Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
(OP)
Hello All
A 352 LCC Valve casting is found to have repairable defect.
Weld repair is planned.
The valve is Designed to ASME/ANSI B 16.34 which refers to ASME SEC VIII Div 1 for the purpose of the repair welds and ASME SEC XI regarding the Procedure Qualification.
The Valve manufacturer has ordered the casting on the foundry, and has specified that casting shall be accompanied by the material Test Certificate.
Now the WPS proposed(Supported by PQRT) by the foundry takes care of the Heat treatment. The soaking time at the PWHT temperature, are consistent with depth of the repair.
The valve manufacturer informs that, since the casting is going to be subsequently heat treated again, future heat treatment cycle has to be taken care of in the PQRT, therefore the PQRT specimen shall undergo additional simulated heat treatment.
The foundry informs that if additional heat treatment is done then the material certificate will not indicate that the material is A 350 LF2 because the material Spec A 350 LF2 dictates that the heat treatment of the casting shall be as per PQRT. Since the PQRT and the WPS is going to specify additional heat treatment and the Casting is going to be heat treated by the foundry for lesser time the material certificate of the casting cannot be A 352 LCC.
Is it necessary to simulate the heat treatments for PQRT when reparing Plates, Pipes, Forgings, Castings?
How does ASME address this issue?
I am sure many of the castings and large forgings as repaired and subsequently used in ASME applications, what does the ASME say about this.
A 352 LCC Valve casting is found to have repairable defect.
Weld repair is planned.
The valve is Designed to ASME/ANSI B 16.34 which refers to ASME SEC VIII Div 1 for the purpose of the repair welds and ASME SEC XI regarding the Procedure Qualification.
The Valve manufacturer has ordered the casting on the foundry, and has specified that casting shall be accompanied by the material Test Certificate.
Now the WPS proposed(Supported by PQRT) by the foundry takes care of the Heat treatment. The soaking time at the PWHT temperature, are consistent with depth of the repair.
The valve manufacturer informs that, since the casting is going to be subsequently heat treated again, future heat treatment cycle has to be taken care of in the PQRT, therefore the PQRT specimen shall undergo additional simulated heat treatment.
The foundry informs that if additional heat treatment is done then the material certificate will not indicate that the material is A 350 LF2 because the material Spec A 350 LF2 dictates that the heat treatment of the casting shall be as per PQRT. Since the PQRT and the WPS is going to specify additional heat treatment and the Casting is going to be heat treated by the foundry for lesser time the material certificate of the casting cannot be A 352 LCC.
Is it necessary to simulate the heat treatments for PQRT when reparing Plates, Pipes, Forgings, Castings?
How does ASME address this issue?
I am sure many of the castings and large forgings as repaired and subsequently used in ASME applications, what does the ASME say about this.





RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
The weld procedure used for the repair of the casting at the foundry should be qualified using ASME Section IX guidelines, and the heat treatment referenced in the material Specification or Standard. This is the only heat treatment that should be used on the WPQR.
Once the casting has been certified to the particular material Specification, any future weld repairs or PWHT or stress relieving will be in accordance with the Code of Construction or some other Construction Standard that will require a separate weld procedure, and referenced PWHT requirements.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
We did put this argument to the client. But he is slightly uneasy.How can i support my argument, is there some interpration. Say for plate or forging specification, if not in a casting?
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
I have never seen it implied in any Code or Standard that one has to account for future weld repairs in a finished product.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
Review ASME SA-703 Specification. This is one of the Reference Documents that pertains to General Requirements for Castings.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
According to SA-350, "when forgings are thermally treated after repair welding, the weld procedure test shall be subjected to the same heat treatment". The foundry can produce a new PQR to include subsequent HT.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
What you state has already been stated above in the orginal post - "Now the WPS proposed(Supported by PQRT) by the foundry takes care of the Heat treatment. The soaking time at the PWHT temperature, are consistent with depth of the repair."
The argument as I understand it is any subsequent PWHT to the valve, after the casting has been certified to meet SA 350.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
and you may have to comply with the valve mfr,
they want to cover their part w/o expenses and if you have to run another test you are in the 500 - 1000 Dlls or more in expenses. plate/welding/2 heat treats/ 2 lab works
genb
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
My understanding is the same as GenB's.
The casting has not been certified yet since we are still talking about repair. Valve manufacture wants the foundry PQR for repair work to cover the heat treatment they (valve manufacture) are going to do on the piece after fabrication. The foundry does not want to do it because they have to produce a new PQR which will cost some money.
If the valve manufacture covers the cost of new PQR, I do not see any reason that foundry cannot certify the material to SA350.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
What I find interesting is that the valve manufacturer SHOULD have the necessary weld procedures to handle this activity without having to rely on the foundry.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
Having done that, we need to be clear on whether the requirement to simulate a subsequent heat treatment in the qualification was specified to the casting supplier (along with the specific heat treatment procedure to apply)in the order. If not, it's an extra and the foundry has every right to request payment for so doing. Materials certificates don't enter into the discussion, particularly as the valve manufacturer will have to recertify the material after the planned heat treatment.
Steve Jones
Materials & Corrosion Engineer
http://www.pdo.co.om/pdo/
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
to fulfill the weld repair, PWHT is to be performed.
If the casting was perfect no PWHT by the foundry was needed, so at the end the foundry is to cover for the problem.
This is a complicated business matter, now it is not Code related, but Who has to pay for what!!! What about getting some lawyers involved,
Are you in California? if not you are lucky
is it clear?
genb
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
Instead of A 352 LCC, i mixed it up with A 350 LF2.
The intent of the query was regarding A 352 LCC and NOT
A 350 LF2.
However the query is applicable for all product forms.
To reword the query
Is it the intent of A 352, that the PQRT for welding repair take care of the future heat treatments which the item may under go after leaving the foundry?
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
Question: Is it the intent of A 352, that the PQRT for welding repair take care of the future heat treatments which the item may under go? (I purposely left out foundry and valve supplier because this is a contractual issue not a technical issue)
Reply: Yes, SA-352 requires weld repairs to be performed in accordance with ASME Section IX. The organization that is responsible for weld repair and certification of the casting shall be responsible for all necessary PWHT on the PQR.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?
(the foundry triggered/caused the priblem therfore the valve mfr wants the foundry to cover the cost- it make sense to me) but as METENGR says at the end it is a contractual problem and not a Code problem. The foundry wants to get away from thir mess by finding a way not to create a simulation of the second h"casting HT", which it may be inevitable.
it is a mess!!! I think that Codewise the simulation is needed and it is an expensive one, someone has to pay for.
I am out of this now. this has to end somehow.
Good Bye.
RE: Should i Simulate the future PWHT on my PQRT?