The saga of Ed Turner
The saga of Ed Turner
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RE: The saga of Ed Turner
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RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
Mr. Turner's non-engineer superiors asked him to seal some drawings. As non-engineers they could easily claim that they were not aware of the responsibilities associated with sealing drawings. Mr. Turner advised them that he could not oblige, and was demoted (again).
His mistake was resigning. Had he stuck it out he might have had a shot at getting fired, in which case he would have had a much stronger case.
I'm sorry if this sounds cold, but Mr. Turner had a 30-year career in which he did not advance, and was in fact demoted three times. I admire his elthical stand, but based on what is in this story, he doesn't sound like a super star.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
Did religious discrimination play a role in this case? Where was Mr. Turner on Sunday? Where were the rest of the people on Sunday? Which side played the religion card? What evidence is there that religion did play a role in this case?
If religion played a role in this case, on either side, it would be blatant violation of the separation of church and state, and a violation of Mr. Turner's First Amendment Rights. I wasn't there, but I find it hard to believe that if religion were part of this case, that neither of Mr. Turner's attorneys made an issue out of it. That's just too easy of a case to make, and would be a hot potato for a judge to summarily dismiss. Surely, there is documentation somewhere?
Good Luck
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As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
This discussion of course is based on not too much background information.
Regards,
-Mike
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
Perhaps for this post - we can leave out the religious angle - even though it may exist and may be relevent to the whole story.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
I agree with Cajun and JAE. Let's try to keep religion on the religion fora. There's enough ethical issues in that story. We don't have to put more in.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
That said, Turner doesn't seem to be making any such claims on his website.
Hg
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RE: The saga of Ed Turner
Mr. Turner was near retirement and could easier to afford pushing the law in this situation. His retirement probably wouldn't have ended much different, but did have a possiblility of gaining more from a law suit.
I doubt a man with kids at home to feed would have taken the same risks to make the point that Mr. Turner did.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
When approached by a supervisor or management to do something unethical (maybe even illegal) what is the best way to handle a situation like that? I ask this in the context that many of us will probably work for a non-engineer at some point in our career, and will be asked to do something for the company that is unethical. And the answer that it is unethical doesn't seem to be good enough.
While I don't think engineers very often get fired for things like this (I really don't know the numbers,) there are other actions that can be taken. For example, downsizing at the nest opportunity, demotions, and so on.
It's something to think about.
Regards,
-Mike
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
How would one go about this situation where the whole organization is not having PE's sign off on anything? How would you as a new hire PE at the bottom of the organization go about correcting the problems?
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
I may be reading too much between the lines, but it smells like he was already screwed with the first demotion, reporting to an administrator. Maybe some unreported misbehavior preceded that event.
If a hired consultant could review, evaluate, correct and seal the plans, could not Mr. Turner have done the same thing? That he declined to do so suggests that he had reviewed the plans, and found them not correctable, OR that he felt that did not constitute "responsible charge", OR that he was ordered to seal them without review.
Winning the malpractice case against his own attorney vindicated his ethical stance, but the effect on his personal situation made it a Pyrrhic victory.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
The hired consultant would not be viewed as a "threat" to the "establishment". If major changes to the plans were necessary, management can always say (brag) that they obtained "expert" advice to provide "special insight" into the problem. If Mr. Turner did the exact same thing - management would see this as an "attack" (even if Mr. Turner was correct).
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
The same things happen within big corporations as well. Usually the big corporation will at least hire the outside engineering firm anytime drawings need to be stamped because they want to pass on the responsibility anytime something could go wrong.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
The resulting actions were very sad, but the whole process was so unnecessary. If you don't have access to a free attorney in a situation like Mr. Turner's, then it is worth a few hundred dollars to get a legal opinion in writing prior to falling on your sword over an ethical issue.
David
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
I don't think that your assumption that sticking with the job would make a better legal case. If he had stayed, it could easily be argued in court that Mr. Truner was not overly uncomfortable in his new position, and thus was not unduly discriminated for his refusal to sign the documents (or any other reasons not discussed in the article).
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
Ken
TXiceman
www.rae-corp.com
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
I agree with the main consensus that this is a toughie from the purely ethical point of view but probably could have been handled somewhat more cautiously at the very beginning of the "administrator's" appointment where the administrator could have been 'educated' a bit. No question it is the "old boy's network" at play.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
I worked for "public entities" for much of my career, this kind of things happens - for numerous reasons.
www.SlideRuleEra.net
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
In those cases, we assigned a new PE and notified the client of what happened. The new PE, of course, had to "get their head into the project" so that they would have a good handle on future decisions. But I don't recall the new PE's ever re-doing all the calculations.
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner
RE: The saga of Ed Turner