PE license by exam????
PE license by exam????
(OP)
Someone asked me the other day if my PE was "by exam". How the heck else can one earn a PE license? I understand and have gotten a license in other states "by comity" but I do not know of any other way to get that first license other than taking the test.





RE: PE license by exam????
There's a lot of old bad blood surrounding this issue. Every now and then there's an anecdote about one of the "Green Mountain Boys" in management who would proudly display his purchased Vermont P.E. license - though he was working nearly exclusively in New York, and the sum of his work consisted of project management and planning. ...the geezer telling the story was kind of ticked that he spent six months prepping for the exam...
I suspect that there are countries with boards of engineers who award the P.E. or similar based on demonstrated experience/excellence, just not in the US and Canada and the UK.
I don't see anything wrong with boards of experienced graybeards evaluating an engineer's work and declaring him/her as "one of us." But I sure do see the logistical and beaurocratic nightmarish experience this would be.
RE: PE license by exam????
For more on current requirements, on a state by state basis, see the link at this FAQ765-1162
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: PE license by exam????
RE: PE license by exam????
In about 10-15 more years all of the transitional PE's will be out of the profession and every PE in the US will have taken the exams. People will still be having this discussion for another 50 years beyond that.
David
RE: PE license by exam????
http://
pretty much the same thing at http://www.engineeringlicense.com/licensure/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
RE: PE license by exam????
I think they went to an exam because many Texas PEs were being refused comity in other states and to improve their image.
RE: PE license by exam????
Now, as far as I know, Texas does still have a waiver for the exam, but to even get considered for that, you've got to have a qualifying degree and twelve years of experience, along with nine letters of recommendation instead of the usual five. And, even at that, you wouldn't be able to get a PE in another state by reciprocity/comity if you didn't have the exam.
Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas
"All the world is a Spring"
All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.
RE: PE license by exam????
In fact, I couldn't even take the PE exam UNTIL I got licensed there.
After getting the PE, I then took the PE test, passed it, and then eventually moved to another state. I have had no problem whatsoever getting comity in the 20 other states in which I'm licensed. So as long as you take the test, you can get comity. But if you got your Texas PE and then never took the test, the other states would see that you didn't meet THEIR minimum criteria and deny the license. This sort of thing is true everywhere - that states will not accept comity if your "home" state doesn't have the same requirements as they do.
RE: PE license by exam????
In my case I took a 3 year Engineering course and got a Diploma. In the US it would be an Associate Degree. I challeneged 12 exams succesfully and have 10 years experience. I expect my PE by spring.
Texas won't recognize my PE even though there is an agreement to recognize PE's from my province because I do not have a Degree. Other states will.
I don't need it for my employment here. So whatever. But it is a messed up system that has transfer agreements that don't mean squat.
I could probably go down the road and by a degree by taking some humanities course or such and that would be okay.
RE: PE license by exam????
I'm not all that happy about this, and not just because it's a pain in the patootie. To document the experience I have to get my boss and my boss's boss (a.k.a. my ex-boss) to sign a piece of paper that implies rather strongly that I'm looking elsewhere. I tell them all the time that I'm looking elsewhere, but in the back of their minds they still tell themselves I don't really mean it. Taking steps to get licensed elsewhere is a pretty strong statement of lack of commitment to staying here, and might hurt my chances of promotion & raises. Sure, I can say I'm keeping my possibilities open, looking a few years down the road, and it'll be true, but it'll raise some eyebrows.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: PE license by exam????
can you just get an ncees record. that way you can tell your boss you are simply doing it incase you need it. then transfer the experiance record to ny via the records program. it is more expensive but may be politically better
RE: PE license by exam????
The NCEES route is the one I took when I was trying to decide if I could make it on my own. My management was really supportive of my getting a NCEES record. I don't know that all bosses suffer from the magnitude of tunnel vision that mine did, but I've rarely seen a boss that didn't have a bit of that affliction. The biggest downside to the NCEES record is having to get another PE to write you a reference every year verifying one more year of experience.
It really does make the whole comity thing a lot easier.
David
RE: PE license by exam????
I'm still irritated at having to go through it all again...
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: PE license by exam????
This explicitly prohibits the states from setting any requirements for reciprocity. Each state may set their own requirements for licensure but MUST accept the license of any other state. Only Congress has this authority and, to my knowledge, has not used it for engineering or other professional licensure. Can anyone show me how this is legal?
RE: PE license by exam????
RE: PE license by exam????
John
RE: PE license by exam????
Hence, PE fall under Provincial jurisdiction, and you need to be accredited in each province that you work in.
RE: PE license by exam????
As for State vs. Federal, the 10th Amendment reads: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." That says that States get to set their own rules. Article IV, as I read it, says that CA, for example, must honor rulings in TX--e.g., CA cannot protect a fugitive found guilty in TX even if the particular crime is not illegal in CA. I'm not a Constitutional scholar, by any stretch, but when you apply Art. IV to licenses, you delve into a whole host of issues, material for a different forum.
On a separate, but related, note: what seal is required for Federal work, like on military installations?
RE: PE license by exam????
On federal work - no seal is usually required unless the department requires one. I've designed Corps of Engineer plans without any seal (like for Dept. of Defense work) and on others I've simply placed my home state seal to simply show that I am licensed somewhere...which was the main requirement for the project anyway.
Only in a few cases, when there's time, will I actually get the local state license simply as a matter of form, not for a legal requirement.
RE: PE license by exam????
The states have no authority to establish reciprocity agreements, and are explicitly prohibited from doing so without the consent of congress (a federal law that allows them to do so). I site the following excerpts from the U.S. Constitiution as my reference:
Section I article 8: The Congress shall have Power…To regulate Commerce … among the several States, …
Section I article 9: No Preference shall be given by any Regulation of Commerce or Revenue to the Ports of one State over those of another….
Section I article 10: “No State shall, without the Consent of Congress … enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State ….
Amendment 10: The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
I repeat my question, can anyone tell me of a federal law that allows the states this authority?
RE: PE license by exam????
http://
RE: PE license by exam????
I realize the states have been doing this for years but that does not mean that it is lawful for them to do so. Unless the US congress passes (or passed one that I have been unable to find) a law allowing the states to regulate interstate professional services, then reciprocity laws are illegal.
RE: PE license by exam????
Reciprocity/comity laws are not illegal, because they are not agreements between states. They are laws enacted by an individual state, applying only to that state, recognizing that other states have licensing requirements sufficiently similar to their own. It is nothing more than a way of streamlining the licensure process--the applicant has already met the requirements, so he/she need not be thoroughly reviewed again. And in every state, you still must demonstrate to that state that you meet their minimum requirements.
It is the duty of states to protect their citizens. Pursuant to that duty is the right to regulate the practice of engineering, a right granted to the states by the 10th Amendment. Licensing of engineers is less about trade and commerce than about protecting the public. Therefore, I believe if it were challenged, the state’s duty to protect its citizens would take precedence over the Congress’ power to regulate interstate commerce.
To look at it another way, I’m sure our CA friends would be offended at the notion that the aforementioned “Green Mountain Boys”, with their “bought” licenses, should be allowed to design a building on a CA fault.
RE: PE license by exam????
RE: PE license by exam????
I am certainly not a lawyer but I certainly thought that reciprocity laws were agreements or compacts between states. Is there any case where State "A" accepts the license of State "B" but "B" does not accept "A"'s?
I do not recall a duty of the states to protect their citizens. Could you provide a situation? Shouldn't this concern for safety also apply to drivers licenses? After all a person from rural West Texas (such as myself) couldn't be expected to handle the traffic congestion of say New York or California.
RE: PE license by exam????
RE: PE license by exam????
Each state simply reviews the qualifications of the state the applicant is coming from and, if similar or greater than their own, they accept those qualifications simply to streamline the process of licensure.
I also suggest that your view that -the states can't do such and such without the feds approval- actually should be reversed. The US constitution relegates most autonomy to the states, reserving only directly specified functions to the feds. (I think its the 10th amendment). This was explained to me by someone some time ago.
Similar concept to driver's licenses...states do all the licensing, get all the fees, but allow out-of-state drivers to drive with their out-of-state licenses.
RE: PE license by exam????
The nice thing about this version of the Constitution is they've highlighted any part that has been modified or superseeded by amendments and Article IV, Section 1 has not bee modified.
That seems to say that if New Mexico has a "public Act" that defines the requirements for designation as a PE, and I meet those requirements and am designated as a PE in New Mexico, then no other state can say I'm not a PE.
Maybe I'm just being too literal here.
David
RE: PE license by exam????
Perhaps you are basically correct here, that the states should and must allow comity when the license requirements are equal. But this still doesn't mean that the state doesn't have the right/obligation to review your qualifications, and then charge you a fee to administer that license.
RE: PE license by exam????
RE: PE license by exam????
I'm not seeing it. Until recently you could get a drivers licence in New Mexico at 14 years old. A friend's son did that and then a few days later got a ticket in Colorado (minimum age 16) for speeding. His ticket was for speeding, not underage driving because Colorado had to honor a valid New Mexico dirvers license.
Each state has the right and obligation to develop standards for performance of a licensed task (like practicing medicine, driving a vehicle, or practicing engineering), but don't they also have to give "full faith and Credit" to someone who satisfied the legal requirements of another state?
David
RE: PE license by exam????
I seem to recall a case where a PE, licensed in State A, stamped an engineering report, or maybe he merely signed the cover letter as John Doe, PE, for a project in State B. This person was not licensed in State B. Someone in State B reported him to the PE Board for falsely representing himself as a PE. I think the Board found him guilty, and likely assessed a fine.
I think this was presented in Alfred Pagan's column in CE News Magazine about a year or two ago. I don't remember the outcome, however. I DO remember, though, thinking that I would have to careful with how I represent myself in the future.
RE: PE license by exam????
I live in Texas. Why don't I pay state income taxes? It's the law in Ohio (and numerous others). Why doesn't my car have to meet CA emissions standards? States set their own laws. "Full faith and credit" means states have to respect each other's laws, not adopt them. Texas cannot prevent me from practicing in Oklahoma.
As for the drivers license thing, I think it's more of an issue of states choosing to honor, rather than having to honor, each other's licenses. It is simply not practical to require a new drivers license for each state you plan to visit. Nevertheless, a state could choose to enforce just that. If New Mexico suddenly allowed 12 year olds to drive, I think Colorado would be reluctant to allow that. The scope and extent of "Full faith and credit" will soon be clearly defined, I think, with the whole marriage license issue (social issue--not for this forum).
RE: PE license by exam????
No. If you review the Professional Engineering Act in most, if not all, States the introduction of the Act states the purpose which is to protect the health, welfare and safety of the Public. The Act creates a licensing board composed of “x” number of individuals charged with granting licensure based on specific requirements. This public act is law and approved by the State Legislature. States are not obligated to regulate Professions, they choose to do so. Most States have a Department that is called Professional Regulation. A driver’s license and fishing license do not fall under this category. States regulate their own requirements and limitations for these types of licenses for their residents, and non-residents. A marriage license is like a birth certificate or death certificate and would be a matter of pubic record for the State and would fall under Article IV, Section I of the US constitution.
Reciprocity of Professional Engineering licenses lies with the Professional Licensing Board of each State, as provided by the rules of the Professional Engineering Act. As such, Licensing Boards have significant latitude in determining licensing requirements to assure protection of public health, welfare and safety. If a Board so chooses, they could grant reciprocity from another State. Licensing Boards are obligated to review a submittal for licensure to practice engineering in their particular State. If you fulfill the licensing requirements imposed by the Board, you are granted a license to practice engineering.
RE: PE license by exam????
Crossframe, I suspect the engineer in question also was fined by his state board as well. At least that’s the way Texas does it (Texas Administrative Code, Title 22, Part 6, Chapter 137, Subchapter C, §137.65).
I think this issue would have to be tried in a Federal court to be resolved.
RE: PE license by exam????
If an engineer/firm has a office/facility in a state, then he must comply with that states license law, just as a retail company would have to collect sales taxes in any state they have a “brick and mortar” location. I cannot see any legal standing in preventing an engineer or company from offering his services or products across state lines.
Yes, the states do it and have for years but that doesn’t mean it’s correct or legal.
RE: PE license by exam????
But the point I was trying to make is that a broad interpretation of the "full faith and credit" clause, taken to the extreme, would mean that any law ("public Act") passed in one state has to be enforced by all states. That would defeat the concept of state autonomy.
I contend that a state gets to regulate what goes on within its borders (take speed limits, for example). Like davidbeach said earlier, regardless of where the calculations are performed, or the drawings produced, the end product of engineering takes place within the borders of a state, and is subject to that state's regulations.
Clearly, there is a line somewhere, and the question at hand is, "Where is that line?". That will have to be determined by people far more intelligent than I. Till then, I just play by the rules as I know them.
RE: PE license by exam????
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.
In other words, if the constitution doesn't specifically grant the feds a power, they don't have it...and the states keep the power.
Yes, this has been violated many times (try to find the Dept. of Education in the constitution). But its still the basis of our country - we are the United States....not a federal country managed by local governments. Each state has an autonomy, the likes of which is not found in other country's governmental forms.
Article I, Section 8 - To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
Hmmm...not sure how this applies to engineering unless you see that an engineer in state X wants to practice in state Y and that is a form of commerce. But licensing an engineer by state Y is simply their way of ENSURING that the engineer is indeed adequate to the task via the license in state X - nothing in that that violates this section in my view.
Article I, Section. 9. - I don't see anything in this one
Article I, Section 10 - No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress.
Engineering practice is not an import of a product. It is the practice of a professional service. Don't see how this applies either.
Article. IV.
Section. 1.
Full Faith and Credit shall be given in each State to the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State. And the Congress may by general Laws prescribe the Manner in which such Acts, Records and Proceedings shall be proved, and the Effect thereof.
This applies to "public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings". I don't see how licensing engineers, or requiring a fee to license engineers, violates this section. Is licensing of engineers a "public act" of a state in the sense given here? Perhaps. But even so, if the engineer is qualified to practice engineering to the level required by the state, then comity is allowed. So the mere presence of comity means that they ARE providing for the full faith and credit of the other state.
The difference sometimes shows up in the fact that some states may perceive a unique requirement to practice in their state that is above and beyond the other state. California with high seismic, Illinois with high seismic, Alaska with perma-frost, etc. These are not denying full faith and credit, simply ensuring public safety.
That's my take on it - but as you can easily see...I'm an engineer - not a lawyer.
RE: PE license by exam????
I agree with Rholder98 that the states may regulate what goes on within their borders. The problem occurs when the state tries to regulate what goes on beyond its borders. Take the California emissions regulations of vehicles as an example. I think most of us would agree that there is certainly a great deal of engineering involved in this product and it certainly can affect the individual and public safety. Fortunately, CA will allow outsiders to visit in substandard vehicles but they really don’t have to, at least not by anything I can find in the law. In other words, I believe that CA has the legal authority to allow only certain vehicles that meet CA’s standards to be operated within its borders.
On the other hand, I do not believe that CA has the authority to require that the engineers designing the vehicle must be licensed in CA. Nor do the assemblers have to belong to CA union or meet CA’s labor laws.
Merenger brings up an excellent point in that the “Professional Engineering Act in most, if not all, States the introduction of the Act states the purpose which is to protect the health, welfare and safety of the Public.”, and certainly it is within the states rights to do this. (So why will CA allow visitors to bring substandard vehicles into its borders and endanger the public? Hum?) Again, I agree that the state has the authority to enforce standards of design and construction for products within its borders. If the engineer/firm has a physical location within the state, then the engineer/firm falls under the states authority.
If a bridge or multistory building is built on site in the state of “X”, then “X” has the authority to require that its design codes, inspection laws, material specifications, welding certifications and labor laws be met.
If the bridge is built in another state and shipped to “X”, then “X” may require the bridge to meet all of “X”’s requirements, but it has lost the ability to enforce its inspection and labor laws during the construction phase unless specified in the contract.
I just cannot see how “X” can require a citizen of another state, that never even steps across the border, must be licensed in “X’.
I am also unconvinced that professional licensure is not a public act and thus outside the scope of Article IV. I am required by law to have the license to practice. My name, address, telephone number, discipline, license number, date of issue and date of expiration are all listed on the state board’s website. How much more public can it get?
As I interpret the “full faith and credit” clause, all the states must accept and recognize the laws, records and proceedings of the other states. Another state may not send a rescue party to Texas to free our death row inmates. All states accept the marriage and drivers licenses of the other states. Companies do not have to file for incorporation in each state in which they provide a service or sell a product.
JAE, I’m not sure what you mean regarding the 10th Amendment. Yes, it provides that the states or the people have all the power unless they are specifically granted to the feds or prohibited to the states.
As for weather the practice of engineering is a form commerce, I would guess that greater than 90% of engineering is performed for a business purpose or some kind of remuneration and thus commerce. Perhaps I am being too literal here but that would be my justification for referencing Article I sections 8-10
In closing this long post, I can’t pass up excerpting my fine states law on comity. ...the board has reviewed the licensing requirements of the jurisdictions listed in this paragraph and has found them to be substantially equivalent to the requirements in Texas. ... The board does not recognize any U.S. state or territory for reciprocity or comity at this time.
RE: PE license by exam????
Exactly. Texas cannot tell me I'm qualified--or not--to design a building in California. Texas is only concerned with what gets built within its own borders. But the building/bridge you mentioned falls under the jurisdiction of the state in which it is ultimately located, where it will be used by the public. States don't try to regulate who can practice engineering elsewhere--they regulate who can practice engineering in their own jurisdiction.
This has been a lot of fun. I enjoy having to think. How about this from the 14th Amendment: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall. . .deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." So if state A says that state B's engineers may automatically practice in state A, isn't A denying equal protection to A's own engineers? Isn't A denying equal protection to the users of the B engineers' designs? We could go on all day.
I guess it all boils down to "Full faith and credit..." vs. the 10th Amendment. The funny thing is that this whole issue was probably dealt with and decided a long time ago.
RE: PE license by exam????
And thus, the concept of the 10th - that the federal government is limited in its powers and the default should always go to the states, has been lost on much of the public.
We're like frogs in water that's gradually brought up to boiling.
RE: PE license by exam????
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: PE license by exam????
The constitution doesn't simply dish out portions of power between the states and the feds. It assumes that the states have ALL the power, and explicitly limits the powers given to the feds.