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young eng's
7

young eng's

young eng's

(OP)
Hello everyone, I have a question that I have been meaning to ask for a while.  I pick up points relating to it all the time in other threads but I'd like to start a seperate thread.

What mistakes do you see most often with young engineers?  Is there a certain mindset most have that they have to get over to be successful, or perhaps a certain skill to work on?

I just started work and I've already noticed two problems I have to work on.  First, I get flustered sometimes with having so many different things on the go.  I'll start working on something then i'll check my email and get something related to another project and then all of a sudden i've started somthing new and left the first matter incomplete.  Second, I have a hard time seperately personal and professional work.  If I have a problem with something personal I find that often times it takes me a while to forget it and start work.

Are these common problems with younger eng's, or are these a matter more specific to me?  I feel I do my job well, and feel as thought I'm making progress on these aspects but i still catch myself doing them often.

RE: young eng's

Prioritization is something that can't be taught. It comes with experience. And as a matter of fact, many (experienced) engineers don't understand it either. My suggestion regarding this is Communicate. Let your supervisor know what is on your plate. They can give you guidance regarding forming priorities in the intrest of your company.

Remember the old saying, "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergeny on my part."

As far as personal issues go... It's just business. Say that to yourself all the time. A guy at my work takes everthing so personally. It creates a real negative work environment. Work should be fun... I mean you will spend a majority of your life there.

Wes C.

RE: young eng's

We have one engineer who's particularly good about documenting EVERY assignment.  

Sometimes our boss will want a priority task to be done and this engineer will whip out his notebook and ask which of his 50 assignments should be deferred.

TTFN



RE: young eng's

It sounds like you have several projects on the go at once. I hate that.

1) switch off your email. check it at the start of each day, and after lunch.

2) Have a separate folder for each project. Stack them on your desk. Once a week or once a day (depending on the timeframe of your projects) - decide which is the highest priority. If you have trouble prioritising, ask someone else, preferably your supervisor. If he won't decide, pick the one you are most interested in (grin, they'll eventually help you with prioritising). Put that one on top, second highest priority is the next one down, etc. Work on the top one until you get stuck. Then make sure you have set whatever wheels need to be set in motion to resolve that block, and pick up the next most important folder. You may well find you never get to the bottom of the pile. Make sure your supervisor knows this.

"What mistakes do you see most often with young engineers?"

Lack of self confidence, but also a tendency not to delve deeply into things.

A few other tips which the kids round here could usefully absorb:

Always double check your calculations before picking a fight. And try not to 'opinion shop'. Don't be afraid to change things, that is your job. Ask questions and pay attention to the answers. Think. Keep a notebook. If you are running late on a job you promised tell the customer as soon as you can.


Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

RE: young eng's

I think that younger engineers often make the mistake of taking criticism of and/or feedback on their work as a personal attack.  Nobody expects you to know everything straight out of school, but they do expect that when someone points out a mistake that you'll graciously learn from it and not throw a fit.  

I also see people with a few years at the company finding their way into more and more important work, but feeling "sunburnt by the spotlight" when they, for example, get asked by upper management to explain the root causes of a particular problem that appeared, or when they're told that a certain situation is not acceptable.  I've seen a few people break into tears during what I interpreted to be fairly benign discussions of serious problems (sure, they were turdstorms, but carry a toothbrush and keep smiling).  

Then there's the mistake of not presenting yourself appropriately for the audience - if you get up in front of management in sloppy clothes and start using "teen slang" in your discussion of an issue, you will not make the right impression, you'll lose credibility, and you'll have a hard time getting your point across.  Having the right answer is only a part of the equation - people have to be willing to accept it when it comes out of your mouth, too.  

Remember the old saying, "Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."

Yeah, I'll never forget that one - a supplier representative said that to me during a phone conference to discuss our most urgent needs.  We had several managerial types in the room who couldn't quite figure out how the comment could be construed as an acceptable response.  All eyes were on me for a minute as people waited to see how I'd handle the remark - I told him that regardless of his opinions about how the situation was initiated, he and his company needed to do their part to improve it, and recommended that he start working on a plan to achieve the required results (bullet list of expectations), and get back to me with the plan the following morning (he'd been given the list two days earlier, and that meeting was supposed to be a discussion of his status and plans).  Luckily for him, none of the manager types was upset enough to immediately turn it into a "lack of employment on his part," but several of them asked whether I'd like them to speak to someone about getting me a different representative.  I took him aside the next time we met to explain to him just how well his reponse was received (didn't mention the rep change suggestions).

RE: young eng's

oh - and never underestimate the ability of a good tie and crisp shirt to shield the wearer from criticism.

RE: young eng's

Like Greg, I chew on a problem until I hit a hard spot, pour some acid on the hard spot, and work on a different problem for a while.

I keep a chron file for every project, in which I record, as factually as possible, what happened and when, and who said what to whom.  No opinion, no conjecture, no rumor; just facts observed first hand.  Small words, short sentences, minimal reference to other documents.  I usually copy associated emails or excerpts thereof into these chron files, delimited with meta- tags <email> and </email>, and annotated with date time sender and recipients.  Similarly for phone conversations.  The entire chronology of a project is thus recorded in one place.

I also keep a log file of what I've been working on, so I'll know which chron file to look in to find out what happened on a given day.

Lately, I've acquired a new habit; images.  I've got a digital camera that can record hundreds of stills or an hour of video.  I keep in in my pocket pretty much all the time.  Anything interesting gets its picture taken.  I also take pictures of associated tracking objects like tags; it's faster than writing notes, and provides context for the images.  

For the past five years, I've been working on parts for yachts, ~175 projects per year, and after a while they sort of merged into a big white blur in my mind.  The notes and photos helped keep them distinct.

I would be okay with having fewer projects at once, but never just one; I hate getting stuck and having nothing else to distract me.

I only wear ties to funerals and weddings, but ivymike is probably right about their ability to shed, er, stuff.








 

Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: young eng's

As a young engineer, I see other young engineers make 2 kinds of mistake that make me wince:

1) having the audacity to tell more experienced, well respected engineers that they are wrong
and
2) not having the confidence to tell more experienced, well respected engineers that they are wrong

Even now, after working with the same people for 3 years, I can't always tell if they have misunderstood the problem I've asked for their help on, or if their solution solves the problem in some way I can't quite understand. However, my 3 years experience has taught me how to ask for clarification without implying the senior engineer has no idea what he's doing!

RE: young eng's

The biggest mistakes i made as a young engineer and still do at new jobs is underestimating the importance of the relationship with your supervisor.

Now you may say, engineerdave this is obvious, but let me tell you why this is a problem.

I've noticed a few types of people
1) The type that keep their supervisor informed of everything they are doing and ask advice on everything
2) The people that wish to work independently as much as possible without asking questions.

I fell into number 2. I hate asking questions, but at the root of it was I didn't want to look dumb. So I would spend twice as much time figuring stuff out for myself, but I still enjoyed that.

I'm suggesting another option, option #3.

3) You keep a good level of rapport and contact with your supervisor. This to me is critical.

RE: young eng's

As a young engineer I know my biggest problem is lack of confidence in my knowledge and abilities as an engineer.  The biggest problem I see with other young, and more experienced, engineers is their lack of drive to be better than what they are.  In a word, many are plain lazy.  Knowledge and ability doesn't come to you, you must work for it.

RE: young eng's

I think the two issues you mentioned are everybody's problem, not only young engineers. I have 67(!) things going on in parallel at the moment, it takes some getting used to and it takes rigourous priority management. I took a time management training a few years ago and it taught me quite a lot.

The main typical young engineer's problem IMHO is taking too many things for granted. Thinking that things are the way they are because there is a good reason. Thinking that people work a certain way because it has proven the best way. Thinking that a lab analysis result is an exact number cast in bronze, the result of an infallible infinitely accurate measure on a perfectly representative sample. Thinking that whatever Mr Experience says/does/ever tried is gospel because he is Mr (Mrs) Experience.

You should really filter and test every piece of information you obtain. Do your work like a journalist. One data point is no data point. Two data points is a suggestion. Three data points start to look like a solid basis to work on.

RE: young eng's

That's MISTER Experience, with emphasis and deference, thank you.  

And no, you don't pay attention to me because I know how to do it right; you pay attention because I know a thousand ways to do it wrong, and maybe one way that's less wrong.

Accept this:  Everyone is right, from their own perspective.  You can almost always learn something useful by being polite, listening, and yes, filtering and testing and cross- checking.  Pay particular attention to the burnouts, who once cared, and the bad attitudes, who still do.

Don't accept 'lore', or "we've always done it that way" at face value, but do put some serious effort into analyzing the related problem.  You will almost always find that the recommended action is the correct one, even if the reasoning behind it is widely misunderstood.

When you go out in 'the shop', resist the urge to touch or pick up things that catch your eye.  Always ask permission of the person doing the work, _before_ touching anything.  You might inadvertently break something delicate, or disturb a setup that cost days of work.  In a union shop,  touching things without permission is grounds for a grievance.  If it's a Machinists Union shop, the grievant will get an extra payday, and you'll get a black mark on your record, which will be brought to your attention at your next review.  You won't be warned beforehand, and you won't get a chance to defend or explain yourself.  HR just automatically writes a check and silently writes you up.  You'll only find out about it if you happen to be nearby when the grievant receives the check and gives you a big smile.  

Be cautious of people who smile at you for no apparent reason.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: young eng's

Certainly, everyone is right from their own perspective, but... each time I made a multi million $ contribution to the chem plant with an intelligent idea (not that I am so smart but still it happened to me a few times), it was because I refused to believe the eternal "we tried that, it won't work" or the "we never did that, it won't work".

Having said that, you are also right when you say everyone including Mr Experience and including Joe the operator must be paid attention to, because there's a good chance they will give you valuable information.

RE: young eng's

Quote:



The biggest problem I see with other young, and more experienced, engineers is their lack of drive to be better than what they are.  In a word, many are plain lazy.  Knowledge and ability doesn't come to you, you must work for it.


I see this all the time.  I disagree with the "lazy" part though. IMHO, it's about not REALLY understanding what they were getting themselves into when it comes to this work.

It takes a SPECIAL type of personality to "make it" doing engineering. Thats why so many are not doing the work after a few years... run as fast as they can into management, or generally have grumpy and disgruntled attitudes.

I mean really... the biggest recruiting point for Engineering Colleges is... "hey you like science, and are good at math... why don't you be an engineer." Most of the time, this is a bad approach. It's like telling  a kid who plays with matches that he should be a fireman when he grows up. :)

But hey, this again is for a different thread.

Sorry for going off topic...

Wes C.

RE: young eng's

Few observations on "some" young engineers in structural engineering:

1. blind faith in computers (forgetting GIGO)
2. fear of asking questions
3. overanalysing
4. being too precise with the calculations

Many things are learned on the job.  A key to success for young engineers is not to be afraid of asking questions, absorb information (good practices and bad), don't take shortcuts out of plain laziness.

Experienced engineers also have "problems" of their own.  That is a whole another topic.  Experienced engineers should admit that even the most junior engineers can tach them a thing or two.

RE: young eng's

I would say that lack of confidence resulting in overanalyzing a problem is my situation too. It gets better once you see that your design works.

I'm in my 5th year now (1st on the current job) and finding my self still stumbling across those problems that all of you mentioned. I learned that being able to make a decision based on the fact is very important. I also learned this, to design part that are cheap and fast to make, and function great is a great goal but most of the time I need to sacrifice one of the three.

Don't let pressure of due date, etc effect the integrity of your design. I had many experiences that my manager was breathing down my neck every 2 hours asking me if the design is done, that time I panic and learned the hard way ( the design failed misserably in front of customer and I looked like a complete moron that day).

If you're not sure about your design find a way to test it and make your decision based off of it.

my 2 cent
MSU2000

RE: young eng's

Make a decision. A wrong decision is better than no decision at all.

Wes C.

RE: young eng's

as long as it doesn't cost the company too much money...

RE: young eng's

Don't ever be afraid of loosing your job. Guess what... You will loose it (laid off, fired, etc.) It happens. If you loose your job, you will find another.

Wes C.

RE: young eng's

The one thing all young engineers lack is experience, they always have and they always will, everyone in the company was once in the position you are in. People feel flustered when they are unfamiliar with anything, be it making the sports team, taking a driving test, public speaking, it is perfectly normal.

My advice would be to see how others around you work and try and glean the best bits from as many as possible, what works for one may not work for another, but that makes neither right or wrong. Find out what works for you.

Never feel you know more than someone under you, a guy who works a certain machine for example will know far more about it than you, win the trust and hopefully friendship of as many people as possible.

Find out whom you can trust and “use” them but try to make it a two-way thing, something as simple as getting them a coffee when you go to the machine could help.

I strongly disagree with the idea of make a decision a wrong decision is better than no decision. Any fool can make a decision, the reason you are in the position you are in is because you are trusted to make the right one more times than not, use whatever is available to you to make that happen.

In what will seem like no time you will be the one young engineers are coming to for guidance, help them as others have helped you.

Most important of all, enjoy and take pride in what you do, it will take up a large piece of your life, enjoy the ride, good luck.

RE: young eng's

It is very easy to go along with the "that's the way it's always been" line, especially when you are young. It takes a lot of confidence and sometimes a degree of pig-headed audacity, to say "yes, it's always been like that and it's always been wrong, and I'm going to change it" when you're the new boy (or girl) stood in front of all the old hands.

I've ruffled the feathers of most of the engineers and managers I work with at one time or another in efforts to change years of well-intentioned ignorance. Things might occasionally have gone more smoothly if I had a bit more diplomacy in my character; I haven't always got the recognition I deserved for some of my achievements because I'd bulldozered the opinions of too many people in reaching the target. Second bit of advice: learn a little diplomacy early on in your career.

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

RE: young eng's

2
"Make a decision. A wrong decision is better than no decision at all."

Only if there's a mechanism in place to catch your error before it kills someone.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: young eng's

We wouldn't want to make a decision that would hurt someone or bankrupt the company, but there are a lot of wrong decisions you can make that will result in no more than a box of scrap parts and damage to your pride. In such cases, if you don't know what direction to take and you make the wrong choice, at least you make a step up on the learning curve and know what not to try next time. Sometimes projects never get finished, or started, because someone is afraid of a mistake.

RE: young eng's

"Sometimes projects never get finished, or started, because someone is afraid of a mistake."

Yes, he who never makes a mistake, never makes anything.

As for wrong decisions, if you are able to give honest reasons why you chose to make a decision then people will respect you for your honesty.
Sometimes you have to hold your hands up and say "Yes, I f***ed up..." but to keep control of the situation its always good to quickly follow up with "... now heres what I'm going to do to rectify the problem..."

RE: young eng's

Despite my previous post, I do believe that getting the decision made and moving things forward is important.  There are ways to make decisions that, while maybe not "the right" ones, are still safe.  

For example, if the answer is needed NOW, the answer can be "no, you can't do that".  It might turn out not be true, but it won't jeopardize anyone's safety.  This can be refined to "If you really need an answer now, then the answer is no, and you need to find a different way.  If you want a better answer, you'll have to wait."

I've seen both sides of this.  I've had to hold things up because my Expert Advisor is afraid to make a call on anything, and I've seen things go wrong because someone put speed ahead of thought in the name of Get The Decision made.  

In this area, experience teaches several things:
1.  How to judge when the decision really does need to be made NOW (because the person asking will *always* say it's dreadfully urgent).
2.  Tricks such as the above for getting things moving in a way that may not be satisfactory for everyone but at least get things moving without major risk.
3.  The ability to come up with the "right" answer on the spot in more and more situations as time goes on.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: young eng's

One of the characteristics that is consistent among "bad" engineers, whether they are newly graduated or experienced, is that they fail to learn from their own mistakes so they keep repeating them.

A characteristic that is common among "good" engineers is that they do learn from their own mistakes, so they don't repeat them.

Gifted engineers learn from the mistakes of others. They realize that they won't live long enough to make them all themselves.


Maui

Constants aren't; variables won't.

RE: young eng's

Good point, Maui. Bad engineers become bad managers. Good engineers become bad managers because they have to conform to the status quo. Gifted engineers start their own companies.

RE: young eng's

First, mistakes often made by young engineers:

1) Thinking every problem has an immediate "cookbook" solution that doesn't require them to pick up a book and figure it out
2) Thinking there is a solution to every problem......sometimes you just have to go with your best / most reasonable solution. This goes along with the "just make a decision" ideas said by others
3) Overpromising.....when you are new, you have no idea how long it is going to take. So don't just nod your head to the "it should take you no more than two hours" that your boss or coworker said. That will put you behind because you will take on more than you can handle.
4) Not realizing that "the best you can do" IS good enough. Face it, the boss and engineers around you are overworked. They are going to pile on every little thing they can to get it from thier plate to yours. But you can only do as much as you can do. At this point you have to be honest with those around you (especially the boss) and learn how to say "no" / "enough"

Now, two pieces of advise that were given to me when I was a newbie...
1) At the end of every day, make a list of the five things you must get done tomorrow....then GET THEM DONE. This will require motivation and being able to say no as noted above. But I promise you, no single piece of advise will get you further in your career as an engineer.
2) Perception is reality......no matter how hard you work, no matter how many hours you put in, if you are seen as someone who comes in late / dresses sloppy / doesn't keep promises / fill-in-the-blank.......then THAT is how you will be perceived....especially at raise or promotion time.

Good luck and always keep in mind WHY you are working.

ZCP
www.phoenix-engineer.com

RE: young eng's

"Engineering is the art of educated guessing"

RE: young eng's

Young engineers also often believe that they can have all the information to solve any problem.

In school you are ‘given’ the facts and then have to apply a process to these givens to arrive at a solution.

In the real world what is a given on the exam, is often the hardest thing to figure out or determine. You may not be able to get more than a range of numbers for a given and have to apply some sensitivity analysis to see just how important the assumptions are on the final outcome.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion
www.kitsonengineering.com

RE: young eng's

Recently, I have thought a lot about what makes a person (not just engineers) successful. Two common characteristics come to mind when I look at successful people.

1. They are not afraid to be unconventional, "buck the system" or fail.

2. They do what they want/like to do and they don't do what they don't want/like to do. In other words, if it is not their "passion" or they don't have fun doing it, they won't do it.

That said, I have trouble being like this. I am afraid of failing and I believe you have to do things you don't like to do. That is probably why I am not a big successful person!

Gail

RE: young eng's

Gabbot,

Everyone is afraid of failing... the first (or second time). When you have failed at least three times, you get over it... realize that you win some and loose some...

Sometimes you have to do things you don't like to do (that is part of life). But you can make ANYTHING fun (just look a prison)

Wes C.
------------------------------
There are no engineers in the hottest parts of hell, because the existence of a 'hottest part' implies a temperature difference, and any marginally competent engineer would immediately use this to run a heat engine and make some other part of hell comfortably cool.  This is obviously impossible.

RE: young eng's

"The ones make mistakes are those who are working and the ones don't make mistakes are those who are not working"
Remember the following as well:
- If you need to get the trust from the management, you should be working logically and to be effective and efficient in the assignments you have been given.
- You should establish good communications with your team and boss as to get others help in your work.
- Organize yourself well by doing: To-do list daily and prioritize your activities and assignments with defined target dates; and making a proper filling of your documents.
- Be pro-active most of your time as to anticipate problems and any issues before happing, by this, you will be looked as an active engineer.
- Seek the experience of other people who know your field well.
- Get training, self-study courses, read books to gain knowledge and better skills

It is very generic subject to cover in lines, and I hope that I could add something of help to you.

Good luck

Cheers

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