×
INTELLIGENT WORK FORUMS
FOR ENGINEERING PROFESSIONALS

Log In

Come Join Us!

Are you an
Engineering professional?
Join Eng-Tips Forums!
  • Talk With Other Members
  • Be Notified Of Responses
    To Your Posts
  • Keyword Search
  • One-Click Access To Your
    Favorite Forums
  • Automated Signatures
    On Your Posts
  • Best Of All, It's Free!
  • Students Click Here

*Eng-Tips's functionality depends on members receiving e-mail. By joining you are opting in to receive e-mail.

Posting Guidelines

Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden.

Students Click Here

Jobs

Going the extra mile down a dead end road
28

Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Going the extra mile down a dead end road

(OP)
I was just wondering how common this is in the rest of the work world. I have always and will always be an employee that believes that hard work pays off but I am starting to wonder. In my younger years, I worked at several manual labor/blue collar jobs. I found that the harder I worked the more I was rewarded. It may have been a pay raise, and extra day off, or more responsibility. I have since moved on to the "white collar" office world of software development and automation integration. I absolutely love the work but I am becoming less confident that there is a "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow". I started doing this work about eight years ago and I attacked it like every other job I have ever had. I would put in extra hours, bring work home, help other that fell behind etc. In my diluted world, I figured this would pay off. When I was not trying to play catch up because the project manager overlooked this or the saleman promised this, I worked to find, develop, and test ways we could streamline our engineering processes to reduce project development times. I was able to create and prove a dozen different design process improvements, some took years to implement and yet other are sitting in the starting block waiting to go. Enough history, now for the question. I recieved little, if any rewards for my hard work. I may have had a couple of "that a boy"s but for the most part the project managers and sales people became more slack in there jobs knowing that I would pick up the slack. Basically, my reward for hard work was more of other peoples work. The company is small, so I know that plays a part in things but I think this is beyond acceptable. I know some of you will say I should look for a new job, and I am. I am reluctant to move because the engineering group is a great group and they all get about the same treatment as I get. How do you correct this? Are there other people getting the same treatment in other places? I am going to get this were ever I go? Does any one know the winning lotto numbers?

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

The same here. I used to get promoted and big raises. Since our major management change a few years ago, nothing. I work harder now, more/bigger projects, not a raise in 3 years. The employees that we see standing around offices talking or hanging around outside several times a day smoking are the one getting promoted to managers! Managers of what... the rest of us don't know.
I was told by my own mangager that everyone loves me doing what I'm doing and they don't want me in another position.
Sorry, but this is a sore area for me.

Chris
Sr. Mechanical Designer, CAD
SolidWorks 05 SP3.1 / PDMWorks 05
ctopher's home site (updated 06-21-05)
FAQ559-1100
FAQ559-716

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

3
There is a simple but largely open-ended answer to this.  You need to set aside you belief in what should pay off, and dig deep to find what actually does pay off.  Only you are in a position to examine the culture of your workplace and make this determination.

I could be the world's greatest underachiever, if I could just learn to apply myself.
http://www.EsoxRepublic.com-SolidWorks API VB programming help

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Quote (Foada):

Basically, my reward for hard work was more of other peoples work.

A human resources fable...

A story imparted to me by a close friend with half a lifetime in HR mediation...

A man is driving a wagon pulled by two horses across a desert.  One horse always works hard, one is lazy and does next to nothing no matter what.

The wagon is crossing a river and is getting stuck.  The man whips the two horses to get them to pull harder.  He sees that the hard working horse responds by pulling harder, while the lazy horse doesn't react at all.  The man the decides only to whip the horse that responds...

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

(OP)
Tick, I have been taking the "self pride" payoff for a long time, it is been my only reward. I guess what I was asking, was if I find a different job will "self pride" be my only payoff. If this problem is a virus running rabid every where, I won't even pursue a different job. If the possiblity for some sort of "business" reward is possible, I may consider looking for a new job.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

(OP)
Would it be alright to take the lazy horse out behind the stable and give him a good beat down? Is survival of the fittest defined as carrying the weak to promote laziness?

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

2
In every work environment there is going to be one that works the hardest, one that is the laziest and a bunch of people in between.

The difference is how people get rewarded for their work, because as you approach the being harder working person, you ALWAYS carry more of the lazier (wich may not be the correct word... but) persons load.

Wes C.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

2
Foada,

I've been in the same boat as you, so here are a few ideas from me,

1) Be "sick" for a week and don't show up to work, make sure that there are plenty of important projects nearing completion when you do this. Everyone else will realise how much you are worth when you're not around to hold their hand.

2) Showcase your work, point out a problem that you found to your boss and tell him that you've solved it (make sure it's not a problem that your boss has created through his ineptitude, do those quietly)

3) Diplomatically decline to do the lazy people's work.

4) Make/ask other people do their own work or any extra work you have and follow up to make sure its being done.

5) Make this workload seem effortless especially when your boss or his lackeys are present, people will marvel that you do so much work so easily, while they can't even do what little they have.

I have some more but I can't remember them, ideally you want to show that you're providing a valuable service. In a way you already have some power b/c it seems like they would fall apart without you, only they don't know it, make sure they do.

Good luck

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Foada,

One more thing, the showcasing part of my previous post only applies to your boss is he is not insecure. Otherwise he might think you're trying to usurp him. In that case make it look like it's all his idea, and make sure that you don't come out as looking better than him. You'll know if he's insecure when tries to sweep your work under the rug.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

when all else fails, take the clients and all the good people, and start your own company!

Wes C.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

2
Your strong work ethic has apparently cemented your position in the company so that you are now too valuable to promote. Your boss would rather promote those around you because he realizes that if he loses you, he will not be able to easily replace you. Your work ethic is a reflection of your internal value system, and I would certainly value you as an employee, as I'm sure your boss probably does. But this approach can have unforseen repercussions. By working too effectively in your job you may actually compromise your long term career goals, and I have seen this produce detrimental effects before. If you choose to accept a position at another company, it is likely that you will find yourself in the same boat again unless you alter the way in which you approach your job.

Is it proper or ethical for you to take on the unassigned work of those around you? If so, then what are they paying these other people for? Has anyone done this for you? Would you expect them to?


Maui

Constants aren't; variables won't.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Distinguish between the appreciative folks and the blood-sucking vultures who are only looking to make their own job easier.  There is always a ready supply of fellow workers willing to take advantage of such generosity.  Cynical, yes, but the truth.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

2
If he had allowed implentation of a substantial number of your process improvements, your manager would be obliged to reduce the size of his staff, or risk having an even bigger and more noticeable crowd hanging around the water cooler.

No manager will voluntarily reduce his number of "direct reports", because that number is a badge of rank among managers.

You need to start introducing inefficiencies.

 

No one is born a cynic; it takes decades of conditioning.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

2
I don't know your company's structure or how you are rated, but the idea of taking time off to proove something probably wont give the results you want.  I also woulnd't worry about trying to influence people in general about what they think of you.

Employers wait for that once a year review to tell you what they think; tell you where you need improvement.  Some use it to try to put you in the place they desire. From my experience this is the only time they direct thier full attention to that employee.

I once asked a long timer how raises went in the plant; he said most people don't get raises but he got one every year.  He would document everything he did for the year and went into the review with a stack of paper and turned it into him telling them what he did.

I don't suggest to anybody that they document everything, because that is all you would wind up doing.  But keeping tabs on important work and having some sort of report for the review would be a good idea.  This is where you need to tell them that you are getting more work from these other people.  I would also continue to point out the raise in cost of living.

The basics of work for me is that the day to day goes good, I like it. If the day to day is always a pain or I just don't want to go to work, then a change is needed.  If I don't like the salary coming into a job, then I don't take the job, some companies only use raises to keep employees from leaving.

Once I worked at a place that changed thier review/raise policy to where 10-20% of employees got no raise, a large portion got 1-3% raise, and about 4 people got 5-7% raise.  Well, I did very well that year and got the 7% and with the structure of that company it got out, everybody knew.  And that was the start of a long process of being forced out of a job.

Anyways, alot of people get into this once a year review slump, they stew all year and have high expectations to expose this or get rewarded, sadly most just get upset.  The rewards of work will be best if it's all internal to oneself.  If you are waiting for those extraneous things, you might wind up doing just that; waiting.

_______________________________________
Feeling frisky.........
www.tailofthedragon.com

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

5
I had a job once that was killing me.  I got to work at 5 am, left at 6 pm, worked from home after the kids were in bed, worked every weekend.  One day my boss walked in with another full-time project.  I showed him my current list and asked "what of this do you want me to stop doing?".  His answer was "we have nights and we have weekends".

That day I joined a health club.  For the next year I carefully worked my best for 40 hours a week and then went to the club.  I stopped working from home.  I got to work at the normal starting time.  Took exactly 45 minutes for lunch (away from my desk).  I never came in on weekends.

At the end of the year I was exactly as far behind as I was at the beginnning, but my wife and kids were a lot happier.  My raise and rating that year were as good as I ever got with that company.  My cynical conclusion is "It is not important what you do, it is important what you are seen doing".  

When I had been working 90 hours a week, about half the time I was the only one around and when the projects just kept being completed on-time, management thought I didn't have enough work.  When my inbox overflowed a little, the projects moved down the hall.

David

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

This is why I'll never again work as anything but a consultant. The cause-and-effect relationship is far too weak in an office, working for somebody else.

You should start your own business.

14159

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

zdas04,

Could not agree more. A star for you.
Having said that, I am at work now while everyone else is at home.  But I will go soon.  The main reason for me being here is I was given another task that could not be squeezed into the day, so it is getting chipped away at slowly on paid overtime once a week or so.

As for the boss knowing what is going on:
Currently my boss attempts (fairly consistanty too) to have monthly reviews of how things are going (using a one page sheet for consistancy) with each of his 25 odd staff.  The company has (the current "in thing") a system for a formal 6 month review and a 12 month review.  Naturally the 12 monthly is the only one that consists of a pay scale review, but at least you get a chance to let him know regularly of work load, achievements and why some tasks are not being completed in time etc.  This means he does not get a big suprise, but lets us not get such a hard and memorable (read: in your pay) kick in the pants.

ASM

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Managers don't fix problems that they don't know about. I've had many jobs where others around me didn't pull their weight and I picked up that slack. Work an honest days work and STOP there. If work starts to pile up, the boss will come around looking to "solve" the problem as to why the work isn't getting completed like it used to. At this time your "smart" boss will access the situation and realize that you are, and always have been a good worker and the problem will solve itself. The slacker will realize that things aren't getting done and the boss is breathing down their backs. Usually the slacker will start working because they fear losing their jobs.
I've seen too many people who pegion hole themselves into a position because they were too good at the job. If you are looking to move around you need to deversify your skills and not specialize in anything.  

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

4
A quote from somewhere along the line:

"Don't be irreplaceable. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted."

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

It's unfortunate that mediocrity is the order of the day in most places.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Measure of success = your pay / your performance

Underperformer can still be successful in his career if he is paid a lot.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

"It's unfortunate that mediocrity is the order of the day in most places."

Unfortunate for society, but not unfortunate for us

If I had to compete with only Type "A" geniuses, I'd have to work a whole lot harder and spend less time here

TTFN



RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

whyun,

That is such a known formula.  Those who don't perform get promoted out of the critical jobs.

I once recieved the following email extract that I am sure most have seen before but it is worth seeing again

Dilbert's "Salary Theorem" states that "Engineers and Scientists can
never earn as much as Business Executives and Sales People."

This theorem can now be supported by a mathematical equation based on
 the following two postulates:
 
                  1. Knowledge is Power.
                  2. Time is Money.
 
                  As every engineer knows:
                  Power = Work / Time
 
                  Since:
                  Knowledge = Power
                  Time = Money
 
                  It follows that:
                  Knowledge = Work/Money.
 
                  Solving for Money, we get:
                  Money = Work / Knowledge.
 
      Thus, as Knowledge approaches zero,
      Money approaches infinity, regardless
      of the amount of work done.
 
      Conclusion: The less you know, the more you make.
 

Regards,
ASM

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Foada,

There are 3 things for a good work ethic:
#1 Be a teacher.
#2 Be a worker.
#3 Be a student.

You have to train someone to fill your position, do your work while you train, and also learn about the position that you are trying to achieve. I worked for a company 7 years. Saved themm from bankruptcy 2x. I was the shop foreman. I turned in a three week notice and I received my walking papers. Sometimes you will not be appreciated. Don't lose hope there is the right company out there. I found one.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

IRStuff,
It depends on how the geniuses market themselves to the bosses. People like that are the engine of a company, they keep it running. Steering is up to bosses, who may or may not steer it right or even bother to maintain the engine.
In cases like that use their input to further your cause, learn to appreciate their value and then when you become the boss you know which part of the engine needs maintaining.

In other words its not a reason to work harder to compete, its a reason to make your work look better. Once you get the promotion, don't forget who helped you get it.

It sounds like foada's boss realises his value but abuses this knowledge to get more work done. All his boss is creating is a disgruntled employee, one who could possibly cripple the company WHEN he leaves. All the more reason to keep Foada happy.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

2
I've enjoyed this chain and thought I'd chime in. I've worked at three different companies over the past 5 years in senior engineering/project management positions, all with different types of managers and have left each time by my own decision. I now have a low stress job with decent pay in a great location.

The following things have worked for me, individual results may vary:

1)Find the right company to work for - decide exactly what it is you want to do and what you're good at, be open-minded
2)Demonstrate that you posess the skills for the next higher position to the right people in management; when it comes to getting promoted, these are the only ones that really matter
3)Understand your manager's hot buttons and focus your efforts to avoid them - they want people they can trust in the "club"
4) Present problems and solutions to your boss (not just problems)
5) Stay away from small companies; if you're working for the owner don't expect to get promoted.
6) Let your boss know that you're not content with what you're doing and that you don't expect to be doing it forever; ask them to help you develop a career plan.
7) Get professional certifications (i.e. PE, CPM, etc)
8) Learn cost and project management software; no one likes it (almost nobody) but it's a must for managers
9) Write articles for publications and conferences
10) Make and effort to bring work to your company, you don't have to actually be successful at it but your boss needs to know that your concerned about the company's profits - in big companies all that matters is shareholder value.
11) Don't be cynical about a position/company - if you don't like it and you're sure the job/company isn't for you - move on, there are plenty of jobs out there; be careful to not burn bridges.
12) MOST IMPORTANTLY - Always Remember: PEOPLE DO THINGS FOR THEIR REASONS, NOT FOR YOURS.   

This may hurt some egos out there, but good engineers are not that hard to come by, good engineers who are good with clients, and managing people and projects are - don't expect to be promoted just because you can push buttons on a calculator or are a CAD wizard.  

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Star for you joemock!

Particularly for point #2 and #6.  It's kind of simple and obvious, but I have seen many people complaining about their situation without taking step ONE in trying to attain it. If you want a promotion or a raise, make sure you ASK FOR IT.  Most companies aren't in the handout business. You'll end up waiting forever.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

(OP)
Sorry it took to long to respond, I was busy putting out a half a dozen fires. I would like to thank everyone for their input. I am glad to see that I am not alone on this. I guess that is what I was afraid of. I guess I will just keep toughing it out until I can get my own consulting work off the ground. Thanks again for the input.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

My personal favourite is that "when you reach the epitomy of your inconpetence they will promote you".

Sadly if you are invaluable or irreplaceable you will remain because you are just that.

The beauty of the system is each succesive Manager just has to be no more incompetant than the one he replaces.  Kind of like raising the bar in the downward direction!

Enjoy what you do and the rest falls into place!

Al

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Unfortunately, especially in engineering, management(which used to be a means to lead a group to a solution) is now about, well, management. It has become an end product. We ile status reports attend team meetings, project earned value wile we improve document flow so all the stake holders are informed in real time. The only thing we don't do is engineering and design. Quite frankly, many (certianly not all) managers, given a pad and pencil, could not engineer a thing. So they have no real appreataiton for what you do, but they know that if you start managing who will do all the work?
I once worked for a firm where it was tough to get a promotion, so a lot of guys(me included) left. When we gave our notice, we were offered what ever we wanted (to an extent) to stay. I am not sugessting you bluff them by giving notice, but if you grumble a little and suggest thee may be a better life out there, maybe sombody will do something. If they don't, you have a pretty good idea where you stand.
 

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

In recent days some of the wisdom I've soaked up in this thread spilled out. Somehow I found myself thinking aloud, to a manager, that management are merely an overhead to enable the rest of us to do our jobs, and since industry normally strives to reduce its overheads, wasn't it time they awarded themselves a pay cut and thinned their numbers down?

It's just another black mark in my big book of black marks... I'll need a library to house all these books by the time I retire!

----------------------------------

One day my ship will come in.
But with my luck, I'll be at the airport!

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Scotty, I got a really big black mark in volume 9 of my "Big Book of Black Marks" when I suggested to my boss that "Managers are a lot like a funnel over the employee's head--the good ones turn it with the small side up so that most of the BS is kept off my head, you on the other hand turn it with the big side up so it becomes a BS concentrator and dumps more than my fair share of crap on my head.  STOP IT".

Needless to say, that wasn't a warm, fuzzy, or (fortunately) long-lasting relationship.  He presented one of my projects at a senior-managers meeting and when he couldn't explain any of the details on my slides (that he hadn't reviewed before the meeting or told me he was going to use) he called me on the speaker phone to answer the tough questions.  The next week he was back to being an individual contributor.  Senior management saw what an ineffective slime he really was and wondered out loud why he even had a job.  

David

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Isn’t it strange how no one on here seems to see themselves as over paid, lazy, incompetent or generally not worthy of the position they hold or the salary they get whilst many see those above, below or equal to them as such?

Can someone please explain how that works?

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

We're just better than the 'riff-raff' who don't read these posts. Just plain better........

Oh and all people shift blame, it just depends on who defends themselves better.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Adusted for the cost of living, i am making less than when I started out of college.  I notice many job adds advertising double what I am making.  I just don't want to start over on vacation time right now since I get 4.5 weeks off each year.  With a 2.5 year old, and a newborn at home, the time off is worth it now but the $$$ will soon out weigh that.

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

ajack1--it works like this:
People who are getting more than they deserve have nothing to complain about, hence they don't hang out here.

Actually I do think I get away with being lazy (though neither overpaid nor unworthy).  This doesn't bother me, because lazy and all, I do a hell of a lot better job than the three guys who all shared my current job when I first got here.  I figure I have a "burn and coast" technique that leads to greater overall efficiency.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines:  FAQ731-376

RE: Going the extra mile down a dead end road

Another vote here for lazy but effective.

As one of our managers once said, if you can get Greg to pay attention to your problem for two hours then he'll probably fix it.

I think he was being nice, but maybe not.

I find after 4 hours of analytical work my head tends to explode, so I have to goof off for at least an hour, or more usually go to the pub. And I usually resist doing anything technical in the last hour before I go to bed, otherwise the (internal) computer will be humming away all night and I won't get any sleep.




Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

Red Flag This Post

Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework.

Red Flag Submitted

Thank you for helping keep Eng-Tips Forums free from inappropriate posts.
The Eng-Tips staff will check this out and take appropriate action.

Reply To This Thread

Posting in the Eng-Tips forums is a member-only feature.

Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members!


Resources