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engineering outlook for us young guys
19

engineering outlook for us young guys

engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
I need opinions from experienced engineers. You guys have seen the short-term and long-term trends.  Do you all notice a trend that might indicate that engineering will be a krappy choice of occupation in the coming decades? I've just come into the field, so my perspective is skewed.

I'm turning 25 in a month, so I have a good 40 years to go in my career (that's a whole lot longer than the amount of time I've been hanging out on this planet).  I need some serious advice. Should I jump ship now and do something else besides engineering? This would require me to go back to school.

Medicine is strong in the states and will probably remain so, at least for my lifetime (maybe?).  Well, what about biomedical engineering then? Could this possibly be a future engineering "oasis"?

Keep in mind that I have high expectations for my future standards of living. At the peak of my career, I'd like to maintain a lifestyle comparable to that of somebody today earning $200k (household), in Southern California.  Again, this will be based on a dual-income, so I would need to be making at least half of that. I don't want my kids to grow up in a poor household.  I want to ensure that they have access to things that I didn't have.

Seriously, should I defect to another field? Should I throw it all away, run and never look back? I think I'm good for at least 10 more years, but will I hit an unavoidable roadblock at that time. What would you do in my situation?

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I don't believe engineering will be a crappy choice of occupation at all, certainly electrical. Why would the need for electrical engineers collapse? And why would you throw away what you like and what you're good at, just because you think your future is doomed because other people say so? (as said in another thread, I refuse to be pessimist).

However if you really want to get rich better start your own business, be creative and lucky and work your @$$ off, because I don't know any engineer multi millionaire other than a few CEOs.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

The best in any profession do well.  You live in the country with the world's most powerful economy.  For the best of the best, there will always be opportunity there.  Focus on being the best of the best.

If you love engineering, do it for a living and you'll become good at it.  If you're wishy-washy about it or made a bad choice in relation to your interests and aptitudes, do yourself and future colleagues a BIG favour and find something else to do!  Life's too short to spend 40-70 hours per week doing something you hate or you're no good at.

If work interest isn't all that important to you and all you want is the certainty of gobs of money, dentistry or optometry might have been good options if you'd decided to go that way sooner.  But if you go back to school NOW, it's questionable whether or not you'll ever recover the cost of the extra four plus years of school PLUS internship/associate practice etc.  As your engineering economics course should have taught you, the early money is more important than the later money, provided you have the wisdom to do something sensible with it like pay down debt etc.

Yes there are challenges going forward.  Engineering definitely isn't as good a gig as it was thirty or forty years ago for sure.  Fortunately you're in the US- in Canada there's currently a massive oversupply of engineers which affects people at the beginning of their Canadian careers worst of all.  But the very best candidates can still find work here and always will.  And though the compensation earned by the average engineer isn't truly commensurate with the educational investment and personal responsibility required, it's not chump change either.  And as far as money goes, one truth stands out:  there are lots of top-notch engineers earning sub-par salaries because although they're technically brilliant, they have no idea what they're worth financially and no gumption to do anything about it.  They do the rest of us a disservice- so don't be one of them!

Long term, it would appear that you chose a reasonably good time to be born.  Opportunities will open up for you big time when the baby boom generation retires.  There will be good positions in firms and good opportunities to buy existing businesses- far more of them for sale than there are people with the funds to step in and buy them, which means good conditions for the buyers.  The latter part of your career looks sweet if you can establish yourself well in the first ten to twenty years of it.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Engineering has provided you with a terrific foundation from which to persue various career paths.  How it evolves is up to you and your goals.  One of which is eventually a 100K+ salary.  You might have to eventually go the managerial route and become a corporate officer, perhaps try patent law, or as epoisses pointed out, start your own business (and hope it is successful).  Save early, reduce/eliminate debt, and invest so that the money you are able to keep can be put to work for you.

We are not any more likely of predicting the next hot engineering fields than you are.  Yes there are clues out there so keep reading and being up to date on research.  I am sure EE's will be of use in Biomedical as well as many other fields.

Regards,

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

The previous two responses have been from Chemical and Industrial engineers. Let an Electrical engineer respond.

If you are an Electrical engineer doing electronics or software design, you may find a career where age descrimination slowly sets in beginning at the age of 30. Age is equivalent (in by many in management) to be equivalent to cost and/or obsolence. If you are specialized in RF or Analog design (especially analog/semiconductor design), then age is mostly equivalent to experience.

Of course, this is not true in every company, but given the employment ups and down of the electronics industry you can't count on staying with one company forever. Most electronics types work closely connected with electronics design or manafacturing and much of this is moving offshore. Defense and aerospace electronics has undergone considerable consolidation the past 10 years.

The electrical engineering employment picture in California the past 15 years has seen some several dramatic employment ups and downs as well.

If you are a electrical engineer in the area of Power generation and Power Transmission line, then what I have posted does not apply.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

2
I throughly believe this (but it causes some roughed feathers on this board). Do something you love, and the money will come... don't let it be your end goal. Honestly a pacheck will never make up for personal unhapiness (where you will spend 1/2 of your waking life) for the next 40 years.

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

2
(OP)
I keep finding posts where some really experienced engineers seem to be salivating when they hear of 100k salaries, like it's some kind of sacred goal to achieve. Well, for young people in California, that's just enough to maintain a middle-class lifesyle.  Nothing fancy or glamorous about it.  I don't have enough fingers to count the number of pre-30's friends that I have, that make 90k and up. Here are some examples of what they do: technical sales @ oracle, attorney @ private firm, some kind of business @ Morgan Stanley, pharmacist @ RiteAid, etc.  They've all been working for only 5 years(on average) and they've already hit the 6-figure mark. (I'm not making things up. This is simply reality.) I, on the other hand, would be lucky to make this kind of money (payroll) at the peak of my career. Many of them joke at how little they remember from school and ask me why I keep all my school notes and textbooks.  What incentive (besides subject interest) do I have to remain in engineering? (A rhetorical question.)

Unfortunately, I agree with all of the following advice I've received above. I will pursue the career path that interests me most, but I sure fear for my childrens' future. I don't forsee an impending doom but I sure can't enjoy the same sense of well-being that some of my friends have; nor am I proud and confident when I tell people what I do for a living.  Engineering is really not considered a prestigious job anymore and the salaries reflect that fact. I apologize in advance, but I feel like I'm selling myself short by following this career path. I'm anticipating a strong reply to this statement because it's true and I'm sure it makes some of you feel insecure. This is something I've noticed among engineering professionals.  If a medical resident said the same thing to a cardiologist, the doctor would just laugh and think it was a joke. Why do I get a different response here? Because what I say bears some truth and it's not fun to think about it.


But, I didn't post here just to criticize. I want/hope to see positive changes made to OUR profession. To all of you established and experienced engineers:

1. Stop being complacent with your cushy jobs.

2. Maintain your professionalism to ensure the integrity of our profession. Even if it's something little like ironing your shirt or stop wearing dirty jeans to work.

3. Stop ripping on engineers in other fields and come together. They are your own kind. We need to engage in some collective bargaining. But we'll also need to back up our attitude (which leads to #4).
 
4. Never stop pushing the envelope. Innovate & present! Don't wait till someone (your boss) comes and asks for something.


This way, us young engineer might have something to look forard to in our careers, instead of having to forage for scraps.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Young engineer's riposte:  If you just want money, then go be a pharmacist or something lawyer-y.     

If you want the personal satisfaction of building and designing things that are greater, grander, and just better than anything previously accomplished by mankind - stick with the engineering.  

I've always been under the impression that the typical engineer does what they want to be doing, and they make enough money to happily support themselves and their families.  

Otherwise change your vocation or your location.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I became an enigneer so I can wear jeans and a tee shirt to work every day... so i could work on something no one else has seen before and because i beats roofin for a living (sorry roofers, but I spend my teenage years in roofing in vegas in the summer... it sucks).

Kchiida - your number (3) point is a little silly. Did you not just seen that engineers that work for a major airline had thier collective bargining unit cut their salaries by 40%. You say you want to innovate, but advocate becoming part of a bureucratic system that stifles innovation. I don't forge for scraps. I lived in So Cal for my entire professional career. My ex wife and I owned a home together (a 3bd-2ba in Silverlake on the res.), so it can be done on a salary.

I often joke about leaving socal for the $$ but the reality is my new wife wants to start a family (which I do as well) and wants to be close to her family. That is the reality of why I am moving to Texas. Not because SoCal is unaffordable.

Plus - did someone tell you that you'd be wealthy as an engineer. I don't remember hearing that. I have always known that engineers have a "good" job where they can live comfortably. But no one is getting wealthy working for someone else.

I have been around engineers my entire life. (My dad is a professor of engineering). The ones that are incredibly successful are rarely driven by money. Money a reward that someone else bestowes on you for your achievements. But I prefert the reward I give myself.

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I have to agree with kchida on some points. However my views might be somewhat biased as I am also a young engineer.

I agree that engies should look professional, we should also take writing and elocution (speech) classes in university. I understand that some people can't do that due to their work environment, however if you work in an office block and haven't seen the inside of a paper mill/ power plant/ factory etc in a while you should be wearing decent clothes to work.

I also agree that engineers should work together, however I DO NOT agree with this joint decision nonsense. You know what I'm talking about, the commitees who make the engineering decisions and then deny culpability b/c it was a group decision. I do feel that the leader should make the decision based on his advisor's information and if something goes awry those implicated should stand together to defend their decision. I mean what are we? Lawyers?

We should definately lose that ridiculous image of student engineers being nothing but alcoholics, it's bloody embarrasing.

I have more rants in my bag-o-rants but I seem to have misplaced it.

I realise that my point of view might change as I age and get wiser (spelt institutionalised), but someone has to keep the flame alight and try to push some change, God knows all the old engies I know only think about how to avoid responsibilty and to save their own skins. Hmmm maybe the problem is that the engie's superiors are more concerned with saving their own behinds than actually making the company run well.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I guess you have rich friends or relatives who are not working at engineering field!
Being an engineer, it gives you the power to go on in your practical life and to reaching high levels of experience, confidence, and better income compared to non-engineers.
I'm as you when I did join the work after university, thinking of better jobs or business that would give money higher than Eng. field gives.
Later after few years, I got an advice from one very experience engineer saying that" I YOU NEED TO SUCCESS IN YOUR ENG. WORK, YOU SHOULD HAVE THE INTEREST TO YOUR WORK"
By these words, I have worked keeping the interest to my eng. work and really I success and got promotions and money of course.
After sometimes, I have got an offer from other companies as they have known me from my colleagues I worked with them,
The offer I have got was two grades above I have at previous company and at least 30% increase of basic salary and with other better benefits.

Who knows?
Do your best, keep your interest to your work and in particularly to the field you have got the degree on University for, be proactive..etc
By this, you will get what you want one day

All the best
Cheers    

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
"your number (3) point is a little silly."

wes616 - fair enough. I do recall some engineers talking about an engineering union that existed some time ago. From what I've heard it didn't last very long. As erroneous as my suggestions are, the point I'm trying to get across it that we need to start making changes to re-establish the integrity of our profession. In 20 years, when my kid tells me that he wants to study engineering in college, I don't want to tell him to consider something else. I want to make my family and kids proud of what I do for a living; and I want it to reflect in the quality of life that I provide them. Honestly wes616, I want to be an engineer, but ensuring my family's well being comes first. (again, keep in mind that my outlook extends out 30 years)

"i could work on something no one else has seen before and because i beats roofin for a living (sorry roofers, but I spend my teenage years in roofing in vegas in the summer... it sucks). "

wes616 - Oh ya! I second that one. My father is a roofer and still is at age 64.  I remember him working a 1.5 month job out in Vegas when I was a kid. He would start work at 3am or something, take a break during the day and finish up a couple more things in the evening. My dad would get severe nose bleed on a daily basis because of the heat and low humidity. He offered for me to take over his small roofing business, but I kindly declined.

"My ex wife and I owned a home together (a 3bd-2ba in Silverlake on the res.), so it can be done on a salary. "

wes616 - yes, but again my concerns apply only to the new generation of engineers. You were fortunate to get in before the huge real estate boom, but we (for the most part) are priced out. It's not a matter of investing or spending responsibly; the bottom line is that us young engineers need to make more or we've gotta ship out (unless of course, I rent and forget about building a nestegg). I drive a beater and I plan to do so till the thing dissolves on the freeway. And, yes, I'm doing everything I can to make the most of my salary (i.e. 401K company-matched portion is maxed, I've invested in property 1-hour away from work outside of "the OC", making additional payments towards my principal whenever possible, got someone to rent my spare room, max contibutions to Roth IRA, I do my own landscaping/gardening, etc.) I've kissed my Social Security goodbye a long time ago. But, after crunching the numbers it's just enough to get by and definitely not comfortable. A 50% raise will allow me to breathe, but I still won't be in the position to support kids (and my parents). So, for me, remaining in engineering is somewhat of a sacrifice.

wes616 & jabberwocky - Please don't get me wrong, I don't need all the fancy stuff in life, I just want what you have...a comfortable life and to be able to enjoy my job.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Kichida, FYI, you and I are not that far apart in age. (as i'm only 31).

Quote:

You were fortunate to get in before the huge real estate boom,

my ex and I bought our home during a major bubble in Real Estate. (thanks to the dot.com) in our neighborhood. It was quite expensive. At the time my salary was about 1/3 what I make now. We skimped and saved and went without for 2 years before being able to make a 7.5% downpayment.

I never had a gardener. My father never had a gardener. It actually feels good to get outside and get dirt under the fingernails. We all make sacrafices. The thing about being "middle class" is you get the choice over what those sacrafices are. You want to buy a home, don't eat out and don't by a new car (mine is a 1994, not because I can't afford a just off the lot new one). You want to eat out, fine... rent another year... you want to drive a brand new car.. well, commute further. You want to go to see a movie... don't buy the popcorn and sneak in your own drink. My father never relied on Social Security (he saw that one comming back in the 70's).

Engineering is, and will continue to be a middle class profession. Comfort is relative. The "choice" is yours.

Quote:

In 20 years, when my kid tells me that he wants to study engineering in college, I don't want to tell him to consider something else.
My dad teaches engineering at a college - my mom told me to consider something else.

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

wes616, my dad is an engineer too, and my mom told me the same thing your mom told you, "consider something else". Ironically enough the job she had envisioned for me when I left high school, is the one I want to be in now, working with the Canadian foreign service as a trade commissioner. I want out of engineering, so I'm moving onto business and politics.
Dontcha just hate it when they're right.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

They say mothers have an intuition. Mine told me I should study finance or economics and become an investment banker. I looked at my dad, and saw a happy man, even though we didn't have much $$.

I personally don't want to take over the world... just put a big dent in it.

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

But a mothers intuition is not always right or is it?  Mine told me I should've stayed in the Air Force for the retirement.  I saw engineering a much more attractive option.  She still hasn't forgiven me for that move....


America's most Prestigiouos Jobs

Certainly some job titles carry more cachet than others. But what makes a job prestigious? Is it fame? A six-figure salary? Power?

Firefighters, doctors and nurses should have no problem telling people what they do for a living. At least half of U.S. adults surveyed recently by the Harris Poll say these jobs carry "very great" prestige. Military officers, teachers and police officers are also well-regarded.

Some jobs, however, aren’t as revered. The lowest-rated occupations in the survey were stockbrokers, real estate brokers, accountants and journalists. Union leaders, bankers, business executives, actors and lawyers didn’t fare much better.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

kchida,

Just a question, why did you get into engineering?  Engineering in college has never been a popular choice.  Engineering is one of those fields that you want to go in or not.  I’m certain that people did not go into engineering for our luxurious life style.

Just curious…


Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
Tobalcane- all throughout school (K-12), it was very apparent that my strong points were science and math.  I found these subjects to be the most interesting. I absolutely dreaded literature, history, creative writing (as you can tell in my posts!), etc.

Growing up, I could always count the number of friends I hung out with on my fingers, but they were extremely close relationships.  I never had a million pseudo-friends and acquaintances.  So, I knew very early on that I didn't have the knack for shmoozing, small talk and socializing on a superficial level. I'm honest and I suck at lying. I was a shy kid at school, but very active and uninhibited at home.

Outside of school, I was always building and destroying things in my backyard.  The earliest recollection I have of engaging in this kind of behavior is around first grade or so. Looking back, I think I was a strange kid. I would collect and hoard every little chunks of garbage that looked neat to me.  Basically, I would bring home any discarded metallic or plastic part that looked like it was processed or showed some evidence of intelligent design (i.e. old keys, batteries, speakers, antennas, old tools, etc.) I would keep it all in a box (actually many boxes) and my mother quickly learned not to throw them away because I would just go nuts. I would always take things apart, for example, I asked for a R/C car one time and within a couple weeks it would be in pieces. As I grew older, I would follow through and put things back together to see if they still work.  As children, I'm sure many of you in this forum were this way. Some B-day presents that I recall asking for are as follows: chemistry set, electronics lab from radio shack, R/C car, legos, more legos, Nintendo, rock tumbler, aircraft model kits, etc.

 As a high school grad, I was too narrow-minded to even consider that engineering presence in the US may decline.  I really had no adult direction as to what I should be to become successful. I enrolled in EE cause, quite frankly, I liked it. However, after beginning the upper-div portion of the EE program, I have to admit that I was a little burnt out in the interest department. I think this was largely due to the 10-week quarter system. It allows students just enough time to memorize how to solve particular problems, but it doesn't allow them enough time to really sit down and develop a strong intuition (well...at least for me; I'm no genius but I've sure witnessed some almost supernaturally-gifted minds; namely, my professors and post-docs. I'll could never ever gain their level of theoretical intuition!)

So, I kinda know why you are asking this question. I didn't get into it for the money. No matter what profession I get into, I'll always be an engineer.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

My dad, a PhD in Eng, was a B-C student through his undergrad. He really didn't get "serious" about school until he was in Gradschool... and only because he had to be, or he's get shipped off to "Nam". Anyway, a quarter or so into it, it really "clicked" with him. It's not that they are supernaturally smark, it's that they Love what they do, and want to know EVERYTHING about it. (that bores me, as I like being a generalist). - Don't sell yourself short.

I wish the system would have people with your type of interests study a pure science instead. You'd (they'd) probablly be happier and more fulfilled. Engineering is a business (no matter what anyone says - it simply is about making things.. that make money. Science is about playing with toys, not engineering).

But to get back to your original post. I for one, am going to encourage you to try something diferent. Do it now, while you are 25 and don't have children, and the housepayment. People with eingineering degrees do well in Medical School. Sothern California has many good ones (or go somewhere else, and try it out for a while). Pharmacy school is exciting as well. Or sign onto law school and become a patent attorney (Chapman in OC has a great program as well as Southwestern & USC & Loyola in LA). Or what about an MBA. All great $$!

Or you could get a loan for the grad school money and franchise a Baja Fresh or a McDonalds. My wife's parents own resturants, and they are sitting pretty ($$).

Or try your hand a the real estate game. There is still zillions to be made in sothern california.

Try something different. Do it today! You only live one. Follow your heart. Obviously it's leading you in this direction (or at least away from enigneering).

Wes C.
------------------------------
In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

If money is really really important for you, why don't you study for business? You can work at wall-street and have a good living standard, be a sale guy. In the past, the belief of american is to work for the interest, money is not the most important. Now, the world is changing, including America, everyone wants to earn 'quick' money in the short period of time, investment in the house and bond, selling the ideas, dot com bloom. I do think this is not good for the future of US.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
"If you are a electrical engineer in the area of Power generation and Power Transmission line, then what I have posted does not apply."

comcokid- do you forsee major projects in this area? I keep hearing people mention that the power grid system is archaic and is due for a major overhaul. Alternative energy and transmission methods really do excite me. If there's going to be a WWIII, I can bet that it'll be over energy. Unless, ITER comes through and sooner than expected.

"I guess you have rich friends or relatives who are not working at engineering field!"

liberoSimulation- yes, indeed. i'm surrounded by too many OC-bred yuppies (nice yuppies nontheless). Somehow, I ended up going to school with a bunch of rich kids from my high school. I should, however, mention that I know even more friends that are just barely floating.

"It's not that they are supernaturally smark, it's that they Love what they do, and want to know EVERYTHING about it. (that bores me, as I like being a generalist)."

wes- I wish that were true, but some of these people i speak of are beyond the product of hard work and motivation. They are really something else. I knew of this kid in high school that took the SATs in 9th grade and scored a 1600. He took community college math courses starting his freshman year because our high school didn't have classes beyond AP Calculus. I recall him studying tensors and manifolds in 11th grade. He jumped ship the end of his junior year and started his BS in Math at Harvard (with his credits he entered with a sophmore standing.) He pumped out his MS and he's now currently a post-doc at Berkeley. The odd thing is that he had an exceptionally high vocabulary and wrote so well. He was also into literature and plays. I came across a few people like this; I really wonder how they perceive the world. But yes, >95% of the brainiacs out there are products of hard work and self-motivation.

What I really dream of becoming is a successful inventor.(Note: the keyword here is 'dream', I can't possibly aim to become an inventor; it's such a shot in the dark). I really admire the likes of Bushnell and Warnock; ordinary guys that have done extraordinary things. If you guys have time you should read some bios on famous inventor's:

http://www.thetech.org/exhibits/online/revolution/

I read in numerous articles that most successful inventor's were driven by the prospects of making money. I'm getting the hunch that many of you believe that the desire for money is taboo, but I think that it is only natural, especially in a free market and capitalist society. It's how you spend your money that may spark controversy. If we don't earn the money, someone else will and they will most likely spend it on something that does nothing for our society/economy. I'm sure that we, as engineers, have enough brains to invest any excessive amounts of money into the right places, in order to better our society and strengthen our economy. Personally, I would much rather see money in the hands of engineers than a bunch of attorneys and business execs. All of you in this forum are talented people and you all do things that many others cannot.  So why not command top dollar. Don't settle for crappy pay, because in the end we're just screwing ourselves (and the future generations of engineers). JMHO.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Kichida - My comment about Power Engineering was because I do not work in this area and do not know how good/bad it is. "Electrical Engineering" is a broad term encompassing a lot of different disciplines. One thing you can say about power generation - unless some new form of physics are developed power generation will remain onshore. The technology in this area does not change as fast as something like semiconductor fabrication.

In one way, I view my 25 year career in terms of the 1980 recession, mid-eighties economic slowdown, 1990 recession, dot-com implosion of 2001, etc. I remember the older engineers I started with talking about the late-60's end-of-Apollo era bust or SST cancellation of the early 70's. I have a brother-in-law Chemical engineer who remembers the mid-west oil crash of the late 80's. Some like to focus on skills needed to make large $$$$, but I have come to carefully protect the technical skills that will get me my next job. Different engineering professions require different long-term strategies. For Civil engineers, experience is important - for some Electrical engineers, experience is detrimental.

Engineering is not a crappy profession, but it is not insulated from economic ups-and-downs. You have to love what you do. Many of the rewards are getting you name on patents, publishing a paper, or looking at the product you designed in a magazine.

It's always hard to say what will be the next hot engineering discipline. 15 years ago people would talk about AI Software technology - this remains a obscure academic area. Certainly with recent DNA advances, Biomedical engineering will be big (or will it become more of a biological or medical area?)

Difficult to see, always in motion are the future... - Yoda

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

clearly you need to make 200K  if you don't want kids to grow up in a poor household.  Did you know the median household american salary was $44,389 (us census).

" I don't have enough fingers to count the number of pre-30's friends that I have, that make 90k and up."

Then you don't have enough fingers to count either the number of friends who either have really rich parents and given them ideal jobs or friends that lie about their salary.  That's $45/hr essentially...

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Back before you were born and I was in high school, we had a career day. The engineer who came to speak to us made a point that is still valid today.

Getting an engineering degree will always give you the means to put food on your table and have a roof over your head.

You may not become rich compared to some other professions, you may not even be as well paid in some cases as tradesmen but you will always be able to put food on the table and that table will be under a roof.

If you picked for example law there are lots of starving lawyers out there. They can only practice law and not much else. An engineer can work as an engineer or as a technician and has the foundation to be successful in many fields (business, operations management to name two.)

Add to that some other advice that I received in my graduating year, it really does not matter what you do for the first 15 years, and where you are at 40 years old is most likely where you will be for the remainder of your career.

I spent the first 15 years in government and then at age 38 started out on my own as a consultant doing construction management. Now 12 years later I am still doing that and do not see any drastic changes in what I do for the next 10 years until retirement.

Bottom line the gut wrenching decisions you are making today on one job or the other will really not matter that much in the long run. If you actually enjoy engineering then stick with it, you will find a place for your talents and interests.  If you are finding that you do not enjoy engineering then give it up and use the base education to become successful in a field that you do enjoy.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

macmet:  I don't think kchida's off the mark- rather, you're in denial about the income prospects of other professions.  There are LOTS of things, most of them legal, that can earn a person a $90k + /yr salary before they're 30.  kchida has listed quite a few of them.  

Engineering ISN'T one of them.

I had two highschool classmates who graduated with optometry degrees the same year I finished my combined bachelors-masters in chem eng.  One of them was the guy next to me in that imfamous first-year eng class where the prof says, "Look next to you- chances are, either you or your seatmate won't be here by graduation!".  He took that hint seriously!  Both of them spent exactly the same amount of time in school that I did and paid virtually identical tuition, graduating with their O.D..  Both of them earned starting salaries TWICE what I was able to command, and their salaries are still vastly greater than mine.  The most harm these people can do is prescribe a pair of contacts that don't fit well, and the most stress they experience on a daily basis is writing a referral to an opthamologist so that HE can tell them they're going blind.  Whereas if I screw up, people might die in a spectacular way that's likely to make the newspaper!

I wouldn't trade my job for theirs- engineering suits my aptitudes and interests much better than optometry ever would- and money isn't everything (unless you don't have enough of it to meet the basic necessities of life, then it truly IS EVERYTHING).  

If things were right in the world, their job probably wouldn't be valued anywhere nearly as highly in dollar and cents terms as mine is- whereas the opthamologists' job probably WOULD be valued higher than mine.  And I'd still be OK with that- I wouldn't want the guy cutting and sewing up my eyeballs to be worried about whether his rent cheque was going to bounce!  

Quite frankly, I'd be far happier at TWICE the salary than I am now.  It's not a matter of money per se, it's a matter of respect and value.  If I were paid better, I might then feel that the stress and personal responsibility I endure as a consequence of my work were properly respected in the only terms that business values:  dollars and cents.  Then again, we engineers aren't the only profession who feels ripped off this way, and quite justly.  Capitalist society assigns value to work in some strange and seemingly irrational ways.

Unlike many other professions, though, ours once WAS paid at a rate which properly respected our contribution to society and the economy.  Ours did have such status AND compensation, fifty or sixty years ago.  That's long gone now, and getting worse daily.

By all means, you dyed-in-the-wool engineers out there:  please do what you love, but for the love of Pete PLEASE don't do it for a substandard salary because you love it so much!  You're not doing the rest of us any favours by doing so.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Moltenmetal,

I totally agree it is possible to make that much as a pre30.  But to imply it's common I totallly disagree with.  I wonder what the ratio is of people who make less than 15/hr to those that make over 45/hr.  

It would be nice to make a lot of money, but there are many people out there that would do anything for an engs salary.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
"clearly you need to make 200K  if you don't want kids to grow up in a poor household.  Did you know the median household american salary was $44,389 (us census)."

macmet- yes I agree, 200k is big. This is not a realistic goal of mine, but it sure is a dream and at least in SoCal, it's really not a crazy excessive HOUSEHOLD income. Also, I never said that I desire to make 200k all by myself. At times, I wish I were less pragmatic and had delusions like this, because those that think big, get big result (not necessarily positive results though.) I'm already assuming that my fiance's income will quite possible be around 100k (she'll have her PhD in neuroengineering and has developed close relationships with MDs and Profs. Many of her professors have initiated start-ups during their sabaticals and some have found employment through them. A good example of this is Henry Samueli and Broadcom!)

So, essentially I'm aiming high and setting my goal to 100k, which I can attest is not an outrageous salary for some of my peers, here in SoCal (don't get so worked up, they are not swimming in money like you'd think.) They have average condos near their jobs that destroy their paychecks. Not to mention tax, SS, 401K, etc. They have school debt and they pretty much live like I do. Only difference is that I have trouble trying to save and invest, because all of my check goes to living expenses. So, for all you young bucks thinking of coming to Cali, you may want to think twice!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
"Certainly with recent DNA advances, Biomedical engineering will be big (or will it become more of a biological or medical area?)"

comcokid- for the most part, Biomedical seems to be expanding in every direction, but not at a pace that stimulates me. I'm not sure if Nano will have a bigger impact on biomed or bioengineer, but there's definitely an apparent synergy that exist between the two. Some of the things that I've seen being researched at school are MEMS applications for biomed (i.e. lab-on-a-chip, implantable microactuators, retinal implants, etc.) Bioengineering, on the other hand, will always be largely life science based (i.e. no mech, not much electrical, etc.)

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

kchida
I think engineering is tough for you and not of interest to you as well as I felt from your posts.
An advice is to change your field now instead of being always dreaming of wealthy life and you are among challenges that you are not aware of.

Cheers

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
"I totally agree it is possible to make that much as a pre30.  But to imply it's common I totallly disagree with."

Macmet- I don't think that my wording implied that this kind of salary, at such an early age, is common. But, if it did, I apologize for the misunderstanding and I hope it's all cleared up. Also, I'm know what the average income for the US is, as well as SoCal and Bay Area.  In fact, my parents got by with under 30k (on average). Some years were better and in the mid-1990's I remember we only had like 20k or so. That's about when they filed for Ch.11 bankruptcy protection. I remember helping them out with some of the paperwork because of their limited english. Basically, it sucked and I'm perfectly aware of the average salary. But I really make it a point to disassociate my personal goals from everyone elses'. I make a conscience effort to rid myself of the low expectations I had growing up. When people have low expectations, it not only hurts the individual, but it hurts the rest of society as well.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
"I think engineering is tough for you and not of interest to you as well as I felt from your posts.
An advice is to change your field now instead of being always dreaming of wealthy life and you are among challenges that you are not aware of."

libero- ahh..I was waiting for this reply. I can't generalize and say that all engineering positions are of equal difficulty. Mine happens to be very unchallenging (at least technically). In fact, I think I make more progress learning at home and at school. I enjoy what I do at home; obviously if I didn't I would simply do something else. However, I do wish that I had more resources and access to great technical mentors (something I can't do at home).

Now if I may, I'll ask you a few questions. Why do you assume that my lack of job satisfaction, stems from my inability to handle my "tough" job (which BTW is not true)? With all due respect, is this a way for you to boost your morale, by creating a fictitous mindset in which you have absolute intellectual supremecy over people in other fields, thereby negating any gripes about your job situation?  My point is that engineers, in this society, are undervalued and underpaid. We are treated as a commodity. As a new engineer, I admit that my pay is great (considering my little experience), but I'm sure I won't feel the same way in 5~10 years.  A free market and capitalistic society works bilaterally, engineers in such societies get paid what businessmen are willing to pay them; likewise, businessmen pay what engineers are willing to accept. Of all the professions out there, I think that engineers(in general) are least likely to counter their employer's initial offer.

Finally, I won't leave out a very important factor that really changes the rules of the game......globalization. We are actually in a position where our leverage (as American engineers) is diminishing. So now, are bargaining chips are disappearing before our eyes and our salaries will continue to decline. Our job security will keep plummeting.

So, I CAN handle the heat, but I'm thinking about leaving the kitchen cause the walls are caving in. As the great Chic Hearn once(always) said, "The eggs are coolin...the jello's jigglin, and the butter is getting hard."

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

kchida: I believe you are wrong, I belive that opportunity for engineers will go through the roof in the next 20 years, and I believe salaries will follow. I am a third generation engineer, my Dad did better than his Dad, and I have done better than my Dad. I have far exceeded the magic 100K, and am quite comfortable.

But I also think your attitude is rotten, and I highly encourage you to start law school asap. You'll fit right in there.....besides, it sounds like you have already made up your mind regarding the future of engineering. Your pay is great but you are sure you won't feel the same way it 5-10 years? Why did you even bother to start this thread?

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

(OP)
sms- ouch! that one hurt (but I'll live).


Quote:

I belive that opportunity for engineers will go through the roof in the next 20 years,
Well, I sure hope this is true too.

Quote:

But I also think your attitude is rotten, and I highly encourage you to start law school asap. You'll fit right in there.....besides, it sounds like you have already made up your mind regarding the future of engineering. Your pay is great but you are sure you won't feel the same way it 5-10 years? Why did you even bother to start this thread?

On a serious note, I do apologize if I offended you (I'm being very sincere here, not being sarcastic).  I just tend to discuss things openly and sometimes I step on some toes in the process.  But, I truly believe that I need to find a solution to this anxiety. Also, I do admit that I'm not projecting a good attitude, but I'm really trying to counter it by trying to be constructive (not optimistic...I wish I could agree with the quote in your signature, but continuing with the path that I'm on now, my gut instincts just tell me otherwise).  I HAVE observed that this thread isn't doing anyone any good, so I'll stop here (besides, it's not fun being "cannon fodder"). However, I will take my questions and advise-seeking elsewhere. FYI and with all due respect, I won't let some negative responses here stop me from pursuing my career goals and dreams.

Wes616, Comcokid, Moltenmetal, RDK, PSE (sorry if I'm missing anyone) - Thank you all for giving me some REAL advise and most of all, thank you for sharing your perspectives on this matter. Although I did sense some frustration from you guys too, you still kept it constructive. I truly appreciate it and I hope some young forum readers here, in the same situation as I am, can extract something useful from this thread (without whoring up this forum). :)

liberoSimulation, sms, macmet- No hard feelings to you all and no offense taken. Thank you for reading/responding and please (seriously) don't be offended by my words, as they were from my heart (but maybe a bit too passionate for an online forum).

Take care guys!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Back to the original posting.

$200K household income in California? You can be pretty sure that most companies that need to hire engineers will follow GE's suggestion and set up engineering shop in cities with much lower cost of living requirements than California. If you want a future as an engineer in the USA, you would have better prospects looking in cities where the cost of a 3 br house is below $200K, and not over $750 K as in Kaleefornia.

As far as what field to get into, at the age of 25, you would need to think about what major social problems need to be addressed in the next 40 yrs. Energy issues , and the related issue of transportation, will require massive investments as well as disruptive  social changes in the USA over the next 40 yrs, and that means the related  technical issues will will require engineers to solve.

There is already occurring a major effort to replace retiring workers in the electric power industry and petroleum industries with new blood. If those efforts come up short, than those jobs or services would be outsourced to other countries with less of an age distribution unbalance, just like any other engineering job that can not be filled locally at a salary range that is  judged to be economical, fair , or competitive.



RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

One long term trend is movement toward medicine. Life enhancing devices such as artificial joints, dental devices, laser eye surgery and numerous other advances are a fact in today's world. Continuing development centers around extending life and enhancing life. This research includes very diverse areas starting with mechanical devices and proceeding onto bio-mechanical devices and will finally be replaced by artificial genetic engineered devices/organs/repairs. Manipulation of a person's DNA/RNA will probably cure cancer, AIDS, and the common cold. Will I see it in my lifetime? Probably not but you young engineers may. Life science engineering if I was young again is where I would like to be. An artificial pancreas is very close to being a reality.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

kchida,

A couple of opinions from over the water:

Power engineering is boomtown at present, and it looks to be getting better by the minute. Our industry was de-regulated about 15 years ago in the greatest act of sabotage ever perpetrated by a government against its people. Unemployment in the utilities was sky-high, 'downsizing' was the order of the day. Things have changed in the past ten years: few people study power engineering any more, and there are only a few places left to study it. There is a growing shortfall as the power engineers of my father's generation reach retirement and there is no one to replace them. The result is higher salaries and increased competition among employers.

You guys in the US just have no idea about high property prices. Trust me! House prices in the UK have risen about threefold since I bought my first house - a real dooer-upper - in the final months of the last century. You would not believe the struggle I went through with that house: I spent three months in winter without heating, just a sleeping bag and airbed on the floor. All the work I could legally do myself, I did myself because I couldn't afford to pay anyone. I had one tap, cold, in the garden. I would shower at work because I had no bathroom. My only electricity was a socket wired directly out of the old DB on the wall. Lighting was a pair of 500W industrial floodlamps. Meals were cooked on my little petrol stove. The hardship paid off though - I now have a big house which I couldn't ever have afforded without the sale of my first place. Don't be offended if I say I don't think you've experienced hardship yet.

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Dear colleagues,

The discussion in this forum is pretty much consistent with published statistical data. Here is a highlighted points and driving force in the engineering community.

o    Career challenge is 6 times more important than money for most engineers.
o    Paradoxically, there is a statistical tie among happy and unhappy engineers.
o    One third of the engineering population are neutral regarding career satisfaction
o    Average annual engineering salary in the US is around $60K to $70K.
o    Entry-level annual starting salary is roughly $40K.
o    Rate of salary increase around $10K to $15K every ten years.
o    Salary in the US is roughly twice than in Europe and 5 times than Asia.
o    Engineering salary increase primarily with the years of experience.
o    The Asian population is the largest group pursuing engineering career in the US.
o    Women, black and Hispanic engineer’s salary are lower than white and Asian colleagues are.
o    Other salary factors are type of industry, discipline and geographical location.
o    Higher degrees earn higher salary more notorious after several years of experience.
o    BS salary level declines roughly after 30 years of experience. However, MS and PhD increase in time.

Most engineers fill optimistic with the future even thought there is concern regarding job security, increasing trend outsourcing, war, climate changes, etc.



For additional information see also the enclose link.

http://cuky2000.250free.com/Eng2.pdf

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Time to get my masters!

Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Cuky2000

I am going to have to disagree with your information on salaries.  From personal experience and all the salary cross sections I have ever seen your numbers are way low.

Where did that information come from?

For instance the average STARTING salary from my uni was over 50k/yr.  This is in south central US (Texas).

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

2
You always have to consider when the information was gathered and or published.  I saw something the other day giving the median home price for my town.  It seemed really low.  After digging further I found that the data was from a 2000 census.  YOu have to watch those internet calculators and graphs!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

cuky, your first link list the average with the base titles around 67k for all disciplines of plain "engineer".  I completely believe this.  However if you factor in the additional pay for lead, chief, supervisor, manager, PE, etc (all titles that are likely left in another column although they make up a large % of older engineers) you will likely have an average around 75k across the entire board.  That leaves the older and more prosperous crowd making in the 90+ area.

Your second link is for entry level positions.  Even this link puts the average around 47-50k.  Are you telling us that the average entry level position makes 5-10k less than the overall average.

I also have a problem with online salary serveys.  Do they know if you have a degree or not?  Check out the serveys done by processing magazine, asme, and the like.  Otherwise you run into the problem of people without degrees saying they are engineers and messing up the servey.  For instance 60% or so of the people in my company with "engineer" in the title have no degree of any kind...I will not expand upon my feelings about this policy

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

3
I enjoyed reading the posts in this room.  Recently I've been thinking about most of these same things, and contemplating career changes.  

I would say that most people who got out of highschool when I did (1998) had money somewhat in mind when they chose engineering.  (And there's nothing wrong with that.  For us non-trust fund babies the main purpose of a job is to make money)  Unfortunately things have changed drastically since then.  Engineers in my graduating class got double screwed in that the economy was in the tank, so we had hell finding a job, and then when we did find one, it was usually in the higher cost areas of the country.  Then of course housing skyrocketed before we could save up the cash for a downpayment.  My uncle graduated with a BSME 1970ish.  He bought a lake house (with no wife or roommates to chip in) roughly 20 miles west of Milwaukee a year after he graduated.  I work outside of DC and could possibly buy a trailer in the sticks.  

From what I can see, one good thing about engineering is that you pretty much make the same kind of money everywhere, meaning I could easily get my DC salary matched in Oklahoma.  No lawyer here can claim that.  
Along those same lines though, somebody above mentioned GE staying out of high cost areas.  I suppose thats why they kept their healthcare division in Milwaukee, but I haven't seen an influx of jobs to middle america so I would safely assume that most companies are not following this philosophy.  I went to school in the midwest and I would guess more than half my classmates went to the coasts (mainly east) after graduation.  With that in mind, you probably have a lot more job security in LA than in middle america.  And if you do go for an engineering job out in the sticks to improve your living standards, you'd better pray there's never a layoff, because you're guaranteed to have to move for your next job, possibly at your own expense.  And good luck finding your spouse a decent job.

Also, in my opinion engineering is way too specialized a career considering that you don't get paid that much more for the experience.  I mean 5 years experience doing analysis isn't equivalent to 5 doing design, and really, 5 years analyzing brake disks isn't the same as 5 years analyzing airplane wings, or 5 years using NASTRAN vs Dyna.  I love to look at some of the outrageously specific stuff some companies ask for in their want ads knowing that there might be 10 people in the whole country who qualify for some of these jobs, and even if they found one of them they're not about to shower them with cash.  If you are lucky enough to have significant skills in something thats really in demand, then you can probably get a decent salary, but 100K for an engineer is rare.  Your best bet for that type of money (but staying in engineering) is getting into management.  Technical experts with salaries like that are uncommon.  There are about 4000 engineers/scientists at the lab I work at (both govt and contractor).  I would guess there are 40 or 50 that pull in 6 figs, mostly managers.   

Most of the people I work with (young or old) would probably say they enjoy their work, but by no means are they well paid, so I don't buy the myth that if you do what you love the money will come later, as some of these people have been doing this their whole career.     

Another good thing from what I've seen so far is that engineering workload is pretty low.  I remember in school hearing about people in San Jose putting in huge hours, but in the defense industry from what I've seen most people do 40 to 45.  New lawyers or accountants work far more hours than we do, and doctors have to do residency (indentured servitude) for 3-7 years, so at least we don't have to do that crap.   

For me the main reason I want out is that the salary doesn't buy me the standard of living I expected going in, and the work isn't as enjoyable/challenging as I had expected.  I could probably correct this by going back to the midwest or changing jobs, but I'm also worried about outsourcing and H1Bs.  Engineers really have a lot working against them in this economy.  And I don't think I'm being overly pessimistic either.  Check out the labor department forcast for engineering jobs in the next 10 years.  According to them the only thing worth doing is software.  

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Digging around a little more on cuky's posted websites at careerjournal.com found some interesting info.  For starters, some of the data presented was from salaryexpert.com.  I am a mechanical so I put in mechanical engineer for my area.  It came up with 47-50K which I believe is about what the young whipper snappers out of school with 0 years experience are getting.  But the salary wizard does not exactly state "what" we are looking at (experienced, entry level, etc).  On the same careerjournal.com website it gives tons of links to other salary surveys that show the avg salary to be about 50% higher than the salaryexpert.com number.  Doggone online calculators!!!!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Hello Pza,

I understand your filling about people without qualifications. For your information, more than 22% of all individuals employed in science and engineering occupations have less than a bachelor's degree education, according with the National Science Foundation. It is unfortunately that this group of people making salary not to far apart from the salary earned by engineers with bachelor degree. (See graph below)
More than four million individuals with at least a high school education were employed in science and engineering (S&E) occupations in the US as of April 2003. Within this group, a substantial proportion, 22 percent, reported either a high school diploma (5 percent) or an associate's degree (17 percent) as their highest level of educational attainment (table 1). Among the remaining proportion, 48 percent held a bachelor's degree, about 22 percent held a master's degree, 7 percent held a doctorate, and about 2 percent held a professional degree.

I had to confess that I also have a problem with salary surveys and data that sometime is used to keep the engineering salary low. However, I should say that the data presented appear to be reasonable with deviation as expected but accurate enough to extract decent trends and conclusions regarding the present and outlook for engineering job market in the short and midterm.

To minimize any controversial issue regarding validity of update information, here is recent salary from over 800 advertised engineering positions covering many disciplines. Beware that those figures are based in the maximum range advertised to attract candidates. (Actual salaries are in a range with minimum salary significantly lower than the maximum advertised)

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

So I see that a PhD in engineering has a NEGATIVE value as far as future earnings (on average) are concerned!  Not too surprising I guess, with all those professors in there!

Then again, the value of the Master's degree appears to be overstated in this data relative to what I've seen, which is actual survey data from the local marketplace for licensed professional engineers (i.e. with most of the dolts removed).

Forget the surveys and figure out what you're worth to your employer in dollars and cents.  You're an engineer, so your true value shouldn't be too far from your fingertips or else you're not doing a very good job!  Where we engineers fail is in demanding compensation for this value-added from our employers.  Too many of us do quite the opposite- handing over enormous amounts of our time free of charge, in addition to the hours our paltry salaries command.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

hi kchida:

Well, looks like your string has deviated quite a bit from your original question into a real debate about "other things."

I'd like to answer your original question about whether engineering is a "vaible field" or not.

I'm 47, engineers in college when I first attended used slide rules, and computers were on "Star Trek." I've served the fishing vessel building industry,material handling industry, and now the automated food packaging industry.

Engineering is only viable as a career/business - like any other business - as long as it rewards you with both self esteem and not just pays the bills - but buys the luxuries that you desire or investments you want.

Think of yourself as "Kchida, LLC" or "Kchida, Inc." You are a professional providing a service. When you show up for work, don't think of your employer as such - they are the customer that you won over when you interviewed: they liked you, and you are providing a service. To make them happy, do what it takes.

Now, our current economy is something the likes of which would scare the "bejesus" out of the WW2 generation: you and I do not work in an environment of "guaranteed" long term employment, retirement pensions, and a fat dumb and clueless suburban lifestyle.

You an I to survive must think in business terms and here's my answer to you about sticking with engineering: as soon as your own paycheck, cost of living, your own economic and industry research, etc. begin telling you that engineering is no longer a cost effective career field, then begin looking either for a new area to live that offers better lifestyle, or a new facet of engineering, or a different career altogether - including running your own business.

The idealism that someone earlier put out about the self-perceived rewards of designing a bigger better mouse trap [in condemning monied  craeers] is a load of @^*(($@. The working world is full of jokers who hold themselves on  a self-created pedestal - and are absolutely clueless to HOW THEIR COMPANY OR BOSS PERCEIVES THEM.

As for my own stupid mistakes - and they are many - at Temple University (Class of 89) when I returned to school, I scoffed big time at a new curriculum being offered in "Biomedical Engineering." I laughed at how "stupid" that was - don't recall why. Well, to this very day I am eating crow, for that very field is a big time mondo biggo money-maker.

Lastly - and then I'll shut up - may I suggest that BEFORE you toss mega bucks into a Masters Degree [when a coworker pitches that idea to you - and they will] think as any business professional would: validate the expense! Remember "Return on Investment?"

Think like a cold-hearted investor. Put your Engineering Economic Analysis to work and forget the "perceived prestige" sales pitch so many folks fall for. There are a lot of folks paying big time student loan bills for MS degrees that have had zero pay back.

In closing, I worked in the 90s with a drafter whose name was on drawings dating back to the mid sixties when I was a kid. The whole time I lived a life, put myself through school - twice - lived on two coasts, seven states, two nations, saw 28 countries, and SCUBA dived in seven seas, he expended his entire life's energy in one company, at the same level, doing the same damn job every freaking day.

He believed in working 40 years, saving, and then having some reward. Do you think he ever saw his dreams achieved? Well, he died one year after retiring. I've seen this happen too many times to be fooled into believing "hanging on" is valid.

Our time here is limited: Earth is like a vacation spot, and there IS a departure date. Our energy is our currency - we need to spend it wisely to enjoy our stay to the fullest extent possible while we can.

Chase your dreams and if it calls for leaving engineering, so be it. If it calls for being the best damn engineer in your field, more power to you.

Cheers from Chris in NC NASCAR COuntry!
Ex-homeless kid
Retired Military
Happy Engineer





RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Here is some more recent information from Abbott Langer and Associates:

Salaries in Mechanical Engineering
Compensation in Mechanical Engineering, 4th Edition - 2005
PUBLISHED: September 2005

Summary of the 572-page Compensation in Mechanical Engineering, 4th Edition - 2005 survey report from Abbott, Langer & Associates, Inc.  The following describes the national median total cash compensation for 11 benchmark jobs.

The median annual income reported in a recent survey of the compensation of mechanical engineers was $88,000, with 10% making under $55,000 and 10% making over $139,731, according to Dr. Steven Langer, President of Abbott, Langer & Associates, Inc., Crete, IL. The composite highest-income practitioner in this field (salary plus cash bonus and/or cash profit sharing) is the President "B" (having little or no financial interest in an organization) with a median income of $160,000. Far toward the other end of the income spectrum, Junior Engineers have a median annual income of $52,000.

The middle-50% total cash compensation of some of the 37 jobs included in the survey report are:

Chief Marketing & Sales Executives $112,500 - $259,875
Professors (11-12 month appointment) $115,000 - $166,500
Environmental Managers $95,617 - $142,000
Engineering Directors/Vice Presidents $93,000 - $201,680
Principal Consultants $95,385 - $133,500
Chief Operating Officers "B" $90,000 - $174,000
Senior Engineers $75,000 - $100,000
Sales Representatives $59,250 - $128,500
Assistant Professors (9-10 month appointment) $63,000 - $84,000
Intermediate Researchers $56,000 - $81,000
Project Engineers $57,000 - $75,000

The highest median incomes by city are found in West Jersey (NJ), Anchorage, San Jose, Gainesville, the Virginia suburbs of Washington (DC), and the San Fernando Valley (all between $110,000 and $105,500). The lowest median annual incomes are found in Little Rock, San Juan (PR), Modesto/Stockton/Fresno, Lima/Findley (OH), Des Moines, and Honolulu (all between $58,000 and $70,000).

Compensation varies considerably from one type of employer to another. Median incomes are highest in hospitality organizations ($120,500), financial organizations ($119,811), in petroleum/coal/natural gas extraction and refining firms ($113,300), and for independent consultants ($100,000); and lowest in merchandising firms ($65,000), firms manufacturing heating/air conditioning/refrigeration products ($69,000), printing firms ($70,000), and firms manufacturing wood and wood products ($72,000).

By principal engineering specialty, the highest median incomes are found in information storage and processing systems ($127,000), petroleum ($120,000), management ($110,000), and nuclear engineering ($105,000). The lowest are found in solid waste processing ($75,000), manufacturing engineering ($76,000), design engineering ($77,432), nanotechnology ($80,250), and teaching/training ($82,000).

When level of education is taken into account, mechanical engineers with a doctoral degree earn a median annual income of $103,000, 29% higher than those who attended college but did not receive a bachelor's degree ($80,000).

Mechanical engineers with under one year of total engineering experience have a median income of $50,250, under one-half (47%) that of the 25-plus-year veteran ($107,000).

Those mechanical engineers with no supervisory responsibility have a median income of $78,000. For those supervising 250 or more professional & sub-professional employees, it is $167,000.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

On that note I would say that engineering is a very viable career.  

In fact those numbers seem downright pleasant.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

If you can get those positions, I would agree

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

3
Presumably you won't get those jobs if you are obviously incompetent, insufficiently experienced, or unwilling to move to the required location.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Y'know, I've noticed where the incomes are highest, so too are the local taxes, costs of living and I imagine most of these are in metropolitan areas. It's all relative. I make less than $70k, but my local area cost of living is a joke compared to many places.

I'm sure a lot of us know of folks earning over $80-$100k and can't save a penny, have no savings, and seem to live paycheck to paycheck.

Cheers!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Not so fast my friend!  I would not be so quick to think that "it is all relative" when it comes to cost of living to what you bring home in terms of a paycheck.  While pay does vary from place to place, and cost of living does as well, they do not necessarily go hand in hand.  Some places you really have to want to live there.  See this link:

http://www.salary.com/advice/layoutscripts/advl_display.asp?tab=adv&cat=nocat&ser=Ser359&part=Par531

A few years ago I moved from a city scoring in the "teens" to one in the low hundreds on this survey.  Paychecks were not much different but cost of living sure was!  Ouch it was painful!!!  Overall I am not a fan of the online calculators and such but can tell from experience not everything is relative, one place to the next.  I am not saying you do not have a good deal where you are but just the old adage that "the big city pays more but it costs more to live there" may not always be the case, at least not a true apples to apples.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I don't know, Newfella,

Well, at least I do know from experience Philly and Seattle both drain every penny from a good wage. Now I'm in semi-rural Dixie where the counties I haunt are old tobacco counties and are now up and coming viticultural regions.

But yeah, some places  - Houston I hear - and San Antonio - and Phoenix are s'posed to be okay.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

So you are saying that you live where the cost of living is lower, your wage may be lower than the big city but the quality of life is better?  I think that makes my point, the quality of life (and buying power) in your new location is an improvement over the old.  Otherwise the debate we be that your quality of life and "money leftover" at the end of the month would be no different than the big cities where you once lived as compared to now.  My point is that the "deal" each locale presents is not the apples to apples comparison that we all assumed.  The link I submitted supports that.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

"I would say that most people who got out of highschool when I did (1998) had money somewhat in mind when they chose engineering. "

Hahahahahahahahahahaha! I must laugh. "money in mind when they chose engineering" oh, I must sit down for a gut I will bust...

Did you ever think about how hard you had to work in college to all that money? hahahahahahahaha! Dude: lawyer = money, banker = money, moviestar = money, salesman = money.

Doctors, who have to work - an school, arguably 100% harder, than engineers, make twice what engineers make, though, again, the academic and career commitment is substantially higher.


"Chief Marketing & Sales Executives  $112,500 - $259,875"
Professors (11-12 month appointment) $115,000 - $166,500
Environmental Managers $95,617 - $142,000
Engineering Directors/Vice Presidents $93,000 - $201,680
Principal Consultants $95,385 - $133,500
Chief Operating Officers "B" $90,000 - $174,000
Senior Engineers $75,000 - $100,000
Sales Representatives $59,250 - $128,500
Assistant Professors (9-10 month appointment) $63,000 - $84,000
Intermediate Researchers $56,000 - $81,000
Project Engineers $57,000 - $75,000 "

Who amongst them actually does the work? I figure the professors/researchers and senior engineers actually do some engineering. The rest are either project/resource managers or salespeople.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

BTW, I chose enigneering because I liked to design and build things. I also wanted a title. "Engineer" is a nice title. I don't like people enough to be a doctor, and I don't dislke them enough to be a lawyer. I also make enough - as an engineer -  where I can save for a rainy day or several rainy years.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Actually I chose engineering AFTER being exposed to technology.

I was a Marine Biology major in the late seventies. It turned out not to be the career path I thought I wanted.

Anyway, at that time (1977-79) on the inside covers of match books (real matches, man) were these ads to: "Get Your Engineering Degree at Night!" It was a real laugh and I choked when thinking about engineering as a career - advertising in match books because the field was so desperate!

But then in the Navy I got steam turbine shool, and hydraulic equipment repair schools and all this neat technical experience and exposure to VERY expensive equipment and systems.

Then as an Air force Reserve jet technician during [my second time] in college (yes, engineering this time), I got jet engine schools which made Thermodynamics class a real breeze.

I guess it takes some getting used to.

Spito, Spitero, huchtooey Splateus!

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Looks like the shortage of engineers we were lead to believe existed is actually quite a surplus  (as all of us who have graduated college in the last few years know very well).

http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=14849&hed=U.S.+Engineers+Undercounted&sector=Industries&;subsector=Computing

billgl, I too chose Engineering in part because of high salaries when I left high school (1999), so don't feel too stupid.  Most salary reports showed Engineers doing quite well relative to just about any 4 year degree.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I'd be slightly more likely to take that article seriously if they explicitly stated they were talking about real engineers, not the vast majority of ITers. (I know it is possible to be a software engineer in the true sense of engineer, but there aren't many).

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

i just recently graduated college w/ an engineering degree...the words/phrases/ideas/thoughts/concepts/whatnot used to describe an engineer in my generation are:

smart, "make lots of money", can endure all the toughest problems/circumstances/etc., smart, innovative, intelligent, fast-learner...etc etc...and also don't forget: nerd, geek, booksmart, any other geek-related adjectives =P  but when i say "i'm in engineering" i get more "awes" than "oh...you're in engineering" (probably because i'm a female?)

from what i know, i thought the IT industry isn't doing so well?  they are actually looking for REAL engineers (i hear civil is hot...there are a whole bunch of electrical in my school)...but then again i can be wrong...i mean, i just graduated, what do i know about the market for engineering? =P

perhaps my generation are just...can we say delusional? hehe...

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

I think that the engingeering outlook is what you make of it.

If I recall correctly (at my age, it's starting to go), Jack Welch was a Chemical Engineer. He rose to CEO of GE.

Microsoft and Intel recently announced billions of dollars for R&D committed to their respective India research facilities.  They both currently employ lots of engineers.

Engineering as a field have a future.

Engineers have a future.

The future possibilities are what you make of it, what you are willing to "sacrafice" if I may use the term, to achieve your goals. What your priorities are.

Are you willing to relocate (eg. move to another country)?
Are you willing to put career ahead of famiiy (eg. move the family 8 times in 5 years).
Are you willing to work 60-80 hours a week while "climbing" the proverbial corporate ladder.
Are you willing to risk it and leave the corporate world to strike out on your own.

What kind of future do you want?


RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

3
I think the only chance to save engineering in this country is increasing the education requirements for licensure and the privelage to call yourself an "engineer".  Why have doctors and lawyers maintained status in society?  Because of the MD and JD degrees they need to ply their trades.  If a person was required to obtain a masters or doctorate in engineering, supply would decrease and pay would increase.  There would still be demand for lower-level engineers with BS degrees, and I venture to guess that salary would remain the same for those positions.  Think about it...  a civil engineer gets his 4 year degree, and embarks on a 4 year "apprentice" program to qualify for a PE.  This is similar to the track that plumbers and electricians take.  Why would we expect to enjoy the same fruits as the more highly educated professionals?  This would also quash most offshoring without resorting to unions.

-This is not my original idea.  It's a paraphrasing of a letter I read in the latest ASCE magazine, but it is the BEST solution yet to the problems facing engineers.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

suugest to chnage the way engineering is taught , why universites give degress in engineering without practice , I suugest that engineering be taught like medicne , make student practice in real enviornments before , giving thema  degree so that they will not suffer

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Proletariat. That idea would be fine IF the average engineer gained anything useful from the longer/higher courses. I see little evidence that in practice a Masters or PhD actually results in a better engineer, at least in automotive engineering. I'm reasonably convinced that that proposal is being promoted by the academics, who of course would have a great deal to gain.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

There are a lot of co-op programs out there that have a practical component.

The bottom line is that the profession is simply too broad to be able to have a mandated practice part of the curriculum.

Besides, at least in Canada you are not an engineer until you have your P.Eng status and that takes 4 years of practical experience beyond academic graduation.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

"Proletariat. That idea would be fine IF the average engineer gained anything useful from the longer/higher courses. I see little evidence that in practice a Masters or PhD actually results in a better engineer, at least in automotive engineering. I'm reasonably convinced that that proposal is being promoted by the academics, who of course would have a great deal to gain.
Cheers
Greg Locock"

You could say the same for doctors and lawyers.  I could probably become a pretty competent surgeon or litigator by hanging out in the O.R. or courts every day for a couple of years.  Generating a "better engineer" is dare I say, irrelevant when discussing our viability in the marketplace.  The abundance of engineers in the market has made us a commodity.  Limiting supply is one way to reverse this effect and increase salary.  One way of limiting supply is through greater academic requirements.  I think this is preferable to the alternate solution of unionizing and other protectionist ideas floating around out there.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

"I could probably become a pretty competent surgeon ... by hanging out in the O.R. ... for a couple of years."

Well, I'll just check what you've said with a theatre nurse.

No. You couldn't. Or at least, with a 4 year degree and 10 years of theatre work she says she could, at a pinch, sew everything back up and stuff it back into the right hole and close the skin.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

What happens when you realize the grass is NOT greener on the other side of the fence?
See the enclose median salary for Hollywood celebrity and other non-engineering career according to the BLS report and other sources published by MSN:

VIRTUAL JOBS:
•  Judge/Talent Scout- Simon Cowell, American Idol – Salary:???  $34 million, according to the London Daily Mirror. Even though Cowell is a real person, his stratospheric salary is far from typical.
•  Hollywood talent agent: ~$30,600. With 25 years of experience
•  Acting Company President, Michael Bluth, Arrested Development – :$140,350. Top executives can bring home the big bucks, but thanks to Bluth's father's dubious accounting practices, his paycheck might be a bit paltrier.

PROFFESIONAL CARREER:
•  Lawyer :~ $94,930, according to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics.
•  Plastic Surgeon: ~ $156,500
•  Medical Resident :~ $37,000, From an American Medical Association Report. If you break his salary down hourly, it just gets worse.
•  Forensic Scientist:~ $44,000

OTHER JOBS:
•  Nuclear Safety Inspector : ~ $64, 000.
•  Detective: ~ $54,000
•  CIA Agent/Investigator: ~ $50,000. The CIA keeps its salaries top-secret.Typ starting salary range is $34,000 and $52,000.
•  Interior Designer: ~ $40,700,
•  Children's Book Illustrator:~$38,060

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

well now, if a family needs to earn over $150K to own a home in LA, san diego, san jose, and san fran, then there is only a few combinations of spouse occupations that can live in those areas.

RE: engineering outlook for us young guys

Salary surveys are interesting.

William Clay Ford Jr. is the CEO of Ford. He says he will not draw a salary until Ford is profitable again.

Well, I guess then that this would fall under

PROFESSIONAL CAREER:
- CEO: ~ $0.00

It doesn't mean that he has no income. It just mean that his reported salary is $0.00. His income I am sure is much higher.

Many doctors own their own clinic(s). Most draw a salary. I am sure some also leave some capital in their corporations, either as working capital, for tax reasones, or to smooth out their personal income. When reporting salaries, they report what they draw. They probably would report a different number for the corporation's revenue.

Salary surveys does not necessarily give a complete picture of all salaries/benefits/compensation/perks from all sources.

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