That'll teach em.
That'll teach em.
(OP)
http://w ww.newswir e.ca/en/re leases/arc hive/Octob er2005/07/ c8913.html
A thousand dollar (Canadian)fine must really smart.
A thousand dollar (Canadian)fine must really smart.
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RE: That'll teach em.
Wes C.
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Make a dent in the Universe... do something great...
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
RE: That'll teach em.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: That'll teach em.
Regards,
RE: That'll teach em.
The $1000 penalty is simply large enough for the OIQ to save face. A $1 penalty was probably what the court would have liked to impose.
TTFN
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
tomato - tomato
thread1010-133755
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
This same story has played out in Texas as well with not only Microsoft, but lots of companies. Where you are heading to is one of the most portective states in regaurds to licensing. Be careful what you call yourself in your new state until you get that license.
RE: That'll teach em.
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
I guess I'm going to get out of it, and in the future just write my congressman.
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
TTFN
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
The issue is not the $1,000 fine but the establishment that the law is the law and that a US company cannot flout Canadian law in Canada.
The engineering acts here are generally clear. The usage of the term ‘engineer’ is protected to those who are members of the provincial professional engineering association.
http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/e120e.php
Clause 58(1) (b)
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
They are more like technicians. They program routers and internet equipment.
They don't size power cables, worry about designing the HVAC systems, worry about structural loading of their cables, worry about fire codes, or worry about the structural loading of the building they are putting their equipment in.
I have taken some of their classes. It was cool, but not engineering.
You should see some messes these microsoft certified technicians have created accross the country inside various companies.
RE: That'll teach em.
Let's not get too full of ourselves here. If we aren't careful, we will start sounding like doctors. They have this overinflated sense of themselves, yet all they do is patch us up when we're hurt. They are glorified mechanics, with a lot of schooling.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
And the AMA doesn't even bother to worry about that possibility, so the "Rug Doctor" happily coexists with real doctors. And I'm sure that many MD's are Rug Doctor clients and vice-versa.
TTFN
RE: That'll teach em.
Are you saying that anyone should be allowed to refer to themselves as an engineer as long as they have some carefully worded title? If Microsoft (or anyone) is allowed to refer to their various employees as engineers, then the title "engineer" will no longer have any meaning. Why then have licensing or universities or BSCE, BSME, BSEE, etc degrees at all? All we have to do is go find someone on the street, hire them, train them the way we see fit and give them the "engineer" title. Because thats what will happen if we allow companies like Microsoft to do as they please.
RE: That'll teach em.
EddyC,
This is not Microsoft calling it's own employees engineers under the industrial exemption. They are selling the title to anyone who has the cash and can pass a set of exams. http
RE: That'll teach em.
Likewise, there's no confusing an MCSE for a "real" engineer. They couldn't possibly offer nor perform ANY electrical, civil or mechanical, etc., engineering.
Frankly, anyone who does go to an MCSE for licenseable engineering work is a blithering idiot and would probably get ripped off no matter what happens, since the law is spottily enforced at best and someone that idiotic WILL find a fake PE to get himself ripped off. There was recently a website offering to sign off drawings, allegedly by real PEs. BUT, the rates advertised would have these guys spending less than 10 minutes per drawing to make any money to speak off.
TTFN
RE: That'll teach em.
Rug Doctors have no degrees whatsoever. There's no confusion here and no one is offering cut-rate surgery at the local Rug Doctor.
Likewise, there's no confusing an MCSE for a "real" engineer. They couldn't possibly offer nor perform ANY electrical, civil or mechanical, etc., engineering.
Frankly, anyone who does go to an MCSE for licenseable engineering work is a blithering idiot and would probably get ripped off no matter what happens, since the law is spottily enforced at best and someone that idiotic WILL find a fake PE to get himself ripped off. There was recently a website offering to sign off drawings, allegedly by real PEs. BUT, the rates advertised would have these guys spending less than 10 minutes per drawing to make any money to speak off.
TTFN"
I know lots of managers and upper management that wouldn't know the difference. It is the non-engineers in management that need educated on what engineers are. These are the same guys that hire a "engineer" through a temp company that has no background or degree and think they are getting a better deal than hiring the college grad out of school with his engineering degree for a few extra $$.
RE: That'll teach em.
McDonnell Douglas used to hire college grads irrespective of degrees or capabilities even before there was a Microsoft, so can't really lay that one on Bill's front step. One July, we got a brand spanking new BS computer science grad from USC. The fact that we did no programming, had no computers to speak of and that we were primarily a semiconductor physics group didn't seem to enter into the allocation equation.
But I digress... What's my motivation for helping an idiot like that? Do I really want to make it easier for such a dunce to keep his job by making sure that he can't make hiring mistakes?
Fire his ass and help him get a decent job at McDonald's is what I would vote for. I think it would make for a pretty good laugh if someone like that did hire an MCSE to do electro-optical systems engineering. Would make my day
TTFN
RE: That'll teach em.
I suppose it is these same people that hire Electrical Engineers to work on rotating machinery (hard-ware engineers).
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
Things like generators and motors, for example...?
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One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!
RE: That'll teach em.
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
First of all, I will state that I am not believer in any State, Provincial or Territorial board or association having the right of ownership to a word in the English language when used as part of a title, legislating that it can only be used by those who are licensed to carry out work in the various branches of engineering. Engineering being interpreted as what some of the people here perceive it that is. The boards and associations should concern themselves more with the misconduct and incompetence of some of their members.
However, there are some of you, and you know who you are, that insist on getting their knickers in a knot over this issue. Since the MCSE seemed to have been the whipping boy here, let’s look at him. Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer is not misleading to me. The words Microsoft and Systems tell me that the guy is in the IT business and the word Certified, being where it is placed in the title, tells me that Microsoft has certified him as being able to engineer networks using their products. The word Engineer however, certainly doesn’t make me lose sleep thinking that this guy is going to get involved in tall buildings or bridges when things are slow. Furthermore, his title is a little more imaginative and descriptive than “real” engineer.
The first time your local EMS network is down and brought back up pretty quick, give guys like these some credit as the do really engineer networks. You would be surprised what runs under Windows these days.
As a closing comment, a little professionalism is lost on some of the egotistic and snobby attitudes here. A four year degree, three Greek letters on a sweatshirt and membership in an association does not always make a good engineer. The comments regarding the medical profession, I won’t even acknowledge.
Angelo D. Papadakis P.Eng ( C.Eng, M.I. StructE.)
RE: That'll teach em.
Those microsoft guys aren't engineers. I work with plenty of them. They won't be engineers until they start taking into concideration of the HVAC loading, power cable sizing, infrastructure, and ect that their equipment is housed in.
They should be called Microsoft IT Certified rather than Engineer.
I have had to clean up to many messes created by Microsoft Certified people that has created dangerous situations that they don't even realize they are creating. I have seen floors overloaded and nearly collapsing on the floor below due to too much equipment being installed in a facility by a Microsoft Certified Engineer or a Cisco Certified Engineer. These guys need to open their eyes and realize they are network programers and designers.
RE: That'll teach em.
Slugger,
The situation you described cannot be blamed on the Microsoft guy as there was clear lack of planning and communication between the parties involved. The Microsoft guy's job was to engineer and install his networking equipment. It was not his job to do an analysis on floor loading. A structural engineer should have been involved. The whole issue is, these Microsoft guy's, by using the word engineer in their title were not professing to say the floors were structuraly adequate for the loading conditions. They do there thing, other types of engineers are called upon, or should be, to do theirs.
RE: That'll teach em.
[quote] The comments regarding the medical profession, I won’t even acknowledge.[\quote]
You just did.
My head hurts. I think there's a pharmacist in the parking lot.
RE: That'll teach em.
If a title does not really matter, then why are non-engineering degree people so up in arms about not having the title of Engineer in their title? Designers should not be embarrassed to have design in their title, techs should not be embarrassed to have technologist in their title, draftsmen should not be embarrassed to have draftsmen in their title, …what is so embarrassing about not having the title of engineer in your title? They will still be treated and paid the same, engineering title or not.
Go Mechanical Engineering
Tobalcane
RE: That'll teach em.
Wes616
Innovator
... everythings else is so limiting.
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
I should add that the Microsoft guys were more than likely instructed to place the equipment as specified by someone else. Doesn't that tell you something? They are not getting into areas beyond their expertise.
RE: That'll teach em.
"Don't ever go to work in Britain...you will spend more of the productive day arguing over titles than keeping your mind on the task at hand"
As an engineer working in Britain for over 25 years I've never come across this attitude so I think some evidence needs to be presented.
RE: That'll teach em.
That is the difference between an engineer and someone with only some technical training. Engineers know at least enough about the other disciplines to know that they should be asking them some questions and ensuring that the final solution is safe and workable from all perspectives, Someone with only technical training, in one field, simply does not have this background to know when to ask someone else for help.
Engineers know that engineering is a team activity.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng
Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com
RE: That'll teach em.
I have seen those issues first hand too many times. The someone with only some technical training tends to think that they know everything while the engineers acknologes they only know a specialised area in a vast sea.
RE: That'll teach em.
RDK,
I have never worked on a project where the IT guys place their equipment where ever it takes their fancy. Locations are specified on drawings and floor loading has been taken into account by the appropriate person. This is where engineering is a team activity. Another storm would brew if the IT people dared question the structural integrity of the floor.
RE: That'll teach em.
Jordonlaw,
I will attempt to clarify my statement in the form of an explanation. In the U.S. and Canada, licensed engineers are, for the want of a better term, very particular as to the use of the word “engineer” in a job title. Rightly so I might add, as in most, if not all States and Provinces it is unlawful to use this title unless one is a Licensed Professional Engineer. Anyone who is not licensed, even with industry exemption, meaning someone not providing services to the public, can be brought before the courts and fined if they use the word “engineer” in their title. These actions should be restricted to any individual who falsely represents themselves as being licensed and offers services to the public. Personally, I don’t agree with the ruling solely on the word use as I think it is a trivial matter but that’s just my opinion.
As you will be well aware, the use of the word in Britain is widely used in may job descriptions ranging from tradesmen to licensed professionals and, being from Britain myself, was used to this and never at any time did I take offense, hence my opinion on the use of the word in a job title. An example of this would be the tradesman installing the HVAC system would routinely introduce himself as the heating engineer.
My statement about spending half the day arguing about titles was in reference to many of our Canadian or American colleagues who may have difficulty accepting this as being normal and generally accepted.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
RE: That'll teach em.
EddyC,
There is something missing in the examples I am reading. If equipment would impose loads of questionable magnitude on the floor, since when is it the telecom guy's employer's call as to where it is placed. There seems to be important players who should be making these decisions missing on some of these projects.
All I am saying is the telecom engineer or the network engineer isn't hoodwinking anyone into believing he is something he is not by using these job descriptions.
RE: That'll teach em.
I'm a chemical engineer and I suspect you'd be better off getting an MSCE to look at your floor loading or your power cable size than asking me to do it, even though I've got a degree and I'm allowed to use the title engineer (OK so not quite yet according to your rules, but it won't be too long off and I'll still not know any more about those subjects!)
Being an MSCE doesn't necessarily mean you are stupid. Being a PE doesn't necessarily mean you are smart enough to ask for help.
RE: That'll teach em.
Stevenal,
I agree that there are some PE's in certain diciplines who might cross their borders of expertise just enough to raise concern even if it is bad judgement rather than blatent misconduct. The MCSE however, regardless of calling him/herself an engineer, isn't any more likely to dabble in structural engineering any more than you are.
RE: That'll teach em.
Well said kchayfie,
Dirty Harry was of the same opinion with his line..."Every man should know his limitations"
RE: That'll teach em.
I have replaced alarm equipment in a flood prone area where the equipment was placed underneath the floor. You can guess what happened everytime it flooded, the alarms wouldn't report problems because they went down before the equipment. I have seen structural damage after earthquakes where beams were pulled from the wall, but Cisco Certified Engineers were still trying to stuff equipment into the facility. I have seen HVAC problems from these same guys all over the world. These same guys forget about physical security as well, but they do remember the software security.
RE: That'll teach em.
Obviously, the MSCE should say, "Oh, BTW, you do realize I'm adding 5 tons to the floor load?" But, when the bid and proposal is made, the customer has the ultimate responsibility to realize that there's more weight being added. If the customer doesn't raise a concern about floor loading, I think that the MSCE has a reasonable basis for assuming that the floor loads are acceptable.
For that matter, how the BH would an MSCE come up with unstacked IT hardware that exceeds 100 lb/sq ft flooring loading?
TTFN
RE: That'll teach em.
Wes C.
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In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics! - Homer Simpson
RE: That'll teach em.
A professional in Canada is held to a higher standard of law with respect to tort and negligence. I agree electrical and computer engineering have to lowest dollar value claims made against them but the principle is to prevent dilution of the term engineer. An engineer has a duty to protect the public, a MSCE has a duty to make some cash. A MSCE would not face disciplinary actions for violating the engineering code of ethics.
I have found computer techs to have some questionable ethics, including those working on systems that protect the public. In their defence, a group called C.I.P.S. is attempting to create a professional organization with ethical standards and organization for the IT world. For some jobs this obviously isn't required but think of some of the computer hardware and software in our daily lives that affects public safety.
>Personally, I don’t agree with the ruling solely on the word use as I think it is a >trivial matter but that’s just my opinion.
RE: That'll teach em.
They may have the lowest dollar claims because most people never realize or see what happens when one of their systems fail. It may be poor programming that allows identity theft, or mis-routing of a 911 call that costs time in an emergency.
Their failures can be as divistating as a bridge falling down, but the destruction can't be viewed with helicoptors on the nightly news.