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The saga of Ed Turner
9

The saga of Ed Turner

The saga of Ed Turner

(OP)
An interesting article on an ethical engineer:

Saga Article

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Tragic but great story.

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Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943.
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RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Strange how Mr Turner had to take legal action on his own. Where was the state in all of this? Why bother to have rules & regulations if the state doesn't bother to enforce them? Why does the burden for this kind of situation lay with the little guy? The state should have slapped a million dollar fine on the fools responsible for this and given a portion to Mr Turner as a reward.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Thats what I was wondering, but I bet in many states an engineer would have to do the same thing as Mr. Turner.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

While this is a tragic story it does not appear that the city violated any laws, rules or regulations pertaining to the practice of engineering, and thus there is nothing for the State Engineering Board to enforce.

Mr. Turner's non-engineer superiors asked him to seal some drawings.  As non-engineers they could easily claim that they were not aware of the responsibilities associated with sealing drawings.  Mr. Turner advised them that he could not oblige, and was demoted (again).

His mistake was resigning.  Had he stuck it out he might have had a shot at getting fired, in which case he would have had a much stronger case.


I'm sorry if this sounds cold, but Mr. Turner had a 30-year career in which he did not advance, and was in fact demoted three times.  I admire his elthical stand, but based on what is in this story, he doesn't sound like a super star.  


RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Agree. Being ethical is a beautiful thing, but getting the job done is another beautiful thing. One serves no purpose without the other. He should have worked together with his boss on how to achieve what had to be achieved in a responsible manner.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

The part of the story you won't read and won't read without a lot of digging is about where Ed Turner was on Sundays and where the others were.  It is an ethical question that will be denied exist.  The condition exist and Mr Turner isn't the first to find out first hand that is does. If your interested you have to read about it in usenet groups.  The whole thing would probably worked our differnt if he wore the right kind of underwear.  If I were Ed Turner and got a trial I would want a change of venue, Out of Idaho and for sure out of Utah.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

BJC, what are you trying to say?  Did ge get mistreated because of his religious beliefs?

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

On the contrary, if religion did play a role in this case, then it is very much pertinent to the ethics of the situation.

Did religious discrimination play a role in this case?  Where was Mr. Turner on Sunday?  Where were the rest of the people on Sunday?  Which side played the religion card?  What evidence is there that religion did play a role in this case?

If religion played a role in this case, on either side, it would be blatant violation of the separation of church and state, and a violation of Mr. Turner's First Amendment Rights.  I wasn't there, but I find it hard to believe that if religion were part of this case, that neither of Mr. Turner's attorneys made an issue out of it.  That's just too easy of a case to make, and would be a hot potato for a judge to summarily dismiss.  Surely, there is documentation somewhere?

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

It's easy to read a story like this and view it through our own filters, in other words, based on our own experiences.  I know I can identify with parts of Eds situation.  I do wonder however, how many engineers would have complained but still ended up stamping the drawings?  Is this type of situation getting worse?

This discussion of course is based on not too much background information.

Regards,
-Mike

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

2
(OP)
Whether there was a religious dimension to this story is indeed a relevent issue - but I guess I posted this article here only to indicate the pressure that engineers are sometimes placed under regarding our status as a professional vs. a commodity.  

Perhaps for this post - we can leave out the religious angle - even though it may exist and may be relevent to the whole story.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

No good deed will go unpunished.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Thank you, JAE, for bringing this article to us.  I had never heard that story before.  I find it pretty scary that something like that can happen and nothing appears to be done about it.  It makes you wonder what you would do in that situation.  Ethics and honor are fine concepts, but they don't pay the bills or feed, clothe, or shelter your children.  Sometimes ethics can be a luxury not everyone can afford.  Sure you can quit or get fired and work for Walmart or shovel something with the chickens, but what will that accomplish?  I'm not advocating S&S plans you haven't supervised or done yourself, but it isn't always black and white, imho.

I agree with Cajun and JAE.  Let's try to keep religion on the religion fora.  There's enough ethical issues in that story.  We don't have to put more in.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Then don't call it religion.  Call it social or ethnic differences; they're often all faces of the same thing, in some ways just a more ingrained version of who is or isn't a member of the Masons or even the Elk or Moose lodge.  I don't know about this case, but there are plenty of environments where being different (wrong face, wrong church, wrong last name, wrong set of gonads) isn't considered a good thing.

That said, Turner doesn't seem to be making any such claims on his website.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies:  FAQ731-376

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

My grandpa who grew up in a very rough town used to always say "Watch out for the young kid, or the old man, either one of them will stab you in the back in a New York Minute.  YOu can come more trusting the middle age guy who has a familly at home to feed."

Mr. Turner was near retirement and could easier to afford pushing the law in this situation.  His retirement probably wouldn't have ended much different, but did have a possiblility of gaining more from a law suit.

I doubt a man with kids at home to feed would have taken the same risks to make the point that Mr. Turner did.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

So what should Ed Turner have done?  

When approached by a supervisor or management to do something unethical (maybe even illegal) what is the best way to handle a situation like that?  I ask this in the context that many of us will probably work for a non-engineer at some point in our career, and will be asked to do something for the company that is unethical.  And the answer that it is unethical doesn't seem to be good enough.  

While I don't think engineers very often get fired for things like this (I really don't know the numbers,) there are other actions that can be taken.  For example, downsizing at the nest opportunity, demotions, and so on.

It's something to think about.

Regards,
-Mike

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Probably best to print out the laws and explain the whole situation without being confrontational at first.  The non-engineers would need to report directly to Mr. Turner, and make changes per Mr. Turner's direction.

How would one go about this situation where the whole organization is not having PE's sign off on anything?  How would you as a new hire PE at the bottom of the organization go about correcting the problems?

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

mrMikee - Mr. Turner worked for a public entity (a city), so there are limits as to what can be "done" to him, unless his "misbehaves" - he misbehaved. IMHO his biggest mistake was to confront management WITHOUT offering an alternative. He should have prepared an "unsolicited proposal" and presented it to management outlining a course of action (most likely hiring a consultant) to review, evaluate, correct as neccessary & maybe even seal the plans. The "reasonableness" of this proposal is not the issue - the real issue is to give management a way out of the situation (that does not include Mr. Turner).

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

SlideRuleEra, why do you qualify "..seal the plans." with "..maybe even.."?  Do you assert that attaining "responsible charge" is not possible with "review, evaluate, correct"?  (I'm not trying to engage in an argument; I'm just curious about the way you phrased the sentence.)

I may be reading too much between the lines, but it smells like he was already screwed with the first demotion, reporting to an administrator.  Maybe some unreported misbehavior preceded that event.

If a hired consultant could review, evaluate, correct and seal the plans, could not Mr. Turner have done the same thing?  That he declined to do so suggests that he had reviewed the plans, and found them not correctable, OR that he felt that did not constitute "responsible charge", OR that he was ordered to seal them without review.

Winning the malpractice case against his own attorney vindicated his ethical stance, but the effect on his personal situation made it a Pyrrhic victory.

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

MikeHalloran - Good questions. About the "maybe even" - mostly just my use of language, but did want to leave open the possibility that the plans could be for a "far fetched" concept that should not be implemented.

The hired consultant would not be viewed as a "threat" to the "establishment". If major changes to the plans were necessary, management can always say (brag) that they obtained "expert" advice to provide "special insight" into the problem. If Mr. Turner did the exact same thing - management would see this as an "attack" (even if Mr. Turner was correct).

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Lets not forget that Mr. Turner was in a highly political situation.  Who knows what else was going on in the buddy-buddy situation of a small city govornment.  The head guy was creating positions and appointing people ahead of Mr. Turner who did not have any engineering background.

The same things happen within big corporations as well.  Usually the big corporation will at least hire the outside engineering firm anytime drawings need to be stamped because they want to pass on the responsibility anytime something could go wrong.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

The range of options available to Mr. Turner were pretty limited by city budgets, cannons of ethics, and apparent attitudes of superiors.  One avenue that is always available to a manager in city government is to describe the circumstances and his concerns in writing to the City Attorney and ask for a ruling.  The City Attorney would have looked at the issues we're raising here and make a recommendation that either: (1) Mr. Turner's review and correction of the plans did constitute "responsible charge" under Idaho's laws or: (2) that the administrators were asking him to violate the law.  Getting that ruling would have put him on solid ethical and legal ground.  Not getting it put him in the position of defying his superiors without a clear indication that they ever fully understood all of the issues involved (if that indication had existed he probably would not have lost his first suit even with a bumbling lawyer).

The resulting actions were very sad, but the whole process was so unnecessary.  If you don't have access to a free attorney in a situation like Mr. Turner's, then it is worth a few hundred dollars to get a legal opinion in writing prior to falling on your sword over an ethical issue.

David

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

MintJulep "His mistake was resigning.  Had he stuck it out he might have had a shot at getting fired, in which case he would have had a much stronger case."

I don't think that your assumption that sticking with the job would make a better legal case.  If he had stayed, it could easily be argued in court that Mr. Truner was not overly uncomfortable in his new position, and thus was not unduly discriminated for his refusal to sign the documents (or any other reasons not discussed in the article).

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

The most recent issue of ASHRAE Journal has an article on Engineering Ethics which is petty good reading.

Ken

TXiceman
www.rae-corp.com

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

The one point raised was having an independent consultant come in, " . . . review, evaluate, correct as necessary & maybe even seal the plans . . ."  This is a good option until it comes to sealing the plans.  An outside consultant could write a report that the plans as submitted have been reviewed, checked and even corrected in a fashion, and stamp his report; but he couldn't, in my view, ever consider signing off on the plans - for they were done under his direction.  Interestingly, if he were to review the plans, wouldn't he have to write the engineer and advise him that he was doing so?  If so, to whom would the review engineer write?
   I agree with the main consensus that this is a toughie from the purely ethical point of view but probably could have been handled somewhat more cautiously at the very beginning of the "administrator's" appointment where the administrator could have been 'educated' a bit.  No question it is the "old boy's network" at play.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

BigH - IMHO an outside consultant could be given unusually broad authority in this situation for a key reason: Mr. Turner worked for a "public entity", not a private employer. Since Mr. Turner chose to "withdraw" from the project, his management could simply remove his name from the drawings (without notifying him) and turn over responsibility to someone else (the proposed outside consultant). Exactly when the plans were prepared (before the consultant was hired in this case) is not an issue if the consultant has full authority to accept, reject, or make changes as necessary.

I worked for "public entities" for much of my career, this kind of things happens - for numerous reasons.

www.SlideRuleEra.net

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

In some of the states that I am licensed in it is not permitted to review & stamp the work done by people who were not under your supervision.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Obvious question:  If the licensed engineer of record for a major project happens to die just before stamping the plans, what happens?  



  

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

You hope he/she was working with an associate who is also licensed and could also sign the plans.  It's a risk that firms have to deal with.  If the EOR was a lone wolf, the client gets it in the shorts.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

So if the one and only licenced engineer on the project is hit by a bus on his way in to put his stamp on the project, the team he supervised need to redo all the work with someone else supervising in order for the new licensed engineer to legally sign it off? I hope its not a busy bus route!

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

(OP)
That does bring up a good, but off-topic, question.  We've had cases where the intended EOR on a project left the firm and the project was either not yet sealed or was under construction where on-going design decisions were still coming in.

In those cases, we assigned a new PE and notified the client of what happened.  The new PE, of course, had to "get their head into the project" so that they would have a good handle on future decisions.  But I don't recall the new PE's ever re-doing all the calculations.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Some of the other states that I am licensed in do permit review & stamping of someone else's work, but they clearly state that the review should take as much time or more time than the initial design took.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Perhaps the firms, agencies and their clients who put a single PE on those projects requiring a stamp should consider ensuring the lives of those PEs. As for leaving mid-project; it seems the leaving PE would have an ethical obligation to at least bargain in good faith for continuing to supervise the project as a consultant until plans can be stamped. If not; well, how else are we going to keep all the lawyers employed?

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

If I have to choose between a PE (Mr Turner) and some non-engineer manager (with who knows what qualifications), I choose Mr Turner. His PE stamp belongs to him alone and he has no obligation to any employer who asks him to use it in a manner that is in violation of state laws. My employer has on occasion asked me to do the same, and I steadfastly refuse.

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

Where's the edit button? I meant to say "insuring" rather than "ensuring."

RE: The saga of Ed Turner

(OP)
heh - well I guess they could "ENSURE" that the PE doesn't kill himself(herself) by hiring a bodyguard to watch his/her every step.

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