What would you do?
What would you do?
(OP)
This question for me is years over but I thought about it the other day and I would like to hear what others would have done given the situation.
On a normal day working in your office and told to come to a mandatory meeting about the United Way (large US charity). At the meeting there you see the entire office staff. They give you a pamplet and donation form with your name and address printed on it.
The city or county United Way rep gives a speech about who they are and thier services to the community. The services are many but most of which I haven't heard of before. Shows a 25 minute film going into detail about thier services. Then another speech about need, donations and a justification about giving money followed by the amount that is normal for the employees in the room to give; 10% of the annual salary. Finally asking you to have a nice day and please fill out the form and hand it to the rep as you exit. What would you do???
The form has a big check box for 10% of salary followed by a smaller section for a cash donation.
Other than the outcome, which I will tell amongst the anticipated replies, that is all the information I knew up to the moment I made a decision on what to do.
On a normal day working in your office and told to come to a mandatory meeting about the United Way (large US charity). At the meeting there you see the entire office staff. They give you a pamplet and donation form with your name and address printed on it.
The city or county United Way rep gives a speech about who they are and thier services to the community. The services are many but most of which I haven't heard of before. Shows a 25 minute film going into detail about thier services. Then another speech about need, donations and a justification about giving money followed by the amount that is normal for the employees in the room to give; 10% of the annual salary. Finally asking you to have a nice day and please fill out the form and hand it to the rep as you exit. What would you do???
The form has a big check box for 10% of salary followed by a smaller section for a cash donation.
Other than the outcome, which I will tell amongst the anticipated replies, that is all the information I knew up to the moment I made a decision on what to do.
_______________________________________
Feeling frisky.........
www.tailofthedragon.com





RE: What would you do?
As with any charity I would give an amount if I felt it did work that I felt was worthy, in all truth many do but you have to be selective.
Would I sign over 10% of my salary, absolutely no way.
RE: What would you do?
I don't think I'd have a problem handing back the blank form in this situation, although I'd probably make some comment about keeping my wages and my charitable donations separate and not involving the company I work for. Unless the employer plans on matching employees donations, the charity doesn't benefit by the donation coming from my wages and they can't prove I'm not donating in some other way.
RE: What would you do?
RE: What would you do?
One thing I like to do durng the presentations is ask qustions like [i]"How much does the president of the United Way make?" and [i]"What fraction of each dollar actuallly makes it to charities?". The United Way is horribly inefficient in getting donated dollars to the organiations it supports. They just plain waste too much. I prefer to give my money directly to specific organizations.
I belong to a civic organization that has its own charities. I give to those, because I can see where the money goes.
RE: What would you do?
Participating in benevolence is a matter of choice and you should do what you feel comfortable with. While money is most often the request, other organizations are thrilled to receive material donations as well as volunteer time.
Regards,
RE: What would you do?
That being said, it doesn't actually hurt you to waste your time in such a meeting, as it sounds you were still thinking clearly enough to ask the important questions.
RE: What would you do?
RE: What would you do?
I guess my point is that I wad up the form and throw it away on my way out of the meeting.
RE: What would you do?
My gripe with the United Way is that they include a lot of charities and you may not want to give to ALL of them. Lets face it no one wants to give money to BOTH sides of the abortion issue.
They claim that you can earmark your contribution to include or exclude specific charities but that is not the case. Let’s say that “My Favorite Charity” is to receive say 100,000 from the campaign. If I give them $100 directly then they will end up with $100,100 in total. If I give through the United Way and earmark them for $100 then they will get my $100 plus only 99,900 from the common united way pool.
Only of the total given directly to “My Favorite Charity” is in excess of the $100,000 will they get any more money.
The same happens in reverse if you do not want any money to go to “Not My Favorite Charity”
If the United Way meets its funding goals the end result of all the allocations will be that everyone gets what they would have had no one made any specific contributions, unless there was a huge imbalance in the assignments of those giving.
For the last several years I have been looking for ways to simply cut out the middlemen and all the overhead and give my charity donations in as a direct a manner as possible. For example my sister is a teacher for a disadvantaged school. I simply send her with my bank card to the office supply store at the back to school specials and let her buy what she needs and will use in the classroom. No middle men, no overhead, all my money is spent wisely on the needs of the kids at risk.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
When they send you the email reminding you to complete your form send them the link to one of the sites like Charity Watch. It will tell you the guy who runs the Salvation Army gets less than 10 grand a year, the one who runs UW gets more that you and five of your friends.
Tell your boss your sorry his esteem among his fellow executives has to suffer but you figured the needs of the bum sleeping in the doorway are greated than his needs to smooze.
RE: What would you do?
I was taken to "team" meeting, given the pitch and then handed the election form and told that I must indicate my election, even if none. At $14.70 per hour I didn't have much to spare after my SoCal rent and buying the required outfits of silk ties, wool slacks, etc. So, I discretely folded up my form and walked out. I was called into the Director's office the next day and told that my form was missing and that I had to fill it out in front of her.
During the third year, I began to complain about the strong-arm tactics. As punishment, I was put on the UW committee the following year. Shortly after that, I was laid off.
I've held UW in complete contempt since then.
What would I do now? Refuse to sign the form. What did I do then? Capitulate.
Some of the senior guys would sign up for $0.03 per paycheck. Another guy handed them a $2 bill and called it good.
Even aside from the valid arguments of executive pay (and remember the NY penthouse/pvt jet scandal 10 years back?) and middle-man cut, their style is so odious to me that I'd never have anything to do with them now.
What should you do? It just depends on where you are in the pecking order and how confident you are in ruffling feathers.
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Bring back the HP-15
www.hp15c.org
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RE: What would you do?
I don't give to United Way. I give to others. They don't get 10% of my salary.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: What would you do?
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Of course for major disaster relief like the Tsunami, Katrina and the Pakistani earthquake that approach does not work.
I do also give to the major established charities for this sort of thing but tend to do the bulk of my giving closer to home. It is quite satisfying to know that your money went to give some child their first book and not to support some executive lifestyle of people managing the charity.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
(keeping in mind that I also get these cards every year, write in $0, return them, and then donate to my own charities directly)...
1. The whole concept of UW is that it allows lots of charities to solicit donations under one roof, thereby minimizing a million different individual solicitation managers and departments. This is a good thing and reduces the "middle man" costs immensely.
2. The coziness betweeen UW and corporations who call "mandatory" meetings is not illegal at all. A private business can call any meeting it wants and ask its employees to listen. The employee still can say $0 and/or still can leave the company freely if they want. What the corp. cannot do is apply pressure to donate (i.e. your job or future promotions are contingnent upon you donating). That can be fine line or can be difficult to prove, but it is true never the less. The donations should be such that only a few non-upper-management individuals deal with the individual card donation amounts and thus the supervisors should never know who gives how much.
3. Here is a link to UW's evaluation report from the Better Business Bureau. Fund raising expenses were < 1% of the funds received... I don't know how their non-fund raising expenses panned out, though. United Way BBB Report. They do get a great deal of efficiency out of asking for volunteers to serve during the annual fund raising events. This drives down the costs tremendously.
4. To simply point to a few executives that get paid a lot to manage the UW is like pointing out the small scratch on an otherwise beautiful classic automobile....
5. One last point: by combining all these charities under one roof and using a large-scale fund raising event each year, I would think that this increases the visibility of the whole idea of giving to charity that a lot of people wouldn't have under other circumstances. So for all of us who give to individual charities, great - wonderful thing to do. For a lot of other people who don't have charities on their radar, the UW would seem to be a way to allow the "community" of our country to stimulate giving.
Again - I don't give to this group for my own reasons, but there is some validity in what they do and who they are.
RE: What would you do?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: What would you do?
There isn't any way I could have described how much they were working for the money. They didn't have a written mandatory policy for the 10% but they sure made it clear that is what they wanted. My observation was that employees felt pressed, most seemed agitated. HR was collecting the cards which means they would be reviewing them. This was a poor area and even though we were a major company, many employees were not making much money.
Corporate culture: It was a small community so I think the brownie points were for the off-site corporate office. This company also had people signed up, mandatory, for the blood drive. All fodder for the company newsletter/boardroom.
Yeah, a co-worker came up with something similar to this and I thought it kinda cruel; they have to pay money to transfer three cents!!???
What did I do? Handed the director of HR a blank form and a twenty dollar bill on top. Saw her dissapointment and she handed it back to me saying I didn't fill out the form. I laid them on the table, asked if she wanted a donation and exited back to work.
Oh, "chaf" there is no catch. I kept the story open as much as I could. No pressure from me!
_______________________________________
Feeling frisky.........
www.tailofthedragon.com
RE: What would you do?
I too am shocked by 10%. It's rare enough that people tithe like that to their churches, let alone to some charity they're less personally connected to. Hell, I can't even budget to put 10% into a retirement account. And I'll tell ya, two years ago I won a prize for being the biggest donor in my entire division (several hundred people), with something paltry like $30/month. 10% is NOT a typical US workplace donation.
[Actually the prize was the director's parking spot, but I didn't work in that building, so I didn't get a prize in the end.]
It's not just management scandals that some people find problematic with UW. Not everyone supports every charity that UW funds, and in many of those campaigns there is no way to earmark donations.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: What would you do?
Top be exact I'm pissed off at the companies and bosses who do this not the UW, its like they're offering up their employees as sacrifices to the guilt gods.
I'm glad my employer doesn't do that, or they'd have one heck of a disgruntled employee on their hands.
RE: What would you do?
We had a UW presentation to our small group of employees, and, since I was young, single, professional, etc. with no family to support at the time, I believed it was my responsibility to give generously. I opted for the payroll deduction method of giving. (I don't remember the percentage anymore, but it was generous).
During this time, due to several poor business decisions by the Owners, the company was starting to go "into the tank". Eventually, the company went out of business,(bankrupt), and the Owners were forced to take other jobs to pay off their loans/debts. All of us were laid off, but, since I didn't have a new job yet, I agreed to stay and help close out the remaining projects, along with the Secretary and Bookkeeper for the company.
It was sometime during this closeout phase, I was having lunch with the Secretary/Bookkeeper, and I asked something about what would happen to the UW payroll deduction donations we all gave. She told me that the company had stopped forwarding that money to UW some time ago, and our donations were helping pay off the company debt. Needless to say, I was extremely p*ssed off - not at UW, but at the unethical CEO. Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to confront him about it.
Moral of the story: I don't give automatic payroll deductions to anyone anymore, and, like many other of the posts here, I give to individual charities directly.
RE: What would you do?
RE: What would you do?
so what, big deal that one choose not to contribute. that is your own business and not your employer.
as far as team building, your choice to contribute has no bearing whatsoever in the outcome of the team goals (professionally speaking); unless the team goal is solely fund contributions. even then, a poor judgement/decision by corporate management by not honoring and respecting the rights of employees.
frankly, i have and will continue to ignore any requests for contributions to unsuitable and questionable campaigns and organizations. you have the right to deny & by all means, do not feel guilty - i don't.
-pmover
RE: What would you do?
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
RE: What would you do?
I get very defensive when put in a hard sale position.
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RE: What would you do?
In the same company there was a cabal of managers who were ministers of the big church on the hill overlooking the plant. Of course they favored their own. In the evangelical churches 10% is the tithe with more required as "free will offering." I was fired by one of those ministers. My wife wonders why I haven't warmed up to the church after all these years.
RE: What would you do?
If it was a true charitable organization, the CEO and the rest of the staff would be volunteers rather than making a bigger salary than I'll ever see.
They also lost with "fertility clinics" in areas that were already on economic assistance or catered to illegal immigrants. That's just plain WRONG.
I'll donate to those who I decide have a legitimate need - not some for profit company preying on the weak sheep of America.
"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein
RE: What would you do?
In the US, it is unethical to REQUIRE donations. Additionally, make sure that your company is not giving charities your home address or phone number without your consent. Several ethical and legal breaches associated with that.
HR and management should know better than to pressure employees into making donations. That creates an unsafe work enviornment. And if an employee that felt pressured went to a reporter, it would create extreemly bad PR for the company. I mean if that's the way they treat their employees, how will they deal with their customers??? And who would want to work there in the future?
Don't get me started about any company that discriminates against an employee that chooses not to participate in the company sponsored event.
I am fortuante to work for a company that recognizes all of this (it is required training to understand the do's and do not's for managers, legally and ethically). Additionally, I believe good companies will match, in part or full, any charitable contributions you make to qualified organizations. I mean it's just good PR. (These boards are making me appreciate where I work more and more.)
Hopefully this experience has not soured you against giving. I personally find personal satisfaction and joy in giving generously to charities... and I find that freely given generosity is paid back many times over.
Bottom line: ignore them and focus on enjoying your family, friends, and hopefully your career.
Hope that helps.
RE: What would you do?
I tend to make more waves than most when it comes to work place issues and I know I would come up with some tactful way to protest this action while still being marginally within the bounds of my employers rules. No its never cost me a job, but has given me promotions for the employers who want leaders - those not afraid to speak their mind when it is called for and who can rally the troops to protest such a blatant request to improve their employers perks from outside associations. Obviously, the UW is giving kickbacks somewhere, somehow, or why would an employer allow someone to waist 30 minutes of every employees time (has to be a lot of money)?
Craziness.
RE: What would you do?
It may be considered illegal and unethical to force someone to contribute to a specific charity or to even attend a meeting about the charity.
However is a business setting appearing to be a part of the team is all important. I would not make waves about it but simply and quietly declare that I give personally, privately and directly to the charities of my choice.
Its like the thread about having to socialize with other team members. If you stick out as someone who goes against the grain you will be the first to suffer in times of cutbacks and in choice of assignments.
Remember that it is the nail that stick out that gets hammered down.
Laws, morals and ethics have nothing to do with it. It is simply human nature.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
Sometimes that nail with his head sticking up is the last one to hold things together.
Cheers & Merry Christmas,
CanuckMiner P.Eng. (MN, among others)
RE: What would you do?
I’m going to draw some similarities between this thread, the one on socializing that is still active and the one a little while ago about the new applicant with body tattoos.
Humans are a group animal, we tent to travel in packs and we also have within our packs a well developed hierarchy.
Since we are social animals we use social clues to determine who is who in the pecking order and how to recognize others of like personalities and interests.
Take clothing for example. In any office there is a dress code. It may not be written down or even enforced in any formal manner but there is a real dress code. In some offices it may be suits and ties and in others it may be grudge style. But never forget that there is a real dress code. Violate it and you are not only violating a dress code but you are showing that you do not belong to that group.
Look at teenagers. They dress in standard styles that determine what group that they belong to, jock, nerd, preppie, druggie etc. Within these groups there are minor variations of clothing that determine which sub group they belong to and their place within that group. Think that it is coincidence that the alpha personality in any group is the most stylish dressed (by that groups standards) of that group?
In the adult world things are a little more subdued. It is more minor variations of dress and behavior that determine what group and where in the group people are. There is however no chance of someone observing almost any organization mistaking the CEO for a janitor.
Why do you think that the HR types advise to dress in the manner that you would dress for an important meeting on the job when you go for the interview? It is so that you will show that you fit in to the organization that is considering that you apply for admittance to and by dressing slightly better than the average daily dress you are showing that respect the organization and the people in it.
Same with office socializing. By conforming to the group norms you are showing that you belong and that are respectful of the group and its members. If socializing is the cultural norm in any position they to survive in the organization you have to socialize. If office socializing is not a part of the office culture then trying to organize an office bowling team is a futile effort.
Same with charity support. If the office wants to support a charity then to loudly and openly oppose the charity is to show that you do not belong to the group. Best to voice your opposition quietly and privately if at all.
Where do these norms develop? They come from the top. Senior management wants to promote those in the group who appear to belong and support the group. Thus middle managers reflect the attitudes of those above them and cultivate the same attitudes and behaviors in those below them.
Senior managers have no time and often lack the skills to determine who far below them is contributing the most. They do however have the skills to determine who is conforming to group norms of dress and behavior.
Take a look at some typical work places and you will see many other examples of how people in the office tend to conform. Some offices will have a lot of jocks and sport fans in them. Invariably the head guy will be a sports fan. Some offices will have people in them, who attend the ballet, Want to bet that the head honcho has season tickets?
I once worked for the Canadian Armed Forces. Whatever sport the current base commander followed was the one that the majority of the people participated in. I used to swim at noon. When a new base commander came in who also swam at noon within a month the number of noon swimmers had tripled. The number of swimmers at other times also increased significantly, even when the commander was not in the pool.
We once had a base commander who wanted to promote the idea of having Sunday nights as a family dining in night. All he started to do was to go to the mess on Sunday nights and within six weeks the place was full on Sunday nights.
Since I was in the pool the first day that the commander came for a swim and happened to be taking my family out for supper the night that the base commander first came for supper I was during the tenure of these two commanders almost bullet proof. It had nothing to do with any change in my abilities or performance but everything toi do with the fact that I was demonstrating behaviors that the base commander agreed with and that became the base norm.
You may consider that the people who came swimming or late for dinner were simply sucking you to the commander or you may see that they were demonstrating that they belonged in command because they behaved as a commander. The fact remains that they were conforming to group norms as demonstrated by the commander.
Why a lot of engineers cannot see and understand these simple facts of human nature is beyond me. All too often we want to be rebels and fly in the face of group norms and loudly declare that we will let our work stand for itself and the hell with what anyone thinks about us personally. That only works for the one in a million who never makes a mistake.
Violate group norms and when (notice when not if) you make a mistake it will be the one that hangs you. The group will use this as an excuse to turn on you. They will not be attacking you for the error but because you have shown that you do not belong in the group and they will be removing and isolating you from the group because of this not the error.
Ever wonder why some people can get away with being royal screw-up and others are fired for one small mistake? It is because the survivors are fully part of the group and the departed are the ones who violate group norms.
Now before you attack me on this notice I never made any value judgments on whether or not this is examples of good and proper behavior? I did not because these are simply laws of human behavior as strong and as valid as the law of gravity. To fight against or to ignore these behaviors is like fighting against or ignoring the law of gravity. Sooner or later you will fall.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
There are rules for success in every employment situation. The key is figuring out those rules and living by them. If the rules offend your sensibilities or your ethics, then it is time to find a new job.
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
RE: What would you do?
When we studied this in my MBA orgizational behavior classes those with no managerial work experience could not believe that things were so screwed up in the real world, those of us with some experience had stories to top any in the book.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
Societies norms are a little disturbing, ever watch any TV? This will indicate quit well what the norms are for society or whats acceptable.
There are some serious consequences to 'following the norm'. One tends to lose touch with who they are and what they stand for. Is not this independant thinking what made the US what it is today? We had a war over our desire to not fit in with the norm of the day. In following the norm, people start to define themselves by the group definition. Then, ultimately, they find themselves believing and following anything the leader of the group says or does. In extreme cases your left with incidents like Waco, TX or the other cult disasters.
Ever see the movie the Firm? This is what your promoting.
RE: What would you do?
I am not proposing that a person pursue success by becoming a mindless drone....
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
RE: What would you do?
Its not the money, its the fact the company is applying pressure to participate in an activity which should be left for after work. I would revolt based on this alone. Of course, it would depend on first hand knowledge of the circumstances and not a brief explantion in an internet forum to say what I may do for sure.
I guess independant thinking is no longer the norm or maybe its not really the independant thinking but the independant acting. More people need to get spines and stand up for what they feel is right or wrong, as the case may be. Everyone in here has said that it is not a good idea to do what this company is, yet hardly anyone is willing to stand up and say something about it because its 'against the grain'. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the people at this company disagree with these special meetings. None of them will say a word because they are followers and have no spines and will leave it up to a real leader to take up the cause. Done creatively, the UW would not be having any more meetings at my place of work or they would be poorly attended.
Sad to see these types of posts encouraging participation in a group just because they are the popular group. Maybe I should clone the leader and walk all of them off a cliff.
RE: What would you do?
I read a book about the definition of beauty once, forget the title, but the basic (scientifically-backed) premise was that the closer to the "average" look you had, the more attractive you would be - to a point. The truly exceptionally beautiful people would be very close to the average, but with some striking difference - Cindy Crawford's mole for instance.
I think it's much the same within a group dynamic. People who follow along and blend in will get along just fine, but people who have a special something in addition will be the ones on top.
RE: What would you do?
I am not going to accept something because the group accepts it. We have all heard someone say "Well its worked fine and we have done it that way for years". If everyone accepted the groups opinion, then where would be be?
I don't disagree with RDK's observations concerning running with the pack. All too many of us fall into this. I am just not one of them. If someone disagrees with something, you should speak up. I am not saying go in a raise cane with the boss but you can politely deliver your opinion rather than tell everyone about your opinion except the people that can do something about it. As I said, everyone agrees this should not be occurring but yet no one has said they have voiced their concerns or suggested voicing their concerns to someone with authority. Why is that? Because of our desire to run with the pack (at least most peoples desire)? I would agree that this is why most would not speak up but it is NOT a valid reason for not speaking up.
I still can't believe this type of thing happens in the US. I guess I have been fortunate not to run across this before with all the commonalities amongst the posters.
RE: What would you do?
Where did I say anything about blindly running with the pack?
Even the leader of the pack is one member of the group.
Even the leader has to participate in the group norms or the group will no longer recognize him or her as the leader.
If you want to pick a battle then pick it on something that matters. Having to spend a few minutes or even an hour of time that you have sold to someone else and are getting paid for to attend a meeting is not one that I would consider worth fighting over.
Go ahead and fight against group norms; however at the risk of spoiling the suspense I can tell you right now that you will lose.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
I go back to my original point, doesn't matter if it is hockey or corporate existance, there are rules to the game, and if you break the rules you end up in the penalty box. I prefer to spend my time on the ice making things happen and contributing to goal scoring. If you don't know the rules, learn them, if you can't abide by the rules, find a different game. Like it or not that is one of the most important keys to career success, assuming that success is defined by promotions, raises, etc...
I once had an engineer working for me that I had a number of issues with, but none of them serious enough to fire him over. I sat down with this guy, told him the areas he needed to work on and why, and told him he wasn't going to get a raise until there was some improvements. He told me his salary was fine, and carried on as before. That was good for me, I got value out of him that was equal to his salary so I didn't worry about it. He went on for several years with no raises. Eventually I moved on and his new boss was not so understanding or willing to see that he provided sufficient value to justify his salary, and fired him. He went his own way, and that way led out the door...
-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!
RE: What would you do?
The pitfalls would be burnt bridges for those companies (bosses) who want yes man working for them. Yes there are lots of those types of bosses. These types of people are often on a power trip and could not lead a dog to water. If a company wants this type of person in the lead, then thats enough for me to know I don't want to spend any more time with them because of lack of real leadership. It has never, ever, cost me a job. I have never been fired or laid off from any job except as a cashier at a gas station when I was 17 (called in sick on a saturday night).
If your selective and not going off the handle every week, good leaders want to hear whats on your mind. They want someone to challenge their decision with relevant facts when it needs to be challenged. As I said before, I may or may not challenge in this particular case unless I was a participant and knew all the facts. IE, does the company allow you to sell girl scout cookies? magazines? etc for all your kids? This is only one question of many.
I had one boss who was a good engineer and was not on a total power trip. I challenged his decisions several times over the course of a couple of years. Sometimes I won out and proved my course of action would be best. The rest of the time, we did it his way. He told me he appreciated me stepping up and questioning his decisions, when I thought it needed to be questioned. Even though sometimes I was wrong, it kept him thinking clearly because he knew if he wasn't then I would be in to talk about different options or the fallacies of his decision. These were gentlemen discussions with mutual respect for one another. These were not heated arguments or shouting matches. I got a promotion after two years to engineering manager.
Don't think that I am some loner who can't get along with anyone. I am a team player. However, if I think what is happening is wrong, I will speak up. This is not to say that every little nuance, I will run in a yell at the boss. I do pick my battles because there are too many of them and I am only one person.
So all in all, it has worked out well for me. I have never been unemployed as an engineer. I make a decent wage and am now just about to quit my regular job and work for myself (income of my company is high enough now that I can quit regular job). I am satisfied that I have not compromised my beliefs (ethics, morales, etc) in order to fit in with the 'team'.
I am definately a team player. Anyone who knows me would tell you that. However, if I disagree and find it important enough, I will speak up to the people who can do something about it rather than rant to a bunch of people who can't (this is not addressed to the poster but you know the whiners on your team). I won't merely excuse my lack of speaking up as an attempt to maintain team coherency. Not speaking up causes tension in the team because most of them are wandering why this particular decision was made but most of them are not leaders and will merely take it and move on.
RE: What would you do?
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: What would you do?
Nothing wrong with that but there were some here arguing that people should walk out, loudly disagree or even threaten legal action on the issue.
Those sort of actions would be giving the group norms the finger. Not a wise career move.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
Enough said from me, I have learned there are some people, still, who visit eng-tips, that are too arrogant to acknowledge anyone elses argument as valid, even with the scale tipped with more valid points made in support of the argument.
RE: What would you do?
Me, I probably would have been one to stand up and object loudly, but then I'm a biggol' loudmouth. And I have created enough of a positive reputation for myself simply through being good at my job that it is unfathomable to me to do something simply for the sake of impressing someone else. To me, anyone who needs to do something simply to look good must not be good enough at what they're supposed to be doing.
But I can understand those who would advise against taking an active stand against the solicitation policy. I have other areas in which I am very risk-averse, and I understand that concept. What I don't understand is how not making a stand necessarily means just sucking it up and making the donation, whether it's the insane 10% of salary mentioned in the original post or $20 mentioned later. Refraining from battle against something does not have to mean adopting it for oneself.
At least I think that's what I meant.
Hg
Eng-Tips policies: FAQ731-376
RE: What would you do?
And avoiding the blame for things not your fault does not always mean volumes of documentation; it may simply mean telling your side first to someone who likes you as a person before someone blames you. You also may not have the opportunity to tell your side before you are found guilty either so all the documentation will moist likely never get seen by anyone who can help you.
And if you flout the group norms then the group just may not like you as a person and accept that you are at fault, don’t confuse things with the facts, just take your punishment.
Because these are the things that happen to those who violate the group norms.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: What would you do?
RE: What would you do?
Some male bosses may treat men better than women b/c they feel that men are superior, other male bosses may prefer women to men b/c their female employees sycophancy fuels their ego....and vice versa for female bosses. Others may see your ideas as threats to their intelligence, yet other might just steal those ideas.
In my experience very few people have gotten to positions of power without some sort of skulduggery and without an ego (usually a result of obtaining the power position)
Your boss is probably no exception.
What I suggest is trying to figure out what sort of boss your boss is and just go with the flow. For all you strong independant types out there, think of it this way, to win, you have to keep your friends close and your enemies closer. And WHEN your boss helps you up to the position of power, you can hire on people who are to your liking.