pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
(OP)
I'm wondering, how many structural engineers mainly rely on software like mathcad for their calcs, versus how many mainly rely on a calculator with pencil and paper?






RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
An interesting question. I brought up a similar topic in thread507-126479
I do most of my calcs with software now. Some of the reason for this is that I work on standard products where my work is routine enough that I can automate some of it. I do hand calcs for something unusual or out of the ordinary. Also do some hand calcs when doing a quick check of my output or when taking data from one program to another.
I mostly use CalculationCenter which is a lite version of Mathematica. It's a handy program that certainly is capable of just about anything a structural engineer will need. A disadvantage is that it's output is relatively unattractive especially when compared to Mathcad. I currently use it for ASD code checking of FEA output.
Regards,
-Mike
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
-Mike
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
In lieu of using a calculator, I find it easier to make a mini-spreadsheet tool for complex formulas and many variables. If it is worth saving, I save it first and develop it over time into my official spreadsheet.
There are many software available to perform a particular task, but there are limitations on how the results are presented. I always add a written design criteria before any series of computer printouts stating the purpose and conclusions from the analysis.
MathCad and Excel spreadsheets developed for specific calculation task definitely reduce design time, but I always make my engineers perform a hand calc version at least ONCE before "trusting" and reusing the spreadsheet/MathCAD sheet.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
It seems as if it was developed by software people with only a passing familiarity of design. For instance, for concrete beam design, it asks you for the distance from the top of beam to the center line of the reinforcing. There's no reason that with the bar size and the cover that this couldn't be calculated. I've programmed it into my HP. This seems like a minor quibble until you've had to do it a couple of hundred times.
Or take the case of updates. Their website looks like it hasn't been updated in years. They've been promising a version 6.0 for about two years now. This doesn't give me a lot of confidence in their business.
They seem to be the only game in town regarding individual element design and they act like it.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
I do fear engineers that rely on software too heavily. A recent experience I had when I was asked to review another engineer’s work for my client is a good example. He had a major software vendor’s product that promised to design a cantilever retaining wall. There was a bug in the program, and the solution to the 20+ ft high retaining wall adjacent to a RR track was to supply minimum steel (in this case #7 @ 12 inches) rather than #9 @ 6”, which he detailed after I brought the problem to his attention. In my opinion, he should have taken out a pencil and checked it himself when he saw it on the drawing because #7 @ 12” just looks too light. But either because he was in a terrible hurry, was out of budget or possibly because he didn’t know any better, he did not do this. Fortunately, I caught the mistake, but his client suffered some delay and don’t know that he will work for that client again.
Good question, but I don’t think Mathcad, Excel or any other spreadsheet is the real problem.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
Thanks to all for the replies. Personally, I think that a combination of hand calcs and software is right for me. I think that I am biased more towards the hand calc end of the spectrum though. If I had more projects that involved cranking out lots of memebers, I would adjust for that and use more software. I only trust the software or my use of it if I can also do it by hand. For documentation purposes in my calcs, I include all relevant design criteria, assumptions, and descriptions of what I'm trying to do so that if I have to go back to these calcs later, it will hopefully make sense.
One thing that scares me though, is people who use all this software without a good grasp of the priciples, who actually are more like computer operators than engineers. I think that at some point in the future there will be a significant collapse that will be traced back to that kind of person using software with the garbage-in garbage-out syndrome in play. This last comment is not intended to be an attack on qualified engineers who choose to use software for most or all of their calcs. I have no problem with that at all.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
I use Enercalc for steel beams with partial drifted loads, steel cols with uniaxial or biaxial bending, base plates, combined footing, etc. I haven't been totally pleased with their service or frequency of their updates but I continue to use it until a better option comes along. I like the ability to store all the calcs in one project file.
I have thought about replacing these with Excel spreadsheets when I get some more time.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
No software I am aware of provide a comprehensive breakdown and identification of loads that can be understood with ease after six months (or by someone other than the one who performed the computer design).
Computer is available now as a tool for obtaining quick solutions but it is not yet read for prime time to fully replace hand calcs for many applications.
"Computer is always correct" argument is a scary one and all too ubiquitous among the new generation of engineers. It is imperative that the experienced engineers train and guide the young engineers to avoid catastrophe.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
I use Microsoft Visio for putting sketches into Mathcad. Visio is a business sketching package. It is quite intuitive and all you do is copy and paste to get them into mathcad. It wont do drawings as accurately as a bona fide draughting package, but if its just a sketch representation I think its pretty good.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
-Mike
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
So, if it's good for goose, it's good for the gander? Why accept the computer stuff on the big projects without question but question the stuff on the little projects? Seems contradictory to me.
I personally do both - hand and computer (including purchased software and spreadsheets that I have developed in Excel). I would use more computer programs if I could afford them!
I remember when we were first allowed to use calculators in high school. My father would not let me use my calculator at home without doing the problems by hand first. Today, calculators (and I'm talking fancy graphing things) are required by high schools, even down to a particular model and manufacturer.
This debate almost sounds like a cultural thing. The old guys (like me) grew up with slide rules and calculators that might do square root. Kids today are growing up with technology that boggles the mind. They have implicit trust in this stuff to the point that questioning it's usefulness is like questioning the value of a car (duh!).
We need to accept that fact that technology is here to stay. As a community, we should be developing training methodologies for new engineers that utilize these tools effectively instead of forcing hand calcs as a check against the "machine". At the same time, we need to lobby the software companies to develop programs that we can use instead of what makes them money.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
We do all wood construction, vertical and lateral. So the calc's are easy. For steel beams I'll use enercalc because of the database, otherwise, I use my trusty TI-83 with self-written programs for beams.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
I am not against technology, in fact, I am completely in favor of using computer as a tool (as much as we can to minimize design time so we have more money left over after putting food on the table). What I object to is blind trust in computer output.
Project managers, and senior engineers alike, are often pressured with meeting deadlines. They don't have time to look over every input/output that design engineers produce. Only with proper training, one can gain confidence in young engineers' work and ensure their career development.
At this stage in the structural engineering field, a good balance of hand calcs and "readable" computer output are essential for our own sake as well as the public we serve.
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: pencil & paper vs. software for calcs
That brings back memories. I had a post Versalog that I think cost about $30 which was a lot of money for a college student back then. Thankfully we don't have to use these anymore. I'm glad you posted that however. The next time I'm grinding through some code to get a program to work it might help to think back to my sliderule days.
Thanks,
-Mike