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Natural gas for diesel engine????

Natural gas for diesel engine????

Natural gas for diesel engine????

(OP)
May be yuo can help me to get information wher can I bay  HPDI of natural gas  for truck whis diesel engine?!!!

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

HPDI parts are available if you buy a cummins Westport system.

I built some DI cng parts a decade ago using solenoids...  Forget solenoids, the turndown is inadequate and closing bounce is another issue aside from tip coking due to aerosols and fuel with >-50 dew point fuel.  

The best path is using magnetostrictive actuated common rail and constant temp glow plugs.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I am going to start development of a system to provide supplementary cng for diesels.  I already have a kit to do it for lp.  It will use a regulator that requires vacuum to open it, and the fuel will go in before the turbo.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

What are your goals?

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Sorry for the slow response, I've been really busy and haven't had a chance to get on the forum.  Anyway, I want cheap fuel!  I have a gas well and even though I'll have to get a compressor, the gas itself is free.  I think there is a small market for a system like this for people that either have their own wells or can get cng cheap.  A company in Canada called FuelMaker has a residential compressor that will pull from the low pressure house line and compress it to 3600 psi.  It does an equivalent gallon/hr, meaning around 125 cu ft/hr.  The bad news is that it is $5100, so it is a long term payoff.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I have a 12 yr old fuel maker that has seen better days but it works.  I drove a few cng vehicles for a decade and mostly refueled with the fuel maker.  It was not less costly when the fuel, electricity, machine and maintenance cost were added up but it facilitated the demonstration and practice what you preach type work that I used handle.  There are/were a lot of cng fumigation systems out there but they dont seem to offer enough return on investment over a short enough time to be worth it..  

As for HPDI, the best known system on the open market out there is installed on the Cummins Westport ISX.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Hi-

     Have you tested to see what species are present in your natural gas?  Some natural gas wells produce gas with high sulfur content.  The sulfur would be an issue for engine catalysts and maybe some other components.

     Honda is selectively marketing a CNG car for the California market in the US.

     The drivers  rent  a fuel compression system called PHIL  for  30 to  80  US  dollars per month.   I don't know what the purchase price of the PHIL system would be.

     
      
j2bprometheus@aol.com

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I haven't had the gas checked, but we heat our house with two ventless heaters and haven't noticed any sulfur.  I worked up the numbers a few years ago, and I figured that the first 12K gallons equivalent of cng would cost me around 49¢/gal.  That took into consideration the $5000 cost of the FuelMaker, about 10¢/gal of electric to run it, and 10¢/gal rebuild cost for the compressor.  They say that every 4K gallons, the compressor has to be rebuilt, and at the time it was $400 to get that done.  I would initially buy the gas, they are charging $1.99/gal locally.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

The information I recall is every 2000 hours the compression end needs an overhaul, and the price was closer to $2000 USD.  I think the TBO has been extended a bit since (late 90's).  The total cost per mile for the end user product including cost of fuel, amortized cost of the Phil fuel maker, electicity for compression and whatever road use taxes you have to pay is very close to the cost of gasoline, maybe slightly cheaper.  Dont look for the costs you are estimating, they dont exist.  Somewhere you will have to calculate the cost of the vehicle fuel system too, they aren't free or cheap for that matter.
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I'll look into it again.  If it really is $2K to rebuild every 2K hours, I don't see how they would ever sell one.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

When my very earlt generation fuelmaker shut itself down for a sevice interval I removed the Sulzer compressor head from the motor and fedexed it to the factory and they had it back the same week.  Initially there was a short interval but it was lenthened for later models than mine.  The rebuild was several hubdred, not thousands.  It still did not make economic sense for me.  It does make sense from a convenience perspective though..  Did not have to make an additional stop out of my way for fuel, the stop at home was enough.  I added a pair of steel 11GGE tanks to the system and a priority valve with regulator.  I plumbed the FM to the tanks via NGV1 connector.  Initally got a partial fast fill then the FM would top off the vehicle before dumping back to the storage by the machine.  Rarely had lack of range issues with that setup.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I installed supplementary cng to my Duramax diesel this week.  I installed a weaker spring in the regulator so that it would pull more gas than with lp.  It runs just the same as with lp, but is a bit more detonation resistant, which is to be expected since it is higher octane.  I installed a 10 gal tank.  I only have about 40 miles since install, so I will be collecting data on fuel consumption rates as time goes on.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Got a pyrometeter hooked up yet?

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

No pyrometer installed yet, but at least I have one now.  That is next on the list.  I suspect that the egts will be lower at low load than straight #2, but higher at heavy load than with only #2.  This is simply because of more power being produced because of extra fuel.  Hopefully I'll find out soon.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

If you can regulate the min delivery rate then idle fueling is no problem.  Good luck.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Just to clarify any misconceptions about Cummins Westport and HPDI, the Westport HPDI system is still in development and none have been sold commercially.  Even when they are commercial it will not be something you can retrofit in your backyard.
Cummins Westport, a joint venture between Cummins and Westport, was restructured at the beginning of 2004 and is currently developing and marketing spark-ignited engines only.
For more information visit the Westport and Cummins Westport websites, www.westport.com and www.cumminswestport.com respectively.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Can anyone tell me what the disadvantages of combined fuel systems are. Those are the systems where the gas, natural or propane is introduced into the intake manifold at low pressure with a simple valve and just enough diesel is injected to "Light the fire"?

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Waross-
       
       Caterpillar has a businesss venture with a company that sells kits like the one you describe.    The company used to be called "Clean Air Partners"  (they have changed names a couple of times so I am not certain what their name is now).
 

       NOX emissions are lower than for a typical diesel but higher than for a good spark ignition natural gas engine.


       Maybe someone who owns such a system can give more info?

j2bprometheus

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I have my truck set up to run lp and cng at the moment.  The disadvanges are as follows:
You lose space because of another tank.  
You have to get fuel two places instead of one.
If you hotrod, you better modify the tranny or you will slip clutches.

The advantages are:
Cleaner oil.
Better range on #2.
Quieter operation.
Lower emissions.
More power.

I took my first trip today with supplemental cng.  I drove 220 miles and used a bit over 10 GGE.  I'm not sure how much #2 I used, it was around 1/8 tank.  I need to run it alot more to get some good numbers.  It appears to be giving me about the same #2 consumption as w/lp.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

I have now logged over 750 miles using supplemental cng.  I am not getting as good of diesel mileage as I do with lp.  I need to modify the regulator to enable more flow.  I will be changing the first stage regulator spring tomorrow to bring the pressure up.  I'll also verify that I have at least 100 psi from the high pressure regulator.  It runs really nice, I just want to use more gas and less diesel.  The small tank is a pain.  Only carrying 10 gal gasoline equivalent is nothing like my 100 gal lp tank.  I'm used to serious range.  I filled up with cng at one place, they didn't even charge me for the fuel.   

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Marc;
You state that you get lower emissions, what verifiable tests have you done?  It appears that all the adjustments you have performed are by the seat of the pants.  This is fine for establishing a baseline, but in order to provide repeatable results, you need to perform verifiable testing with a third party.
Tossing in a hydrocarbon fuel on top of a hydrocarbon fuel produces hydrocarbon emissions.  Add in the fact that one of the fuels is a combustion ignition fuel with excess air and we have a NOx producer.
Please understand that I am in no way against a dual fuel application, but lets see the results on one that produces repeatable results.
Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

Franz,
You are right, I haven't actually done any emission testing.  I am basing some of my statements on what I have observed, and some on what results others have seen.  The engine only runs about half the boost while adding a gaseous fuel that it runs while on #2. I theorize that this is because more (or all) of the available O2 is being consumed rather than just what is needed to burn the #2.  This means that much less air is being pumped through the engine for the same power output.  One look at the oil will tell you that the combustion has to be cleaner than the average diesel.  I use a bypass filter and have never changed the oil, I get it analyzed periodically.  It now has 48K on it and the last analysis showed only a trace of soot.  I have run lp, lots of it, since the truck had 400 miles on it.  I have used at least 1 gal of lp to 1 gal of #2 since the beginning, and for the last 20K miles it has been at least 2 gal lp to 1 gal #2.  I look forward to some more miles with the cng, but don't plan to use it long term.  Today I raised the output of the high pressure regulator from 150 to 200 psi, and the first stage of the low pressure reg from 1.5 to 3 psi.  We'll see what the next roadtrip gives me for mileage.  I wish I had better ways to quantify things, but I have to work with what I've got.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

i know of a fuel that is free

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

1mechanic

So what.

What is your intended contribution to this forum to date, or in the near future?

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

So do I.  All I have to do is recover it, make it in usable form, store it somewhere, find some way to distribute it, license and certify it, ensure that it works all the time, and protect it.

Yep, doesnt cost me a penny.  

You wouldnt be any way connected to the Biomass experts?

Franz

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

RE: Natural gas for diesel engine????

easy solution, 30% diesel 70% gas.
almost no rebuild needed for fuel system.   a easy injection system just before inatke and piggy back the system can make the diesel very cheap.
and no spark plugs needed.

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