help from superiors (or the lack of)
help from superiors (or the lack of)
(OP)
I am wondering how many engineers at the beginning to middle stages of their careers actually receive effective help from their superiors.
I have 10 years of experience in structural engineering, and my boss is about the same age as me, but has a more years of experience in structures. Yet, he is unable to offer helpful advise of a technical nature, the usual reply being "do what you think is best". Fortunately, before woring at my current firm I worked for someone very knowledgeable who taught me lots, and helped me to be able to work independently to try to solve problems. However, he was always there if I needed help.
Now that is not the case, and I feel like a one-man show, and am very fustrated that my superior is unable to offer technical guidance to me. This website is extremely helpful to me, but is not a substitute to working under experienced and knowledgeable engineers. My boss seems happy to just "manage" things, and doesn't seem to have the ability to design anymore. He is also unwilling to rock the boat to fight for our group, as we are part of a mult-disciplinary firm that is dominated by civil engineers. I do have plans to look elsewhere, I am just wondering if my plight is shared by many others.
I have 10 years of experience in structural engineering, and my boss is about the same age as me, but has a more years of experience in structures. Yet, he is unable to offer helpful advise of a technical nature, the usual reply being "do what you think is best". Fortunately, before woring at my current firm I worked for someone very knowledgeable who taught me lots, and helped me to be able to work independently to try to solve problems. However, he was always there if I needed help.
Now that is not the case, and I feel like a one-man show, and am very fustrated that my superior is unable to offer technical guidance to me. This website is extremely helpful to me, but is not a substitute to working under experienced and knowledgeable engineers. My boss seems happy to just "manage" things, and doesn't seem to have the ability to design anymore. He is also unwilling to rock the boat to fight for our group, as we are part of a mult-disciplinary firm that is dominated by civil engineers. I do have plans to look elsewhere, I am just wondering if my plight is shared by many others.





RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
Now if he's unwilling to rock the boat and fight for the group, that's a different issue because that IS his job.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
If I was your boss I'd probably be wondering right now if you would ever have the decisiveness that is required in an experienced engineer. The guidance that you seem to be looking for is appropriate in a 2-3 year engineer, tollerable in a 3-5 year engineer, and horribile in a 10-year engineer.
David
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
Welcome to the middle of your career where YOU are the technical expert. If you have 10 years of experience, you would be the guru in some places. If you worked for me and had 10 years of experience, I would expect you to be completely autonomous, AND be the "go to guy" for the younger engineers.
It is time to face facts. If you still feel like you have more to learn, you can roll that into taking your continuing education (for PE) VERY seriously; or you can try to find a job with some old timers that won't pay as much but will give you a chance to keep learning.
When I was at the point you are, I took to TEACHING the younger engineers. As my professor in grad school told me, you never really learn something until you teach it for the first time.
ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
My boss is a structural engineer, not just someone with a business degree. We have an HR department that does a lot of the other stuff too. Also, he doesn't really manage me anyway, he has his jobs, I have mine, mine involve engineering design, his don't. I get all of the design jobs, and he has admitted that it's been so long since he designed something that he really can't anymore.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
zdas04 and zcp, occaisionaly asking your boss for his opinion does not mean that you are indecisive or need hand holding. IS that how you treat engineers under you? At 10 years of experience, you should know a lot and be able to function at a high level, and I can do both of things, and do them damn well. My point about guidance is that my immediate superior should be able to provide guidance. If he had to provide guidance for every single engineernig decision, you're right, that would mean that there is something wrong with my ability to be an effective engineer.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
Your boss's skills and/or mentoring activities are just not your choice, his supervisors put him there and as long as you stay he's what you have. There is no "rule" that a supervisor must be able to do the jobs of his staff at least as well as they do it. I supervised a group that included Oil & Gas Landmen once and I still don't have a clue how they do what they do. If you Dad is a great engineer that is a great supervisor who mentors all of his people with loving concern, they should consider themselves fortunate (maybe), but you don't work for your Dad and every supervisor has to determine how he's going to do the job he's been assigned.
One of the things I learned when I started my consulting business is that each company has their own way to do technical and personnel tasks. Many of these techniques are good, many have room for improvement (that may never happen). The fact that your father's company requires managers to be "good engineers" isn't any assurance that they will be "good supervisors". The key is that their technique is not universal. Some of the worst supervisors that I ever had were "good engineers", but couldn't turn lose of the details and became huge bottlenecks in the process.
It sounds like your boss doesn't see his role as one of mentoring a 10 year engineer with PE's in 2 states. It may be that he can't. It may be that he won't. It may be a combination. It is his decision, not yours. The best boss I ever had was a very competent engineer who always answered technical questions with "that's what I'm paying you for". What made him good is that if problems developed in implementation he always went into "damage control" mode instead of "find the blame" mode.
David
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
I have worked for both types--those who supervise and stay away from the technical details, and those who stay involved in the technical side and do poorly on the supervisory side. Believe it or not, you have the better of the two. If you get a boss who does both functions well, you are very lucky.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
I suppose I am about the same place as you in the product design world (which I am learning after joining this website is quite a vaccum regarding other engineering professions), but after working at a number of companies I've found that Managers and Engineers/Designers have a completely different skillset. I actually havn't had a boss that was "good" at both ever.
I do understand the need for an ongoing "mentor" relationship. It seems that at this point in our careers, most people with our experience become either 1. too bitter or 2. to busy to perform this duty.
In the "business" world, it is about this point in career that businessmen hire "outside" lifecoachers, or mentors (that get paid). Fortunately in engineering we have another altnative. Try going to your professional org's local chapter. Many have "mentoring" programs, that match engineers from different companies. You might find that, since you don't have a need for the "day to day" mentoring, an older, more experienced engineer, would be easier to find by looking outside your company. Actually you, like me, are probablly looking for someone who can give you more "global" mentoring.
I do agree with you, that a good mentor will be a mentor for life. And everyone no matter how experienced, needs a mentor. (Hell maybe your dad wants the job.. I know mine does for me!)
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
Senior engineers in the department I work in frequently consult with each other - the mentoring and guidance goes both ways. We frequently get the situation where a junior engineer asks advice of one senior engineer and then another senior or two overhear the conversation and chip in with other valid solutions to the problem, then all of them debate the pros and cons before the junior goes away and gets to pick who's solution seems to suit the best. In these types of discussion, the boss is just another senior engineer with experience and an opinion. And then the rest of the time, he gets to worry about the nitty gritty of management of the team...
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
I've got 27 yrs of experience and am still learning. I see that as a senior technical person, none of my managers would be expected to know more about my discipline than me.
If I need help, of whatever kind, I'm expected to find it myself. If that means that I need to get a consultant, then so be it.
TTFN
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
Tell your manager that you need to have a consultant, take classes, whatever. Set up your own peer reviews with fellow engineers. Sometimes, even the most junior engineers will ask the correct questions.
What are YOU doing to mentor your juniors?
TTFN
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
That said, this is not a perfect world. Most of the time the supervisors are in up to their neck solving their own problems. "Two heads ARE better than one", but the fast pace and competition of business doesn't always allow the luxury of paying "two heads" for solving one problem. Therefore you may be on your own. I am fortunate in that my supervisors are engineers AND supervisors, are very smart, and do not answer with "figure it out on your own" but they are VERY busy.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
bjb:
I think it is very important for a supervisor to have quite a bit of technical ability. In fact, I would prefer a supervisor who excels both technically and manigerially. However, I would rather have a supervisor who is an excellent manager and leader with only fair technical ability than a supervisor who is outstanding technically but only fair as a manager and leader.
I can relate to your frustration because I am in a similar situation. The Sr. Engineer who is supposed to be my go to guy won't take the time to teach me anything. If I go to him with a question, he will try to take over and work out the problem for me. That is why I frequently visit these forums. I avoid using him as much as possible.
Phil
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
I'm in the consulting engineering business, and we get involved with a huge variety of different projects. I don't work for a manufacturer where we specialize in one kind of project. Each one of my designs is essentially a prototype that goes into construction without any testing beforehand to see if the engineering was really up to par. They just get built and put into service. Yes, there is some testing, but that is only part of the quality control program to keep the contractor's honest. Given the large numbers of people that inhabit my structures, if I have an occaisional question about something, you BET I expect the engineer who is my boss to be able to provide a response that is better than the typical "that what I pay you for", or "I don't know, do what you think is best"! Having said that, there are times when even the most experienced of us will not have the answer. I accept that, and I condem no one that basis. When that does happen, sure, I have to do whatever is necessary to get the answers. And that's exactly what I do. But to be given the above reponse practiaclly every time? I don't think so. My superior is expected to do some engineering, and not just "manage" me.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
However, I, and others, do not accept the premise that your manager, or mine, MUST provide technical direction. They are paying you, and me, the big bucks to do the jobs given. The last time my manager actually did any engineering was over 15 years ago. As a matter of fact, we rarely get sufficient specifications or direction and it's indeed expected for us to "fill in the blanks," and make the best judgement we can. That's the real engineering; everything else is number crunching.
As with others, I would rather have a bang-on manager than a good engineer trying to do both. My last organization had 200 engineers and one manager. I saw him twice a year, tops.
At 10 yrs, you are the subject matter expert. Many IPT leads run multidisciplinary teams and there is zero possibility for that lead to have even a vague engineering opinion about certain aspects of the design.
TTFN
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
As for training junior staff, they may come up with the wildest questions. Senior engineers may give them quick answers but in my experience, it is more effective in the long run to give them hints and lead them in the right direction which allows them to THINK. I also used to suggest they come up with at least two solutions before asking.
I agree with many that it is rare to find a technical guru who is also a great manager but there are plenty who are bad at both. I wouldn't press my luck at getting any useful technical solutions from the manager types.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
18-26 they taught me stuff
27,28 it was give and take, occasionally they could help, usually I had to explain it to them.
29-35 I was technical lead and would push my solution through
36,37 I moved to a new industry, one guy there knew a lot and taught me some acoustics, but mostly I figured the rest out for myself, and all the safety related stuff was on my head. My manager was a manager, not a technical resource.
38-45 moved back into auto - I make the decisions.
So I figure after 10 years experience in one area you should be capable of deciding how to solve the unknown.
Incidentally, how often do you decide that a new test procedure or some innovative test work is required? If you don't then you are cooking from recipes, or flying blind.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
The next boss was brought in to be a manager, from another technical area. I have been the so-called "expert" ever since.
I have not had a technical go-to person since the middle of my second year on the job. I felt really deprived, but then a lot of people's very first job is to be the go-to person, so I guess I was just spoiled.
I've cultivated relationships with a lot of people who work at other places, and I contact them if I don't know the answer myself. Fortunately I'm in government and not industry so no one minds handing me free advice (and it's one of my reasons for staying in the public sector).
A lot of engineers are managers more than they are engineers. This is nothing new and nothing rare. It's nice to have someone to fall back on, but it's a luxury.
Hg
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RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
I think I hear what you are saying now. You are frustrated (and somewhat surprised) that your manager is unable (or unwilling) to answer your techinical questions. You really would like to have someone to bounce ideas off of, especially in the world of consulting where there are no cookbook solutions.
If this is the case, then I was once EXACTLY where you are. It is a real shocker to come to the realization that there isn't anyone in the company who you can turn to help with a technical issue that you will be able to figure out, but would just like to be able to DISCUSS it intelligently with someone.
I don't know what the answer to this problem is, but I will tell you the path I ended up on. I slowly began to lose respect for my manager and began to feel isolated because of the lack of technical expertise around me. It ended up in a job change where I went from the most highly educated in my department, to the least. I took a job with technical gurus and Ph.Ds all around me. It was awesome to be able to go into long technical discussions with fellow engineers.
There is more to the story, but I'll stop there until you post again and let me know if I am on the right track.....
P.S. I got into engineering because there would never be a way to learn everything. I still pull out the books and study every chance I get.
ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com
RE: help from superiors (or the lack of)
Maybe deep inside you feel that you should be the boss, and in your sub-conscious you are playing the "boss" role.