal and signature- that happens on occasion.  Or he could be lying about having gotten the seal- that happens too.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Without contractors you will not get the job built, so perhaps the thread starter should concentrate on finding a way to work as a team rather than trying to find reasons to complain. It is also worth noting that in the majority of cases the contractor has competed to get the work - he has been chosen by the client, so if the wrong choice has been made who is responsible?

On a specific point I would say that contractors generally prefer large bar diameters, they are paid by the tonne so who would want lots of small diameter bars.

Also where does the threadstarter get the idea that only design engineers have formal training. Contractors also employ engineers, and I really do believe that a few years experinece getting the job done does qualify the contractor's site engineers to give an opinion on the best way to construct.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

There is no doubt that buildings cannot be constructed without contractors.  but that's no excuse for contractors to assume that all engineers are idiots, to claim that engineers always over design everything and that the contractor knows more than the engineers.  by virtue of the contractor being selected by the owner, does that mean the engineer's recommendations are invalid if the contractor disagrees with those recommendations?  the owner selected the design team and paid for the recommendations, also.

my complaints are not with/about all contractors.  I have a great working relationship with at least four contractors and we act as a team whenever they are constructing buildings on which I am the SER.  but I have experiences with several other contractors who are belligerent toward engineers regardless of the engineer's experience.  it happens with both small and large construction firms.  not all contractors have engineers on staff.  of the contractors with whom I have a good relationship, only one employs engineers on their staff but does not use those engineers for all projects.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Having been a heavy construction contractor once-upon-a-time, could start a thread "Pet Peeve With Engineers"... but that is for another day.

We had such a problem with Contractors scaling drawings, instead of reading dimensions (or asking questions), that we added these statements to contract documents:

In the specification, "Drawings are not to be scaled"

And on the drawings themselves, "Not drawn to scale" (even when they were).

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

good, bad, or in the middle; contractors seem to be thought of as ex-wives.

they seemed ok while they had a relationship, but once it was over - ouch!

i would suggest that both need to keep in mind that the final goal is a safe job, done on time and within budget.  

all else is cause for threads like this one.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I'd say item B in the original post, at least the second half of it, is true often enough that it's no wonder contractors make that generalization.

No, field experience won't change the calculated loads but it will make it much more likely that the engineer will leave room for forms & falsework, provide access for welding & bolting, etc.  

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

aggman, I understand what you're saying.  I have worked with many contractors who were interested in doing a good job and who seemed to have respect for the engineer.  On the other hand, there is another group who only seem interested in cutting corners and attempting to blame the engineer for everything.

archeng59, another prescriptive requirement that doesn't work when you run the calcs is the foundation anchor bolt requirement.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I've been on both sides of the fence and there are as many stories that go the other way.  I remember a simple retaining wall where the engineer specified 50KSI piles.  I asked why, since strength not needed.  He said it was to minimize deflection.  I mentioned E being the same and he looked at me like a contractor would.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

"Plan Stamping" is also known as "Value Engineering".

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

2
Contractors see and experience designs from many different engineers. They generally are very practical and I am always interested if I can pick up a trick or two from them. I have seen alot in my 34 years of experience, but I am still open to finding a better way, if I can. I do not believe that I know everything nor am I infalliable. I am always interested in looking at others' drawings or seeing some other construction project because I may pick up another idea or two.

If a contractor tells me that that is not the way it is normally done, I will try to find out how others are doing it and re-evaluate my procedures. It may turn out that my way is better or possibly not. I will continue to learn from this process.

There are good and not so good people in both professions. Hang around the good people and you will learn alot and continue to grow. Try to ignore the people who, perhaps, don't have the complete picture.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

(OP)
Sorry for not posting back until now but I was out yesterday.  I think I need to clarify a few things.  Several of you have made mention that the contractors know how to get things done and that gives them qualifying experience, etc.  I never said that contractors don't have to be consulted with and there suggestions noted.  They have a lot of experience and are the ones who get the job done through thick and thin.  What I said was that I don't want them telling me what size footing or beam to use because they "know" it will work.  If you think its inadequate then by all means tell me, I am always open to suggestions, but don't like people with no ability to do any calculations saying my design is just wrong because they don't think it looks right!

What we all have to understand is that we are all working together to build a product.  Each of us has an important role in their own aspects.  If the engineers don't design properly then it will not be safe or may not work at all.  If the drafters don't draw it properly then the shop can't fabricate it correctly and the installers can't make it fit up.  If the shop doesn't fabricate it right then pieces will not fit up in the field.  And on and on and on.  Each of us has to be trained to do the job correctly and to the best of our abilities and trust that the others involved are willing to do the same.

Now I think what jike said in the last post is very accurate and is what I try to do.  I have been exposed lately to a few contractors with 10 gallon ego's and mouths that will not quit.  So I guess I have a little bad taste in my mouth right now.  In my field I am exposed to a lot of guys with a lot of experience but no formal training in engineering.  I mean at the design and field level.  I can promise you that at least these people look at a design as if it works the day you put it in then it will work forever.  Their is no consideration for other aspects of the design such as environmental loads or changing conditions.  Also it is all intuitive from the get go.  I can't tell you how many times I have seen designs with panel point eccentricites of 12" or more and a host of other bad practicies.  When I question them I get "well that doesn't make any difference, or its always been done like that".  I also often hear these contractors with high school educations saying "I know more about engineering than any college trained engineer will ever know!".  Sorry if I find that a little hard to believe.

Zambo,
I never said design engineers are the only ones with formal training.  I agree that contractors do hire engineers or are engineers and many of them are very good design engineers in there own right.  I am probably more exposed to contractors without any formal training, your so called pick-up truck guy with a sign on the door.  I have worked with degreed engineers on several projects and to be honest they all went really smooth.  We had some issues but we could easily talk through those issues and look at both sides to get a resolution.  I also agree with contractors giving input into how things should be constructed.  If the contractor buy's into how something is going to be done then we will make a much better product overall and both sides feel like they are not getting screwed on the deal.  The rebar deal has to do with several recent design-build projects where the contractors are not really geared up to use bigger bars.  So when they got the drawings they are crying to me to change the design because they don't have a rod bender that can handle bars larger than #5.  And the weight of the larger bars is harder to deal with.  It's not my fault if you underestimate a job or overestimate your capabilities.  If I were hired to design something do you think the owner is going to change his requirements for a project because I don't have design software to complete the job or I need to do twenty hours of research on something I wasn't planning to do?  I doubt it.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Slide Rule Era,

It's another day - I'd love to see that "Pet Peeves with Engineers" list.  As several have said, Contractors often provide incredible insight as to what will make their jobs easier and the whole project better, while still satifying the "engineering."  Many of the best things I've ever learned were pointed out by Contractors and by time spent on the site.

I try to never lose sight of the fact that all I'm doing is making lines on paper.  Somebody else actually has to build it.


RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Somewhere there was a thread along the lines of "common newbie engineer mistakes" that might do ya.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Perhaps if the laws that regulate construction were revised to include things like:

a) Contractor who changes a design has personal responsibility for it, just like an engineer.

b) Contractor who changes a design must perform calculations to justify it.

Also, think about it from the owners perspective. He/she wants to have a building constructed. So he/she hires design professionals and contractors. When problems occur and things don't go as planned, they begin to blame each other rather than working together to give the owner what he/she hired them for: A properly designed & constructed building.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Hi Everyone... I love reading the posts here.... I suppose I don't really have much to contribute, since I am not in the building construction industry... but my wife is an architect, and has gone on similar rants, so I'm going to tell the forum what I tell her...

The parable of the ogre engineers

Long long ago, when the assembly line was invented there became two kinds of engineers: Those who designed the thing, and those who made the thing. Both hated each other. The ones who designed the thing always new better than the ones who made the thing. The ones who made the thing thought the ones who designed the thing were arrogant idiots with no practical experience. They would take drawings and throw them to each other, over a very high wall... and as with tall walls, it was hard for either side to hear the complaints or explinations from those on the other side.... then one day, a short man from japan (rhyme on purpose here) took a recking ball to the wall. when the dust settled, those who made the thing and those who designed the thing realized that the other was not an ugly ogre. they began to work closely together and found they could make a thing that was easier to make, cheaper to build, with more functionality in less time. And the world was good again...


I understand that the building idustry is different than manufacturing, but compromise and communication make a much more effective and functional design.

That said.. keep up the rant. It is filling my day with joy, as I read each post

Wes C.
------------------------------
When they broke open molecules, they found they were only stuffed with atoms. But when they broke open atoms, they found them stuffed with explosions...

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

my posts likely sounded as though I dislike all contractors.  not so.  but suffering with the belligerent "know-it-alls" is not fun.  unfortunately there are alot of those guys.  when I meet contractors and superintendants for the first time, I ask them to contact me if they need anything or if they want to discuss the drawings.  there is more than one way to do things.  when both sides understand that and are open minded, the project seems to go well.  there are contractors and supers that I've developed a relationship with well enough to discuss options or to ask if I could have made the job better design-wise.  but, some guys developed an opinion that all engineers are idiots and apparently nothing will change their mind.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I am a structural engineer with over 32 years experience with dealing with both engineers and contractors.
My experience with contractors has been 99% good but I
really can't say that about other engineers.

It always seems to me that the engineers that gripe the most about "bad" contractors on a typical basis usually have created a lot of the problems themselves.  When one
starts blaming contractors on a continuing basis it is time
to take a real serious look at the plans/specs that you
are providing.  We design a lot of temporary structures
(shoring. reshoring, etc.) and over the years the quality of the drawings have become worse.  

I am sure that each and every one of you have had some
bad experiences with contractors but maybe you should spend some of your energy making your own work better; we would
all be better off.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I was a field engineer for mechanical equipment, so I worked with the contractors in resolving issues with the contractor and the engineers who created the 'lines on the paper' as sliderulera said above.  I saw lots of dumb things done by other engineers who had no idea of how stuff went together in the field.

When I left the field and went into design, lots of times I would spot things on drawings that wouldn't work in the field (like interference in the space needed for pulling a heat exchanger bundle) and would point it out to the designers and/or draftsperson.  They often would say I never thought of that.  To which I would reply you would if you had ever had to pull a bundle.

I think field experience makes a difference, but it is impossible for everyone to have it.

Now regarding contractors, I worked with some lu-lu's too.

rmw

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I think that aggman the threadstarter might have learnt something..... I hope so.  He may like to consider cases such as cable stay bridge construction where contractors  including VSL and Freyssinet are leading the field with R&D and consulting/design engineers are years behind.

I have worked for contractors internationally for 15 years and I have a strong respect for the work carried out by north american and european contractors.  

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

There is little question that both sides produce good work - that both sides make mistakes.  It works best when, as Wes616's fable says, both sides work together rather than finding fault.  I had a friend who, one day, was being ranted on by a foundation contractor over his (geotechnical engineer) view on a foundation situation.  The contractor finally said, "I've been doing this for 25 years and . . . " - my friend's mouth turned up with a little smile and said, "Well, I guess you've been doing it wrong for the 25 years."  It also works the other way (as SlideRuleEra has intimated).
  As this is putatively to be peeves about contractors, the one I have is when they submit materials for source approval to the engineer and the product does not meet the specifications.  Example, for a hydrophillic waterstop, the contract specifications clearly say that "bentonite based waterstop is not an equivalent" - so what does the contractor submit for source approval? - a bentonite based waterstop.  Or where he has to provide a geotextile to meet certain requirements and he submits a product listing but doesn't say which one he wants to use - it is sort of like - "which one will you accept?".  
  I'll wait until SRE starts his contractor's peeve for others.
Ciao.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

not all conflicts between engineers and contractors are the result of poor construction documents.  an example:  several years ago, I designed the framing for a dentist office.  Load bearing wood stud walls with manufactured wood trusses.  I specified DF#2 studs and utilized APA rated wood panels for shear walls.  A residential framer was hired to construct the building.  His experience was as a home builder, which qualified him to attempt to eliminate all of the shear panels except a single panel at each corner, which was inadequate for the size of the building.  Also, he considered himself qualified to determine that specifying DF #2 for the load bearing walls was over-kill and used stud grade Northern Species, which is what he used for his homes.  The framer told the owner that I was wasting the owner's money.  The owner went to another engineer for a peer review/second opinion.  the second engineer supported my design and the owner demanded that the framer to follow the drawings.  the framer went into a tirade about his 20+ yeares of experience and how engineers are worthless.  the owner fired him.

I'm not a belligerent engineer.  I try to resolve issues without acting superior to anyone.  but sometimes, the contractor is hard to work with.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

As a general contractor and a registered engineering I have read this thread with interest.  I could contribute quite a bit to the list of frustrations with the quality of plans and specs we are getting but have also witnessed plenty of "self-inflicted" wounds.  My personal opinion as to the source of many conflicts is that most owners simply are not knowedgeable enough to understand that money spent in the design phase gets you a lot more than during the construction phase.

I am curious though, many of the complaints seem to revolve around residential contractors and commercial building contractors.  Both of these fields are usually very light on staff engineers.  However, in the heavy civil/structural construction world there generally are a lot more of us PE's on staff.  At my company all but one project manager is a PE and the entire executive management staff is licensed.  Does anyone notice a difference in dealing with heavy civil/structural contractors?  Does the engineering background help a little or a lot?  

Also, do you feel that owners in the public works arena are willing to fully compensate for a complete design or do they push the hours down to what they think should be enough?

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

Ingy, I see contractors using engineers on the really big commercial projects.  the smaller projects generally don't have an engineer.  

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

I agree with Ingy. Most of the problems we see are with the smaller wood frame projects where a contractor that is used to doing resential projects tries to cross over into the commercial market and doesn't understand that there is a different code for dealing with commercial wood frame projects.

It is often enjoyable working on larger projects with larger contractors that have engineers on staff. Everyone seems to be working toward the same goal.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

You guys really need to get out of the office more. I have ben in design and construction for a while. I rarely see the designers on the site excpept for maybe a quick 20 min site tour once durring the project.
I have learned more from riggers and old time superintendents than I have from any design seminars. They have seen not only seen what works but what does not work. Most engineers have never witnessed an actual failure. Most assume failure is the inability of a computation to show an allowable strees level. Most do not associate it with something crashing down.
The guys in the field may not be able to develop designs to the extent you can, but most have a good understanding of what works and why. Gentle words are not often found on a construction site. And criticism from these guys can be rough and humbling, however you can truely learn how what you are designing is built and your work will improve tremendously.
Are there know it all contractors who don't know what they are talking about - Of course, just as there are as many designers with the same attitude. These contractors should be held to the terms of thier contracts. It is unfair to the rest of us who did not get the job and bid it correctly. But most of the contractors are trying to do the work the best they can and when suggestions are made it is because what their experience tells them.
As a final note, which ties into the orginal note, most plans do not have good constructibility details and many times costruction loadings will be greater than in service loads. Often only the inservice loads are calculated.
So I will close as I opened, You guys really need to get out of the office more.

RE: Pet peeve with contractors

If you are in the consulting business, you will have a list of peeves against contractors. If you are a contractor you will have a list of peeves against consultants. In all probability both lists are valid.

I'm in consulting and usually form the interface to the contractor. I don't have many experiences of contractors directly questioning my design. The approach is usually more subtle. They question the buildability or raise construction programme constraints. It is usually very clear when a contractor is not happy with my brilliant, economic and simple solutions!

I've learnt from experience that while there are as many idiots in contracting as in any other walk of life, few of them are prepared to waste their own time to battle with me over adequate designs. So if the contractor has a problem, it is either a lack of understanding on their part or a poor design on mine. The solution to both is the same - TALK TO EACH OTHER. This is also best done face to face as telephones create a psychological barrier (never ever use email for dispute resolution).

Most people (including contractors) respond well to having  the problem and solution explained. Be prepared to meet the contractor part way. There are very few procedures which con only be done in one way.

Finally, contractors like to do things using tried and tested techniques. This gives cost and programme certainty to the contractor. Know your contractors - know how they usually work and adopt those techniques in your design assumptions.

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