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It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

(OP)
Example:
It was decided to leave the brick in place.

(Leave aside for now debates on whether the passive voice is evil and to be avoided.)

The example above feels ungrammatical, but I can't find anything on it.  

To me, the passive and infinitive can't be combined like that.  It would need to be one of these:
"It was decided that the brick would be left in place."
"It was decided that we would leave the brick in place."
"We decided to leave the brick in place."

Without a real subject, I somehow can't allow the infinitive either.

I know there are plenty of examples of the usage I object to, but is there a grammar cite anywhere that agrees with me?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

I think the issue is not of grammar, but of outlook. I'm not sure what the correct terminology is to describe what I am trying to say, but it is like that glass is half empty, glass is half full expression. They are all correct it just depends on how you look at it.

Wes C.

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

(OP)
No, it's a matter of grammar--but whose grammar?  In my idiolect, that construction is bad.  It's almost as bad as "Dog the to store the walked."  It violates whatever set of rules I carry around in my head that govern which sentence structures do or do not emerge from my mouth or fingers.

The question is, is this an idiosyncracy all my own, or is there some standard basis for it?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

I don't know how you can put your examples out there and then ask to leave aside the passive/active debate.

The sentance, as first written, is wimpy and avoids taking responsibility.  It's like farting in an elevator with only one other person there with you and pretending you didn't do it!  Take the responsibility and admit to the bean burrito for lunch.

The last choice is the best choice.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

(OP)
The last choice is definitely the best choice.

However, I'm fixing someone else's paper right now and I don't know who the agent of "it was planned to" is.  (For now I've settled for a note saying, "By whom?" and I hope they do the right thing; I'd prefer to be able to offer a correction.)

But there's a difference between lousy writing and ungrammatical writing--plenty of awful writing is perfectly grammatical.  I agree the example sentence is lousy writing--but it is ungrammatical to anyone but me?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

I think the grammar problem is the word "it" has no clear antecedent.  Who is "it"? The "we decided" is best because then you know who decided.  This site refers to this as an "indefinite reference".

http://www.mun.ca/writingcentre/pronouns.shtml under section "D".

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

I like to write in terms of ownership, always asking myself "Who's baby is that?"  If its mine (or my group's), I make that ownership clear in my message.

Attributing actions (or worse, "inactions") to a non-entity smacks of "excusism", which I despise.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

(OP)
UcfSE--the missing antecedent of "it" doesn't help explain why "It was decided that the brick should stay in place" seems merely weaselly but not grammatically incorrect.

I think I'll go bother some linguists about this.  I assume none of y'all want to hear what I find out...

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

Do the phrases "it was decided" and "a decision was made" mean the same thing?  If they do, then the sentence is probably correct but awkward.  

Would you consider the sentence "Frank was decided to leave the brick in place" to be correct?  What about "her pleas decided him to help" (that one is straight from m-w.com)?

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

Leaving aside the passive/active and who made the decision questions, I don't think there's anything wrong with combining the passive and the infinitive. I think it might be your own idiosyncrancy, but I'd be interested to know if I'm wrong - can you report back what your linguists have to say?

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

I dislike the sentence for two reasons, although neither is a grammatical violation.

The first reason is that I don't like using infinitive phrases as predicate objects in passive voice.  The second reason is that I don't like using the pronoun 'it' when its antecedent is the implied object of the verb.  Nevertheless, both of these constructs are grammatically valid.

This particular sentence is for me a double whammy because the implied antecedent of 'it' is an infitive phrase in passive voice.

I detest the sentence, but in all honesty, I cannot claim it violates any rule of grammar.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

(OP)
[IvyMike]Do the phrases "it was decided" and "a decision was made" mean the same thing?

To me they aren't the same.

[IvyMike]Would you consider the sentence "Frank was decided to leave the brick in place" to be correct?  

Oh hell no.  Well, wait.  Not if that's a passive.  But if it's a participle or adjective, meaning something like "determined" or "hell-bent", it's okay, but that's a grammatically different function from the "it was decided" case.

[IvyMike]What about "her pleas decided him to help" (that one is straight from m-w.com)?

That is clearly a sign of the coming apocalypse.  I can handle with only minor qualms "decide" as a transitive verb with that meaning, but not with an infinitive object.  (A prepositional phrase would be ok--"Your argument has decided me on this question.")

Then there's "It was planned to..."  That to me is exactly as bad, no worse and no better, than "It was decided to..."  There's no usage of "plan", that I know of, equivalent to your m-w cite for "decide".  ("The hurricane planned me to evacuate"??)  So there should be more people who can say "It was decided to..." than "It was planned to..."  Hard to survey this group on this topic since y'all seem pretty unified on hating the whole agentless thang anyway, but maybe you could put your weasel hats on?


[CajunCenturion]The first reason is that I don't like using infinitive phrases as predicate objects in passive voice.  The second reason is that I don't like using the pronoun 'it' when its antecedent is the implied object of the verb.  Nevertheless, both of these constructs are grammatically valid.

Actually, for you they aren't grammatically valid.  Those are grammatical arguments you're making.


Anyway I'll report back when I hear from the pros.  (Not to be confused with the prose.)

Hg, ex-pro but never a syntactician

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

To me they aren't the same.
Can you explain the difference in meaning?  Is it literal, or just the impression you get?

But if it's a participle or adjective, meaning something like "determined" or "hell-bent", it's okay, but that's a grammatically different function from the "it was decided" case.

But if it's grammatically correct and means something other than what the writer intended, it's still grammatically correct.  I almost responded to your original post with "Sounds like cousin It was pretty determined to leave that brick" but I didn't think anyone would get it.





RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

(OP)
Difference between "it was decided" and "a decision was made" is that they're grammatically completely different (to me, anyway), just like "walked" and "walking" aren't the same.

"But if it's grammatically correct and means something other than what the writer intended, it's still grammatically correct."

Yes and no.  My question isn't whether there's some completely different construal of the words to make sense of it, but whether the grammatical functions as assigned by the writer are correct.  To a lot of people, they are.  To me they clearly aren't but I'm wondering whether that's just my own meshigas.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: It was planned/decided to [verb phrase]

I have to wonder if we are all on the same page with respect to grammar, semantics, and style.

I see nothing wrong with the original sentence from a grammatical perspective, nor do I see nothing wrong from a semantic perspective.  However, from a position of style, it is for me, not a valid option.

Good Luck
--------------
As a circle of light increases so does the circumference of darkness around it. - Albert Einstein

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